Is this a form of Market Timing?

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youngmc
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Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by youngmc » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:37 am

Assume one has a deductible IRA balance that he wants converted to a Roth. Would it be considered trying to "time the market" to wait for a market downturn to decrease the balance and pay lower taxes?

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:40 am

what happens if the market is never lower than today?

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by livesoft » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 am

Why do you ask?

Maybe a better question to ask is "Is this a behavioral finance error?"
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:08 am

youngmc wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:37 am
Assume one has a deductible IRA balance that he wants converted to a Roth. Would it be considered trying to "time the market" to wait for a market downturn to decrease the balance and pay lower taxes?
Whether you pay higher taxes or not is not always important, what you are left with is...you might be saving in taxes, but you will be left with the same spending money either way. At least I'm 99% certain of it, wait for others to confirm. I didn't run the numbers but remember thinking about it in the past - I can't trust my memory 100% of the time :D

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by retiredjg » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:24 am

youngmc wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:37 am
Assume one has a deductible IRA balance that he wants converted to a Roth. Would it be considered trying to "time the market" to wait for a market downturn to decrease the balance and pay lower taxes?
It's a good question.🙂

I think it is market timing, but I also do not believe that all market timing is bad. This one is kind of harmless and could be slightly beneficial.

If you definitely intend to convert the money, it does not hurt to see if you can convert it at a lower price. It will hurt if you let the market ride up so I would not dally long. Your plan could backfire.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by retiredjg » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:25 am

livesoft wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 am
Maybe a better question to ask is "Is this a behavioral finance error?"
I'll bite. Is it?

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by livesoft » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:31 am

I don't know. Certainly, it was only last year that folks could do a conversion "horse race" and recharacterize a Roth that lost money. That was considered astute.

Bond funds are already down more than 1.7%, so if one does a conversion of an IRA of bond funds next week, it would certainly be better than doing a conversion in the first week of this past January. :)
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by retiredjg » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:39 am

livesoft wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:31 am
I don't know. Certainly, it was only last year that folks could do a conversion "horse race" and recharacterize a Roth that lost money. That was considered astute.
By some maybe....It always seemed like much ado about very little to me. :happy

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:42 am

Say you have $100 in tIRA you want to convert to Roth. Tax 20%.

Day 1 you have $100 convert to Roth, pay $20 taxes and $80 converted into Roth.
Day 2 market drops 50% you are down to $40
Day 4 market gains 100% you are back to $80.

You wish to convert after the initial market drop on day 3.

Day 3: You have $50 in tIRA, convert to Roth. You pay $10 in taxes, and get $40 into Roth
Day4: market gains %100 and you are at $80.

Same ending point on Day4 of $80 either way. Taxes paid didn't matter.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by digarei » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:43 am

livesoft wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:31 am
I don't know. Certainly, it was only last year that folks could do a conversion "horse race" and recharacterize a Roth that lost money. That was considered astute.

Bond funds are already down more than 1%, so if one does a conversion of an IRA of bond funds next week, it would certainly be better than doing a conversion in the first week of this past January. :)
I believe they still can... or am I missing something? Recharacterizing later in the year in the face of a significant market decline would seem to be one of the better ‘features’ of Roth conversions. It’s an available hedge and is less about timing the market than saving on taxes.

It may be considered a form of market timing but it seems far more innocuous to me than implementing proportionally large buys/sells based on technical analysis, moving averages or tea leaves.
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by livesoft » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:48 am

digarei wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:43 am
I believe they still can... or am I missing something? Recharacterizing later in the year ....
That's now outlawed by the new tax law.
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by retiredjg » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:49 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:42 am
Say you have $100 in tIRA you want to convert to Roth. Tax 20%.

Day 1 you have $100 convert to Roth, pay $20 taxes and $80 converted into Roth.
Day 2 market drops 50% you are down to $40
Day 4 market gains 100% you are back to $80.

You wish to convert after the initial market drop on day 3.

Day 3: You have $50 in tIRA, convert to Roth. You pay $10 in taxes, and get $40 into Roth
Day4: market gains %100 and you are at $80.

Same ending point on Day4 of $80 either way. Taxes paid didn't matter.
Your example only works for people who are over 59.5 (unless an exception applies). People under 59.5 cannot pay the taxes out of the conversion without paying both tax and a 10% penalty on what is used to pay taxes.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by digarei » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:52 am

livesoft wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:48 am
digarei wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:43 am
I believe they still can... or am I missing something? Recharacterizing later in the year ....
That's now outlawed by the new tax law.
I guess I have to read up on this... thanks!
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 am

retiredjg wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:49 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:42 am
Say you have $100 in tIRA you want to convert to Roth. Tax 20%.

Day 1 you have $100 convert to Roth, pay $20 taxes and $80 converted into Roth.
Day 2 market drops 50% you are down to $40
Day 4 market gains 100% you are back to $80.

You wish to convert after the initial market drop on day 3.

Day 3: You have $50 in tIRA, convert to Roth. You pay $10 in taxes, and get $40 into Roth
Day4: market gains %100 and you are at $80.

Same ending point on Day4 of $80 either way. Taxes paid didn't matter.
Your example only works for people who are over 59.5 (unless an exception applies). People under 59.5 cannot pay the taxes out of the conversion without paying both tax and a 10% penalty on what is used to pay taxes.
Good point, thanks!

But still, if we are keeping the AA same wouldn't it still be the same?

Taxes are paid from funds which also drops 50% and gains 100%
So, Day1 $100 converted to Roth, taxable went from $50 to $30 after paying $20 in taxes
Day 4: $100 in Roth, taxable $30

Day 3 convert $50 to Roth, taxable goes from $25 to $15 after paying $10 in taxes.
Day 4 $100 in Roth and $30 in taxable.

If taxes are paid from cash equivalents, then aren't we changing risk/AA and that's the reason for difference in performance?
Last edited by gilgamesh on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by youngmc » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:08 am

After reading the replies and doing a little bit of thinking, I think the answer is it doesn't really matter usually.

If you are in say the 24% tax bracket and do a conversion, you lose 24% of your shares regardless of absolute value. Or I guess more accurately you lose the ability to purchase 24% additional shares.

The only way it would matter is if the conversion caused you to jump into a higher tax bracket. In this case a higher absolute number would mean paying 32% on a larger portion of the conversion.

So the main timing goal would be to pay the lowest percentage in taxes. This would probably have more to do with someone's personal finances as a total rather than market timing.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by digarei » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:12 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:42 am
Say you have $100 in tIRA you want to convert to Roth. Tax 20%.

Day 1 you have $100 convert to Roth, pay $20 taxes and $80 converted into Roth.
Day 2 market drops 50% you are down to $40
Day 4 market gains 100% you are back to $80.

You wish to convert after the initial market drop on day 3.

Day 3: You have $50 in tIRA, convert to Roth. You pay $10 in taxes, and get $40 into Roth
Day4: market gains %100 and you are at $80.

Same ending point on Day4 of $80 either way. Taxes paid didn't matter.
This doesn’t seem like a wise move, even for those over 59 1/2. Pay the taxes from a source that is not part of the conversion.

In light of what I just learned—that the new tax law does not allow recharacterization of conversions—this adds a level of difficulty in attempts to tax manage. You could say that in general, it’s better to pay lower taxes than higher taxes and therefore more advantageous to perform conversions after a market decline (if indeed you can identify it and the market cooperates by staying at that point or recovering.) If you convert before a big decline, you’re just going to pay more taxes.
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:17 am

digarei wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:12 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:42 am
Say you have $100 in tIRA you want to convert to Roth. Tax 20%.

Day 1 you have $100 convert to Roth, pay $20 taxes and $80 converted into Roth.
Day 2 market drops 50% you are down to $40
Day 4 market gains 100% you are back to $80.

You wish to convert after the initial market drop on day 3.

Day 3: You have $50 in tIRA, convert to Roth. You pay $10 in taxes, and get $40 into Roth
Day4: market gains %100 and you are at $80.

Same ending point on Day4 of $80 either way. Taxes paid didn't matter.
This doesn’t seem like a wise move, even for those over 59 1/2. Pay the taxes from a source that is not part of the conversion.

In light of what I just learned—that the new tax law does not allow recharacterization of conversions—this adds a level of difficulty in attempts to tax manage. You could say that in general, it’s better to pay lower taxes than higher taxes and therefore more advantageous to perform conversions after a market decline (if indeed you can identify it and the market cooperates by staying at that point or recovering.) If you convert before a big decline, you’re just going to pay more taxes.
But isn't there a cost to holding funds to pay in taxes in cash equivalents until there is a crash? Shouldn't AA be equalized across board? See my above reply.

P.S: You are right, taxes should never be paid from inside retirement accounts - my first example was wrong, but the results are the same if AA/risk is kept constant, no?

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by digarei » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:20 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 am

But still, if we are keeping the AA same wouldn't it still be the same?

Taxes are paid from funds which also drops 50% and gains 100%
So, Day1 $100 converted to Roth, taxable went from $50 to $30 after paying $20 in taxes
Day 4: $100 in Roth, taxable $30

Day 3 convert $50 to Roth, taxable goes from $25 to $15 after paying $10 in taxes.
Day 4 $100 in Roth and $30 in taxable.

If taxes are paid from cash equivalents, then aren't we changing risk/AA and that's the reason for difference in performance?
No reason to bring in AA. Say that you’re converting a 60/40 fund from your 401 (k) account to the exact same fund in a Roth IRA and you pay the taxes with an equivalent 60/40 fund in your taxable account. No change in allocation.

I wouldn’t hold cash for just this purpose but I see your point. In practice, maybe you’d pay for the conversions with cash or a short term bond fund (whatever makes sense in your situation) but you adjust your allocation by rebalancing when paying the tax.
Last edited by digarei on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:23 am

digarei wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:20 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 am

But still, if we are keeping the AA same wouldn't it still be the same?

Taxes are paid from funds which also drops 50% and gains 100%
So, Day1 $100 converted to Roth, taxable went from $50 to $30 after paying $20 in taxes
Day 4: $100 in Roth, taxable $30

Day 3 convert $50 to Roth, taxable goes from $25 to $15 after paying $10 in taxes.
Day 4 $100 in Roth and $30 in taxable.

If taxes are paid from cash equivalents, then aren't we changing risk/AA and that's the reason for difference in performance?
No reason to bring in AA. Say that you’re converting a 60/40 fund from your 401 (k) account to the exact same fund in a Roth IRA and you pay the taxes with an equivalent 60/40 fund in your taxable account. No change in allocation.
I'm not talking about AA between tIRA and Roth, I'm talking about overall portfolio AA. Which includes the account where taxes are paid, which is part of the overall portfolio.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by retiredjg » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:27 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 am
But still, if we are keeping the AA same wouldn't it still be the same?
Don't know. I'm not sure what your example has to do with what the poster asked. Perhaps I'm just not following.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by digarei » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:27 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:23 am

I'm not talking about AA between tIRA and Roth, I'm talking about overall portfolio AA. Which includes the account where taxes are paid, which is part of the overall portfolio.
Right. See my edit above. I’m a slow typist :(
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:34 am

retiredjg wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:27 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 am
But still, if we are keeping the AA same wouldn't it still be the same?
Don't know. I'm not sure what your example has to do with what the poster asked. Perhaps I'm just not following.
I am trying to understand and find an answer to OP's specific question.

OP can post which non-retirement asset class is he/she getting the funds to pay for the conversion.

I'm thinking (could be wrong) if risk of the overall portfolio, including where taxes are paid is kept constant. It makes no difference whether you wait for a crash or not for Roth conversion.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by retiredjg » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:50 am

If you have $1,000 in an IRA and convert it at 20%, you will pay $200 in taxes. If your $1,000 drops to $800 and you convert at that point, you will pay $160 in taxes. That seems like a pretty straightforward difference to me.

If your point is that the $200 would have been invested similarly and also would have dropped in value....then I guess your $200 would have dropped to $160 and its a wash.

But if you pay your taxes out of savings or salary, it would not have dropped in value, so converting during a drop would be a good decision in that case.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that saving these little drips and drabs of money might be a fun financial adventure for some, but it will not make or break or even significantly affect your retirement. Most people will either have enough money or they won't. :happy

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:11 pm

Same thing with "horse race" Roth conversions. Never made sense.

So, the new rules which doesn't allow Roth rechrecterization doesn't matter in that sense, but say doing Roth conversion higher than one may want to, but recharecterize it back to exact marginal tax bracket is not possible anymore. So, if I want to do Roth conversion up to 15% tax bracket (well! No more 15%, so 12%), I have to get it right. I can't overdo and yank it back...the only disadvantage I see of the new rule.

P.S: The 2017 15% tax bracket to get zero LTCG/QD has now been changed to whatever the dollar amount threshold was for previous 15%.... Wonder how that keeps up with inflation...

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by Chip » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:51 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:11 pm
Same thing with "horse race" Roth conversions. Never made sense.
Here's a real example from 2009 to show why it makes sense. I admit it's an extreme example:

One 45k conversion was worth 90k in March of 2010. The other 45k conversion was worth 63k. March is when I was recharacterizing.

For tax reasons I only wanted one 45k conversion. Picking the first vs. the second resulted in 27k more in my Roth at no additional tax cost.

Does that make sense?

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by heyyou » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:10 pm

Will the timing of the 2018 Roth conversion really matter in the distant future? Yes, a series of annual conversions will make a difference. Yes, we can later calculate what would have been the optimal date for each of the conversions and lament the losses, but only in hindsight. Glass half full, half empty, or just enjoy what is in the glass since it is big enough and good enough for now?

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:52 pm

Chip wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:51 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:11 pm
Same thing with "horse race" Roth conversions. Never made sense.
Here's a real example from 2009 to show why it makes sense. I admit it's an extreme example:

One 45k conversion was worth 90k in March of 2010. The other 45k conversion was worth 63k. March is when I was recharacterizing.

For tax reasons I only wanted one 45k conversion. Picking the first vs. the second resulted in 27k more in my Roth at no additional tax cost.

Does that make sense?
I know EXACTLY what you are saying. What can be more straightforward right? pay the same taxes but you keep the one that grew to $90k and recharecterize the $63k.

But, when you invest that money you wanted to pay tax with, at the same asset allocation as the two asset classes you chose (one that grew to $90k and the other to $63k), I'm fairly certain you will get the same results...it just doesn't matter. I know it doesn't make intuitive sense, but I'm almost 100% sure it does.

If you don't invest the taxes due, you are changing AA/risk...and any result is because you chose less riskier AA and you just lucked out. You gain nothing from "horse races" - that's my premise, and I'm fairly certain it's true.

If I have some time later I will show you the calculations.
Last edited by gilgamesh on Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:54 pm

heyyou wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:10 pm
Will the timing of the 2018 Roth conversion really matter in the distant future? Yes, a series of annual conversions will make a difference. Yes, we can later calculate what would have been the optimal date for each of the conversions and lament the losses, but only in hindsight. Glass half full, half empty, or just enjoy what is in the glass since it is big enough and good enough for now?
You don't have to go that far...it makes no sense, right here right now.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by Chip » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:18 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:52 pm
But, when you invest that money you wanted to pay tax with, at the same asset allocation as the two asset classes you chose (one that grew to $90k and the other to $63k), I'm fairly certain you will get the same results...it just doesn't matter. I know it doesn't make intuitive sense, but I'm almost 100% sure it does.

If you don't invest the taxes due, you are changing AA/risk...and any result is because you chose less riskier AA and you just lucked out. You gain nothing from "horse races" - that's my premise, and I'm fairly certain it's true.

If I have some time later I will show you the calculations.
I'm really not following you here, so I look forward to further clarification. :beer

For the sake of the illustration, let's assume I paid 7k in tax out of my taxable account for the 45k conversion.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by Fallible » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:51 pm

youngmc wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:37 am
Assume one has a deductible IRA balance that he wants converted to a Roth. Would it be considered trying to "time the market" to wait for a market downturn to decrease the balance and pay lower taxes?
You are market timing, but another question is how long you are willing to wait. Another is what you mean by downturn, i.e., how "down" before your waiting is over.
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by Fallible » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:15 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 am
Why do you ask?

Maybe a better question to ask is "Is this a behavioral finance error?"
Rick Ferri wrote about market timing and behavioral error in this article, but I'm not sure how it might apply here:
I divide market timing into two types: intentional timing and unintentional timing. Intentional timing is based on fundamental and technical factors to determine when asset classes are attractive and when they are not, and then bets are placed accordingly. Unintentional timing is behavioral – it’s rooted in a natural fear and greed mechanism that we must learn to control.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickferri/ ... b881e9433c
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by youngmc » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:43 pm

Fallible wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:51 pm
youngmc wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:37 am
Assume one has a deductible IRA balance that he wants converted to a Roth. Would it be considered trying to "time the market" to wait for a market downturn to decrease the balance and pay lower taxes?
You are market timing, but another question is how long you are willing to wait. Another is what you mean by downturn, i.e., how "down" before your waiting is over.
Although I think it has been answered either way, I would like to edit my original question a bit. Instead of "waiting for a downturn"; if someone was unsure if he wanted to do a conversion, but after a "crash" in the market decided to take advantage and do one, would that make any sense?

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by Fallible » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:28 pm

youngmc wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:43 pm
Fallible wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:51 pm
youngmc wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:37 am
Assume one has a deductible IRA balance that he wants converted to a Roth. Would it be considered trying to "time the market" to wait for a market downturn to decrease the balance and pay lower taxes?
You are market timing, but another question is how long you are willing to wait. Another is what you mean by downturn, i.e., how "down" before your waiting is over.
Although I think it has been answered either way, I would like to edit my original question a bit. Instead of "waiting for a downturn"; if someone was unsure if he wanted to do a conversion, but after a "crash" in the market decided to take advantage and do one, would that make any sense?
I'm not certain what you're asking, but it's probably best to say that a conversion should be decided on its own merits, not on a market crash.
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by retiredjg » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:27 am

youngmc wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:43 pm
Instead of "waiting for a downturn"; if someone was unsure if he wanted to do a conversion, but after a "crash" in the market decided to take advantage and do one, would that make any sense?
It makes sense to me if the conversion makes sense in the first place.

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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:49 am

youngmc wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:37 am
Assume one has a deductible IRA balance that he wants converted to a Roth. Would it be considered trying to "time the market" to wait for a market downturn to decrease the balance and pay lower taxes?
Why does it matter whether you or someones calls it market timing or not? Labels don't matter.
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Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by gilgamesh » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:33 pm

Chip wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:18 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:52 pm
But, when you invest that money you wanted to pay tax with, at the same asset allocation as the two asset classes you chose (one that grew to $90k and the other to $63k), I'm fairly certain you will get the same results...it just doesn't matter. I know it doesn't make intuitive sense, but I'm almost 100% sure it does.

If you don't invest the taxes due, you are changing AA/risk...and any result is because you chose less riskier AA and you just lucked out. You gain nothing from "horse races" - that's my premise, and I'm fairly certain it's true.

If I have some time later I will show you the calculations.
I'm really not following you here, so I look forward to further clarification. :beer

For the sake of the illustration, let's assume I paid 7k in tax out of my taxable account for the 45k conversion.
Chip,

Another forum member once showed me the caluculations which convinced me. I tried it today and couldn't replicate it. I contacted him and even though he has received my message, he is not replying, I think he and I were wrong. So, the horse race as far as I know is a valid option...I stand corrected.

Chip
Posts: 2184
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:57 am

Re: Is this a form of Market Timing?

Post by Chip » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:14 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:33 pm
Another forum member once showed me the caluculations which convinced me. I tried it today and couldn't replicate it. I contacted him and even though he has received my message, he is not replying, I think he and I were wrong. So, the horse race as far as I know is a valid option...I stand corrected.
Thanks for looking and replying. I suspect some it may have also had to do with tax-adjusting allocations. i.e. a dollar in a Roth is worth more than a dollar in a tIRA.

It's a moot point now, however. No more horse races!

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