Wisdom of Bitcoin

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
thx1138
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by thx1138 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:24 pm

garlandwhizzer wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:21 pm
Bobcat2, I'm wondering if you're serious or joking about Bitcoin. You have always been a champion of very low risk investing with guaranteed income like annuities or TIPS ladders rather than accepting the risk of equity. Bitcoin is at the opposite end of the risk spectrum, IMO pure speculation although there is no denying it has thus far worked very well for those who got in early. Those who get in now may in the long run do very well or very poorly IMO. Larry, among others, wrote an insightful piece about Bitcoin, describing its hidden risks which are considerable. Speculation can be wildly successful or the opposite of that, a lot like the roulette wheel. Bitcoin could in time go to $100,000 or alternately it could go to zero if governments whose currency it is attempting to replace, regulate it and/or refuse to accept it in exchange for their legal tender. There is a lot of enthusiasm for it among millennials on social media but that seems to me inadequate reassurance for its long term value. If you wish to gamble with a few percent of your portfolio, that's okay I suppose, but personally I prefer more traditional investing to gambling.

Garland Whizzer
Try actually watching the linked video...

...and send your sarcasm detector in for repair :wink:

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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by zaboomafoozarg » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:04 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:23 pm
I think you need to actually follow the link and watch the video. Hopefully that will answer you're question :wink:
LOL, that guy makes some great videos.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by bberris » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:16 pm

petscii wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:55 pm
As long as you actually understand the utility of bitcoin is the inherent value, not the fact that the drooling masses ran up the price.

If you understand that, then it is not too late. If you don't then yes, it is in fact too late.
What? How would understanding affect bitcoin or its poor relatives value? I can drive a car but I don't know who it works.

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in_reality
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by in_reality » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:24 am

Look out bitcoin ... here comes sonocoin
SonoCoin looks to revolutionize the advertising industry by introducing the ultrasonic frequency transfer of coins through ads. Once a coin is collected, a customer will have the ability to exchange the SonoCoin for discounts on goods and services.
And Yes you can store them on vinyl so the cool factor here makes bitcoin look like granny's old tacky purse!
Challenge:
Bitcoin remains a complex and expensive transaction solution. Currently, the average Bitcoin transaction takes up to one hour and costs approximately $20.
Solution:
SonoCoin will strive to disrupt Bitcoin’s dominance in the gambling industry by offering faster and less expensive transactions to users. SonoCoin’s transactions will take just thirty seconds while charging significantly lower fees.
Whereas all other cryptocurrencies are numbers based, SonoCoin is a digitally encrypted audio file that operates on a proprietary blockchain system, using the Proof-of-Stake (PoS) protocol to verify transactions. The SonoCoin audio file is a sound interpretation of a code that can be recognized and recorded by any device that reproduces sound.
Bitcoin is so 2017! Try storing it on vinyl!!!

garlandwhizzer
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by garlandwhizzer » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:19 am

When I first started the video presentation I turned it off quickly realizing the kid speaking knew nothing. Now that I went back and listened to it in total, I see the whole thing is a joke which explains why a conservative investor like Bobcat2 endorsed it. My bad. Anyway we're all in agreement. Bitcoin is speculation.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by RRAAYY3 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:50 pm

petscii wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:58 pm
Being able to transfer money to any point on the planet with an Internet connection with out censorship.
and then converting it into currency with actual value? Which I’m assuming will still take a “business day” or 2.

do some people really expect bitcoin to be a widely used / easily accessible “currency” ?

yada yada blockchain - I get it - but “Bitcoin” itself I’m still very skeptical of. Congrats to those that rolled the dice 10 years ago on it

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by CnC » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:02 pm

bobcat2 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:22 pm
I was a skeptic of bitcoin, until I watched this exteremely thoughtful video on the plusses and minuses of bitcoin. How could I have been so wrong. :shock: :oops:

Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zIbVE ... e=youtu.be

Tip of the hat to Greg Mankiw for directing me to this bitcoin wisdom :!:

BobK
And this is why it is worth watching YouTube videos posted here.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by golfCaddy » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:49 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:15 am

Governments decide what is "yours" and what is not. And, in the case of the Russian government, they decide that outside their national borders.
This quote made my day.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by sreynard » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:30 pm

You guys just don't understand! You are ignorant of this investments true inherent value! You really need to get on board before it is too late! Time is running out! The Semper Augustus is truly a once in a lifetime opportunity!

sreynard
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by sreynard » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:31 pm

golfCaddy wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:49 pm
Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:15 am

Governments decide what is "yours" and what is not. And, in the case of the Russian government, they decide that outside their national borders.
This quote made my day.
See what the IRS has to say about borders....

Valuethinker
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:48 am

golfCaddy wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:49 pm
Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:15 am

Governments decide what is "yours" and what is not. And, in the case of the Russian government, they decide that outside their national borders.
This quote made my day.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/fro ... .npO1YZKmD

When I got to the guy who discovered the Polonium in former FSB/ KGB agent Litvinenko, who was poisoned in a London hotel, and it was an accident that there was a radiation poisoning specialist on the staff of University College Hospital, in a few more days it would have been undetectable.

And this scientist then "killed himself" by stabbing himself with a breadknife twice in his Oxfordshire home.

Either (quite possible) the British police are guilty of epic laziness in the investigation of a suspicious death or (also possible) they were simply ordered by higher ups not to chase it. To a degree which is often not appreciated, the London property market (and arts, politics etc.) thrives on a steady feed of money from Russian oligarchs-- we are probably the money laundering capital of Europe, if not the world (as a final destination for funds).

You don't have to believe that every one of the episodes above was a Russian "hit" to believe that things are pretty dark and extraterritorial. If you cross Putin's mob, you wind up dead. Bill Browder says he wrote his book so that if he is hit, then everyone knows who ordered the hit.

We have reached a time in history where due to technology, the state has extraordinary power and reach. The East German Stasi could not even dream of knowing our thoughts the way Facebook and Google do let alone the Great Firewall of China. Or consider what Strava just told the world about US military deployments.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by nisiprius » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:59 am

thx1138 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:43 pm
Image
Of course, that could never actually happen in re--

BBC, January 29, 2018
Robbers order gunpoint Bitcoin transfer after Moulsford break-in
Four robbers broke into a house and demanded at gunpoint the occupants transfer Bitcoins into another account.
Thames Valley Police said the aggravated burglary happened in Reading Road, Moulsford, Oxfordshire, at about 09:40 GMT on 22 January.
Four men broke in and threatened the two men and a woman inside with what appeared to be a firearm.
One was told to transfer an amount of the digital currency but the transaction failed, police said.
He was struck to the head but not seriously injured.
See? "The transaction failed," so, no problem.
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Lauretta
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Lauretta » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:53 am

bobcat2 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:22 pm
I was a skeptic of bitcoin, until I watched this exteremely thoughtful video on the plusses and minuses of bitcoin. How could I have been so wrong. :shock: :oops:

Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zIbVE ... e=youtu.be

Tip of the hat to Greg Mankiw for directing me to this bitcoin wisdom :!:

BobK
Sorry about the naive question but was it really Prof. Mankiw who directed you to the video (I had already seen it - it's very funny :D ) or was that part of the joke in your post?
I am asking because I am currently reading his books (I started doing this precisely because of the question 'what is money' prompted by bitcoin, and Mankiw in Macroenomics has a chapter devoted to the question -btw I've concluded bitcoin isn't money).
Anyway I was wondering what he thought about bitcoin as an asset class worth investing in but haven't found anything yet. However, for example Daniele Bianchi, who teaches in Warwick where Taylor (Mankiw co-author in the book Economics) was also till recently, speaks favourably of bitcoin:
http://www.wbs.ac.uk/blogs/staff/is-bit ... investors/
When everyone is thinking the same, no one is thinking at all

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bobcat2
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by bobcat2 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:58 am

Lauretta wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:53 am
bobcat2 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:22 pm
I was a skeptic of bitcoin, until I watched this exteremely thoughtful video on the plusses and minuses of bitcoin. How could I have been so wrong. :shock: :oops:

Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zIbVE ... e=youtu.be

Tip of the hat to Greg Mankiw for directing me to this bitcoin wisdom :!:

BobK
Sorry about the naive question but was it really Prof. Mankiw who directed you to the video (I had already seen it - it's very funny :D ) or was that part of the joke in your post?
I am asking because I am currently reading his books (I started doing this precisely because of the question 'what is money' prompted by bitcoin, and Mankiw in Macroenomics has a chapter devoted to the question -btw I've concluded bitcoin isn't money).
Anyway I was wondering what he thought about bitcoin as an asset class worth investing in but haven't found anything yet. However, for example Daniele Bianchi, who teaches in Warwick where Taylor (Mankiw co-author in the book Economics) was also till recently, speaks favourably of bitcoin:
http://www.wbs.ac.uk/blogs/staff/is-bit ... investors/
Lauretta, see this link to answer your query.
https://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2018/01 ... tcoin.html

BobK
In finance risk is defined as uncertainty that is consequential (nontrivial). | The two main methods of dealing with financial risk are the matching of assets to goals & diversifying.

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Lauretta
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Lauretta » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:04 am

Ah ok thanks! :happy
When everyone is thinking the same, no one is thinking at all

wfrobinette
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by wfrobinette » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:42 pm

zaboomafoozarg wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:13 am
An old friend put thousands of dollars into bitcoin in 2011 and urged me to do the same. He insisted that the government was going to collapse and only bitcoin would withstand the hyperinflation.

Instead, I bought VTSMX.

My investment has doubled since then... and his investment made him a retired multi-millionaire by the time he was 30.

Was he wise or lucky? Was I foolish or unlucky?

I don't know. But I'd much rather be in his shoes right now than mine.

Haven't talked to him in a few years now. Having that much money took him up a few social circle levels.
I put 5k(1000 coins) in 2012 sold when they hit $30 because I listened to others telling me I made 600% . 5k was 2.5% of my worth at that time.
Would have topped out at 19.5 million in early Jan :oops:

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Texanbybirth » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:47 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:42 pm
zaboomafoozarg wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:13 am
An old friend put thousands of dollars into bitcoin in 2011 and urged me to do the same. He insisted that the government was going to collapse and only bitcoin would withstand the hyperinflation.

Instead, I bought VTSMX.

My investment has doubled since then... and his investment made him a retired multi-millionaire by the time he was 30.

Was he wise or lucky? Was I foolish or unlucky?

I don't know. But I'd much rather be in his shoes right now than mine.

Haven't talked to him in a few years now. Having that much money took him up a few social circle levels.
I put 5k(1000 coins) in 2012 sold when they hit $30 because I listened to others telling me I made 600% . 5k was 2.5% of my worth at that time.
Would have topped out at 19.5 million in early Jan :oops:
Wow.
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by wfrobinette » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:48 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:52 am
nisiprius wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:25 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:13 am
An old friend put thousands of dollars into bitcoin in 2011 and urged me to do the same. He insisted that the government was going to collapse and only bitcoin would withstand the hyperinflation.

Instead, I bought VTSMX.

My investment has doubled since then... and his investment made him a retired multi-millionaire by the time he was 30.

Was he wise or lucky? Was I foolish or unlucky?

I don't know. But I'd much rather be in his shoes right now than mine.

Haven't talked to him in a few years now. Having that much money took him up a few social circle levels.
And my personal circle of some hundreds of acquaintances includes two state lottery jackpot winners, one of $30 million, one of just under $1 million.
I wonder what the odds are of that? being that close to not 1, but 2 winners?

I have a friend whose sibling won several hundred thousand as part of a consortium in a lottery - haven't seen the sibling for about 40 years.

So that's as close to as I come.
I knew 2 lottery winners. One was my high school physics teacher(35mi). The other was a year behind me in school and won about 7 or 8 years out of school. Now that guy had an interesting story. He was selling drugs and already under surveillance(he didn't know). Won the lottery and was arrested as soon as he was identified as the winner. Sentenced to a few years in prison. Never heard what happened to him after that.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by wfrobinette » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:10 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:12 pm
vitaflo wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:46 pm
... Your friend is the type of person I find funny...people who have no faith in fiat currencies until they end up with a lot of fiat currency. All of a sudden, fiat isn't so bad to be in. Funny that.
There does seem to be paradox there. Assuming he did cash out to legal tender, I wonder if others expect they'll be able to do the same, and who will be left holding the bag when it becomes widely realized that since some people have taken out more than they put in, not everyone will get what they put in back out. There's not even a clear government entity to "bar the door" or try to stem the tide and bring order (should a mass exodus occur).

I've been laughed out of a room full of twenty somethings explaining how the market works. They believed crypto had done so much good for economy because it's made people lots of $. I said it hasn't done anything for the economy. The failed to grasp the concept that for them to "cash out" in USD at bitcoin = 15k that some other person(s) had to put 15k USD into the mix. I swear these guys thought they were printing money.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Finridge » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:11 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:10 pm

I've been laughed out of a room full of twenty somethings explaining how the market works. They believed crypto had done so much good for economy because it's made people lots of $. I said it hasn't done anything for the economy. The failed to grasp the concept that for them to "cash out" in USD at bitcoin = 15k that some other person(s) had to put 15k USD into the mix. I swear these guys thought they were printing money.
This is true, but "value" (in a manner of speaking) can be created without cash-outs.

Assume we create a new crypto, "NullCoin". Let's assume that the total issuance is 100 coins, and no more can be minded. In the initial coin offering, they are sold at $1 per coin to 1,000 different investors. Immediately afterwards, the "market cap" of NullCoin is $1,000 ($1 x 1000 NullCoin).

The next day, there is the first secondary market transaction in NullCoin. One of the 1,00)original "investors" sells the one NullCoin he owns for $1,000. There was a lot of buzz over the NullCoin offering and so other "investors"were eager to buy-in, but only this original investor was willing to sell and only at $1,000)

So in that single secondary market transaction, only $1,000 changed hands. However, this single transaction sets the market value of NullCoin at $1,000 per coin, and single-handedly increases the "market cap" of NullCoin from $1,000, to $1,000,000,000.

Now, even though only an additional $1,000 changed hands, all of the original investors see themselves as having $1,000 in NullCoin, and rate their net worth as having gone up by that much. That $1,000 transaction created an additional $999,000 in wealth, seemingly out of thin air!

Or should we instead say that the "illusion of wealth" was created out of thin air? :D But don't laugh too hard. The exact same dynamic is at play in the stock market. Substitute "shares of stock" for "NullCoin" and the narrative would be just as true. And in either case, to many of the holders, it is magic. It is like a big magical printing press printing money!

But the magic only works for so long as there are other people willing to pay those kinds of prices.

Edit: And it can be "good for the economy" (again, in a manner of speaking) to the extent that people who hold the appreciated NullCoin feel richer and that changes their purchasing behavior. These changes happen even without people cashing out. They just look at their account balance and "feel richer", and it makes less likely to save funds they otherwise would, and them more likely to spend--more likely to run up credit card balances even. We saw exactly this kind of thing happen when people felt richer during the dotcom bubble and the housing bubble... I don't think that crypto is "big" enough to have any significant impact on the economy. But if it gets big enough it will impact the non-crypo economy in both positive ways (while the bubble is inflating) and negative ways (when the bubble pops). I'm hoping that crypos are on their way down, so that this won't happen.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by bobcat2 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:40 pm

[As of today] the stock market is still rising if you measure its true value in bitcoin rather than artificial fiat currency.
-Justin Wolfers


BobK
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by pokebowl » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:12 am

Glad to see bitcoin continuing to show us it truely is not correlated or bound to any of those pesky traditional investments:

Image
Nullius in verba.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by lazydavid » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:13 am

nisiprius wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:15 pm
And because the mining hardware is, apparently, purpose-built to mine bitcoin only, the large and expensive mining installations can't be repurposed to anything else.
A significant proportion of bitcoin mining hardware simply consists of rows upon rows of graphics cards. Those can obviously be repurposed to their intended purpose of playing games and such. There's quite a bit of variation in the dedicated ASIC-based miners, but I would expect that most of them could be repurposed to do anything that requires a whole lot of SHA-256 hashing. Like mining other cryptocurrencies--not all of them, but some--or (ack!) password cracking.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by nisiprius » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:00 am

lazydavid wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:13 am
nisiprius wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:15 pm
And because the mining hardware is, apparently, purpose-built to mine bitcoin only, the large and expensive mining installations can't be repurposed to anything else.
A significant proportion of bitcoin mining hardware simply consists of rows upon rows of graphics cards. Those can obviously be repurposed to their intended purpose of playing games and such. There's quite a bit of variation in the dedicated ASIC-based miners, but I would expect that most of them could be repurposed to do anything that requires a whole lot of SHA-256 hashing. Like mining other cryptocurrencies--not all of them, but some--or (ack!) password cracking.
The details are important here. Obviously, you could remove the graphics cards and re-sell them as slightly-used, slightly out-of-date graphics cards in good condition, and recover some fraction of their original cost. But is that really how they mine Bitcoin nowadays? And does the hardware "simply" consist of rows upon rows of graphics cards--you just reprogram an EPROM to start mining another currency, or is there some degree of Bitcoin-specific customization, maybe even something as trivial as the number of cards on one bus to match some bit length in the Bitcoin algorithm, that would require spinning a new motherboard to repurpose the cards?

The Long Blockchain company had claimed to have placed an order for 1,000 Antminer S9's. But apparently hadn't, or didn't, or cancelled it. But in any case, that's apparently one of the serious mining rigs you would use today. According to the company that makes it, the Antminer S9 uses 189 BM1387 custom ASICs. Can these be used to mine any other currency? Obviously if Bitmain can design and build Bitcoin-mining chips it could build them for some other currency, but I don't think replacing 189 chips could be an easy or a cheap field upgrade.
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by david1082b » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:27 am

lazydavid wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:13 am
nisiprius wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:15 pm
And because the mining hardware is, apparently, purpose-built to mine bitcoin only, the large and expensive mining installations can't be repurposed to anything else.
A significant proportion of bitcoin mining hardware simply consists of rows upon rows of graphics cards. Those can obviously be repurposed to their intended purpose of playing games and such. There's quite a bit of variation in the dedicated ASIC-based miners, but I would expect that most of them could be repurposed to do anything that requires a whole lot of SHA-256 hashing. Like mining other cryptocurrencies--not all of them, but some--or (ack!) password cracking.
Are graphics cards actually used for Bitcoin mining anymore?
GPUs can still be used but the cost of electric power to run them is more than the money you will make by mining.

Graphics cards are no longer used for Bitcoin mining. They have been replaced by dedicated computer chips called ASIC’s (application specific integrated circuits). Don’t waste your time trying to mine Bitcoin with a graphics card. https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best- ... oin-mining

Bitcoin mining is no longer profitable on consumer graphics cards because people have built sophisticated custom ASIC-based mining equipment that's far more power-efficient. But Ethereum has a memory-hungry mining algorithm that's resistant to ASIC optimization. That means mining Ethereum is still practical with a consumer graphics card if it has more than two gigabytes of memory. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... -shortage/
Other cryptos might be mined using high-end cards but Bitcoin apparently is a no-go for that. Bitcoin gets the headlines but ultimately most crypto market cap is non-Bitcoin anyway.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by knpstr » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:48 am

zaboomafoozarg wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:13 am
An old friend put thousands of dollars into bitcoin in 2011 and urged me to do the same. He insisted that the government was going to collapse and only bitcoin would withstand the hyperinflation.

Instead, I bought VTSMX.

My investment has doubled since then... and his investment made him a retired multi-millionaire by the time he was 30.

Was he wise or lucky? Was I foolish or unlucky?

I don't know. But I'd much rather be in his shoes right now than mine.

Haven't talked to him in a few years now. Having that much money took him up a few social circle levels.
Unless he is ultimately right and the world economy does collapse.
The only way someone "gets rich" off of bitcoin is that they cash out to the worthless currency they claim is the reason they bought bitcoin in the first place.
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by lazydavid » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:52 am

nisiprius wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:00 am
The details are important here. Obviously, you could remove the graphics cards and re-sell them as slightly-used, slightly out-of-date graphics cards in good condition, and recover some fraction of their original cost. But is that really how they mine Bitcoin nowadays? And does the hardware "simply" consist of rows upon rows of graphics cards--you just reprogram an EPROM to start mining another currency, or is there some degree of Bitcoin-specific customization, maybe even something as trivial as the number of cards on one bus to match some bit length in the Bitcoin algorithm, that would require spinning a new motherboard to repurpose the cards?
Seeing as the miners have driven the prices of new cards so high, it's likely they'd see a substantial proportion of the MSRP as a resale price. But that's neither here nor there. The cards themselves are general purpose, and they are plugged into an Intel motherboard that just happens to have a boatload of PCIE slots. It's really just a general-purpose computer that has been tricked out to focus on just one thing. No EPROM programming required, it's all essentially off-the-shelf hardware. If you want to mine something else, run a different GPU-optimized mining program. And to my understanding, there is no "co-processing" going on between cards--each card (and in fact each of the several hundred cores on each card) does its own work independently. Each operation is quite small, it's just the sheer volume that needs to be done that necessitates the hardware. So, provided there is sufficient backplane bandwidth (which I don't believe is a problem), output scales linearly per card, rather than having a "sweet spot" of say, 7 cards where outsized performance is seen.
nisiprius wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:00 am
The Long Blockchain company had claimed to have placed an order for 1,000 Antminer S9's. But apparently hadn't, or didn't, or cancelled it. But in any case, that's apparently one of the serious mining rigs you would use today. According to the company that makes it, the Antminer S9 uses 189 BM1387 custom ASICs. Can these be used to mine any other currency? Obviously if Bitmain can design and build Bitcoin-mining chips it could build them for some other currency, but I don't think replacing 189 chips could be an easy or a cheap field upgrade.
I wasn't speaking of replacing chips, and admittedly I'm not a chip engineer, so I don't know whether or not the datasheet (for the older BM1385) validates my theory or not. But my conjecture is that, since BTC mining is essentially just running a metric crap ton of SHA-256 hashes, it may be possible to utilize hardware designed exclusively for SHA-256 hashing for other purposes that likewise require a massive amount of SHA-256 hashes. I freely admit that I'm not an expert in this space, and may be wrong there.

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Nate79
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Nate79 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:50 am

pokebowl wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:12 am
Glad to see bitcoin continuing to show us it truely is not correlated or bound to any of those pesky traditional investments:

Image
That's an interesting chart, thanks for posting.

Bitcoin, the new leading indicator of the stock market.....

Larry2623
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Larry2623 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:23 am

wfrobinette wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:42 pm
zaboomafoozarg wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:13 am
An old friend put thousands of dollars into bitcoin in 2011 and urged me to do the same. He insisted that the government was going to collapse and only bitcoin would withstand the hyperinflation.

Instead, I bought VTSMX.

My investment has doubled since then... and his investment made him a retired multi-millionaire by the time he was 30.

Was he wise or lucky? Was I foolish or unlucky?

I don't know. But I'd much rather be in his shoes right now than mine.

Haven't talked to him in a few years now. Having that much money took him up a few social circle levels.
I put 5k(1000 coins) in 2012 sold when they hit $30 because I listened to others telling me I made 600% . 5k was 2.5% of my worth at that time.
Would have topped out at 19.5 million in early Jan :oops:
Time frame might be shorter but no different with many stocks...say you bought 1000 shares of amzn when first came out and you sold after up 600% vs holding until now. Hindsight is 20/20

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by wolf359 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:33 am

am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:11 pm
I like the idea of bitcoin as a portable store of value which can evade government control, confiscation, collapse, etc. Years ago when family immigrated to America, all their valuables had to be left behind. It would be nice to have say 1/2 of networth stored in something that could be protected and accessed anywhere in the world there is an internet connection. In the case we needed to move somewhere because of a crisis and leave our valuables behind, it would be nice to have a pot of money waiting somewhere.
I understand the desire, but I don't understand how bitcoin gets you there when its value isn't stable. If I buy $100K in bitcoins today, and I need to flee my country and start over 5 years from now, what will that bitcoin be worth? $100? 100,000,000?

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queso
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by queso » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:39 am

wolf359 wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:33 am
am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:11 pm
I like the idea of bitcoin as a portable store of value which can evade government control, confiscation, collapse, etc. Years ago when family immigrated to America, all their valuables had to be left behind. It would be nice to have say 1/2 of networth stored in something that could be protected and accessed anywhere in the world there is an internet connection. In the case we needed to move somewhere because of a crisis and leave our valuables behind, it would be nice to have a pot of money waiting somewhere.
I understand the desire, but I don't understand how bitcoin gets you there when its value isn't stable. If I buy $100K in bitcoins today, and I need to flee my country and start over 5 years from now, what will that bitcoin be worth? $100? 100,000,000?
That is why bitcoin fails not only as a currency but as a store of value as well. What use is a store of value that may fail to store its value?

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nisiprius
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by nisiprius » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:01 pm

am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:11 pm
I like the idea of bitcoin as a portable store of value which can evade government control, confiscation, collapse, etc. Years ago when family immigrated to America, all their valuables had to be left behind. It would be nice to have say 1/2 of networth stored in something that could be protected and accessed anywhere in the world there is an internet connection. In the case we needed to move somewhere because of a crisis and leave our valuables behind, it would be nice to have a pot of money waiting somewhere.
Bitcoin can't evade government control. Governments control things; it's what they do and they are good at it. In the United States, Bitcoin already is subject to gentle government control in the form of tax regulations on profits, restrictions on using it as an asset in an ETF and so forth. In the U.S., federal agents have already seized Bitcoin from a illegal dealer of counterfeit prescription drugs.

Bitcoin is already literally illegal in ten countries..

It is established law that constitutional protections normally afforded to citizens don't necessarily apply at a border (and the definition of "border" is literally wider than you might think).

Border law enforcement probably has the right to search your personal electronic devices, for example. It is quite normal for nations in financial crisis to impose currency controls and restrict people from bringing currency or more than a certain amount of valuables across a border. There is nothing obvious to stop them, legally or technically, from preventing people from bringing Bitcoin across a border if they wanted to do so.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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flossy21
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by flossy21 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:05 pm

I heard on NPR this morning that the IRS is going to get aggressive with people who aren't reporting their crypto-currency gains on their taxes. Apparently none of the exchanges issue 1099's so its up to the individual currency holder to report honestly.

Of course...they mostly aren't reporting at all.

Here's an article discussing how the exchanges are getting subpoenaed for the info...

https://blockexplorer.com/news/u-s-bitc ... ta-to-irs/

The point being, if you made gains in crypto-currently you better be reporting it on your taxes.

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JoMoney
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by JoMoney » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:39 pm

I wonder where these cyrpto "assets" are determined to be held? Even beyond reporting for taxes, if you own enough of it, is there potential FBAR requirements? Running afoul of that, even if you don't owe taxes could be a rough penalty.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

Jonathan
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Jonathan » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:37 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:01 pm
Bitcoin is already literally illegal in ten countries..
FALSE. When I read that article, I see that Bitcoin is illegal in 8 countries, not 10: Algeria, Morocco, Bolivia, Ecuador, Kyrgyzstan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Cambodia. Bitcoin is legal in over 95% of countries.
nisiprius wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:01 pm
Border law enforcement probably has the right to search your personal electronic devices, for example. It is quite normal for nations in financial crisis to impose currency controls and restrict people from bringing currency or more than a certain amount of valuables across a border. There is nothing obvious to stop them, legally or technically, from preventing people from bringing Bitcoin across a border if they wanted to do so.
FALSE. People can memorize 12 words that can be used to completely recover all of their bitcoin holdings. More info: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mnemonic_phrase. I'm not sure why you are spreading this falsehood; we have discussed this before.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by Epsilon Delta » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:10 pm

GPUs are general purpose devices and could be used on any highly parallizable computation, weather forecasting, simulating the formation of galaxies, even generating CGI movies. The list is very large. You could do many of these with the cards in situ.

On the other hand there are very few uses for computing massive numbers of SHA-256 hashes Mining certain crypto currencies, password cracking, seeking collisions to falsify documents and researching the nature of SHA-256 may be the entire list.

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greg24
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by greg24 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:24 pm

Store of value?

Nearly 4 million of the 21 million possible bitcoins are lost forever.

http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/

Yeah, this is going to end well.

RRAAYY3
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by RRAAYY3 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:27 pm

greg24 wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:24 pm
Store of value?

Nearly 4 million of the 21 million possible bitcoins are lost forever.

http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/

Yeah, this is going to end well.
The more I learn, the more ridiculous bitcoin gets.

I actively plead with loved ones not to “invest” in this garbage

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by RRAAYY3 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:28 pm

Jonathan wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:37 pm
nisiprius wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:01 pm
Bitcoin is already literally illegal in ten countries..
FALSE. When I read that article, I see that Bitcoin is illegal in 8 countries, not 10: Algeria, Morocco, Bolivia, Ecuador, Kyrgyzstan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Cambodia. Bitcoin is legal in over 95% of countries.
nisiprius wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:01 pm
Border law enforcement probably has the right to search your personal electronic devices, for example. It is quite normal for nations in financial crisis to impose currency controls and restrict people from bringing currency or more than a certain amount of valuables across a border. There is nothing obvious to stop them, legally or technically, from preventing people from bringing Bitcoin across a border if they wanted to do so.
FALSE. People can memorize 12 words that can be used to completely recover all of their bitcoin holdings. More info: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mnemonic_phrase. I'm not sure why you are spreading this falsehood; we have discussed this before.
“It’s only illegal in 8 countries and people can memorize words”

wassabi
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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by wassabi » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:33 pm

How is this thread any different than the many other bitcoin threads that ridicule and make fun of it and anyone who thinks it’s a good investment? The original post isn’t even actionable - it’s just trolling bitcoin.

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Re: Wisdom of Bitcoin

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:26 pm

This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted, derailed on illegal aspects). See: Locked Topics
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