Girls and investing

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
ColoRetiredGirl
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by ColoRetiredGirl » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:05 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:21 pm
Fundamental business concepts can be learned by anyone at any age in a way that can be understood. As simple as making good choices, thinking before acting and/or choosing, and the consequences of poor choices in the near and long term. It doesn't have to be about money. The concepts apply to everything around us. As simple as plant an apple tree, sell the apples, or, sell lemonade get money buy toys. Or, get good grades, be paid 50 cents for every "B", a dollar for every "A", which is investing in one self.

I grew up amongst business families. Uncle's laundromat. His children all helped out. Auntie's drug store. Her children did everything. And so forth. The lessons are organic and behavioral. It's not the currency of money but the currency of one's skillsets, values, and so forth.

j
+1. This was the way my parents taught me about life and money. I remember taking my little savings book to the bank at age 6. I grew up learning money did not grow on trees. Work hard as doing otherwise is stealing from your employer. It never occurred to me that not going to college was an option. The word consequences was drilled into my head from at a very young age. And, yes I am a “ girl”.

randomguy
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by randomguy » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:15 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:03 pm

Hettie, is known as Witch of Wall Street. Warren Buffett, the Wizard of Omaha.
Hettie, is known as a 'miser.' Warren, a 'frugal' sage.
Warren buffet has a couple of 10 million dollar houses and flies around in a private jet. He is also a member of Augusta national and drove a cadalliac. Guy isn't exactly slumming it.Hettie was rumored to not turn on the heat , rent office space, or wash her clothes regularly. That is on the other side of slumming it for me. Maybe it is gender but I think there were some behavior issues.

Now the witch part is pretty sexist but I have heard Warren referred to as a wizard😁

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bertilak
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by bertilak » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:30 am

golfCaddy wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:25 pm
You're asking on the wrong message board. If learning to invest means learning how to select individual stocks like Buffet did, the answer from 99% of this board would be never. This board is dedicated to passive investment strategies.
I think one needs to understand "traditional" investing topics like stock picking and market timing in order to eventually buy into index investing. "Buying into" requires confidence. You can't have confidence without understanding.

Also, it's best hearing it from you than picking it up on the street! :D
Last edited by bertilak on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rupert
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Rupert » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:32 am

randomguy wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:32 pm

Age for this type of things is very kid specifc. Most 7/8 year olds are working on basic money math (i.e. how many .05 gumballs can I get for 10 dollars) and don't have a great idea of what exactly things like companies are. Working on things like deferred gratification (i.e. save your 10 dollars for 3 months to buy a more expensive item) is more reasonable. This isn't a gender things. It is an age thing. Obviously some kids are more advanced in areas than others.
+1. I don't think it's possible to really comprehend "investing," as that term is typically understood, until certain mathematical concepts have been mastered. Most kids start learning long division, multiplication, and basic fractions in 3rd grade. Math prodigies exist, of course, but they are fairly rare. (Warren Buffett is likely one of these. After watching the recent documentary about him on HBO, I was left with the impression that he is likely on the autism spectrum.) That said, I've been teaching my girls about work, saving, delayed gratification, and value since they were born by explaining my actions to them (i.e., why I'm buying the large bottle of detergent, as opposed to the small one; why we buy some things at Costco, rather than the grocery store; why we aren't buying a $100 dress that will be worn only one time, etc.), by compensating them for some work they do around the house, by encouraging them to save their funds for a big, meaningful purchase when we go on vacation as opposed to blowing it right away on little, meaningless purchases, and by making them wait until Christmas, birthdays and other special occasions to receive gifts. Another thing I've done, because my girls are at an age where many girls, for whatever reason, begin to lose interest in math and science, is to really openly re-assure them that they can be good at math and science and to encourage them to pursue careers in math and science. A lot of their friends have mothers who are doctor/scientists or science educators, which helps.
Last edited by Rupert on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

letsgobobby
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by letsgobobby » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:35 am

Such an interesting question.

I've been teaching my kids about investing since they were born. We talk about transferring money from their bank to their UTMA and buying shares of their target date 2200 fund. We talk about how investing in index funds buys them a tiny slice of profit every time we go to Starbucks, McDonald's, or Target. We talk about private vs publicly traded companies. We draw pictures of Warren Buffett and when they do oral reports in school it's usually about Benjamin Graham, Adam Smith, or Jack Bogle. While others play Ode to Joy at their piano recital, my kids play Ode to the Index Fund. Their favorite bedtime stories are The Richest Man in Babylon and Reminiscences of a Stock Operator. They love when I sing Frère Jacques, Frère Jacques, Commerçez-vous? Saturday nights we like to pop in old shows of Wall Street Week with Louis Ruykeyser. Their favorite vacation photos are the ones where they're sitting next to the million dollars at the Chicago Merc and riding Charging Bull on Wall Street.

Some of this is even true.

Pinotage
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Pinotage » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:40 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote: That's a cool idea. Would you take her to visit the NYSE for her next birthday? To see the bull?
Or maybe the Fearless Girl?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearless_Girl

To the original question, no difference for boys vs girls. Would base this decision on the child.

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market timer
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by market timer » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:30 am

I have a son and a daughter. They are very different. I remember buying a soccer ball for my son when he was 2 and looking forward to playing kick in the backyard. To this day, he never wants to play soccer with me. However, I just spent the afternoon kicking that soccer ball around with my daughter. Kids have their own interests. If either wants to learn about investing some day, I'm happy to nurture that.

One thing I hope my kids never have is an excuse for why they can't achieve their potential. I'm certainly not going to provide one for them.

Mademoisellebogleheads
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:33 am

Thank you for posting about the statue of the Fearless Girl. I knew about the Iron Bull, but today just learned that the Fearless Girl is to be moved to the NYSE in 2018!

Per Wiki: The original statue is set to be moved three blocks away to the New York Stock Exchange by the end of 2018.

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:34 am

When I say math skills for investing, I don't mean geometry, calculous, or trigonometry. I'm talking about arithmetics.

Addition
Subtraction
Multiplication
Division
Percentage

These are the very minimal and the only thing needed for investing purposes. I would think that a girl in the 8-13 age group should be able to manage this,

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JPH
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by JPH » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:36 am

At that age they can begin to learn about acquiring money, spending money, and saving money and the trade-offs among those. For instance, they can learn that money can be exchanged for things they want, and to make that happen they will need a way to acquire money and sometimes to delay spending to save money for a preferable goal.
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Mademoisellebogleheads
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:40 am

I also imagine that girls or any kid at that age 8-13 are very literal.

They don't understand the beauty of saving, investing, working, entrepreneurship.

It's almost better if we just buy 1 share of Nvidia, Netflix, or Chipotle, a stock that's quite volatile but with a good prospect, and let her watch the share prices that go up and down so she sees that something is HAPPENING.

Mademoisellebogleheads
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:41 am

Girls are also social. If their friends aren't doing something, then they won't do it either. Roblox as 12 Million views on YouTube, by a lady who does candy hauls. All the kids are going nuts for it. The girls just write in one word comment.

"Hi!"

And then that gets 12 likes.

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:47 am

Also, in some schools, knowledge about the Constitution is required for graduation for 8th grade (13 yo). If kids can be expected to understand the fundamentals of the Constitution, why are they not be expected to understand something about investing, which is part of personal finance.
But to me, personal finance sounds awfully boring if I was at that age group.

However, i mom and dad takes me to see the Fearless Girl, and the Charging Bull in NYC, and I ride the subway and see all those smartly dressed people go to work on Wall Street, and i have a little cute book on Hetty (the Witch of Wall Street), and I've eaten an ice cream cone at the NY Feds Bank, and I understand that if I invest well, I can be rich when I grow up and I can buy hundreds and thousands of Barbies, and I have one share of Amazon, or Disney, and I can talk to my friends about all of this stuff because they're all cool and are all into this stuff, and everything is pink and bubbly, and YEAH, my BFFs and I are all, like obsessing, about you know, FLIP FLOPS!

Then, we might interest our girls. Some of it is about beautification and design issues around the girl audience.

golfCaddy
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by golfCaddy » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:00 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:40 am
It's almost better if we just buy 1 share of Nvidia, Netflix, or Chipotle, a stock that's quite volatile but with a good prospect, and let her watch the share prices that go up and down so she sees that something is HAPPENING.
This is an absolutely terrible idea. What if the stock goes up? Then, the lesson that gets internalized is she's a skilled stock picker with the ability to beat the market. If you have to teach an 8 year old about investing, buy a share of a Vanguard Target Retirement fund.

ResearchMed
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:04 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:47 am
Also, in some schools, knowledge about the Constitution is required for graduation for 8th grade (13 yo). If kids can be expected to understand the fundamentals of the Constitution, why are they not be expected to understand something about investing, which is part of personal finance.
But to me, personal finance sounds awfully boring if I was at that age group.

However, i mom and dad takes me to see the Fearless Girl, and the Charging Bull in NYC, and I ride the subway and see all those smartly dressed people go to work on Wall Street, and i have a little cute book on Hetty (the Witch of Wall Street), and I've eaten an ice cream cone at the NY Feds Bank, and I understand that if I invest well, I can be rich when I grow up and I can buy hundreds and thousands of Barbies, and I have one share of Amazon, or Disney, and I can talk to my friends about all of this stuff because they're all cool and are all into this stuff, and everything is pink and bubbly, and YEAH, my BFFs and I are all, like obsessing, about you know, FLIP FLOPS!

Then, we might interest our girls. Some of it is about beautification and design issues around the girl audience.
Uh... emphasis on "I can be rich" and "how many Barbies", etc...?
I suppose IF that's what the daughter is "into", for now and future goals.

Some of us little girls were interested in math and science more than Barbies.
(Or camping or running a neighborhood newspaper, or such.)

It all depends upon the individual girl or boy, in terms of what interests them, and how ready they are.

RM
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Mademoisellebogleheads
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:09 am

golfCaddy wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:00 am
Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:40 am
It's almost better if we just buy 1 share of Nvidia, Netflix, or Chipotle, a stock that's quite volatile but with a good prospect, and let her watch the share prices that go up and down so she sees that something is HAPPENING.
This is an absolutely terrible idea. What if the stock goes up? Then, the lesson that gets internalized is she's a skilled stock picker with the ability to beat the market. If you have to teach an 8 year old about investing, buy a share of a Vanguard Target Retirement fund.
au con·traire
I wouldn't call it an "absolutely' terrible idea. I think an individual stock on a brand that a kid can touch and feel provides a momentum and a literal, tangible expression of what a share of stock means. Watching snail walk or paint dry (indexing) that takes months and years is not going to be enough of an incentive for an 8 year old.

I do think you have a good point tho. That springs to a better idea. Buy one share of a specific stock, AND 1 share of a Target Retirement fund, for comparison purposes. Let the girl see the difference between active vs indexing. Ultimately a sophisticated investor understands the pros and cons of each and decides for themselves.

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:12 am

ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:04 am
Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:47 am
Also, in some schools, knowledge about the Constitution is required for graduation for 8th grade (13 yo). If kids can be expected to understand the fundamentals of the Constitution, why are they not be expected to understand something about investing, which is part of personal finance.
But to me, personal finance sounds awfully boring if I was at that age group.

However, i mom and dad takes me to see the Fearless Girl, and the Charging Bull in NYC, and I ride the subway and see all those smartly dressed people go to work on Wall Street, and i have a little cute book on Hetty (the Witch of Wall Street), and I've eaten an ice cream cone at the NY Feds Bank, and I understand that if I invest well, I can be rich when I grow up and I can buy hundreds and thousands of Barbies, and I have one share of Amazon, or Disney, and I can talk to my friends about all of this stuff because they're all cool and are all into this stuff, and everything is pink and bubbly, and YEAH, my BFFs and I are all, like obsessing, about you know, FLIP FLOPS!

Then, we might interest our girls. Some of it is about beautification and design issues around the girl audience.
Uh... emphasis on "I can be rich" and "how many Barbies", etc...?
I suppose IF that's what the daughter is "into", for now and future goals.

Some of us little girls were interested in math and science more than Barbies.
(Or camping or running a neighborhood newspaper, or such.)

It all depends upon the individual girl or boy, in terms of what interests them, and how ready they are.

RM

Yes. Insert "barbie" for other stuff, ponies, kittens, skis, paint brushes, test tubes, petri dishes, etc. "Toys" or "Rewards" that incentivize the child.
I think it's absolutely possible to be interested in these other careers AND be a successful lifelong investor. Not mutually exclusive.

ResearchMed
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:23 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:12 am
ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:04 am
Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:47 am
Also, in some schools, knowledge about the Constitution is required for graduation for 8th grade (13 yo). If kids can be expected to understand the fundamentals of the Constitution, why are they not be expected to understand something about investing, which is part of personal finance.
But to me, personal finance sounds awfully boring if I was at that age group.

However, i mom and dad takes me to see the Fearless Girl, and the Charging Bull in NYC, and I ride the subway and see all those smartly dressed people go to work on Wall Street, and i have a little cute book on Hetty (the Witch of Wall Street), and I've eaten an ice cream cone at the NY Feds Bank, and I understand that if I invest well, I can be rich when I grow up and I can buy hundreds and thousands of Barbies, and I have one share of Amazon, or Disney, and I can talk to my friends about all of this stuff because they're all cool and are all into this stuff, and everything is pink and bubbly, and YEAH, my BFFs and I are all, like obsessing, about you know, FLIP FLOPS!

Then, we might interest our girls. Some of it is about beautification and design issues around the girl audience.
Uh... emphasis on "I can be rich" and "how many Barbies", etc...?
I suppose IF that's what the daughter is "into", for now and future goals.

Some of us little girls were interested in math and science more than Barbies.
(Or camping or running a neighborhood newspaper, or such.)

It all depends upon the individual girl or boy, in terms of what interests them, and how ready they are.

RM

Yes. Insert "barbie" for other stuff, ponies, kittens, skis, paint brushes, test tubes, petri dishes, etc. "Toys" or "Rewards" that incentivize the child.
I think it's absolutely possible to be interested in these other careers AND be a successful lifelong investor. Not mutually exclusive.
I hope I didn't write anything that suggested that various "interests" and being a successful investor are mutually exclusive.
:confused

On the other hand, I hope I *did* suggest that "being rich" (and buying lots and lots of <whatevers>) is not everyone's goal.
Many of us carefully choose careers that are not likely to "get us rich", and turned down some options that were more likely to do so.
That doesn't mean that saving/investing prudently for the future isn't important/being done.

RM
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:28 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:44 pm
Thank you for all the thoughtful answer.

What do YOU think could pique the young girl's mind? How would you incentivize the process to make it fun for them????
1. If she has a savings account or you can help her set one up, do a mommy matching fund. If she agrees to save X dollars (of her allowance for instance), match it with X dollars. This will teach her about compounding interest, getting a 401k match later on, etc. She will also see her money growing faster because of the compounding effect (doubling if you do $1 for $1). You can put a cap on it. A few weeks ago I heard a caller on the Clark Howard podcast say she was doing this but she didn't fully appreciate the law of compounding interest (I think it was an Aunt of a child, not a mother). I think she was not doubling what was the niece saved each week, but rather what the niece had in the account at the end of every two weeks. As you can imagine, it grew fairly fast fairly quickly and she couldn't continue doing that. You can show your daughter the following example and/or ask her whether she'd rather have $100,000 a day for 30 days or a penny that doubles every day for 30 days:

https://www.al6400.com/blog/a-penny-doubled-everyday/

If you do the $100,000 a day for 30 days vs. penny doubling each day for 30 days you can actually show that the penny doubling is only worth $655.36 on day 17 while the $100,000 a day would be worth $1,700,000 on the same day. But look what a difference compounding makes the longer you stick with it. Warren Buffett has been investing since he was a teenager, but he supposedly made most of his money after he was 50 (source: https://www.quora.com/Why-was-99-of-War ... h-birthday). Compounding interest is the 8th wonder of the world, but you have to be patient and allow it time.

2. Another example from Buffett you could give is how he bought a 6 pack of coca cola for twenty five cents when he was a kid and sold them to his friends for a nickel a piece. This is business and a darn good return on investment. Even though he bought the cokes for twenty five cents total, he sold them in total for 30 cents. Even though it's only a five cent profit, 5 cent profit / 25 cent initial investment equals a 20% return on investment. Not bad for a young kid.

3. by the way, I was going to mention Hettie too (as a successful woman investor) but then remembered she was pretty darn miserly and I wouldn't want to necessarily use her as an example to aspire to. It's true that she was demonized while Warren is sainted but Warren is giving away his wealth while Hettie didn't want to pay to help her own son when he had a medical condition. Very different people and you could say Hettie brought some of the negativity on herself as a result.
Her frugality extended to family life. When her son Ned broke his leg as a child, Hetty tried to have him admitted to a free clinic for the poor.[3] Mythic accounts have her storming away after being recognized; her biographer Slack says that she paid her bill and took her son to other doctors. His leg did not heal properly and, after years of treatment, it had to be amputated.[3]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetty_Green
Melinda Gates is a very smart woman. She may not have "made" the money herself, but she has (or will have) helped literally millions of people around the world. I believe it was her influence on Bill that led to the projects and passions that they now both share, resulted in the Gates Foundation and the Giving Pledge. Not too bad in my opinion.
Last edited by arcticpineapplecorp. on Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
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HueyLD
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by HueyLD » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:37 am

I used to work with a group of women whose mission is life was to "marry well" so that they could quit their jobs by age 30.

It was an eye opening experience because the vast majority of them graduated from very good colleges with high GPAs.

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Dottie57 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:40 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:20 pm
May I ask you why?

What if there was a bubblegum pink princess Disney type of book to explain the vocabulary in the most girl friendly concept?

My colleagues have taught their 7 year old boys on investing, but never the girls. Why not?
This applies to boys and girls. First priority is teaching about saving and not spending every penny you have.

When kids are in their teens, they may be more prone to be interested in listening about money

7 and 8 year olds should mainly be kids.

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by mkawasaki » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:41 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:44 pm
Thank you for all the thoughtful answer.

What do YOU think could pique the young girl's mind? How would you incentivize the process to make it fun for them????
I have two teenage daughters, now 18 and 17. Few ideas that I implemented, each were incredibly successful and fun for the girls. I'd proudly state (chest pumped up :-) ) that my girls are extremely responsible with money and very self-sufficient.

* Vacation: Girls planned our vacations based on a budget. Started when they were 10 and 11. Amazing experience as they tracked all the spending, and even gave me a tough time when I wanted to buy a Starbucks latte while in Tokyo -- they told me "Dad, not in the budget!"

* Clothing: I give my girls an annual clothing budget (I start on 1 June after the school year ends). Started this when they were 11 or 12. Probably the best budgeting and money project ever implemented with my girls. They now had to make the tough decisions. I put some small restrictions on them (could only spend 60% before 1 December when had to consider winter clothes, and had to make sure they bought socks and underwear). They suddenly became budget shoppers and often returned items; they even comparison shop and request discounts (even at stores like Nordstrom and they've never been turned down when they show proof on-line).

* Allowance: I give them a monthly allowance to cover all their "incidental" expenses. This initially was focused on eating out with friends, going to the movies, etc. Allowance amount increased as they became older. It now has to cover the hair, nails, bikini waxing, etc. Again, they make some tough trade-offs but in the end they are deciding how to spend their allowance.

* Savings: They started earning money at 12 years old. I put together a simple table on graph paper. They had to document how much they made and calculate 50% going to their savings account. They complained, but last year they each bought cars with their savings.

* Investments: I haven't pushed this too much because wanted #1 and #2 lessons to be about budgeting and savings. However, last year I opened and funded a Roth IRA for them and they can get monthly reports, which creates discussions on investing strategy.

Hope this helps...

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by golfCaddy » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:48 am

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:09 am
au con·traire
I wouldn't call it an "absolutely' terrible idea. I think an individual stock on a brand that a kid can touch and feel provides a momentum and a literal, tangible expression of what a share of stock means. Watching snail walk or paint dry (indexing) that takes months and years is not going to be enough of an incentive for an 8 year old.
It sounds like you have your mind made up, so I'll end with this. Investing is supposed to be boring. It's not supposed to mimic the gambler's rush that comes from having a winning hand at poker or blackjack in a casino. Even the factor proponents believe you need to be willing to commit to a strategy for a couple of decades to have a reasonable chance of it paying off. If a Target Retirement fund is too boring for an 8 year old, then 8 is too young to learn about investing.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:52 am

one other thought, from Clark Howard I just remembered:

When his kids were little he'd take them shopping and he made a deal with them. The deal was when they wanted an item (say a name brand sugary cereal) he would show them the price and then say if you can find the lowest price similar item (store brand instead) he would give them the difference. So if the name brand ceral cost $3.50 and the generic was $3.00 he'd give them $.50. May seem small, but it has benefits:

1. it adds up if you do it on multiple products,
2. it teaches them to hunt for the lowest priceor best deals, rather just the name brand (eye level on the shelf) product,
3. later you can teach them why the name brand costs more (usually due to the higher cost of advertising. Why pay more to help a company advertise?) and so on.
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | “The purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.” -- William Bernstein

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:56 am

golfCaddy wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:48 am
Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:09 am
au con·traire
I wouldn't call it an "absolutely' terrible idea. I think an individual stock on a brand that a kid can touch and feel provides a momentum and a literal, tangible expression of what a share of stock means. Watching snail walk or paint dry (indexing) that takes months and years is not going to be enough of an incentive for an 8 year old.
It sounds like you have your mind made up, so I'll end with this. Investing is supposed to be boring. It's not supposed to mimic the gambler's rush that comes from having a winning hand at poker or blackjack in a casino. Even the factor proponents believe you need to be willing to commit to a strategy for a couple of decades to have a reasonable chance of it paying off. If a Target Retirement fund is too boring for an 8 year old, then 8 is too young to learn about investing.
I'm with golfCaddy on this one. The motley fools often say this is a strategy to get kids interested in stocks (buy the companies they know), but it could turn them off if the stock they buy (or is bought for them) goes down the drain or doesn't increase value over time. It would be teaching the wrong lesson. Even worse, what if the stock goes up, what lesson has that taught them? They got lucky, that's all, but they may think instead that they're smart (or smarter than others, the market, etc.) They should not confuse outcome with strategy but they won't know to do that unless you explain it.

Picking stocks also gives mixed messages about risk. In investing you should only take a risk for which you're likely to be compensated. Individual stocks carry many different risks for which you may not be compensated (sector risk, stock risk, size risk, style risk, country risk). Owning the market eliminates all these risks and leaves you with only market risk (the risk the market by and large will decline at times). You have to accept that risk to get the return of the market. But you don't have to take all the other risks. And you can even mitigate market risk, by owning bonds which are a diversifier, non-correlated and safer than stocks generally (if high quality short to intermediates are used).
Last edited by arcticpineapplecorp. on Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | “The purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.” -- William Bernstein

Miakis
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Miakis » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:01 pm

If I had kids, I'd probably start them off by letting them choose shares of a company to buy each year for their birthday. I assume it would be companies that produce their favorite products. I'd then buy them an equal dollar amount of a total market mutual fund or maybe the S&P 500.

Then each year we could compare the two and keep building our portfolio. I assume the conversation would develop over the years from there.

If our diversified mutual fund performs better than individual stocks, I would guess that a kid would eventually choose to buy more of that instead of individual stocks.

HongKonger
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by HongKonger » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:09 pm

Don't underestimate 7/8 yr olds. My sister and I used to play a game with her daughter when she was around the same age based on looking at advertisements and asking her did she like the ad and why and what was being sold and how. She's 16 now and sees right through brand BS - ergo, is not a slave to labels or spending excessively to keep up with others.

DJN
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by DJN » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:09 pm

I have tried to get my daughter involved and this was difficult because I wasn't able to tune in to her. I don't believe it has anything to do with her gender. However we are asking her to become involved in understanding and getting on top of our investments so that she can play a part as soon as she needs to, this might work better than "lectures" or the like whether dressed up as games or whatever. She is now 18. If there is anything left for her she will need to be able to manage it at the appropriate time. Trying to get her involved at 7 or 8 didn't work. I do sense that she was affected by the GFC and has a dread of money. It is interesting to try and understand the mindset of Generation X and whatever comes next as this seems to reflect how they approach money and risk born out of their formative years, perhaps someone very clever is right now slaving away at a Ph. D. on the subject.
DJN

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9-5 Suited
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by 9-5 Suited » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:10 pm

A princess book where the sleeping beauty can only be saved by Prince Charming leaving his high cost brokerage and purchasing shares of VTSAX would be pretty awesome :)

I would think the same lessons that work for young children should apply regardless of gender. If the child is interested, then great, and if not then don’t worry about trying to force it.

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:12 pm

danielc wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:16 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:56 pm

Teach her about compound interest- those who understand it, earn it. Those who don’t, pay it.
Brilliant! I think I found my new signature!
Attribution for quote belongs to other Boglehead forum posters, not I. It’s so true that I’m just spreading the gospel of compound interest.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:34 pm

I’m a parent and elementary school teacher (for the past 15 years). We’re keeping it simple right now for our four-year-old daughter with basic stuff like the importance of saving money and how you should spend your money wisely since it takes time and hard work to earn it.

With my 5th graders, I get into investments. We discuss things like what investing is, reasons to invest, inflation, short-term and long-term goals, risks in investing (particularly stocks), and what common types of investments are and the advantages and disadvantages of each. I use websites and worksheets that I’ve created to teach these concepts. I emphasize compounding to the kids by explaining to them how the growth of money tends to snowball when invested for longer and longer periods of time (graphs help with this). Then I have the students pick two companies they want to invest in and they use online resources to write a paragraph about each company. Next, students are given some pretend money and buy shares of their two companies. Their reactions when seeing the price per share change before their eyes is priceless each time.

I pass out laptops to the kids and show them how to create a spreadsheet to monitor the growth (or loss) of their investments. They do this each Wednesday for a couple of months and then finally sell their investments. I do explain that in real life they would likely hold their investments for longer. They use the data points from each Wednesday to create line graphs for each company over the time they owned it and calculate things like the percent they made or lost over the term. There are various writing pieces involved as well such as comparing & contrasting the performance of the two stocks. This gets us into the topic of mutual funds and what happens to risk when a person invests in more and more companies rather than just one or two or a few. They also write a report at the end to reflect on what they learned.

I don’t get into stuff like different types of investment accounts or taxes with them. This is a math project for ten-year-olds, after all. The majority of the students are able to understand the concepts well and they are excited to be on a computer creating a spreadsheet, buying and selling stocks, and hoping to earn a profit. I have not done this project when I’ve taught 4th grade. Some of the students seem a little young for some of the concepts at that age whereas by 5th grade, most seem to “get it.”

For younger kids, I would start a base of knowledge and try to raise curiosity about the topics. Then build from there a little at a time.

Poppy1234
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Poppy1234 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:38 pm

What does gender have to do with anything? Why isn’t the post titled “KIDS and investing”? I don’t even know what to say.

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JoMoney
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by JoMoney » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:37 pm

It depends on the kid. I don't think gender is a factor, but the kids developmental state and the kids interests are a factor. Some 7 year olds barely read, and can't tie their own shoes. Some 8 year olds read at a high school level. Some adults don't have any interest with investing.
See if they have any interest in watching Buffett's "Secret Millionaires Club" cartoon:
http://www.smckids.com/
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

Lynette
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Lynette » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:01 pm

As a single woman, I am frequently stunned by the multiple threads by husbands/partners who are in despair as to how their wife/partner will handle finances once they are gone. There is a lot of hand wringing. Obviously there was a basic problem with education starting off when the girls were younger ....

Rupert
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Rupert » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:49 pm

Lynette wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:01 pm
As a single woman, I am frequently stunned by the multiple threads by husbands/partners who are in despair as to how their wife/partner will handle finances once they are gone. There is a lot of hand wringing. Obviously there was a basic problem with education starting off when the girls were younger ....
I've read some posts like that written by women, too. I think it's really easy in a partnership, especially when there are kids and everyone is pulled in a dozen different directions, to allow one person to take on that role. It becomes a habit if you're not careful.

JoeRetire
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:19 pm

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:36 pm
I feel like the concepts of saving, entrepreneurship, hard work, business understanding, investing shouldn't be that difficult, if it's presented in the right way. Warren Buffet started these when he was 7.
You aren't Warren Buffet. Neither are your girls. When did your parents teach you?

You should start teaching them about investing when you are ready and capable of doing it, and they are ready and capable of absorbing and understanding it.

NJ-Irish
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by NJ-Irish » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:27 pm

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:00 pm
NJ-Irish wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:58 pm
My first exposure to investing was around 11 with a school competition to manage a paper portfolio of $10,000 for 6 weeks. I remember for that six weeks my team “bought” a small amount of McDonald’s shares, not nearly $10k worth of shares, and because the market went down during those 6 weeks we ended ranking pretty high.

I remember thinking through the logic and figuring out why we ranked so high. It didn’t immediately make sense but I eventually figured out that everybody else’s portfolios went down and ours stayed around even.

Overall it was a good experience, especially learning that markets go down almost as often as they go up. I learned this at 11, not sure if I would have taken the same lessons away any younger.


May I ask you in the investment team, how many girls, and how many boys were there?
Honestly I can’t remember. It was a classroom excercise so I’m assuming it was about 50/50.

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slayed
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by slayed » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:31 pm

Poppy1234 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:38 pm
What does gender have to do with anything? Why isn’t the post titled “KIDS and investing”? I don’t even know what to say.
Girls and boys tend to learn and develop differently, especially at young ages.

ResearchMed
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:41 pm

slayed wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:31 pm
Poppy1234 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:38 pm
What does gender have to do with anything? Why isn’t the post titled “KIDS and investing”? I don’t even know what to say.
Girls and boys tend to learn and develop differently, especially at young ages.
But those are averages, and the distributions are very much overlapping.
Individual variation is what matters: What is YOUR child doing, interested in, etc.?

What is important (about "finances") may vary a lot, depending upon parents' outlooks and choices.
Here on BH, we certainly don't have a random sample of "families" (or couples or singles).

And not all of us here grew up in families where "good financial planning" was stressed.
I certainly did not, not even close.

Regardless, one size usually doesn't fit all.
Tailoring things to the child's interests is often going to help things along (assuming it can be in a productive direction). But those interests (or "suitable ages") aren't going to group together strictly by gender (not to mention the variability in gender identity, etc.)

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

jkelly
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by jkelly » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:48 pm

I listened to this podcast this morning and there was a young entrepeneur teen in the first story:

https://play.pocketcasts.com/web/podcas ... 3c91aeae46

Jeff

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:42 pm

Mom matching investing fund.

The latte in Tokyo that was “not in the budget, dad!”

Such great ideas. Totally adorable! Would appeal to the girls...

Thank you!

MadmoiselleB

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:45 pm

RM and others,

Right on! Each girl is different. No one size fits all approach.

I also realize that not all girls want to be professional managers or investors,; they may want to be well invested AND work at a job I science curing cancer.

ResearchMed
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:48 pm

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:42 pm
Mom matching investing fund.

The latte in Tokyo that was “not in the budget, dad!”

Such great ideas. Totally adorable! Would appeal to the girls...

Thank you!

MadmoiselleB
Why would a "matching fund" not appeal to the "boys"?

I don't think setting up these disparate ways of treating "boys" and "girls" is helping the "situation".

I'm still not getting all the emphasis on "adorable" and "pink", etc., for helping children (of either sex) to learn about finance, investing, or just balancing a checkbook.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

Mademoisellebogleheads
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:53 pm

Yes it should apply to both girls and boys. But I’ll let others address the education of boys. All kids need financial education. But I am focusing on the girls because the numbers are skewed towards more males invest than females.

If there is a gender differences between investing we can be politically correct to say there is no difference in how we educate the genders or we can be realistic and see what the messages are that could maximize the intended results.

I am astounded to see 12 million views on YouTube of CookieC who does candy hauls, which appeal to girls. Whether we like it or not. There are many, many, many, in the millions of girls who love the Disney princess stuff.

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Re: Girls and investing

Post by VictoriaF » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:01 pm

Every child should get The Bogleheads Guide to Investing for their 5th birthday and use it to learn reading.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

ResearchMed
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:05 pm

Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:53 pm
Yes it should apply to both girls and boys. But I’ll let others address the education of boys. All kids need financial education. But I am focusing on the girls because the numbers are skewed towards more males invest than females.

If there is a gender differences between investing we can be politically correct to say there is no difference in how we educate the genders or we can be realistic and see what the messages are that could maximize the intended results.

I am astounded to see 12 million views on YouTube of CookieC who does candy hauls, which appeal to girls. Whether we like it or not. There are many, many, many, in the millions of girls who love the Disney princess stuff.
My point remains: ALL girls don't like pink and princesses, and some other children do.
Let them play with whatever they choose (subject to parental oversight, etc.).

And help them learn (about finance or anything) in a way the works for *that* child. That is, don't try to teach all girls with pink princessy things or such, and ignore such interests for others.

That's part of the entire problem: treating each individual as the "group", without taking into account whether it's the right thing/approach/etc., for that *particular* child.
There could easily be a range of approaches, as there is in real life, with "girls" solving math problems on dinner napkins or "boys" interested practicing ballet.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

CrazyCatLady
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by CrazyCatLady » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:43 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:05 pm
Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:53 pm
Yes it should apply to both girls and boys. But I’ll let others address the education of boys. All kids need financial education. But I am focusing on the girls because the numbers are skewed towards more males invest than females.

If there is a gender differences between investing we can be politically correct to say there is no difference in how we educate the genders or we can be realistic and see what the messages are that could maximize the intended results.

I am astounded to see 12 million views on YouTube of CookieC who does candy hauls, which appeal to girls. Whether we like it or not. There are many, many, many, in the millions of girls who love the Disney princess stuff.
My point remains: ALL girls don't like pink and princesses, and some other children do.
Let them play with whatever they choose (subject to parental oversight, etc.).

And help them learn (about finance or anything) in a way the works for *that* child. That is, don't try to teach all girls with pink princessy things or such, and ignore such interests for others.

That's part of the entire problem: treating each individual as the "group", without taking into account whether it's the right thing/approach/etc., for that *particular* child.
There could easily be a range of approaches, as there is in real life, with "girls" solving math problems on dinner napkins or "boys" interested practicing ballet.

RM
I'm trying to figure out why there is the implication that you can't like pink and princessy things and also learn and understand finance? I like both :)

My first foray into "investing" was in 6th grade. It was a yearly competition through our local newspaper. My team (4 girls) was the highest ranking school team and came in like 5th or 6th in the state, beating several adult teams. We did it buying things like Coke, Burger Chef and Knight Ridder (cause it sounded like knight rider - it was the 80s :)). We had no clue what we were doing, but it was fun and it was a good way to introduce the concept of investing. I don't remember the topic ever being visited again in school though.

I don't think the boys were taught any differently than girls, at least not as kids. As adults, it does seem like the "husband" tends to control the finances, but I wonder if that is more because he who makes the most controls the finances?

I totally agree that you should teach to each child as an individual in the way they learn best. For me, it was a competition that caught my interest. For others, it may be a book or cartoon or matching contributions in their savings account. As long as they are given some background and the option to continue learning if they are so inclined, does it really matter?

ResearchMed
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:51 pm

CrazyCatLady wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:43 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:05 pm
Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:53 pm
Yes it should apply to both girls and boys. But I’ll let others address the education of boys. All kids need financial education. But I am focusing on the girls because the numbers are skewed towards more males invest than females.

If there is a gender differences between investing we can be politically correct to say there is no difference in how we educate the genders or we can be realistic and see what the messages are that could maximize the intended results.

I am astounded to see 12 million views on YouTube of CookieC who does candy hauls, which appeal to girls. Whether we like it or not. There are many, many, many, in the millions of girls who love the Disney princess stuff.
My point remains: ALL girls don't like pink and princesses, and some other children do.
Let them play with whatever they choose (subject to parental oversight, etc.).

And help them learn (about finance or anything) in a way the works for *that* child. That is, don't try to teach all girls with pink princessy things or such, and ignore such interests for others.

That's part of the entire problem: treating each individual as the "group", without taking into account whether it's the right thing/approach/etc., for that *particular* child.
There could easily be a range of approaches, as there is in real life, with "girls" solving math problems on dinner napkins or "boys" interested practicing ballet.

RM
I'm trying to figure out why there is the implication that you can't like pink and princessy things and also learn and understand finance? I like both :)

My first foray into "investing" was in 6th grade. It was a yearly competition through our local newspaper. My team (4 girls) was the highest ranking school team and came in like 5th or 6th in the state, beating several adult teams. We did it buying things like Coke, Burger Chef and Knight Ridder (cause it sounded like knight rider - it was the 80s :)). We had no clue what we were doing, but it was fun and it was a good way to introduce the concept of investing. I don't remember the topic ever being visited again in school though.

I don't think the boys were taught any differently than girls, at least not as kids. As adults, it does seem like the "husband" tends to control the finances, but I wonder if that is more because he who makes the most controls the finances?

I totally agree that you should teach to each child as an individual in the way they learn best. For me, it was a competition that caught my interest. For others, it may be a book or cartoon or matching contributions in their savings account. As long as they are given some background and the option to continue learning if they are so inclined, does it really matter?
Agreed!

The "problem" as I see it, is suggesting that the pink and princessy things should be *used* to teach *girls*.
I guess so that the lessons can be ... "adorable"?

My point is that not all girls like "girly" things.
There's no need to insist that girls like (or dislike) "pink" (etc.).
But that doesn't need to be involved in teaching finance (or driving or weather predicting or *anything*) to "girls in general".
That's all.

Where you stated: "I'm trying to figure out why there is the implication that you can't like pink and princessy things and also learn and understand finance? I like both :)"
... there's no need to intertwine them for then entire class of girls, or to assume that all girls would benefit from such orientation in the teaching.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

CrazyCatLady
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by CrazyCatLady » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:05 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:51 pm
CrazyCatLady wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:43 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:05 pm
Mademoisellebogleheads wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:53 pm
Yes it should apply to both girls and boys. But I’ll let others address the education of boys. All kids need financial education. But I am focusing on the girls because the numbers are skewed towards more males invest than females.

If there is a gender differences between investing we can be politically correct to say there is no difference in how we educate the genders or we can be realistic and see what the messages are that could maximize the intended results.

I am astounded to see 12 million views on YouTube of CookieC who does candy hauls, which appeal to girls. Whether we like it or not. There are many, many, many, in the millions of girls who love the Disney princess stuff.
My point remains: ALL girls don't like pink and princesses, and some other children do.
Let them play with whatever they choose (subject to parental oversight, etc.).

And help them learn (about finance or anything) in a way the works for *that* child. That is, don't try to teach all girls with pink princessy things or such, and ignore such interests for others.

That's part of the entire problem: treating each individual as the "group", without taking into account whether it's the right thing/approach/etc., for that *particular* child.
There could easily be a range of approaches, as there is in real life, with "girls" solving math problems on dinner napkins or "boys" interested practicing ballet.

RM
I'm trying to figure out why there is the implication that you can't like pink and princessy things and also learn and understand finance? I like both :)

My first foray into "investing" was in 6th grade. It was a yearly competition through our local newspaper. My team (4 girls) was the highest ranking school team and came in like 5th or 6th in the state, beating several adult teams. We did it buying things like Coke, Burger Chef and Knight Ridder (cause it sounded like knight rider - it was the 80s :)). We had no clue what we were doing, but it was fun and it was a good way to introduce the concept of investing. I don't remember the topic ever being visited again in school though.

I don't think the boys were taught any differently than girls, at least not as kids. As adults, it does seem like the "husband" tends to control the finances, but I wonder if that is more because he who makes the most controls the finances?

I totally agree that you should teach to each child as an individual in the way they learn best. For me, it was a competition that caught my interest. For others, it may be a book or cartoon or matching contributions in their savings account. As long as they are given some background and the option to continue learning if they are so inclined, does it really matter?
Agreed!

The "problem" as I see it, is suggesting that the pink and princessy things should be *used* to teach *girls*.
I guess so that the lessons can be ... "adorable"?

My point is that not all girls like "girly" things.
There's no need to insist that girls like (or dislike) "pink" (etc.).
But that doesn't need to be involved in teaching finance (or driving or weather predicting or *anything*) to "girls in general".
That's all.

Where you stated: "I'm trying to figure out why there is the implication that you can't like pink and princessy things and also learn and understand finance? I like both :)"
... there's no need to intertwine them for then entire class of girls, or to assume that all girls would benefit from such orientation in the teaching.

RM
Okay that makes sense, and I agree. I would have responded quite well to Cinderella teaching me how to save and invest, but you would have totally lost my sister. :).

That makes me wonder...why did they never do School House Rock for finance and taxes? That would have been awesome! :D

Mademoisellebogleheads
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Re: Girls and investing

Post by Mademoisellebogleheads » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:11 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:01 pm
Every child should get The Bogleheads Guide to Investing for their 5th birthday and use it to learn reading.

Victoria


omg
I'm not sure if i should take this seriously :shock:

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