Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

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Cara
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Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Cara » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:44 pm

I've been with Vanguard for decades, and have loved their philosophy and how they've helped me achieve early retirement (not yet, but soon).

But recent issues - I guess you'd call them "customer service" issues - are making me think of switching. I might hold my same funds, but I'd like to work with a company that's a little more technically-advanced, I guess. Some of those issues are:
1) Don't like the way the IRA "upgrade" went down -- that things changed that I didn't feel adequately warned about, and that I cannot switch back from the new brokerage account to a "regular" IRA, now that I've gone through the conversion.
2) From that, don't like that I can no longer do automatic exchanges.
3) Today, found out that I can't even set up an automatic "sweep" from the money in my MM fund (direct deposited from my paycheck, monthly) into a pre-selected fund. I can't say, on the 3rd of each month, move 100% of the money market fund into Total Stock Index, for example.

There's just a lot that I seem to have to do MANUALLY, with Vanguard. And they don't seem to be interested in the complaints of their customers.

Person-to-person customer service is usually pretty good (though I've recently been given directly-contradicting info from 2 different reps on the same day), but I prefer to communicate electronically whenever possible, not person-to-person.

So - if I want to choose between Schwab and Fidelity (both of whom have local offices in about the same area near me), just to continue doing business with Vanguard funds, which would be most cost-effective for me and best, in terms of maximizing their IT capabilities?

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Alexa9
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Alexa9 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:48 pm

Fine! But no more admiral shares for you!

Cara
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Cara » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:54 pm

See, that - right there. I hadn't even thought of that.

123
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by 123 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:58 pm

If you move to Schwab or Fidelity and you continue to favor Vanguard mutual funds you face high transaction costs for each purchase (Something like $60 to $75 for each purchase). ETFs can be had for the normal stock purchase/sale fees. Of course you can move to similar Schwab or Fidelity funds to avoid fees.

A disadvantage of Schwab is that free cash balances in accounts only earn bank money market rates. If you want one of their higher Schwab MMFs you have to do the actual purchase/sale routine to get them. Fidelity lets you have a default Fidelity MMF for cash balances.
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onourway
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by onourway » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:59 pm

I'm not sure you'll find much respite in switching. I use all 3 platforms and they each have their good and bad points.

#1) You lose whether you stay with Vanguard or you switch. You can't go back to the 'old' platform no matter what. Technology marches forward. It's not possible to continue to maintain an outdated platform for a tiny minority of users.

#2) Not exactly sure what you mean here

#3) Can't do this with Schwab either. In fact at Schwab you can't even have your paycheck deposited directly into a MM fund. The Sweep account is a bank account with a nominal (~0.18%) interest rate. You must manually buy shares of MM accounts. Further I see no option at Schwab to automatically invest the entire amount of your sweep. You must specify a dollar amount.

I will tell you that Vanguard is listening. A number of us here are submitting regular feedback to Vanguard through an ongoing consumer survey program they are running and we are already seeing the results of that feedback in actual implementation. They are listening.

Cara
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Cara » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:02 pm

Just hearing that they're listening makes a difference.

I am probably most disappointed in the loss of the ability to make automatic exchanges between funds in my Roth and Traditional IRA accounts, both of which were "upgraded" to brokerage accounts. If that ability is returned (and I do not know why it would be taken away in the first place, if I want to exchange strictly between Vanguard funds), I will be assuaged.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm

Where will you go when you have customer service issues at Fidelity or Schwab or <insert broker here>?

I continue to trust Vanguard to have investors best interest at heart. Growing pain. IT issues. Bugs. Those things happen at all companies and technologies.

Maybe venting will help. Don't just do something. Stand there.
"We are not here to please, but to provoke thoughtfulness." --Unknown Boglehead

Working2notWork
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Working2notWork » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm

Cara wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:44 pm

3) Today, found out that I can't even set up an automatic "sweep" from the money in my MM fund (direct deposited from my paycheck, monthly) into a pre-selected fund. I can't say, on the 3rd of each month, move 100% of the money market fund into Total Stock Index, for example.
I am essentially doing this now with my funds. I have the money hit my personal account and then setup an automatic purchase of Total Stock Market Index through the VG site.

I think you would have to inform your payroll to not deposit to VG anymore and put it in your personal account. Then setup a reoccurring transfer either twice a month, bi-weekly, once a week, etc...

Unless I am missing something this is def. doable.

afan
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by afan » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:06 pm

Are we talking about retirement assets mainly? Or taxable?

For taxable, you are probably handcuffed to holding your mutual funds. If you move your mutual funds then you would miss out on being in Admiral. Except that there are reports of people managing to buy or keep Admiral mutual funds held at outside brokers.

If you have ETFs you can move them from Vanguard to Schwab, or elsewhere, with no tax or other consequences. Then you get the good part of Vanguard, the funds, without having to deal with them for service.

You would have to pay commissions to keep buying Vanguard ETFs, but the commissions would be low. Or you could go with no commission ETFs from Schwab, I assume Fidelity has some comparable no commission ETFs available, but I don't know which ones.

We are simply holding with Vanguard. Perhaps been lucky, perhaps just have not had to do anything that they could screw up, but we have not have customer service problems. We also figure that the complaints are due to explosive growth outpacing the ability to design systems and train people to keep up. That explosion seems to be slowing down and they have had a chance to adapt. So we are expecting their service to get better.
It used to be fine.
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Chip
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Chip » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:28 pm

If I'm not mistaken you can convert Admiral shares to the equivalent ETFs (if they exist - not all funds have an ETF share class), then transfer the ETFs to another brokerage. The conversion is not a taxable event. I think the expense ratios on most of the ETFs are equal to Admiral expense ratios.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by FPS_dapdap » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:46 pm

Alexa9 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:48 pm
Fine! But no more admiral shares for you!
Can you please explain what "admiral shares" are? I've been on this forum for awhile but still don't know the difference. I have my IRA account through Charles Schwab so im not that knowledgeable in Vanguard.

Wakefield1
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Wakefield1 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:57 pm

FPS_dapdap wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:46 pm
Alexa9 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:48 pm
Fine! But no more admiral shares for you!
Can you please explain what "admiral shares" are? I've been on this forum for awhile but still don't know the difference. I have my IRA account through Charles Schwab so im not that knowledgeable in Vanguard.
Simply a class of the same fund with a lower expense ratio (you have to have a higher minimum holding to qualify for it)
(Expense ratio of "Admiral shares" as compared to "Investor shares" in the same fund,say Equity Income Fund.
Last edited by Wakefield1 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:58 pm

bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm
Where will you go when you have customer service issues at Fidelity or Schwab or <insert broker here>?
He mentioned that he has both brick and mortar offices of both of these easily available. So to answer for what I have actually done.....I went to the office and had them do what I wanted done. They always did cheerfully.

Sorta tough to do that with Vanguard.

(I have accounts at Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab and TDAmeritrade. Except for Vanguard, all the rest have real offices near me)
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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Alexa9
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Alexa9 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:06 pm

FPS_dapdap wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:46 pm
Alexa9 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:48 pm
Fine! But no more admiral shares for you!
Can you please explain what "admiral shares" are? I've been on this forum for awhile but still don't know the difference. I have my IRA account through Charles Schwab so im not that knowledgeable in Vanguard.
It's for premium elite VIP investors only! 8-)
Total stock market VTSAX ER .04 ($10k minimum at Vanguard for admiral shares) VTSMX ER .14 (investor shares)
10 basis points is nothing to scoff at although you can use ETF's but they have a few small drawbacks but most people don't mind

EyeDee
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Vanguard Platforms

Post by EyeDee » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:11 pm

.
Onourway,

Unless Vanguard intends to force people to leave Vanguard, they will have to keep the 'old' platform for a tiny minority of users indefinitely. Even if they somehow force or entice us users who do not want to upgrade to do so, they have to keep the mutual fund only platform for people who work for financial companies that do not allow their workers to have brokerages at Vanguard (they exist as they have posted on this board in the past). Ironically the more they push off the old platform format the smaller the number of users will become, but it will have to be maintained for those people unless they force people to leave Vanguard.

I can easily see why Vanguard wants to get rid of the situation where people have a mixture of brokerage and mutual fund platforms, which is a third type of platform which I can see how Vanguard can probably get people forced or entice to drop, but I do not understand why they want mutual fund only people to convert. Yes some people might change their minds later and want to use a brokerage, but many people have no need for a brokerage and Vanguard should allow people to set up new mutual fund only accounts (of course that would work better if they make it clear at set-up time the restrictions a mutual fund only account has).

If Vanguard would have at least waited to push the conversions until the new accounts had all the features of the old accounts we would have less of these kinds of conversations.
onourway wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:59 pm
I'm not sure you'll find much respite in switching. I use all 3 platforms and they each have their good and bad points.

#1) You lose whether you stay with Vanguard or you switch. You can't go back to the 'old' platform no matter what. Technology marches forward. It's not possible to continue to maintain an outdated platform for a tiny minority of users.
. . .
Randy

Miriam2
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Miriam2 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:15 pm

Cara wrote: I am probably most disappointed in the loss of the ability to make automatic exchanges between funds in my Roth and Traditional IRA accounts, both of which were "upgraded" to brokerage accounts. If that ability is returned (and I do not know why it would be taken away in the first place, if I want to exchange strictly between Vanguard funds), I will be assuaged.
Somewhere in the inner recesses of my little brain I thought I read that this and other rules of Vanguard brokerage accounts are set by federal law industry-wide and are not specifically Vanguard rules. Does anyone else know about this?

livesoft
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by livesoft » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:16 pm

What if Vanguard charged $20 a year to keep the old platform in the same way that it charges low-balance accounts for mailed statements?

Would you switch?

As for automated investing, if one goes from checking directly to the fund and not to the settlement account, doesn't that work? At least the Vanguard.com web site suggests very strongly that that works.
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retiredjg
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by retiredjg » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:20 pm

If you want to keep Vanguard funds, stay where you are and find ways to work around the things you don't like. Yes, you could get Vanguard ETFs somewhere else with the same ER as the Admiral Funds, but that means dealing with ETFS and it means transaction fees.

The whole point of the Vanguard funds is to keep costs low so why pay transaction fees to hold them?

If I ever get sick of Vanguard, I'll move to Fidelity and use their excellent index mutual fund line up and call it good. I will not go to Schwab because their index mutual fund lineup is puny and I don't want to use ETFs (which they have a nice stable of).

Cara
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Cara » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:22 pm

onourway wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:59 pm
It's not possible to continue to maintain an outdated platform for a tiny minority of users.
See, this is one of the things bugging me. They ARE maintaining the old platform. My husband's IRAs are still on the old platform. The platform is there. Why can't I go back to it? I have nothing but Vanguard funds (no ETFs anymore) in my IRAs. Just ticks me off when things that ARE technically possible (maybe not without programming - I get that) are dismissed as "not possible."

Cara
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Cara » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:26 pm

bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm
Where will you go when you have customer service issues at Fidelity or Schwab or <insert broker here>?
That's why I'm asking. I'm hoping to find a place where there are, perhaps, fewer customer service issues. I'm searching these forums. I know I'm not the only one.
bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm
Those things happen at all companies and technologies.
And how those companies respond to them determines whether they keep or lose customers. I have not been made aware, by anyone at Vanguard (did I mention I've been with them for decades?) that they're aware of any issues or doing anything to improve my "experience."
bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm
Maybe venting will help. Don't just do something. Stand there.
Don't assume I'm just "standing there." I'm venting in an effort to find input from others in a similar situation, in order to help me make a decision. I have made my unhappiness known to Vanguard, and have not gotten satisfactory responses. I'm basically just told "it is what it is."

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by retiredjg » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:28 pm

Well, they are phasing it out so the door has to be one way. Eventually it will be gone.

Apparently all new accounts must be on the brokerage platform. I'm hiding out in a corner of the mutual fund platform, resisting all requests to "update". :wink:

Cara
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Cara » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:37 pm

I just set up the direct deposit. There's some consideration (won't go into details here) that is making me want my retirement funds to stay completely in my name - from paycheck to IRA in my name. But I've got a checking account in my name so I guess I could rollback that direct deposit and go from Pay to Checking to Vanguard. I had been hoping to cut out that middle step, just in the interest of simplicity and time.

I have 2 IRA accounts, recently moved to ALL Vanguard funds. I am mostly at the Admiral level. I also have a non-retirement brokerage, but that was for 'experimentation' only, until a recent inheritance. I might actually just take that away from Vanguard, to see if I like Fidelity better.

To everyone I didn't directly reply to in my previous quote -- thank you for your feedback and the valuable information. I'll probably sit tight for a bit in the hope that Vanguard ups their technology game. This is not a new concern of mine - their website has caused me some headaches for some time, now, and I rely heavily on the website because I don't have time, during their hours, to conduct business with them, most of the time.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:45 pm

Cara wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:26 pm
bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm
Where will you go when you have customer service issues at Fidelity or Schwab or <insert broker here>?
That's why I'm asking. I'm hoping to find a place where there are, perhaps, fewer customer service issues. I'm searching these forums. I know I'm not the only one.
bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm
Those things happen at all companies and technologies.
And how those companies respond to them determines whether they keep or lose customers. I have not been made aware, by anyone at Vanguard (did I mention I've been with them for decades?) that they're aware of any issues or doing anything to improve my "experience."
bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:05 pm
Maybe venting will help. Don't just do something. Stand there.
Don't assume I'm just "standing there." I'm venting in an effort to find input from others in a similar situation, in order to help me make a decision. I have made my unhappiness known to Vanguard, and have not gotten satisfactory responses. I'm basically just told "it is what it is."
My primary point is/was, switching brokers is a much bigger deal than a 2 step transfer or going from a previous account to the new unified brokerage account. Vanguard may not be optimal. Fidelity and Schwab may not be either and it will take some effort to switch and re-learn. Especially if you want to stay with Vanguard funds. I could have just said "yes, just move to Fidelity". My quote in my signature is why we are here.
Last edited by bloom2708 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We are not here to please, but to provoke thoughtfulness." --Unknown Boglehead

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cfs
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by cfs » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:51 pm

Maybe it is just ME, but if I had issues with X company I would take my money and not just walk but run to another company, second opinion not required nor desired, I would just do it. Your money, your portfolio, your decision. To everyone leaving X company, good luck, y gracias por leer / cfs
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by retiredjg » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:08 pm

cfs wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:51 pm
Maybe it is just ME, but if I had issues with X company I would take my money and not just walk but run to another company, second opinion not required nor desired, I would just do it. Your money, your portfolio, your decision.
Well yes....but....that could be frying pan to fire. :shock: No reason to not check out other places before taking the leap. :happy

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cfs
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by cfs » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:23 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:08 pm
cfs wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:51 pm
Maybe it is just ME, but if I had issues with X company I would take my money and not just walk but run to another company, second opinion not required nor desired, I would just do it. Your money, your portfolio, your decision.
Well yes....but....that could be frying pan to fire. :shock: No reason to not check out other places before taking the leap. :happy
Ha! Concur, y gracias por leer ~cfs~
~ Member of the Active Retired Force since 2014 ~

peppers
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by peppers » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:49 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:28 pm


Apparently all new accounts must be on the brokerage platform. I'm hiding out in a corner of the mutual fund platform, resisting all requests to "update". :wink:
Shhhhh......the corner is getting crowded. :wink:
"..the cavalry ain't comin' kid, you're on your own..."

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by retiredjg » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:09 pm

peppers wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:49 pm
Shhhhh......the corner is getting crowded. :wink:
Oh...sorry...was that you? :shock:

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Vanguard Platforms

Post by EyeDee » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:48 pm

.
Livesoft,

We would be willing to pay $20 a year to keep the mutual fund only platform, especially if it included a guarantee that my wife or I could open a mutual fund only individual taxable account when the time came that our taxable joint account had to be replaced because one of us died.
livesoft wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:16 pm
What if Vanguard charged $20 a year to keep the old platform in the same way that it charges low-balance accounts for mailed statements?

Would you switch?

. . .
Randy

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by keepingitsimple » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:57 pm

123 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:58 pm
If you move to Schwab or Fidelity and you continue to favor Vanguard mutual funds you face high transaction costs for each purchase (Something like $60 to $75 for each purchase). ETFs can be had for the normal stock purchase/sale fees. Of course you can move to similar Schwab or Fidelity funds to avoid fees.
We recently opened a Schwab account and have been very satisfied with their customer service. I like that there is an online chat feature available 24/7 that is very convenient for getting answers to questions. The chat feature is available on their homepage, so you can likely get answers to your questions regarding automatic deposits etc with a simple chat.

Regarding high fees for Vanguard Mutual Funds through Schwab, this may be able to be waived. They have waived the fee for our account, so anytime we purchase shares of a Vanguard fund the $76 fee will be waived (no minimum purchase, no required frequency for purchases). There may be a certain asset level required, I'm uncertain.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by MrPotatoHead » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:46 pm

Cara wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:44 pm
I've been with Vanguard for decades, and have loved their philosophy and how they've helped me achieve early retirement (not yet, but soon).

But recent issues - I guess you'd call them "customer service" issues - are making me think of switching. I might hold my same funds, but I'd like to work with a company that's a little more technically-advanced...
I have funds at Vanguard, Fidelity, and Schwab, among others. The only one I regret in totality is Vanguard, and my reasons now go beyond just customer service to overall competence. Unfortunately that is where I initially parked my taxable account. To me it is not a matter where Vanguard is a notch below Schwab, Fidelity, or even TDAmeritrade, but more they are several tiers below them in regard to customer service(my experience based observation).

My opinion is Vanguard's customer service issues are endemic to Vanguard's corporate culture. And corporate cultures are notoriously hard to change and few companies are successful at it. I just do not see Vanguard ever becoming customer service oriented, where as Schwab and Fidelity are companies that pride themselves, internally, with their customer service.

Moreover, I simply do not see Vanguard as having the impetus to do anything beyond the bare minimum to enhance customer service. My guess is, as time unfolds, places like Schwab and Fidelity will expand via acquisition and by differentiating themselves with customer service. And Vanguard will simply aim their pitch as the lowest cost provider of 401K plans, with minimal bells and whistles.

My advice, is if you do not have taxable accounts with Vanguard, pull the plug. Schwab and Fidelity both have offerings with lower ERs and no trading costs. Or you can always transfer your assets to Schwab or Fidelity (if they can go as etfs so much the better and direct all disbursements to a cash account and reinvest in assets at Schwab or Fidelity. In Fidelity's case I would take a strong looks at their line-up of commission free etfs, particularly ishares.

Lastly, you owe it to yourself to look at Fidelity and Schwab banking products. Hard to beat Fido's 2% cash back credit card. Both have outstanding checking services.

To Vanguard's credit, I believe they are the reason Schwab and Fido both have such low cost index offerings. But that horse has left the corral, looking to the future I see customer service as the main differentiator.
Last edited by MrPotatoHead on Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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sergeant
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by sergeant » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:12 pm

The good thing with this divorce is that you don't have to give Vanguard half of your assets.
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by mcraepat9 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:15 pm

sergeant wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:12 pm
The good thing with this divorce is that you don't have to give Vanguard half of your assets.
zing
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

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BL
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by BL » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:31 pm

AFAIK, Vanguard does not charge anything when you transfer out, unlike most of the other brokerages.

No need to stay if you are unhappy, but you might end up unhappy elsewhere, too.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by FPS_dapdap » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:54 am

Alexa9 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:06 pm
FPS_dapdap wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:46 pm
Alexa9 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:48 pm
Fine! But no more admiral shares for you!
Can you please explain what "admiral shares" are? I've been on this forum for awhile but still don't know the difference. I have my IRA account through Charles Schwab so im not that knowledgeable in Vanguard.
It's for premium elite VIP investors only! 8-)
Total stock market VTSAX ER .04 ($10k minimum at Vanguard for admiral shares) VTSMX ER .14 (investor shares)
10 basis points is nothing to scoff at although you can use ETF's but they have a few small drawbacks but most people don't mind
What are the few small drawbacks?

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by dbr » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:15 am

Alexa9 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:48 pm
Fine! But no more admiral shares for you!
That is not entirely true. For example I hold VAIPX at Schwab. The rules are not completely clear, but it may only be Admiral classes of index funds that are the problem. Anyway one can hold ETFs of most funds and it does not have to be any issue at all to manage transaction costs. I hold mostly Vanguard funds but not at Vanguard and have for decades.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Alexa9 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:35 am

FPS_dapdap wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:54 am
What are the few small drawbacks?
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs_mutual_funds

Automated investing and fractional shares are convenient, but it's not that important.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by FPS_dapdap » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:55 am

Alexa9 wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:35 am
FPS_dapdap wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:54 am
What are the few small drawbacks?
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs_mutual_funds

Automated investing and fractional shares are convenient, but it's not that important.
Thanks for the information!

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by Nowizard » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:00 am

In today's world, not to be cynical, all companies are looking for ways to automate or transfer responsibility to the customer. Companies that are known for service are usually smaller. How many large companies do you know that provide all you want? It does not sound like you would be overly inconvenienced to manually accomplish what you want, and just transferring to Schwab or Fidelity could become as aggravating and time consuming as adjusting to change.

Tim

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by jhfenton » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:25 am

Cara wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:44 pm
3) Today, found out that I can't even set up an automatic "sweep" from the money in my MM fund (direct deposited from my paycheck, monthly) into a pre-selected fund. I can't say, on the 3rd of each month, move 100% of the money market fund into Total Stock Index, for example.
You absolutely can do this. It's just not obvious.

Say you have monthly deposits that vary from $800-$1,100 into your MM, and you want to sweep it into Total Stock on the 3rd.

You set up a periodic investment from your MM into Total Stock for $1,100 (or $1,500) into Total Stock. If the full amount is not available, the system will make the periodic investment for the amount that is available.

They tell you that this will happen on the Review and Submit screen when you set up an automatic investment:
If at the time your automatic investment into a Vanguard fund is scheduled to be processed, the amount available to trade in your settlement fund is less than the scheduled investment amount, we'll attempt to run the automatic investment for the lesser amount.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by jeffyscott » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:59 am

dbr wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:15 am
Alexa9 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:48 pm
Fine! But no more admiral shares for you!
That is not entirely true. For example I hold VAIPX at Schwab. The rules are not completely clear, but it may only be Admiral classes of index funds that are the problem. Anyway one can hold ETFs of most funds and it does not have to be any issue at all to manage transaction costs. I hold mostly Vanguard funds but not at Vanguard and have for decades.
Their listing for VAIPX says "Availability - Institutional Customers Only". But why not just use Schwab's TIPS Index Fund (SWRSX), with ER of 0.05%?

I would only move if you can get the funds or a facsimile of them at Schawb or Fidelity. So to me it would depend on what you own and want to own. When I went to meet the Schwab guy, he did tell me he could waive transaction fees for me. But when I mentioned that I'd not be able to get Admiral shares of Wellington he did not state otherwise. That listing is a little different, it says "Available to Existing Shareholders"...but that may be Vanguard is it closed if not buying directly from Vanguard? Maybe I will ask him about VFIDX as that is one I was considering at Vanguard and it also says institutional only at Schwab.

I was going to roll my employer plan to Vanguard, but was not happy with the small test transfer I did. I decided to try Schwab, and they are paying me to try it by matching a TD bonus and simultaneously avoiding the hidden cost of rolling to Vanguard (their slowness...16 days from the time I mailed check to the funds being available to re-invest). With Schwab, I can take the check there as soon as I receive it (The guy at the office even said he'd come and pick it up if I wanted him to). I had reviewed what I could get NTF from Schwab and TD and decided Schwab would be better for me. I may someday decide to transfer some assets to VG, if I want and can not get Admiral shares.
press on, regardless - John C. Bogle

cafmustang
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by cafmustang » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:30 am

all I know is "divorce is expensive"....

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by rothnroll » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:22 am

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:25 am
Cara wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:44 pm
3) Today, found out that I can't even set up an automatic "sweep" from the money in my MM fund (direct deposited from my paycheck, monthly) into a pre-selected fund. I can't say, on the 3rd of each month, move 100% of the money market fund into Total Stock Index, for example.
You absolutely can do this. It's just not obvious.

Say you have monthly deposits that vary from $800-$1,100 into your MM, and you want to sweep it into Total Stock on the 3rd.

You set up a periodic investment from your MM into Total Stock for $1,100 (or $1,500) into Total Stock. If the full amount is not available, the system will make the periodic investment for the amount that is available.

They tell you that this will happen on the Review and Submit screen when you set up an automatic investment:
If at the time your automatic investment into a Vanguard fund is scheduled to be processed, the amount available to trade in your settlement fund is less than the scheduled investment amount, we'll attempt to run the automatic investment for the lesser amount.
Thanks, I didn't notice that. It's basically like the old sweep function.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by nisiprius » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:32 am

I had accounts at both Vanguard and Fidelity for over seven years, not counting the Fidelity-managed 401(k). A while ago, and I haven't been forced onto the Vanguard brokerage platform yet, but.

I feel that

1) if you specifically want Vanguard's mutual funds and ETFs, the best course is to stay at Vanguard, but

2) there is no big or compelling reason to specifically want Vanguard's index funds and ETFs over Fidelity's index funds and their no-fee iShares ETFs.

If I got ticked off enough to leave Vanguard, I'd probably move to Fidelity--and I'd just shrug and use non-Vanguard mutual funds and ETFs.

There have been many discussions of Fidelity's index funds in the forum. I personally have a brand preference and fan loyalty to Vanguard. However, where Fidelity has a no-fee product--Fidelity index fund or iShares ETF--that corresponds to a Vanguard index fund or ETF, I do not think any Vanguard superiority can possibly outweigh the fee issue.

Fidelity has been offering low-cost index funds for so long that I believe they know how to do it, and that it they are being straight about them. They may sort of wish people used other products, I wouldn't know, but in the past they haven't done teasers with them--start with low ER's and later jack them up or anything like that, so I think they are perfectly serious about them.

In the time I used both I didn't notice any particular difference in customer service. Fidelity has a wider range of offerings, like storefronts, and a bunch of things that aren't important to me, like chatty newsletters about spiffy new things I could add to my portfolio. I haven't needed much customer service from either, and it was always OK from either one.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

neveragain
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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by neveragain » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:36 am

I think either Schwab or Fidelity is a good choice.

I use Fidelity and I do have one Vanguard fund in my Fidelity IRA. It is possible to still use Vanguard funds in Fidelity although you'd likely have to pay a small fee to put it in your Fidelity account. Fidelity and Schwab also have offices where you can walk in and talk to someone. When I started investing money I felt more comfortable doing that, than just going online.

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Re: Thinking of a divorce - from Vanguard

Post by coffeehubcap » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:58 am

Cara,

I fully understand your issues because they're the same ones I have. I felt forced to convert to brokerage instead of hanging on to the old platform. It's been nothing but more work on my part. I feel your pain but I will stay with Vanguard.

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