Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

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tfb
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by tfb »

From Vanguard Blog today:

What do commission-free ETFs mean for you?

It'll be bad PR if they aren't able to roll it out by 8/31.
Harry Sit, taking a break from the forums.
Jiu Jitsu Fighter
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Jiu Jitsu Fighter »

tj wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:45 am
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:

MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental

Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
Doesn't IJS have even more volume?
Yes, IJS has much more volume but has an expense ratio 10bps higher (.25% vs .15%). Since SLYV has historically been less tax efficient, my preference would by SLYV in a tax-deferred account and IJS in a taxable account.

The S&P 600 funds have an end-around quality screen although S&P doesn't explicitly call it that. I would consider the 600 value fund on par with Dimensional or Bridgeway Omni small value although the advisors that use these funds would disgree.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by jhfenton »

tfb wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:30 pm From Vanguard Blog today:

What do commission-free ETFs mean for you?

It'll be bad PR if they aren't able to roll it out by 8/31.
+1 To be frank, it's already a bit anticlimactic that they haven't rolled it out nearly 7 weeks after their announcement. In this day and age, you can't have that kind of delay between announcement and delivery, especially not with an open-ended delivery date.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Ever Ready »

To be frank, it's already a bit anticlimactic that they haven't rolled it out nearly 7 weeks after their announcement. In this day and age, you can't have that kind of delay between announcement and delivery, especially not with an open-ended delivery date.
Remember VIPERS, international and EM ETFs? Two years between announcement and availability. Of course they did require regulatory approval.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by jhfenton »

Ever Ready wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:50 pm
To be frank, it's already a bit anticlimactic that they haven't rolled it out nearly 7 weeks after their announcement. In this day and age, you can't have that kind of delay between announcement and delivery, especially not with an open-ended delivery date.
Remember VIPERS, international and EM ETFs? Two years between announcement and availability. Of course they did require regulatory approval.
Indeed. I recall a few fund announcements even in the last few years that left folks hanging.

Good times. :beer
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by holyguacamole »

Still nothing. I would expect to hear an announcement about a delay soon. The only thing worse than missing deadlines is keeping your customers in the dark about it.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by retiringwhen »

holyguacamole wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:56 am Still nothing. I would expect to hear an announcement about a delay soon. The only thing worse than missing deadlines is keeping your customers in the dark about it.
They haven't missed a deadline yet (there are still 10 days left in August), but they surely have missed a lot of people's expectations...
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by CyberBob »

They're here!
Tuesday August 21st.
Big announcement on the homepage.
Although, the website seems to be swamped, as I've been trying for 15 minutes to get the trading page to come up.
Here is the full list of commission-free (and not commission-free) ETF's: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/etfcfl.pdf
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by jhfenton »

CyberBob wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:05 am They're here!
Tuesday August 21st.
Big announcement on the homepage.
Although, the website seems to be swamped, as I've been trying for 15 minutes to get the trading page to come up.
Here is the full list of commission-free ETF's: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/etfcfl.pdf
:sharebeer Can confirm. I tested out more than a dozen ETFs on the order screen, and all showed "Free" except for a short equity ETF I picked at random.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by asif408 »

Kind of surprised, based on the list I downloaded from the website, that they do have 3x leveraged and short funds available (e.g., Direxion funds), which I thought they said would not be included because of their speculative nature.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by jhfenton »

asif408 wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:24 am Kind of surprised, based on the list I downloaded from the website, that they do have 3x leveraged and short funds available (e.g., Direxion funds), which I thought they said would not be included because of their speculative nature.
Only 4 non-leveraged, non-inverse Direxion ETFs are available commission-free. The other 70+ are not commission-free. They list them near the end with the bulk of the ProShares ETFs that are not commission-free.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by asif408 »

jhfenton wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:33 am
asif408 wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:24 am Kind of surprised, based on the list I downloaded from the website, that they do have 3x leveraged and short funds available (e.g., Direxion funds), which I thought they said would not be included because of their speculative nature.
Only 4 non-leveraged, non-inverse Direxion ETFs are available commission-free. The other 70+ are not commission-free. They list them near the end with the bulk of the ProShares ETFs that are not commission-free.
You're right, I was reading it wrong, thanks for the correction. Looks like the last 3 pages are the etfs that are not commission free.
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Commission Free Non-Vanguard ETFs Now Live

Post by ReformedSpender »

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

"We've always had a relentless drive to keep your costs low. In fact, you haven't had to pay a commission to buy or sell Vanguard ETFs® for almost a decade. Today we expanded that to include about 1,800 ETFs (from a universe of around 2,000) from more than 100 other companies.* Why? Because at Vanguard we're committed to making sure you have your best chance for investment success."

*Commission-free trading of Vanguard ETFs applies to trades placed both online and by phone. Commission-free trading of non-Vanguard ETFs excludes leveraged and inverse ETFs and applies only to trades placed online; most clients will pay a commission to buy or sell non-Vanguard ETFs by phone. Commission-free trading of non-Vanguard ETFs also excludes 401(k) participants using the Self-Directed Brokerage Option; see your plan's current commission schedule. Vanguard Brokerage reserves the right to change the non-Vanguard ETFs included in these offers at any time. All ETFs are subject to management fees and expenses; refer to each ETF's prospectus for more information. Account service fees may also apply. All ETF sales are subject to a securities transaction fee. See the Vanguard Brokerage Services® commission and fee schedules for full details.

See full list here:

https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/etfcfl.pdf

:beer
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by jhfenton »

asif408 wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:36 am
jhfenton wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:33 am
asif408 wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:24 am Kind of surprised, based on the list I downloaded from the website, that they do have 3x leveraged and short funds available (e.g., Direxion funds), which I thought they said would not be included because of their speculative nature.
Only 4 non-leveraged, non-inverse Direxion ETFs are available commission-free. The other 70+ are not commission-free. They list them near the end with the bulk of the ProShares ETFs that are not commission-free.
You're right, I was reading it wrong, thanks for the correction. Looks like the last 3 pages are the etfs that are not commission free.
:beer They did take a pretty liberal line as promised. There are even two ProShares VIX futures ETFs available commission-free. Only explicitly leveraged and explicitly short/inverse ETFs seem to be excluded from the list. Beyond those, even horribly complicated, gimmicky, and expensive ETFs are included.
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Re: Commission Free Non-Vanguard ETFs Now Live

Post by SteelyEyed »

Well, the benefits of having higher balances at Vanguard keep getting reduced. Sorry, but that's the only negative thing I could think of for this. It's good news.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by SlowMovingInvestor »

It'll be interesting to see how other brokerage companies react. VG is now offering Schwab and Fido ETFs too.

TDAM dropped its VG ETFs last Dec. Etrade added several VG ETFs a few months back.

Will other firms feel compelled to start offering more ETFs transaction free (unless there are contractual reasons they can't do it) ?

Also, what are the trading and holding restrictions on the ETFs (if any) ?
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by TIAX »

SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:21 am It'll be interesting to see how other brokerage companies react. VG is now offering Schwab and Fido ETFs too.

TDAM dropped its VG ETFs last Dec. Etrade added several VG ETFs a few months back.

Will other firms feel compelled to start offering more ETFs transaction free (unless there are contractual reasons they can't do it) ?

Also, what are the trading and holding restrictions on the ETFs (if any) ?
Many of us have contacted other brokerages such as TDAM to get them to offer Vanguard ETFs commission-free.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by jhfenton »

SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:21 am Also, what are the trading and holding restrictions on the ETFs (if any) ?
I looked, and I don't see anything on trading restrictions. At the moment I can't even find a reference to the pre-existing restrictions on buying and selling Vanguard ETFs more than 24 times in the same account within 12 months.
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Re: Commission Free Non-Vanguard ETFs Now Live

Post by ray.james »

On going discussion here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=252991
When in doubt, http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939
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Re: Commission Free Non-Vanguard ETFs Now Live

Post by G-Force »

SteelyEyed wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:12 am Well, the benefits of having higher balances at Vanguard keep getting reduced. Sorry, but that's the only negative thing I could think of for this. It's good news.
If you are Flagship, you get a free checking account (Advantage Account) with Vanguard . There are still benefits to higher balances. :)
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by LadyGeek »

I merged ReformedSpender's thread into the on-going discussion.
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Re: Commission Free Non-Vanguard ETFs Now Live

Post by MichCPA »

G-Force wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:41 pm
SteelyEyed wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:12 am Well, the benefits of having higher balances at Vanguard keep getting reduced. Sorry, but that's the only negative thing I could think of for this. It's good news.
If you are Flagship, you get a free checking account (Advantage Account) with Vanguard . There are still benefits to higher balances. :)
If your balance is high enough you get the $2 (or free) trades on stocks and non-VG mutual funds. That is a bigger deal than the checking account. Fido and Schwab have checking accounts, but unless I am mistaken they are still at $5/trade.
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Re: Commission Free Non-Vanguard ETFs Now Live

Post by Outafter20 »

MichCPA wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:17 pm
G-Force wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:41 pm
SteelyEyed wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:12 am Well, the benefits of having higher balances at Vanguard keep getting reduced. Sorry, but that's the only negative thing I could think of for this. It's good news.
If you are Flagship, you get a free checking account (Advantage Account) with Vanguard . There are still benefits to higher balances. :)
If your balance is high enough you get the $2 (or free) trades on stocks and non-VG mutual funds. That is a bigger deal than the checking account. Fido and Schwab have checking accounts, but unless I am mistaken they are still at $5/trade.
Those free trades in Flagship are good for non VG mutual funds?
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by caklim00 »

Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:37 am
tj wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:45 am
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:

MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental

Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
Doesn't IJS have even more volume?
Yes, IJS has much more volume but has an expense ratio 10bps higher (.25% vs .15%). Since SLYV has historically been less tax efficient, my preference would by SLYV in a tax-deferred account and IJS in a taxable account.

The S&P 600 funds have an end-around quality screen although S&P doesn't explicitly call it that. I would consider the 600 value fund on par with Dimensional or Bridgeway Omni small value although the advisors that use these funds would disgree.
FNDC and SLYV (both of which I own) are fee free so assuming FNDE and MDYV. Curious why you use FNDE over DGS though... I'm guessing you use MDYV as a proxy for LV.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Theoretical »

FNDE is quite a bit cheaper on the ER side (almost half and possible to go lower in the future) and it’s more suitable for a taxable account than the yield-heavy DGS.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Jiu Jitsu Fighter »

caklim00 wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:44 pm
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:37 am
tj wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:45 am
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:

MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental

Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
Doesn't IJS have even more volume?
Yes, IJS has much more volume but has an expense ratio 10bps higher (.25% vs .15%). Since SLYV has historically been less tax efficient, my preference would by SLYV in a tax-deferred account and IJS in a taxable account.

The S&P 600 funds have an end-around quality screen although S&P doesn't explicitly call it that. I would consider the 600 value fund on par with Dimensional or Bridgeway Omni small value although the advisors that use these funds would disgree.
FNDC and SLYV (both of which I own) are fee free so assuming FNDE and MDYV. Curious why you use FNDE over DGS though... I'm guessing you use MDYV as a proxy for LV.
Re: MDYV - I have a stronger conviction for the value premium then the size premium so I hedge my bets a little bit by moving up(down) the CRSP deciles although MDYV is still quite small for a mid-cap fund. VOE or RPV are better proxies for LV as the median market caps are much larger than MDYV but not to the level of VTV where the value premium is dubious. Once you move past the 1st decile of CRSP, you get a bump in the expected premium, but the premium doesn't follow a linear path (ex. Decile 5 should have a larger value premium that Decile 4 and 6 greater than 5 but not in the same order or magnitude).

Re: FNDE over DGS - sure if there was a small/mid EM value fund (I know there are a couple of other ones but for certain reasons avoid), I would prefer it over FNDE. However, imo, I prefer FNDE's methodology over DGS. I don't like the weighting by dividends. Sure, you get a value tilt, but it results in weird country weighings and there is no reason to favor a company that pays a large dividend over a company that buys its stock back. Again, I have a stronger conviction of value than size.

Hope that answers your questions. Obviously, these are my opinions and certainly debatable.

JJF
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any recommended non Vanguard ETFs?

Post by Socrates »

I am thinking international as I use index funds through Vanguard for total market and small cap value
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Re: any recommended non Vanguard ETFs?

Post by gas_balloon »

Socrates28 wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:22 pm I am thinking international as I use index funds through Vanguard for total market and small cap value
I am strongly considering IJS to replace VBR/VSIAX when the next TLH opportunity shows up. Despite the higher ER (0.25 vs 0.07), I think IJS is a better small/value fund.
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@ walletless

Post by Socrates »

what makes the IJS ETF a better small cap value fund?

by the way, I found your wallet
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Re: @ walletless

Post by gas_balloon »

Socrates28 wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:53 pm what makes the IJS ETF a better small cap value fund?

by the way, I found your wallet
VBR/VSIAX has fewer small and value funds - it is closer to a mid-cap/blend value fund.
See VBR holding style: http://portfolios.morningstar.com/fund/ ... ture=en_US (22% in small/value box)
See IJS holding style: http://portfolios.morningstar.com/fund/ ... ture=en_US (40% in small/value box)
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Re: @ walletless

Post by Theoretical »

Socrates28 wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:53 pm what makes the IJS ETF a better small cap value fund?

by the way, I found your wallet
Deeper value loadings, smaller cap, and a well-constructed index that screens out the completely unprofitable companies. In addition, you have far more consistency in index choice and structure history than the VG fund.
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Re: @ walletless

Post by Jiu Jitsu Fighter »

Socrates28 wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:53 pm what makes the IJS ETF a better small cap value fund?

by the way, I found your wallet
The median market cap is smaller, its slightly more valuey, and it has an implicit screen for quality via S&P's methodology.
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thank you walletless

Post by Socrates »

gonna check that out
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by caklim00 »

Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:11 pm
caklim00 wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:44 pm
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:37 am
tj wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:45 am
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:

MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental

Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
Doesn't IJS have even more volume?
Yes, IJS has much more volume but has an expense ratio 10bps higher (.25% vs .15%). Since SLYV has historically been less tax efficient, my preference would by SLYV in a tax-deferred account and IJS in a taxable account.

The S&P 600 funds have an end-around quality screen although S&P doesn't explicitly call it that. I would consider the 600 value fund on par with Dimensional or Bridgeway Omni small value although the advisors that use these funds would disgree.
FNDC and SLYV (both of which I own) are fee free so assuming FNDE and MDYV. Curious why you use FNDE over DGS though... I'm guessing you use MDYV as a proxy for LV.
Re: MDYV - I have a stronger conviction for the value premium then the size premium so I hedge my bets a little bit by moving up(down) the CRSP deciles although MDYV is still quite small for a mid-cap fund. VOE or RPV are better proxies for LV as the median market caps are much larger than MDYV but not to the level of VTV where the value premium is dubious. Once you move past the 1st decile of CRSP, you get a bump in the expected premium, but the premium doesn't follow a linear path (ex. Decile 5 should have a larger value premium that Decile 4 and 6 greater than 5 but not in the same order or magnitude).

Re: FNDE over DGS - sure if there was a small/mid EM value fund (I know there are a couple of other ones but for certain reasons avoid), I would prefer it over FNDE. However, imo, I prefer FNDE's methodology over DGS. I don't like the weighting by dividends. Sure, you get a value tilt, but it results in weird country weighings and there is no reason to favor a company that pays a large dividend over a company that buys its stock back. Again, I have a stronger conviction of value than size.

Hope that answers your questions. Obviously, these are my opinions and certainly debatable.

JJF
You got me thinking so I pulled the Market Cap from M*
DGS: 1,454 Mil
EMGF: 12,226 Mil
FNDE: 33,316 Mil

FNDE actually is higher market cap than VWO and over 5% of the fund is Samsung.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by caklim00 »

Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:11 pm
caklim00 wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:44 pm
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:37 am
tj wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:45 am
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:

MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental

Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
Doesn't IJS have even more volume?
Yes, IJS has much more volume but has an expense ratio 10bps higher (.25% vs .15%). Since SLYV has historically been less tax efficient, my preference would by SLYV in a tax-deferred account and IJS in a taxable account.

The S&P 600 funds have an end-around quality screen although S&P doesn't explicitly call it that. I would consider the 600 value fund on par with Dimensional or Bridgeway Omni small value although the advisors that use these funds would disgree.
FNDC and SLYV (both of which I own) are fee free so assuming FNDE and MDYV. Curious why you use FNDE over DGS though... I'm guessing you use MDYV as a proxy for LV.
Re: MDYV - I have a stronger conviction for the value premium then the size premium so I hedge my bets a little bit by moving up(down) the CRSP deciles although MDYV is still quite small for a mid-cap fund. VOE or RPV are better proxies for LV as the median market caps are much larger than MDYV but not to the level of VTV where the value premium is dubious. Once you move past the 1st decile of CRSP, you get a bump in the expected premium, but the premium doesn't follow a linear path (ex. Decile 5 should have a larger value premium that Decile 4 and 6 greater than 5 but not in the same order or magnitude).

Re: FNDE over DGS - sure if there was a small/mid EM value fund (I know there are a couple of other ones but for certain reasons avoid), I would prefer it over FNDE. However, imo, I prefer FNDE's methodology over DGS. I don't like the weighting by dividends. Sure, you get a value tilt, but it results in weird country weighings and there is no reason to favor a company that pays a large dividend over a company that buys its stock back. Again, I have a stronger conviction of value than size.

Hope that answers your questions. Obviously, these are my opinions and certainly debatable.

JJF
You got me thinking so I pulled the Market Cap from M*
DGS: 1,454 Mil
EMGF: 12,226 Mil
FNDE: 33,316 Mil

FNDE actually is higher market cap than VWO and over 5% of the fund is Samsung.
Theoretical
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Theoretical »

If you have the tax advantaged space, 50/50 FNDE/DGS really evens out the country tilts and FNDE’s concentration.
Jiu Jitsu Fighter
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Jiu Jitsu Fighter »

caklim00 wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:24 pm
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:11 pm
caklim00 wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:44 pm
Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:37 am
tj wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:45 am

Doesn't IJS have even more volume?
Yes, IJS has much more volume but has an expense ratio 10bps higher (.25% vs .15%). Since SLYV has historically been less tax efficient, my preference would by SLYV in a tax-deferred account and IJS in a taxable account.

The S&P 600 funds have an end-around quality screen although S&P doesn't explicitly call it that. I would consider the 600 value fund on par with Dimensional or Bridgeway Omni small value although the advisors that use these funds would disgree.
FNDC and SLYV (both of which I own) are fee free so assuming FNDE and MDYV. Curious why you use FNDE over DGS though... I'm guessing you use MDYV as a proxy for LV.
Re: MDYV - I have a stronger conviction for the value premium then the size premium so I hedge my bets a little bit by moving up(down) the CRSP deciles although MDYV is still quite small for a mid-cap fund. VOE or RPV are better proxies for LV as the median market caps are much larger than MDYV but not to the level of VTV where the value premium is dubious. Once you move past the 1st decile of CRSP, you get a bump in the expected premium, but the premium doesn't follow a linear path (ex. Decile 5 should have a larger value premium that Decile 4 and 6 greater than 5 but not in the same order or magnitude).

Re: FNDE over DGS - sure if there was a small/mid EM value fund (I know there are a couple of other ones but for certain reasons avoid), I would prefer it over FNDE. However, imo, I prefer FNDE's methodology over DGS. I don't like the weighting by dividends. Sure, you get a value tilt, but it results in weird country weighings and there is no reason to favor a company that pays a large dividend over a company that buys its stock back. Again, I have a stronger conviction of value than size.

Hope that answers your questions. Obviously, these are my opinions and certainly debatable.

JJF
You got me thinking so I pulled the Market Cap from M*
DGS: 1,454 Mil
EMGF: 12,226 Mil
FNDE: 33,316 Mil

FNDE actually is higher market cap than VWO and over 5% of the fund is Samsung.
Yes, FNDE is a large-cap EM fund, and unlike VWO, it considers South Korea an EM country. Furthermore, it weights the companies fundamentally resulting in the large position in Samsung. EM is 1/8 of my equities so Samsung ends up roughly 0.4% of my equities which I'm fine with. Again, there are a few issues with the Russell RAFI methodology, but I prefer it over others for EM.

EMGF is an interesting fund as well as all of the iShares multifactor funds, but I still focus on value and to a lesser extent size as I think these are the factors that are less likely to be arbitraged away since they are mostly due to a risk-based narrative as opposed to something like momentum which is, imo, mostly behavioral-based.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Jiu Jitsu Fighter »

Theoretical wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:19 pm If you have the tax advantaged space, 50/50 FNDE/DGS really evens out the country tilts and FNDE’s concentration.
That's a good point, but EM is 1/8 of my equities. I'm set for now with one fund. I don't want to split it so I have 1/16 positions or I'll end up with a Paul Merriman portfolio. Nothing against Paul as it works for him, but I like to keep things simpler while still maintaining a value/small tilt.

In theory, not a bad idea at all, though.
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UpsetRaptor
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by UpsetRaptor »

When this went live the other day, the news was mostly buried beneath the headlines of Fidelity's Zero funds going live and JP Morgan Chase's free trading announcement.

What a great time to be an investor.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Bulgogi Head »

I sold IXUS last week and was charged $.09 commission. Is the vanguard commission free only for buying ETFs and not selling?
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Outafter20 »

Bulgogi Head wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:49 am I sold IXUS last week and was charged $.09 commission. Is the vanguard commission free only for buying ETFs and not selling?
That is the SEC fee. It doesn't go to Vanguard.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Bulgogi Head »

Outafter20 wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:57 am
Bulgogi Head wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:49 am I sold IXUS last week and was charged $.09 commission. Is the vanguard commission free only for buying ETFs and not selling?
That is the SEC fee. It doesn't go to Vanguard.
Thanks. Is this the fee I’m charged for selling any ETF? On any brokerage?
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by Outafter20 »

Bulgogi Head wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:00 am
Outafter20 wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:57 am
Bulgogi Head wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:49 am I sold IXUS last week and was charged $.09 commission. Is the vanguard commission free only for buying ETFs and not selling?
That is the SEC fee. It doesn't go to Vanguard.
Thanks. Is this the fee I’m charged for selling any ETF? On any brokerage?
Yes, you would pay the same amount at any brokerage. It is not considered a commission.
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gas_balloon
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by gas_balloon »

Outafter20 wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:03 am
Bulgogi Head wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:00 am
Outafter20 wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:57 am
Bulgogi Head wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:49 am I sold IXUS last week and was charged $.09 commission. Is the vanguard commission free only for buying ETFs and not selling?
That is the SEC fee. It doesn't go to Vanguard.
Thanks. Is this the fee I’m charged for selling any ETF? On any brokerage?
Yes, you would pay the same amount at any brokerage. It is not considered a commission.
Somehow I've never paid such a fee when trading vanguard ETF in vanguard.com
ftobin
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by ftobin »

walletless wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:57 am Somehow I've never paid such a fee when trading vanguard ETF in vanguard.com
Sellers pay the fee.
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Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free

Post by jhfenton »

walletless wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:57 am
Outafter20 wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:03 am
Bulgogi Head wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:00 am
Outafter20 wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:57 am
Bulgogi Head wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:49 am I sold IXUS last week and was charged $.09 commission. Is the vanguard commission free only for buying ETFs and not selling?
That is the SEC fee. It doesn't go to Vanguard.
Thanks. Is this the fee I’m charged for selling any ETF? On any brokerage?
Yes, you would pay the same amount at any brokerage. It is not considered a commission.
Somehow I've never paid such a fee when trading vanguard ETF in vanguard.com
If you've sold an ETF or stock on any brokerage in the US, you've paid it. If you've only purchased stocks and ETFs, then you haven't paid it yet.

The rate is currently 0.0000130 ($13 per million), but it can change once or twice each year.
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