SEC charges Musk with Fraud!

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jdb
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by jdb » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:22 am

typical.investor wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:25 pm
susze wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:17 pm
TomCat96 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:56 pm
jdb wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:58 pm
Think about it though. Tucker was selling accessories for cars that hadn't been built yet. Doing so would let you bypass the rule that veterans got first dibs on new cars which there was a waiting list for. Can't you see how that might be viewed as a questionable business practice?

In any case, the prototypes got bad reviews for things like not being able to go in reverse.


Is that true? The Tucker could not go in reverse? Would have been perfect car for my wife, she has never mastered backing up. I tell her her drivers license should be restricted to forward motion only. Once she hit our daughters car when she was backing up in our driveway. Even the State Farm rep, which insured both cars, laughed when I told her about the double claim. So there would have been at least one customer currently for the Tucker. Thanks for the chuckle.

typical.investor
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by typical.investor » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:56 am

jdb wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:22 am
typical.investor wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:25 pm
susze wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:17 pm
TomCat96 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:56 pm
jdb wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:58 pm
Think about it though. Tucker was selling accessories for cars that hadn't been built yet. Doing so would let you bypass the rule that veterans got first dibs on new cars which there was a waiting list for. Can't you see how that might be viewed as a questionable business practice?

In any case, the prototypes got bad reviews for things like not being able to go in reverse.


Is that true? The Tucker could not go in reverse? Would have been perfect car for my wife, she has never mastered backing up. I tell her her drivers license should be restricted to forward motion only. Once she hit our daughters car when she was backing up in our driveway. Even the State Farm rep, which insured both cars, laughed when I told her about the double claim. So there would have been at least one customer currently for the Tucker. Thanks for the chuckle.
Just the prototype I think, but apparently it made for bad press.

In any case, what does your wife drive. Backup cameras are quite useful!!!!

I assume your daughter will never let your wife forget it! That’s a classic - double claim!

harikaried
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by harikaried » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:28 pm

The market reaction seems to indicate the the potential outcome of SEC barring Elon Musk from both officer and director positions was significantly worse than the settlement outcome of his resigning from chairman of the board. Does this mean the market believes that Tesla is potentially is in a better position with Elon Musk switching to a non-chair board position and delegating those chair responsibilities to someone else?

iamlucky13
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:33 pm

Wow! That was fast.

Thursday lawsuit. Saturday settlement.

The fine was about what I expected - trivially small (about 3 days worth of Tesla's cash burn each from Tesla and Musk). Musk can't be chairman for 3 years, but it sounds like he can still be on the board, and remain CEO, if I understand the terms right.

And I guess they're taking away his Twitter login?

"Tesla will...put in place additional controls and procedures to oversee Musk’s communications"

It looks like Tesla is not going to become the first company to publish a 10-Q via a social media platform afterall.

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ray.james
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by ray.james » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:48 pm

80,000 cars manufactured in current quarter. They are struggling to deliver them. Whatever one thinks of Tesla that is an impressive number. I know a few who are still waiting to get an email. For reference, Mercedes sells 90K in a quarter. BMW 70-75 and Audi 50K.

I hope, Elon will keep this behind and works on the cashflow. The real value of Tesla is in Energy storage and solar. While I am not a individual shareholder, I hope he /his companies succeed.
When in doubt, http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939

harikaried
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by harikaried » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:59 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:33 pm
The fine was about what I expected - trivially small (about 3 days worth of Tesla's cash burn each from Tesla and Musk)
It sounds like Elon Musk is paying both sides of the fine:
A Tesla spokesman said that Mr. Musk, a billionaire, would be buying $20 million in Tesla stock. The amount of stock being bought by Mr. Musk matches the penalty the company has to pay under the settlement, which was filed in federal court in Manhattan.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/29/busi ... ement.html

Earlier this year he bought $25 million additional stock adding to his existing ~19% of shares, so the additional shares to cover the fine would be maybe an increase of 0.2% of his existing holdings?

iamlucky13
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:53 pm

ray.james wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:48 pm
80,000 cars manufactured in current quarter. They are struggling to deliver them. Whatever one thinks of Tesla that is an impressive number. I know a few who are still waiting to get an email. For reference, Mercedes sells 90K in a quarter. BMW 70-75 and Audi 50K.

I hope, Elon will keep this behind and works on the cashflow. The real value of Tesla is in Energy storage and solar. While I am not a individual shareholder, I hope he /his companies succeed.
I think you're comparing US-only sales for the others to global production for Tesla. It's also an outside estimate, I guess. From what I'm seeing, the official numbers are planned to be released at the end of the day, but the news organizations are publishing guesses only hours ahead of the actual numbers in their usual desperate attempts to get clicks.

I didn't check the others, but a couple searches indicate BMW reported 306,000 US sales and 2.5 million global sales in 2017.

That said, it's progress - 2100 combined Model S and X produced per week, and about 4100 Model 3's per week, relative to a goal of 6,000 per week, if I remember right.

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ray.james
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by ray.james » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:45 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:53 pm
ray.james wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:48 pm
80,000 cars manufactured in current quarter. They are struggling to deliver them. Whatever one thinks of Tesla that is an impressive number. I know a few who are still waiting to get an email. For reference, Mercedes sells 90K in a quarter. BMW 70-75 and Audi 50K.

I hope, Elon will keep this behind and works on the cashflow. The real value of Tesla is in Energy storage and solar. While I am not a individual shareholder, I hope he /his companies succeed.
I think you're comparing US-only sales for the others to global production for Tesla. It's also an outside estimate, I guess. From what I'm seeing, the official numbers are planned to be released at the end of the day, but the news organizations are publishing guesses only hours ahead of the actual numbers in their usual desperate attempts to get clicks.

I didn't check the others, but a couple searches indicate BMW reported 306,000 US sales and 2.5 million global sales in 2017.

That said, it's progress - 2100 combined Model S and X produced per week, and about 4100 Model 3's per week, relative to a goal of 6,000 per week, if I remember right.
I am comparing the first quarter sales from here: http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_30 ... sales.html
to the current Tesla quarter. The figure 306k might be annual sales of BMW in USA. Agree on worldwide vs USA sales.

For international/USA, Tesla made 25k cars in the first quarter of which ~11k were sold in USA. We are yet to see the division/exact number on the current quarter.
When in doubt, http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939

tmcc
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by tmcc » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:39 am

Comparing Tesla to other car manufactures in the context of , "see?? they're almost there!!" while their forward PE is like 500 is comical.

Valuethinker
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:51 am

AtlasShrugged? wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:12 am
One takeaway I had....Avoid stocks where the CEO is a prolific social media user.

This aspect really has not been commented upon. Guess what? Social media posts can and will be used in a court of law. I sometimes wonder if people actually get that or not. In Mr. Musk's case, evidently not.
Yes. Social media is basically toxic waste for corporate leaders. It's either the Forced stuff to "inspire" the employees - shades of David Brent in "The Office" (American or British version) OR you get the paranoid stuff. On the former Lucy Kellaway of the Financial Times wrote a brilliant column and book ("Who moved my blackberry" by Martin Lukes) of the diary and social media thoughts of an egomaniac Chief Executive - Martin Lukes CEO of AB Global (with an umlaut over the o).

On the paranoid stuff the world does not need to see our Jungian Shadow. Our valuethinker if you will ;-).
I might also add, if you know the CEO is a recreational drug user/abuser?, I'd avoid that stock as well. Too many things can go awry.

Memo to Mr. Musk: Yo, Ambien and weed don't mix well together - at all. It surely does not help Tesla valuation when financial reporters are writing about your recreational drug use. Dry out, chill out, and focus on the fundamentals of your businesses.
It's usually a sign of serious personal problems which will affect judgement.

Also what message does it send to overstressed and overworked assembly line workers and middle managers? They should deal with stress by being stoned?

You gotta walk the talk. If you don't want your people stoned, you have to not be stoned. I have seen businesses where excessive use of alcohol, and even abuse, was a feature of office socials etc (this is likely to be more common in the UK, where not everyone drives home and the culture is less puritannical than some parts of the USA, than in the USA). In the long run, it was corrosive -- the hangover in business terms eventually came. Also alcohol is a disinhibitor of other behaviour, and that "other behaviour" can be very bad news -- some people should not let their colleagues see their disinhibited selves.

alwayshedge
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by alwayshedge » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:08 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:28 am
Tanelorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:27 am
Up 10-15% premarket on the news, about $300 again.
The stock could go to $1,000 - when the funding runs out, game over! Then you can take your stock and use it as wallpaper. Or a decorative showpiece. Tesla needs to produce more than it burns - still not there. Eventually it may run of investor patience.
If the stock went to $1,000, his funding problems would be all but over since he would have the ability to raise large amounts of capital through a secondary offering.

jdb
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by jdb » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:43 pm

This is a completely non responsive post. But did anyone notice that the OP used three exclamation points. I hate the exclamation point. Using one is usually overkill. Should be rule on this forum never to use more than one, and even if use one you are on double secret probation. Just my off topic response. Good luck.

TomCat96
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by TomCat96 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 pm

jdb wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:43 pm
This is a completely non responsive post. But did anyone notice that the OP used three exclamation points. I hate the exclamation point. Using one is usually overkill. Should be rule on this forum never to use more than one, and even if use one you are on double secret probation. Just my off topic response. Good luck.
I for one, was completely appalled by the OP's extravagance. We are an understanding crowd, but we can only brook so much audacity. Did you notice OP was even inconsistent with his usage of capitalization in the title?

jdb
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by jdb » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:49 pm

TomCat96 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 pm
jdb wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:43 pm
This is a completely non responsive post. But did anyone notice that the OP used three exclamation points. I hate the exclamation point. Using one is usually overkill. Should be rule on this forum never to use more than one, and even if use one you are on double secret probation. Just my off topic response. Good luck.
I for one, was completely appalled by the OP's extravagance. We are an understanding crowd, but we can only brook so much audacity. Did you notice OP was even inconsistent with his usage of capitalization in the title?
I am a very understanding reader. Even though the author F. Scott Fitzgerald said using exclamation points was like laughing at your own joke and Elmore Leonard said multiple exclamation signs was a sign of a diseased mind I would never question their usefulness!!!!!

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LadyGeek
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!

Post by LadyGeek » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:54 pm

The thread title now has one exclamation point.
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Finridge
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!

Post by Finridge » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Tesla is part of my portfolio. And if you also have an S&P 500 fund or Total Stock Market Fund in your holdings, it's part of your portfolio also. The great thing about Boglehead investing is that we don't need to worry about the foibles of headstrong CEO's. Even if Musk runs Tesla into the ground, our portfolios will be OK. And if he succeeds, they will do even better (marginally so, but better).

I hope Tesla succeeds and becomes a stable, profitable company. But even if it doesn't and goes BK, it has already succeeded in forcing the other auto manufacturers to really up their game--we're all benefiting from that.

iamlucky13
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!

Post by iamlucky13 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:39 pm

Tesla is in at least some total stock market funds, including Vanguard's, but it is not in the S&P 500.

jclear
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Re: SEC charges Musk with Fraud!!!

Post by jclear » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:35 pm

alwayshedge wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:08 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:28 am
Tanelorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:27 am
Up 10-15% premarket on the news, about $300 again.
The stock could go to $1,000 - when the funding runs out, game over! Then you can take your stock and use it as wallpaper. Or a decorative showpiece. Tesla needs to produce more than it burns - still not there. Eventually it may run of investor patience.
If the stock went to $1,000, his funding problems would be all but over since he would have the ability to raise large amounts of capital through a secondary offering.
Raising capital won't necessarily help Tesla become profitable. Better would be to use the hypothetical high stock price to merge with a profitable company.

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