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Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:52 am
by snowman
snowman wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:31 pm
bondsr4me wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:19 pm
snowman wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:16 pm
I logged in multiple times throughout the day into Fidelity and TDA. No issues whatsoever. After seeing this thread, I tried to log in to Vanguard just to see if true - yep, no access.

No need to trade for me, but I though other BHs might find this info useful.
I logged in successfully just a few minutes ago...no problem at all.
I used my iPad to login to VG website.

Don
I was talking about the time this thread just started. I did not post right away. Maybe that should have been clarified.

I just wanted to offer my personal experience since someone suggested other firms had issues too. At that specific time before market closing, I tried to login to all 3. No issues with Fidelity and TDA, no access with Vanguard.
So this morning (Tuesday), I tried an experiment (I don't need to trade, it was just for my own amusement).

I tried to login to all 3 accounts - TDA, Fidelity, and Vanguard - at the same time 30 minutes before opening bell. No issues with any of them. I logged out.

I tried again 2 minutes after markets opened. It took 3 minutes to get into Fidelity, 4 minutes at TDA. I was surprised I wasn't timed out. Vanguard login was instant as usual, unlike yesterday.

15 minutes later, Fidelity is still extremely slow, and still unable to display Summary page due to high volume. TDA is slow but faster than Fidelity. Vanguard without a hiccup. Kind of interesting to me, and wondering if they made some sort of adjustments last night (if that's possible, I am not an IT guy).

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:54 am
by Keepcalm
Fidelity is now down.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:56 am
by docmart
Keepcalm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:54 am
Fidelity is now down.
It is up, just getting hammered

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:02 am
by AZAttorney11
Keepcalm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:54 am
Fidelity is now down.
Completely unacceptable. Let’s see how long until they remedy their issues.

For the record, I can get into my Fidelity account no problem as of 8:03 a.m. MST.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:04 am
by in_reality
Order went just through at Schwab now. Site seemed fine.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:04 am
by pokebowl
Keepcalm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:54 am
Fidelity is now down.
TDA as well. There is a massive push to get orders in. Some other online communities I frequent, daily discussion posts which usually only generate 20-30 replies are in the several hundreds or more within the last hour. Between option trades and other retail investors trying to get in on the action, those brokerage sites are getting hit hard.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:05 am
by oldcomputerguy
For what it's worth, this morning (10:03 AM Tuesday) Vanguard's site worked for me, but Fidelity's was crashed.
:?

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:08 am
by livesoft
TDA worked fine for me.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:19 pm
by nisiprius
For the record, the press is reporting that other brokerages experienced outages, too. In other words... a lot of them suck, including Vanguard. If this happens on a 8% drop I can only imagine what will happen if we have an actual correction.

Image

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:31 pm
by retiringwhen
nisiprius wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:19 pm
For the record, the press is reporting that other brokerages experienced outages, too. In other words... a lot of them suck, including Vanguard. If this happens on a 8% drop I can only imagine what will happen if we have an actual correction.

Image
My guess is that a lot of these issues attributed to the brokerage sites was really related to Internet issues. About the same time I was hearing about Fidelity problems, I had trouble getting to the Cuisinart website to look up instructions on how to clean my new coffee pot. I don’t think they were being inundated with Wall Street related traffic... In other words, the panic of people getting to the brokerage was exacerbated by normal Internet blips that just raised blood pressure and fear.

I have seen online issues all day today at my corner of the woods, but ironically, Vanguard worked perfectly in the witching hour yesterday for me.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:46 pm
by buccimane
White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:12 pm
Don't buy anything you're not comfortable holding if the market closed for ten years or if you can't access Vanguard.com for a week.
What kind of advice is this? I don't remember reading the weekly blackout clause in the Terms of Agreement- and I would not feel comfortable with these terms, obviously.

Removed

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:55 pm
by acanthurus
Removed

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:05 pm
by saltycaper
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:46 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:12 pm
Don't buy anything you're not comfortable holding if the market closed for ten years or if you can't access Vanguard.com for a week.
What kind of advice is this? I don't remember reading the weekly blackout clause in the Terms of Agreement- and I would not feel comfortable with these terms, obviously.
The NYSE closed for about 4 months in 1914 due to the beginning of WWI. There have been brief closures or trading halts on many occasions since due to national security or technical issues. Not being able to access funds or place any trades for a week or more is something everyone should be prepared for IMO. (The 10 years quote was signaling the importance of being a long-term investor, I think.)

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:30 pm
by KATNYC
I heard a commentator mention today that the market would be busy between 3 pm - 4pm due to computer generated trades. I caught the end of it so I'm not sure if she meant this is a daily issue. I know some robo advisors trade at a specific time of day.

I thought about selling VFSVX yesterday to buy VSS but decided to wait. I had no trouble getting into the Vanguard site yesterday.
It was around 1:10 pm - 1:20 pm yesterday.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:30 pm
by buccimane
saltycaper wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:05 pm
The NYSE closed for about 4 months in 1914 due to the beginning of WWI. There have been brief closures or trading halts on many occasions since due to national security or technical issues.
NYSE closure in 1914 is 100 years past relevancy. In this day and age, I have the expectation that a website holding most of my personal information on it should be able to handle traffic fluctuations without crashing completely. To add context, in my particular situation yesterday, Vanguard.com requested the answer to a security question that I had not even set as one of my questions.

If heavy traffic is able to shut down a website, it is my uneducated technical opinion that that website is not very secure. This is something I'd expect from StubHub the day of a tour announcement- not a website that I entrust a large portion of my net worth. None of this is to say I will not continue using them- but I would if weekly blackouts were a common occurrence.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:33 pm
by willthrill81
I logged into Vanguard to make an IRA contribution today and experienced no problems at all.

It appears that virtually all of the investment platforms out there have only been designed to handle relatively normal amounts of traffic. They apparently aren't able to handle hundreds of thousands or millions of users simultaneously. I doubt that there is an easy/cheap solution to this.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:41 pm
by saltycaper
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:30 pm
saltycaper wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:05 pm
The NYSE closed for about 4 months in 1914 due to the beginning of WWI. There have been brief closures or trading halts on many occasions since due to national security or technical issues.
NYSE closure in 1914 is 100 years past relevancy. In this day and age, I have the expectation that a website holding most of my personal information on it should be able to handle traffic fluctuations without crashing completely. To add context, in my particular situation yesterday, Vanguard.com requested the answer to a security question that I had not even set as one of my questions.

If heavy traffic is able to shut down a website, it is my uneducated technical opinion that that website is not very secure. This is something I'd expect from StubHub the day of a tour announcement- not a website that I entrust a large portion of my net worth. None of this is to say I will not continue using them- but I would if weekly blackouts were a common occurrence.
I agree Vanguard's downtime is unacceptable, along with the downtime of other brokers. That is not what the WWI reference was speaking to. I could have referenced the more recent 9/11 closure. Nobody knows what will cause a major exchange to close next time, but it is going to happen again eventually. The point is you should be prepared to not be able to place any trades or access your money for some time. I think that's what WCI was trying to say.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:11 pm
by retiringwhen
There is a lot of Vanguard bashing, but anyone who steps back will realize that the access issues were much more prevasive than one platform. THere appears to have been issues at multiple points. Those could have actually been influenced by common back end issues in the Internet that are largely beyond the control of the brokerages. It is common knowledge among many networking types that the Cable Internet systems have congestion at the local level as well as on the back bone. When kids get home from school, they hit the games or YouTube around 3-4pm and there is often issues. Add the Super Bowl stuff people watching Monday as well as Stock Market event and I am going to suggest that relying on a best effort technology like a consumer internet connection could be a contributor to the problem.

I am interested to see if any After Action reports are shared by the brokerages on why they had trouble. Was it bandwidth, server capacity, internal systems loads, etc. Also just how high did traffic go to cause these issues. 2X, 3X, 10X vs. normal daily traffic? My guess is the 90% of the traffic was “what is my share price?” Without even trying to make trades. That actually points to a potential discriminator for brokerages who can sell “priority” access to purely trading platforms. Vanguard is not likely to be one of them, but if you want it you could pay for it. As I say this, I realize some of this already exists for the day trader type, my point is Fidelity or whomever could offer that as an add on to their normal consumer offerings.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:12 pm
by KyleAAA
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:30 pm
saltycaper wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:05 pm
The NYSE closed for about 4 months in 1914 due to the beginning of WWI. There have been brief closures or trading halts on many occasions since due to national security or technical issues.
NYSE closure in 1914 is 100 years past relevancy. In this day and age, I have the expectation that a website holding most of my personal information on it should be able to handle traffic fluctuations without crashing completely. To add context, in my particular situation yesterday, Vanguard.com requested the answer to a security question that I had not even set as one of my questions.

If heavy traffic is able to shut down a website, it is my uneducated technical opinion that that website is not very secure. This is something I'd expect from StubHub the day of a tour announcement- not a website that I entrust a large portion of my net worth. None of this is to say I will not continue using them- but I would if weekly blackouts were a common occurrence.
I would say this is an extremely unrealistic expectation to hold any website to. Engineers build to handle the 99.5th percentile, not the 100th. That would be prohibitively expensive.. And I'm not sure what you think the ability to handle traffic spikes has to do with security, exactly.
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:30 pm
This is something I'd expect from StubHub the day of a tour announcement- not a website that I entrust a large portion of my net worth.
You haven't entrusted any portion of your net worth to a website, you've entrusted it to Vanguard. The website being temporarily overwhelmed has nothing to do with your money. ALL websites, yes ALL, go down occasionally. Perfection isn't something people have perfected yet.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:22 pm
by buccimane
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:12 pm
And I'm not sure what you think the ability to handle traffic spikes has to do with security, exactly.
As stated, from a non-technical background, if a website is unable to remain operational it would not be a giant stretch for me to ponder the security of it. Also, having only been with Vanguard for < 6 months, it is concerning that I am being asked security questions that I did not select nor can I answer.
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:12 pm
You haven't entrusted any portion of your net worth to a website, you've entrusted it to Vanguard. The website being temporarily overwhelmed has nothing to do with your money.
I have never met a Vanguard representative, so yes, in a sense I am entrusting a website.

Before you respond again, it is worth repeating that I responded to a post in this thread stating I would not be comfortable with a week-long website blackout. So no, I do not think that that is an unrealistic expectation to hold Vanguard to.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:33 pm
by KyleAAA
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:22 pm
As stated, from a non-technical background, if a website is unable to remain operational it would not be a giant stretch for me to ponder the security of it. Also, having only been with Vanguard for < 6 months, it is concerning that I am being asked security questions that I did not select nor can I answer.
I cannot stress enough how incorrect this logic is. Please let me ease your worried mind: they have literally absolutely nothing to do with each other.
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:12 pm
Before you respond again, it is worth repeating that I responded to a post in this thread stating I would not be comfortable with a week-long website blackout. So no, I do not think that that is an unrealistic expectation to hold Vanguard to.
When has Vanguard or any other brokerage ever had a week-long outage?

This is specifically what I was referring to as an unrealistic expectation:
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:22 pm
I have the expectation that a website holding most of my personal information on it should be able to handle traffic fluctuations without crashing completely.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:44 pm
by retiringwhen
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:33 pm
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:22 pm
As stated, from a non-technical background, if a website is unable to remain operational it would not be a giant stretch for me to ponder the security of it. Also, having only been with Vanguard for < 6 months, it is concerning that I am being asked security questions that I did not select nor can I answer.
I cannot stress enough how incorrect this logic is. Please let me ease your worried mind: they have literally absolutely nothing to do with each other.
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:12 pm
Before you respond again, it is worth repeating that I responded to a post in this thread stating I would not be comfortable with a week-long website blackout. So no, I do not think that that is an unrealistic expectation to hold Vanguard to.
When has Vanguard or any other brokerage ever had a week-long outage?

This is specifically what I was referring to as an unrealistic expectation:
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:22 pm
I have the expectation that a website holding most of my personal information on it should be able to handle traffic fluctuations without crashing completely.
Heck, the cellphone network is not even close to being that reliable and folks sell their entire businesses on availability. The old Bell system was designed for 5 ‘9s’ of reliability 99.999%, today’s cellphone networks are happy closer to 2 9’s 99%. I would guess that Vanguard and Fidelity are probably a lot closer to the 2 9’s.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:48 pm
by DrGoogle2017
I got in today from Bora Bora even. The internet here is by satellite but because of the rain, it was so slow. But I made my purchase after the super low, but not as low as the price I set for my limit order. That’s the reason I had to log in.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:04 pm
by JC565
I didnt trade on it, but my mb trading platform didnt miss a beat yesterday afternoon. (I use desktop pro) i think handling thier forex volume gives them a leg up in the arena of massive customer traffic. That said...vanguard should immediately invest in upgrades. This issue is not trivial. I to noticed my vanguard acct was not working but i also knew it was because people were freaking out about a 3% drop. I just wanted to buy.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:35 pm
by WanderingDoc
pokebowl wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:04 am
Keepcalm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:54 am
Fidelity is now down.
TDA as well. There is a massive push to get orders in. Some other online communities I frequent, daily discussion posts which usually only generate 20-30 replies are in the several hundreds or more within the last hour. Between option trades and other retail investors trying to get in on the action, those brokerage sites are getting hit hard.
Curious. What is this massive push to get orders in?

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:09 pm
by LadyGeek
All I can think of is that the market is a zero-sum game.

Half of the logins want buy at bargain-basement prices. Half of the logins want sell and limit their losses. Buyer meets seller. Everyone is happy and the transactions execute.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:17 pm
by itstoomuch
^ wandering doc,
You, me, and a few others have multiple streams of Investment-income. Some BH have only their S/B portfolio to carry them into and thru retirement. In 2008, we only had a S/B retirement portfolio, I vowed to never let just one income stream jeapardize of retirement.
Ymmv

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:21 pm
by topper1296
I had no issues logging into Schwab today. Good example of why you should not have everything invested with one firm.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:02 am
by buccimane
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:33 pm
This is specifically what I was referring to as an unrealistic expectation:
buccimane wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:22 pm
I have the expectation that a website holding most of my personal information on it should be able to handle traffic fluctuations without crashing completely.
Yes, if you take things out of context, you are usually able to prove a point :sharebeer . If you take the time to look at the post I quoted when I contributed to this thread, you will see that it was ONLY in reference to a week long black out. Since you are clearly fine with a week long blackout of websites holding your personal information, and I am not, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:01 am
by KyleAAA
buccimane wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:02 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:33 pm
This is specifically what I was referring to as an unrealistic expectation:
buccimane wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:22 pm
I have the expectation that a website holding most of my personal information on it should be able to handle traffic fluctuations without crashing completely.
Yes, if you take things out of context, you are usually able to prove a point :sharebeer . If you take the time to look at the post I quoted when I contributed to this thread, you will see that it was ONLY in reference to a week long black out. Since you are clearly fine with a week long blackout of websites holding your personal information, and I am not, we will just have to agree to disagree.
I did not take anything out of context. I quoted the entire context. Traffic fluctuations have nothing to do with weeklong blackouts and vice versa. It was very clear from the context you were speaking of this specific instance of the site being down due to a traffic spike and not any theoretical week-long blackout (which has never happened).

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:12 am
by White Coat Investor
saltycaper wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:41 pm
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:30 pm
saltycaper wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:05 pm
The NYSE closed for about 4 months in 1914 due to the beginning of WWI. There have been brief closures or trading halts on many occasions since due to national security or technical issues.
NYSE closure in 1914 is 100 years past relevancy. In this day and age, I have the expectation that a website holding most of my personal information on it should be able to handle traffic fluctuations without crashing completely. To add context, in my particular situation yesterday, Vanguard.com requested the answer to a security question that I had not even set as one of my questions.

If heavy traffic is able to shut down a website, it is my uneducated technical opinion that that website is not very secure. This is something I'd expect from StubHub the day of a tour announcement- not a website that I entrust a large portion of my net worth. None of this is to say I will not continue using them- but I would if weekly blackouts were a common occurrence.
I agree Vanguard's downtime is unacceptable, along with the downtime of other brokers. That is not what the WWI reference was speaking to. I could have referenced the more recent 9/11 closure. Nobody knows what will cause a major exchange to close next time, but it is going to happen again eventually. The point is you should be prepared to not be able to place any trades or access your money for some time. I think that's what WCI was trying to say.
Exactly. If the website were down one day, I simply wouldn't trade that day. It really doesn't matter when considered over my six decade investing career.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:15 am
by House Blend
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:33 pm
buccimane wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:22 pm
Before you respond again, it is worth repeating that I responded to a post in this thread stating I would not be comfortable with a week-long website blackout. So no, I do not think that that is an unrealistic expectation to hold Vanguard to.
When has Vanguard or any other brokerage ever had a week-long outage?
All brokerages had a one week outage starting on 9/11/2001.

(Granted this was not due to IT incompetence; that's how long the financial markets were closed.)

Also, a lot of brokerages I believe had offices in the WTC (and needless to say lives were lost). Some of those brokerages may have taken a lot more than a week to reopen, although I don't recall examples. I do believe that this prompted many financial firms to add geographically dispersed data centers.

I did have a taxable account in those days (also retirement accounts), but didn't have any reason to login. (Hadn't heard about TLH yet.) So I don't know how hard it was to login at <insert favorite brokerage here> on 9/17/2001. Probably wasn't easy. The market dropped 7% on the first day.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:14 pm
by blackcat allie
Site not down, however small question - I tried to buy a very small amount of Total Stock about around 3:50pm, and site wouldn't let me.
It gave a message in red about frequent trading w fund.
Does this apply to buying in small amounts ? (there was no recent sale out of account)
I'm wondering if this is website weirdness, or policy I'm not aware of. Thanks in advance

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:24 pm
by Grt2bOutdoors
kotsp wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:48 pm
People plan on buying in this dip, please read this https://www.marketwatch.com/story/morga ... yptr=yahoo
Yes, take advice from the snake oil salesman. He'll let you know when to get back in, right after they've bought the entire market lock, stock and barrel. :oops:

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:25 pm
by Grt2bOutdoors
Black Cat wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:14 pm
Site not down, however small question - I tried to buy a very small amount of Total Stock about around 3:50pm, and site wouldn't let me.
It gave a message in red about frequent trading w fund.
Does this apply to buying in small amounts ? (there was no recent sale out of account)
I'm wondering if this is website weirdness, or policy I'm not aware of. Thanks in advance
Had no such problem, and yes, I also placed an order to purchase a small amount went through close to the bell ringing.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:42 pm
by rkhusky
Black Cat wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:14 pm
Site not down, however small question - I tried to buy a very small amount of Total Stock about around 3:50pm, and site wouldn't let me.
It gave a message in red about frequent trading w fund.
Does this apply to buying in small amounts ? (there was no recent sale out of account)
I'm wondering if this is website weirdness, or policy I'm not aware of. Thanks in advance
After you sell a fund in a specific account, you are not allowed to buy that same fund in that account for 30 days. If this doesn't apply to your situation, it sounds like a web site issue. Except for the initial purchase, the minimum purchase appears to be $1.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:59 am
by MrPotatoHead
Vanguard consolidated LDAP servers in order to save money, with the expected result. So they literally architected a system that had a known single point of technical implementation failure.

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:33 am
by retiringwhen
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:59 am
Vanguard consolidated LDAP servers in order to save money, with the expected result. So they literally architected a system that had a known single point of technical implementation failure.
I believe you, but where do you get information on their system architecture?

Re: Vanguard site is crashed now?

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:37 am
by motorcyclesarecool
Yesterday I successfully bought the following total stock market index ETFs: SPTM on TD Ameritrade, and ITOT on Fidelity. Both were done during the final 10 minutes of the trading day. Both executed perfectly. This morning the Vanguard app wouldn’t log me on to look for TLH opportunities.