Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:47 pm

Just saw this article today about Bitcoin and thought I'd share it with everyone. Another good reason to stay away from Bitcoin:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/tech ... rtion.html
The rich have always feared robbery and extortion. Now, big holders of Bitcoin and its brethren have become alluring marks for criminals, especially since the prices of virtual currencies entered the stratosphere last year.

Virtual currencies can be easily transferred to an anonymous address set up by a criminal. While banks can stop or reverse large electronic transactions made under duress, there is no Bitcoin bank to halt or take back a transfer, making the chances of a successful armed holdup frighteningly enticing...

“If you are rich and you own real estate, or stocks or a sports team, somebody can’t mug you and take your sports team away,” he said. “Having liquid crypto assets makes you much more attractive for that type of criminal attack.”
other similar article:
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/0 ... life-guns/
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

amythius
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by amythius » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:19 pm

I admit, I did not and likely will not read the article attached. :P

But I can pass some information regarding. My guess is you largely don't understand 'crypto-currencies', so I will work off that assumption.

There is no more physical threat regarding crypto-currencies than any other item of value.
1) A predator must be knowledgeable of the victim (owner of asset / valuable)
2) A predator may 'coerce' the victim using various / any method to forfeit the object of value

If you drive a billion dollar car, people can see it on the roads every day. People may even deduce the identity of said driver / owner.

With crypto-currencies, the vast majority of accounts are based on a psuedo-random address. A string of hexadecimal characters. There is largely no attribution to these accounts outside of the exchanges. Kind of like a bank, that charges nothing to hold an account. Trust a good bank, they will treat you good. Trust a bad bank, and your 'attribution' to an account may be compromised somehow. It is actually seen as a positive feature that blockchain technology has no intervening entity in most scenarios. The trust is placed in a public consensus model, and allows any two or more parties to interact only in ways they choose to do so. In the traditional banking model, there is a third-part (the bank(s)) involved in most steps, procedures and activities.

Someone cannot merely guess a random address and 'steal' value from it. Transfers are initiated from the 'owner' and sent to the recipient 'address'.


TL;DR -- This article and viewpoint appear to be merely FUD - Fear, uncertainty, doubt regarding a new technology..

Sorry, thought I would chime in. Anyone wishing to truly understand crypto-currencies, and more importantly 'blockchain' technology -- I would encourage to do so. Many feared the internet when it was created, but that never stopped it's progression. No one is asking people to invest in 'crypto-currencies', people are doing so merely based on various reasons of their own elect / choice.

financeidiot
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by financeidiot » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:50 pm

Another argument for "stealth wealth." Cryptocurrencies may be anonymous, but not if you let other people know you own them. The less you flaunt your wealth or let people know about any of your assets or your financial situation, the less likely you are to be targeted. It's also a reminder that the tried and true methods of kidnapping, torture, and extortion are universal risks for all asset classes.

I do agree that known owners of large amounts of cryptocurrency would be more alluring targets than say, real estate magnates, due to the easier ability to receive the and hide the digital assets.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Jonathan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:25 pm

amythius wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:19 pm
My guess is you largely don't understand 'crypto-currencies', so I will work off that assumption.
Agreed; I don't think OP is knowledgeable about cryptos. These thefts are no different than the thefts of value that have occurred over thousands of years in human civilization. When thieves, kidnappers, or extortionists demand cash, it never makes the news. If it has anything to do with crypto, it's a big story. The title of this thread and the selective quoting from the article position this discussion as just another anti-bitcoin asset bashing thread. More broadly, this strategy of disproportionately inflating a small number of negative events into a supposed trend is an informal logical fallacy known as Hasty generalization.

Buried somewhere in the article is the correct method for securing cryptocurrency: multisignatures. You can place signatures in safety deposit boxes, in the hands of trustees or family members, in geo-distant locations, etc. If you really want to secure your crypto long-term, look at the glacier protocol: https://glacierprotocol.org .

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Edward Joseph » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:51 pm

I think the point the article and OP is trying to make is the complete anonymity involved with a Bitcoin transfer.

Yes, a thief in a ski mask can hold me at gun point and demand I open my safe and hand over $1m in cash. The problem is is that stolen cash typically needs laundered. You can't deposit anything larger than 10k in a bank without a official CTR report. Large bills are sometimes difficult to move and can possibly be "marked" if taken from a bank.

If forced to wire transfer money at gunpoint, that transfer is sometimes revocable within a certain time frame and there typically is an official bank account on record somewhere that the money is going to.

If a masked thief forces me to move Bitcoin at gun point and he disappears into the darkness, the transfer is completely anonymous and impossible to track. The thief can then access the stolen funds with no record of where they came from.
Last edited by Edward Joseph on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John Doe 123
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by John Doe 123 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:10 pm

There are many reasons to avoid buying crypto currency, but this is not one of them.

Crypto currency transactions are anonymous, so the only way anyone would know you have a large holding of crypto currency is if you announce it.

Holding cash is also anonymous. Telling anyone you have a large position if crypto currency is similar to announcing that you have a large stockpile of cash in your home. You'd be foolish to do so.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by djpeteski » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:12 pm

So listening to the radio last week and one of the mortgage hawkers lauded the ability to get a cash out refi.

One of the things listed that a person could do with the money: "buy the bit coin drop".

All I could think is "Winter is coming".

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Jonathan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:14 pm

Edward Joseph wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:51 pm
I think the point the article and OP is trying to make is the complete anonymity involved with a Bitcoin transfer.

Yes, a thief in a ski mask can hold me at gun point and demand I open my safe and hand over $1m in cash. The problem is is that stolen cash typically needs laundered. You can't deposit anything larger than 10k in a bank without a official CTR report. Large bills are sometimes difficult to move and can possibly be "marked" if taken from a bank.
The same threat of violence can be used to compel someone to send money from their bank account to a crypto exchange, where a thief can just send it to his crypto address.

n-of-m multisig strategies can actually be used to protect against this type of theft. Signatures can be stored with a law firm, a distant family member, a safety deposit box, etc. Thieves would need access to multiple signatures to complete their theft.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by ClevrChico » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:32 pm

I'd agree with OP on this one. This is a real risk. Even something as liquid as cash is serialized and can be tracked which can prevent crime. (DB Cooper never spent any of his randsom money.)

Enthusiasts scorn those that flaunt their crypto wealth, such as luxury cars with BTC license plates, as it's dangerous.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by mayday23 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:14 pm

Edward Joseph wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:51 pm
If a masked thief forces me to move Bitcoin at gun point and he disappears into the darkness, the transfer is completely anonymous and impossible to track. The thief can then access the stolen funds with no record of where they came from.
S/he still needs to move the bitcoin to a local currency. Good luck trying to launder $1M from Coindesk to your Chase account.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by nisiprius » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:26 pm

John Doe 123 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:10 pm
...Crypto currency transactions are anonymous, so the only way anyone would know you have a large holding of crypto currency is if you announce it...
Look, I don't know what to think. A few years ago, the people writing explanations of Bitcoin commonly said Bitcoin was "anonymous."

But then lately, people have seen saying "It's not anonymous, it never was anonymous, and nobody knowledgeable ever said it was anonymous."

For example, bitcoin.org, in Some things you need to know, says:
Image

Technology Review reports:
Web merchants routinely leak data about purchases. And that can make it straightforward to link individuals with their Bitcoin purchases, say cybersecurity researchers....

...thanks to the work of Steven Goldfeder at Princeton University [we know that] the way information leaks during ordinary purchases makes it straightforward to link individuals with the Bitcoin transactions they make, even when purchasers use additional privacy protections, such as CoinJoin....

...even when the exact transaction is kept hidden, it is still possible to make the link when the leak includes the amount and time of the purchase....

...We find that unique linkage is possible in over 60% of cases for realistic values of these parameters....
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Atgard » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:35 pm

amythius wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:19 pm
If you drive a billion dollar car, people can see it on the roads every day. People may even deduce the identity of said driver / owner.
Except this is not remotely the same thing. Someone can steal your car -- you hand him the keys and say "Have a nice day." The car is still registered to you. When the cops find one of only 20 of such billion-dollar cars in the world, they bring it back to you. Meanwhile, you have filed an insurance claim to be reimbursed in full. None of that happens with crypto.

It is also more dangerous than money in a bank (or even arguably cash, but yes holding $1M in cash at home is incredibly dangerous too). If someone breaks into my house and demands all my money, I'll gladly give them the $100 or so in my wallet. They may drive me to an ATM and get me to take out another $500. That's about it. (I don't think they want to be ID'd by making me do a wire transfer to their account that can probably be reversed?)

But if they hold a gun to your head and ask you to transfer all your crypto to them? What can you do? It's gone, irrecoverable, untraceable, all of it.

Of course, you shouldn't advertise having $10M in bitcoin any more than you should advertise having $10M in the bank. But sometimes it is quite obvious that certain people are quite wealthy -- CEOs, people who own a big house or nice car, basketball players, anyone on the Forbes 500 list, etc. Right now, the odds they have any crypto is kinda low, I guess if you have the nerves you could tell the guy with a gun to your head you have none and hope he doesn't search your browser history or find some note anywhere in your house referencing crypto. If it becomes common, he'll just assume you have it and start shooting you or family members if you claim not to.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by greg24 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 pm

mayday23 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:14 pm
S/he still needs to move the bitcoin to a local currency. Good luck trying to launder $1M from Coindesk to your Chase account.
But I've been told we'll all be using BTC and fiat currencies will disappear. They won't need to convert to a local currency.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by greg24 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:41 pm

John Doe 123 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:10 pm
Crypto currency transactions are anonymous, so the only way anyone would know you have a large holding of crypto currency is if you announce it.
Once everyone in the world is using BTC, everyone who has a lot of money has large crypto. So, they'll just troll some better neighborhoods, grab you as you pull into your garage, and force you to transfer your millions to their wallet.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Epsilon Delta » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:34 pm

I don't think a stolen bitcoin is necessarily any different than any other piece of stolen property. The authorities or victim can attempt to trace it, they might be successful, the public ledger and internet logs might help here. If they locate it, or the person who stole it, they can threaten whoever is holding it with extra punishment if they don't give it back, and they can search the thieves PCs and possessions for the keys needed to access the bitcoins and transfer it back.

Maybe the person stealing the bitcoins is clever enough and careful enough that they can't be found. Nothing new here. Clever and careful thieves have always been able to get away with their loot. Bitcoin changes the details, but it does not change the overall picture.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by John Doe 123 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:39 pm

greg24 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:41 pm
John Doe 123 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:10 pm
Crypto currency transactions are anonymous, so the only way anyone would know you have a large holding of crypto currency is if you announce it.
Once everyone in the world is using BTC, everyone who has a lot of money has large crypto. So, they'll just troll some better neighborhoods, grab you as you pull into your garage, and force you to transfer your millions to their wallet.
Not really. If it ever became that abundantly used then it would basically just replace cash. More affluent people would presumably still have most of their assets locked up in bonds/equities/homes/personal businesses/etc as they do today.

Carrying large amounts of bitcoin would be similar to carrying large amounts of cash in such a scenario.

The theory driving bitcoin prices higher is the speculation that bitcoin will some day reach this kind of acceptance/saturation.

For the record, I don't hold any crypto currency nor do I think it is a viable long term currency. But it seems some folks are bashing it for all the wrong reasons.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by John Doe 123 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:41 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:26 pm
John Doe 123 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:10 pm
...Crypto currency transactions are anonymous, so the only way anyone would know you have a large holding of crypto currency is if you announce it...
Look, I don't know what to think. A few years ago, the people writing explanations of Bitcoin commonly said Bitcoin was "anonymous."

But then lately, people have seen saying "It's not anonymous, it never was anonymous, and nobody knowledgeable ever said it was anonymous."

For example, bitcoin.org, in Some things you need to know, says:
Image

Technology Review reports:
Web merchants routinely leak data about purchases. And that can make it straightforward to link individuals with their Bitcoin purchases, say cybersecurity researchers....

...thanks to the work of Steven Goldfeder at Princeton University [we know that] the way information leaks during ordinary purchases makes it straightforward to link individuals with the Bitcoin transactions they make, even when purchasers use additional privacy protections, such as CoinJoin....

...even when the exact transaction is kept hidden, it is still possible to make the link when the leak includes the amount and time of the purchase....

...We find that unique linkage is possible in over 60% of cases for realistic values of these parameters....
Yes, lots of metadata used in aggregate is a powerful thing. I am confident that someone who truly wanted to remain anonymous in a person to person bitcoin transaction could do so. If it is a person to business transaction then there is likely enough metadata for a trained investigator to make a link.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by John Doe 123 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:49 pm

greg24 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 pm
mayday23 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:14 pm
S/he still needs to move the bitcoin to a local currency. Good luck trying to launder $1M from Coindesk to your Chase account.
But I've been told we'll all be using BTC and fiat currencies will disappear. They won't need to convert to a local currency.
Who told you this? Bitcoin is a fiat currency, so your statement is an oxymoron. This should have been the first hint that the individual telling you this did not know what they were talking about.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Epsilon Delta » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:54 pm

John Doe 123 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:49 pm
Who told you this? Bitcoin is a fiat currency, so your statement is an oxymoron.
Which government has declared bitcoin to be legal tender? This is a necessary condition to bitcoin being a fiat currency.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by John Doe 123 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:57 pm

Epsilon Delta wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:54 pm
John Doe 123 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:49 pm
Who told you this? Bitcoin is a fiat currency, so your statement is an oxymoron.
Which government has declared bitcoin to be legal tender? This is a necessary condition to bitcoin being a fiat currency.
Not necessarily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money
Last edited by John Doe 123 on Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by HomerJ » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:59 pm

Exchanges can and have been hacked. There is no recourse for you if your money is stolen, unlike a bank. There is no FDIC for bitcoin.

Therefore, it's better to keep your money in a hardware wallet.

But then you have the exact same problem as keeping cash around. I have zero desire to keep $50,000 in cash in my house, for the exact same reasons I have zero desire to keep $50,000 in bitcoin on a USB stick in my house.


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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by ianferrel » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:11 pm

amythius wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:19 pm
But I can pass some information regarding. My guess is you largely don't understand 'crypto-currencies', so I will work off that assumption.
I understand cryptocurrencies pretty well, and I disagree with your post (apart from the basic description of cryptocurrencies, which is fine and useful). I assume you didn't mean it this way, but starting out like this reads as pretty patronizing.
There is no more physical threat regarding crypto-currencies than any other item of value.
This is definitely not true. In fact, it's kind of hard to understand how such a statement could be true, given that the physical threat is not even uniform across all other items of value.

The physical threat related to an item of value is influenced by the difficulty of stealing it, and the value it has once stolen.

Cars, for example, have a pretty high physical threat. They are hard to hide, easy to steal (they provide the escape method!), and they are pretty valuable once stolen. Houses, on the other hand, have a very low physical threat. They're quite bulky and difficult to fence. You are much more likely to be car-jacked, for example, than house-jacked (note that a home-invasion robbery is superficially similar, but not the same. They don't steal your house).

So, is owning Bitcoin exactly as risky from a physical threat point of view as owning a car? Or as owning a house? It can't be both! Is it more, or less? It's... different.

Just as houses and cars have different threat surfaces, there is a different threat surface for cryptocurrencies, but it's not obvious to me that the threat surface is smaller than most other items of value.

Some of the very features that make cryptocurrencies desirable to hold make them particularly risky from a physical threat point of view. Difficulty of tracing, lack of an ownership system based on the legal system, and extreme portability all combine to make it a particularly appealing theft target.

Yes, the fact that one can keep their cryptocurrency ownership a secret is certainly helpful, but... not as helpful as you'd like in reducing physical risk.

For one, many crypto-millionaires were quite vocal in the early days of BTC. Many of them were early activists, founders, coders, etc. Pretty hard to put that genie back in the bottle. Everyone knows. They are at risk.

There are also steps you can take to reduce the amount lost, like splitting things up into separate accounts, keeping keys in safes, safe deposit boxes, and split up into more complicated structures that require more than one person to have a key to a transfer.

However, while that reduces the risk of theft (it limits your losses), it's hard to reduce the risk of physical violence, because it's hard to signal to potential coercers that you have done so. Imagine that you're in the "high risk" group of well-off known early-bitcoin enthusiasts and some masked men with guns who expect you to give them $billions. I'm terribly sorry, violent men, but I'm afraid I can't do that because <technobabble>. Will they believe you? You certainly can't prove it to them. Be prepared to lose some fingers to convince them of your sincerity.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:30 pm

Jonathan wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:25 pm
amythius wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:19 pm
My guess is you largely don't understand 'crypto-currencies', so I will work off that assumption.
Agreed; I don't think OP is knowledgeable about cryptos. These thefts are no different than the thefts of value that have occurred over thousands of years in human civilization. When thieves, kidnappers, or extortionists demand cash, it never makes the news. If it has anything to do with crypto, it's a big story. The title of this thread and the selective quoting from the article position this discussion as just another anti-bitcoin asset bashing thread. More broadly, this strategy of disproportionately inflating a small number of negative events into a supposed trend is an informal logical fallacy known as Hasty generalization.

Buried somewhere in the article is the correct method for securing cryptocurrency: multisignatures. You can place signatures in safety deposit boxes, in the hands of trustees or family members, in geo-distant locations, etc. If you really want to secure your crypto long-term, look at the glacier protocol: https://glacierprotocol.org .
Well, now since you're throwing stones at those who care to share information and new wrinkles in a technology that's in it's infancy, let's be wary of living in glass houses, shall we? An assumption, of which you admit one but actually made two is a type of illogical fallacy.

The first you made is saying I "largely don't understand 'crypto-currencies". What do you base that on? A limited set of information? This one blog post? Did you happen to read the post I made trying to warn an entire party full of people in my neighborhood who sunk their money into bitconnect? Who turned out to be right? Those who presumed to "know" more about cryptocurrencies only to lose all their money or me, the one who supposedly knows nothing?
If you missed it, read here: viewtopic.php?t=234790

The second assumption you made is that I made a "hasty generalization". I did nothing of the sort. I am not intimating it will happen to everyone or even large groups of people who own bitcoin. I'm merely pointing it out as an additional (new) risk that was not previously reported to my knowledge. I'm sharing that information with others so that if people consider buying (it's not an investment) bitcoin, they are aware of this risk...that ISN'T present with money in a bank (as the article and numerous posters here have pointed out).

It's a risk along with so many others, that yes, I determined it's another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin, et. al. What others you say?
1. exchanges being hacked and millions lost
2. USBs/computers lost and millions lost
3. passwords lost and millions lost
4. governments shutting down exchanges or disallowing use of the currency
5. the value itself plummetting (and millions lost) through normal volatility
6. numerous competing currencies coming out daily taking market share affecting the price of the remaining currencies...

others please feel free to point out other potential pitfalls. I'm at a loss for time, I have a prior engagement.

Thanks for the comments everyone. I appreciated the conversation.
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:52 am

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:30 pm


It's a risk along with so many others, that yes, I determined it's another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin, et. al. What others you say?
1. exchanges being hacked and millions lost
2. USBs/computers lost and millions lost
3. passwords lost and millions lost
4. governments shutting down exchanges or disallowing use of the currency
5. the value itself plummetting (and millions lost) through normal volatility
6. numerous competing currencies coming out daily taking market share affecting the price of the remaining currencies...

others please feel free to point out other potential pitfalls. I'm at a loss for time, I have a prior engagement.

Thanks for the comments everyone. I appreciated the conversation.
We are in the land of the zealots - true believers. As the performance of bitcoin has declined, fewer around. If it picks up again, they will be back, just as sure we are misunderstanding, ignorant, close minded (all of which could be true). Of course, if true, there's their arbitrage opportunity. They should shut up and concentrate on buying the stuff before rubes like you and me get interested. Why waste time here?

The ICO market is being investigated by the SEC-- number like half of the money raised has been stolen or squandered?

The thing was always a bubble. It may yet be an even bigger bubble. It had the perfect characteristics of a bubble- ticked all the boxes. By the nature of price movements (low to high), a relatively small number of people made a killing. A lot more bought in at higher prices and have or will take significant losses.

Over my years on these boards I have realized you cannot save some people from themselves. One tries to inform and warn the merely curious, or those for whom finance is a new area. But, and I have also seen this with residential real estate, 100% equity portfolios etc, there is a type of human that likes to gamble, and is seeking validation for their gambling strategies, here. Not information or criticism.

We can tell people 1000 times why 100% equity portfolios are bad, but until they actually experience a bear market, they won't know (and sometimes not even then). We can tell people 1000 times that the 2008-09 bear market was not typical given that markets rallied so fast, that bear markets are usually longer, slower and more painful than that. But they won't listen. You can tell people that equities won't keep producing 7% real returns p.a. over time, but they won't listen.

So many people have made so much money (on paper) in real estate in Toronto, Vancouver, Sydney, Melbourne, that there's a similar sense that these markets can only go up. That same sense of everyone punch drunk on the money they've made - -even if within your memory prices fell by 40% in some of those places, and stayed down for years. Same feeling I have about equity markets, and particularly the US equity markets, right now.

Whether the underlying technology is interesting I am agnostic: I've read good arguments both ways.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by lolbatross » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:47 am

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:30 pm
It's a risk along with so many others, that yes, I determined it's another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin, et. al. What others you say?
1. exchanges being hacked and millions lost
2. USBs/computers lost and millions lost
3. passwords lost and millions lost
4. governments shutting down exchanges or disallowing use of the currency
5. the value itself plummetting (and millions lost) through normal volatility
6. numerous competing currencies coming out daily taking market share affecting the price of the remaining currencies...
This is a great list. If I can take it another way - for those who choose to pursue bitcoin you need to know, understand and mitigate these risks. Here is some quick thoughts.

1. Store your own btc - take as much off exchange as possible (USD is FDIC insured)
2. Have a backup(s) consisting of pieces multiple parts in multiple locations (no single point of failure)
3. See 2
4. ... Vote? Protest? Riot? (depending on country)
5. If BTC was a part of your AA it should be <10% (like an employer stock)
6. Steer clear of altcoins as they are all scams/businesses (this is more philosophical)

I think the natural problem here is that people prefer convenience over security until they need the later. Things like multisig help mitigate the issue but are another inconvenience.

One risk I would add to your list is more for businesses -insider risk. Whoever holds your keys controls your money. Multisig, proper business processed, etc. would need to be in place especially at Megacorps. When Bob from accounting gets passed over for that promotion he might just ship $100,000,000 worth of BTC to his private wallet and skip town.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by grayfox » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:19 am

There is no reason to hold large amounts of bitcoin in a wallet.

Analogy: Cash. I like to pay for a lot of things with cash: e.g. Lunch $10-$20. So I only carry about $40 in my wallet. If I get mugged, they get $40. When I need more cash I go to the bankomat and withdraw another $100. Then I replace the spent $40 and keep $60 at home. No reason for tons of cash in your wallet or at home. That's what banks are for.

Same with my bitcoin wallet. I have BTC with about $50 in the wallet on my iPhone. I would spend it and then replace it, except that there is no where to spend it.

I see no reason to have more than about $100-$200 in BTC on my wallet. Why would anyone have a need to keep large sums like millions of dollars in bitcoin in their wallet? It's earning no interest. Put that cash in a Vanguard MMMF and earn 1.5% right now.

This is not necessarily a reason to steer clear of bitcoin. Just keep the balance low, only have enough to cover say, one week's spending needs.
Last edited by grayfox on Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:33 am

Stepping back and taking a little bigger view.
DW and I have been binge watching "The Americans", story is set in the 70's. They bring up "Arpanet", predecessor to the Internet. And other early computer technology of that day. The general public is oblivious to it, doesn't trust it, and so forth. Large floppy drives, cryptic green symbols on a screen.
"Bitcoin" is a small piece of things to come. In and of itself has value or not. But what it foreshadows in technology is daunting.
As a senior, it's all sometimes intimidating and tough to keep up with. But then, so was my first "cell phone" that was the size of a shoebox and heavy as a small car battery. :shock:

I've recently tried purchasing bitcoin. Opened an account at Coinbase. Opened a small free checking account at a bank I don't use for anything else, and linked them. Just to see how it's done. Explained it to DW. It felt like when we bought our first digital camera on Ebay and tried to figure it out. Or the "internet" when we first got it.
Technology can be as intimidating as one's lack of understanding.
j :D
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by HomerJ » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:02 pm

grayfox wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:19 am
There is no reason to hold large amounts of bitcoin in a wallet.

Analogy: Cash. I like to pay for a lot of things with cash: e.g. Lunch $10-$20. So I only carry about $40 in my wallet. If I get mugged, they get $40. When I need more cash I go to the bankomat and withdraw another $100. Then I replace the spent $40 and keep $60 at home. No reason for tons of cash in your wallet or at home. That's what banks are for.

Same with my bitcoin wallet. I have BTC with about $50 in the wallet on my iPhone. I would spend it and then replace it, except that there is no where to spend it.

I see no reason to have more than about $100-$200 in BTC on my wallet. Why would anyone have a need to keep large sums like millions of dollars in bitcoin in their wallet? It's earning no interest. Put that cash in a Vanguard MMMF and earn 1.5% right now.

This is not necessarily a reason to steer clear of bitcoin. Just keep the balance low, only have enough to cover say, one week's spending needs.
I'm completely confused by your post. If you cash out bitcoin to put millions of dollars in cash in a Vanguard MMF, you are no longer investing in bitcoin.

The dilemma is for people with a lot of money actually invested in bitcoin.

The choices are hardware wallet or keep it on an exchange, right? Exchanges have been hacked, no recourse, no FDIC, so that's risky. Keeping it in your hardware wallet is ALSO risky. For the exact same reason you only carry about $40 in your wallet, I wouldn't want a ton of bitcoins on a hardware wallet either.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by HomerJ » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:10 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:33 am
Stepping back and taking a little bigger view.
DW and I have been binge watching "The Americans", story is set in the 70's. They bring up "Arpanet", predecessor to the Internet. And other early computer technology of that day. The general public is oblivious to it, doesn't trust it, and so forth. Large floppy drives, cryptic green symbols on a screen.
"Bitcoin" is a small piece of things to come. In and of itself has value or not. But what it foreshadows in technology is daunting.
As a senior, it's all sometimes intimidating and tough to keep up with. But then, so was my first "cell phone" that was the size of a shoebox and heavy as a small car battery. :shock:

I've recently tried purchasing bitcoin. Opened an account at Coinbase. Opened a small free checking account at a bank I don't use for anything else, and linked them. Just to see how it's done. Explained it to DW. It felt like when we bought our first digital camera on Ebay and tried to figure it out. Or the "internet" when we first got it.
Technology can be as intimidating as one's lack of understanding.
j :D
Block-chain will probably be thing someday. Crypto-currency MAY become a thing someday. I don't really understand the value. It offers me nothing that I don't already have with cash and credit-cards.

A digital camera and the Internet offered me things I didn't already have.

By the way, Kodak had the first digital camera. They went bankrupt in 2012. Being first doesn't always equal financial success. Even if Block-chain and crypto-currency are indeed the wave of the future, that doesn't mean Bitcoin is a good investment.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:44 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:10 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:33 am
Stepping back and taking a little bigger view.
DW and I have been binge watching "The Americans", story is set in the 70's. They bring up "Arpanet", predecessor to the Internet. And other early computer technology of that day. The general public is oblivious to it, doesn't trust it, and so forth. Large floppy drives, cryptic green symbols on a screen.
"Bitcoin" is a small piece of things to come. In and of itself has value or not. But what it foreshadows in technology is daunting.
As a senior, it's all sometimes intimidating and tough to keep up with. But then, so was my first "cell phone" that was the size of a shoebox and heavy as a small car battery. :shock:

I've recently tried purchasing bitcoin. Opened an account at Coinbase. Opened a small free checking account at a bank I don't use for anything else, and linked them. Just to see how it's done. Explained it to DW. It felt like when we bought our first digital camera on Ebay and tried to figure it out. Or the "internet" when we first got it.
Technology can be as intimidating as one's lack of understanding.
j :D
Block-chain will probably be thing someday. Crypto-currency MAY become a thing someday. I don't really understand the value. It offers me nothing that I don't already have with cash and credit-cards.

A digital camera and the Internet offered me things I didn't already have.

By the way, Kodak had the first digital camera. They went bankrupt in 2012. Being first doesn't always equal financial success. Even if Block-chain and crypto-currency are indeed the wave of the future, that doesn't mean Bitcoin is a good investment.
So true.
Bitcoin may very well be the Kodak, the Betamax, the 8 track tape, the. . . . hint of things to come.
j
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by grayfox » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:02 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:02 pm
I'm completely confused by your post. If you cash out bitcoin to put millions of dollars in cash in a Vanguard MMF, you are no longer investing in bitcoin.

The dilemma is for people with a lot of money actually invested in bitcoin.

The choices are hardware wallet or keep it on an exchange, right? Exchanges have been hacked, no recourse, no FDIC, so that's risky. Keeping it in your hardware wallet is ALSO risky. For the exact same reason you only carry about $40 in your wallet, I wouldn't want a ton of bitcoins on a hardware wallet either.
Read the original paper: Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System.
Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.
Bitcoin is a payment system. Like VISA, Paypal, your checking account, cash. It's not an investment and was never intended to be an investment. Just like Euro banknotes are not an investment. It's spending money.

Don't keep any more cash than you will need during the next week or so because you can easily replace it at the bank or ATM. Keep one month of spending in your checking account. Maybe you keep a little more if there are minimum amounts to avoid bank fees. The rest of your cash should be earning interest, either in an online savings account or MMMF. This is cash management.

Most people don't need any BTC because there are so few places to spend it. It would be great if the supermarket and hamburger stand accepted BTC. But they don't because bitcoin has failed as a payment system. Why bitcoin failed is another discussion.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by HomerJ » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:01 pm

grayfox wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:02 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:02 pm
I'm completely confused by your post. If you cash out bitcoin to put millions of dollars in cash in a Vanguard MMF, you are no longer investing in bitcoin.

The dilemma is for people with a lot of money actually invested in bitcoin.

The choices are hardware wallet or keep it on an exchange, right? Exchanges have been hacked, no recourse, no FDIC, so that's risky. Keeping it in your hardware wallet is ALSO risky. For the exact same reason you only carry about $40 in your wallet, I wouldn't want a ton of bitcoins on a hardware wallet either.
Read the original paper: Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System.
Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.
Bitcoin is a payment system. Like VISA, Paypal, your checking account, cash. It's not an investment and was never intended to be an investment. Just like Euro banknotes are not an investment. It's spending money.

Don't keep any more cash than you will need during the next week or so because you can easily replace it at the bank or ATM. Keep one month of spending in your checking account. Maybe you keep a little more if there are minimum amounts to avoid bank fees. The rest of your cash should be earning interest, either in an online savings account or MMMF. This is cash management.

Most people don't need any BTC because there are so few places to spend it. It would be great if the supermarket and hamburger stand accepted BTC. But they don't because bitcoin has failed as a payment system. Why bitcoin failed is another discussion.
Okay your post makes more sense in theory I guess. But, in reality, bitcoin is NOT a payment system. People are indeed using it as an investment instead, and that's where the risks are.

You are correct there is no wallet or exchange risk with bitcoin if used as a payment system, and you just convert $100 a week from your checking account into bitcoin.

But maybe we should talk about reality instead. You've made numerous excellent posts on bitcoin. I'm not sure why you went this direction in this thread.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Nearly A Moose » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:13 pm

djpeteski wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:12 pm
So listening to the radio last week and one of the mortgage hawkers lauded the ability to get a cash out refi.

One of the things listed that a person could do with the money: "buy the bit coin drop".

All I could think is "Winter is coming".
I'm amused. :sharebeer I also own an itty bitty teeny tight bit of crypto to ensure that itch stays scratched. And when it goes to a million dollars I'll be rich! :moneybag :moneybag :moneybag
Pardon typos, I'm probably using my fat thumbs on a tiny phone.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by grayfox » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:34 am

HomerJ wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:01 pm

But maybe we should talk about reality instead. You've made numerous excellent posts on bitcoin. I'm not sure why you went this direction in this thread.
Bitcoin is no more an investment than the Euro is an investment. Of course there are people who will see an ad for a course in Trading Forex and they think they can get rich quick. Same thing happened with bitcoin. They saw ads popping up for courses that teach them how to make a fortune in bitcoin. Or read about people becoming millionaires. FOMO.

I think that bitcoin bubble has already popped. If you look at the number of bitcoin transactions, it is way down from Dec-2017, when it was over 400,000 per day. Now it looks like it is back to the 2015 levels. Last 24 hours was 215,000.

Many people lost interest after it crashed. The Mempool is pretty much empty and transaction costs have come down to 30 satoshi per byte. Average 255 byte transaction is 6750 satoshi, about 72 cents.

The bitcoin frenzy of the end of 2017 has passed. Most people have lost interest in bitcoin.

Added: Here is another thing that shows how people have lost interest in bitcoin:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=bitcoin
Last edited by grayfox on Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Nate79 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:44 am

LOL. There are 3 things certain in life. Death, taxes, and if you are negative against Bitcoin you are accused of just "not understanding the technology."

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by Texanbybirth » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:56 am

Nearly A Moose wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:13 pm
djpeteski wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:12 pm
So listening to the radio last week and one of the mortgage hawkers lauded the ability to get a cash out refi.

One of the things listed that a person could do with the money: "buy the bit coin drop".

All I could think is "Winter is coming".
I'm amused. :sharebeer I also own an itty bitty teeny tight bit of crypto to ensure that itch stays scratched. And when it goes to a million dollars I'll be rich! :moneybag :moneybag :moneybag
Same here! I've already lost 50% of my investment, so at this point it'll be a "Comeback Story of the Year" when I'm a millionnaire. :beer
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:03 pm

The latest...

"SEC says crypto exchanges must register with agency"
According to the SEC statement:

"If a platform offers trading of digital assets that are securities and operates as an 'exchange,' as defined by the federal securities laws, then the platform must register with the SEC as a national securities exchange or be exempt from registration."

"The SEC staff has concerns that many online trading platforms appear to investors as SEC-registered and regulated marketplaces when they are not. Many platforms refer to themselves as "exchanges," which can give the misimpression to investors that they are regulated or meet the regulatory standards of a national securities exchange." source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/07/bitcoin ... gency.html
yeah, but i don't really know anything about bitcoin...that is, I know just enough to have steered clear of anything that is sold on unregulated "exchanges". Like buying stocks off the pink sheets.
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by amythius » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:27 am

grayfox wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:34 am

Bitcoin is no more an investment than the Euro is an investment. Of course there are people who will see an ad for a course in Trading Forex and they think they can get rich quick. Same thing happened with bitcoin. They saw ads popping up for courses that teach them how to make a fortune in bitcoin. Or read about people becoming millionaires. FOMO.

I think that bitcoin bubble has already popped. If you look at the number of bitcoin transactions, it is way down from Dec-2017, when it was over 400,000 per day. Now it looks like it is back to the 2015 levels. Last 24 hours was 215,000.

Many people lost interest after it crashed. The Mempool is pretty much empty and transaction costs have come down to 30 satoshi per byte. Average 255 byte transaction is 6750 satoshi, about 72 cents.

The bitcoin frenzy of the end of 2017 has passed. Most people have lost interest in bitcoin.

Added: Here is another thing that shows how people have lost interest in bitcoin:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=bitcoin
I do agree, that particular interest and use of BTC is down right now. This is nothing short of normal. Most things exhibit periods or cycles. The true question is where and what will be the cost and Tx count of BTC in Q3/Q4 of 2018? No one can know... a lot can change between now and then.

I feel that much like AOL in the early internet days -- Bitcoin is dwindling in use cases. It is largely a 'value' coin in which it must be used to invest and transfer for other alternate alt-coins.

Until there is a larger, cheaper fair exchange of coins (many are anticipated, decentralized or not) -- BTC will stay somewhat up. There are, imo, many more useful and advanced coins. Not worth discussing here, just pointing out. BTC is coin #1 by creation date, not nearly by technical properties.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by F150HD » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:07 pm

Image
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by carguyny » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:19 pm

I'm a believer and early adopter, I put a tiny amount of money in and now have a much larger amount of money in cryptos. If it goes to zero, I'm still fine with that but I've got it in my VC style allocation.

I have used them for various things, sure I could use a wire transfer. My last international transfer done in Etherum for about $2,000 cost me 7 cents and showed up in their wallet in about 10 to 15 minutes. Much less hassle than dealing with a bank and paying much higher fees and rate commissions.

I don't plan on selling them, just using them from time to time and have already recovered more than my cost basis.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by carguyny » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:25 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:10 pm

Block-chain will probably be thing someday. Crypto-currency MAY become a thing someday. I don't really understand the value. It offers me nothing that I don't already have with cash and credit-cards.

A digital camera and the Internet offered me things I didn't already have.

By the way, Kodak had the first digital camera. They went bankrupt in 2012. Being first doesn't always equal financial success. Even if Block-chain and crypto-currency are indeed the wave of the future, that doesn't mean Bitcoin is a good investment.
Block-chain already is something, you're probably using it in more places than you realize. Here is how Vanguard is using it starting early 2018.

https://pressroom.vanguard.com/news/Pre ... 21217.html

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by investorpeter » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:39 pm

I think OP is right. Lack of a robust security infrastructure to prevent theft and fraud is probably the biggest drawback of owning bitcoin. Yea, there are security safeguards in place, but who are you going to ask to investigate if your bitcoin is stolen? Law enforcement would not know where to begin. Will you be made whole by the bitcoin bank? I doubt it. You don’t have to understand the details of blockchain to know that the biggest thefts in history have been in bitcoin (Mt.Gox $430 million and Coincheck $530 million).

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by StormShadow » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:22 pm

amythius wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:19 pm
Sorry, thought I would chime in. Anyone wishing to truly understand crypto-currencies, and more importantly 'blockchain' technology -- I would encourage to do so. Many feared the internet when it was created, but that never stopped it's progression. No one is asking people to invest in 'crypto-currencies', people are doing so merely based on various reasons of their own elect / choice.
Been reading about blockchain. Fascinating stuff with a lot of potential. And knowing what I know, at this time I wouldn't touch bitcoin with a 10 foot pole.

Its a bubble. Bitcoin is only worth anything because some people seem to think its worth something. Nobody knows how long it'll hang around. There are hundreds (thousands?) of other cryptocurrencies out there.

Your analogy to the internet is an interesting one. I don't recall anyone fearing the internet. (Well, unless you are referring to films like Terminator or Wargames.) Quite the opposite. As I recall, unbridled obsession with the internet was a root cause of dot-com bubble.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by investorpeter » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:09 am

John Doe 123 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:10 pm
There are many reasons to avoid buying crypto currency, but this is not one of them.

Crypto currency transactions are anonymous, so the only way anyone would know you have a large holding of crypto currency is if you announce it.

Holding cash is also anonymous. Telling anyone you have a large position if crypto currency is similar to announcing that you have a large stockpile of cash in your home. You'd be foolish to do so.
But that is exactly why most people don’t hold large stockpiles of cash in their homes. It is a security risk. So fear of theft is a legitimate reason not to hold cryptocurrency.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by HomerJ » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:23 pm

grayfox wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:34 am
HomerJ wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:01 pm

But maybe we should talk about reality instead. You've made numerous excellent posts on bitcoin. I'm not sure why you went this direction in this thread.
Bitcoin is no more an investment than the Euro is an investment. Of course there are people who will see an ad for a course in Trading Forex and they think they can get rich quick. Same thing happened with bitcoin.
I submit the percentage of people trading Euros to make money compared to the number of people using Euros to buy coffee or other items is small.

At least 100x (maybe 1,000x or even 10,000x) smaller than the percentage of people trading Bitcoin to make money compared to the number of people using bitcoin to buy coffee.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by ensign_lee » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:47 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:47 pm
Just saw this article today about Bitcoin and thought I'd share it with everyone. Another good reason to stay away from Bitcoin:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/tech ... rtion.html
The rich have always feared robbery and extortion. Now, big holders of Bitcoin and its brethren have become alluring marks for criminals, especially since the prices of virtual currencies entered the stratosphere last year.

Virtual currencies can be easily transferred to an anonymous address set up by a criminal. While banks can stop or reverse large electronic transactions made under duress, there is no Bitcoin bank to halt or take back a transfer, making the chances of a successful armed holdup frighteningly enticing...

“If you are rich and you own real estate, or stocks or a sports team, somebody can’t mug you and take your sports team away,” he said. “Having liquid crypto assets makes you much more attractive for that type of criminal attack.”
other similar article:
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/0 ... life-guns/
I mean, bitcoin is supposed to be digital CASH. If someone took your cash, you'd have no recourse either, so I don't understand why this is a surprise.

If you have that much lying around, make sure it takes more than one step for you to move it.

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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by nisiprius » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:57 pm

ensign_lee wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:47 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:47 pm
Just saw this article today about Bitcoin and thought I'd share it with everyone. Another good reason to stay away from Bitcoin:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/tech ... rtion.html
The rich have always feared robbery and extortion. Now, big holders of Bitcoin and its brethren have become alluring marks for criminals, especially since the prices of virtual currencies entered the stratosphere last year.

Virtual currencies can be easily transferred to an anonymous address set up by a criminal. While banks can stop or reverse large electronic transactions made under duress, there is no Bitcoin bank to halt or take back a transfer, making the chances of a successful armed holdup frighteningly enticing...

“If you are rich and you own real estate, or stocks or a sports team, somebody can’t mug you and take your sports team away,” he said. “Having liquid crypto assets makes you much more attractive for that type of criminal attack.”
other similar article:
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/0 ... life-guns/
I mean, bitcoin is supposed to be digital CASH. If someone took your cash, you'd have no recourse either, so I don't understand why this is a surprise.

If you have that much lying around, make sure it takes more than one step for you to move it.
Doesn't he passage you quoted show--in red--that under some situations, if someone takes your cash you do have recourse?
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Re: Another reason to steer clear of Bitcoin. As if we need another reason...

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:57 pm

I split GCD's and later posts into a new thread. See: Crypto Exchange goes bankrupt after owner dies with only password

For this discussion, please stay focused on the investing aspects.
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