Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:20 pm

Good to hear. And a good reminder of the difference between an investment and a speculation.
"You will never see a fund from Vanguard on bitcoin," Buckley told CNBC's Bob Pisani on Monday. "We tend to stay away from assets that don't have underlying economic value. They don't generate earnings or cash flows."
"The bitcoin – its value is based off of scarcity – and an artificial scarcity that's out there," he explained. "It's really tough to imagine where the long-term return comes from other than speculation."

Buckley compared the lack of fundamental economic value in bitcoin to a lack of fundamental value in gold, an asset class which Vanguard also avoids.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/vanguar ... om-us.html
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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:22 pm

I hope he sugar-coated those words; he may wind up eating them one day. Never is an awfully long time.
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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by jayk238 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:25 pm

There is no sugar coating. Gold Silver other assets like these are not held by vanguard

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by david1082b » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm

Buckley compared the lack of fundamental economic value in bitcoin to a lack of fundamental value in gold, an asset class which Vanguard also avoids.
Vanguard's Precious Metals and Mining fund is a curiosity, essentially a bunch of PM mining stocks mostly from Canada. If there was ever a Vanguard fund that looks out of place in the line-up, this would be it. https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... irect=true

The "risk potential" chart says "more risk / more reward" for number 5, but this fund has returned a nominal 4.5% annually since its start in 1984, surely one of the worst performers from any Vanguard fund that is at least 20 years old. I wish Vanguard would not equate volatility and concentration risk with the potential for "more reward", since it clearly breaks down in many cases like this.
Last edited by david1082b on Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm

jayk238 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:25 pm
There is no sugar coating. Gold Silver other assets like these are not held by vanguard
Vanguard offers a precious metals and mining fund, VGPMX.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by whodidntante » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:37 pm

Bogle initially rejected ETFs. Now Vanguard is playing catch up to Blackrock.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by Noobvestor » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:39 pm

whodidntante wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:37 pm
Bogle initially rejected ETFs. Now Vanguard is playing catch up to Blackrock.
Hmmm. I thought they were ahead of the game by patenting the use of ETFs as a share class of mutual funds.
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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by slbnoob » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:45 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm
jayk238 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:25 pm
There is no sugar coating. Gold Silver other assets like these are not held by vanguard
Vanguard offers a precious metals and mining fund, VGPMX.
Right. But the fund doesn't hold gold and silver, rather the companies which deal with mining them. This would be akin to saying VG wouldn't offer a bitcoin fund which holds BTC or any other crypto. However, it doesn't rule out that any other index fund/ETF would not hold any company which deals with crypto. Hopefully, those companies will have an underlying economic fundamental and generate earnings.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by jayk238 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:52 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm
jayk238 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:25 pm
There is no sugar coating. Gold Silver other assets like these are not held by vanguard
Vanguard offers a precious metals and mining fund, VGPMX.
Not remotely the same.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by tennisplyr » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:53 pm

According to Wikipedia:

"Bitcoins are created as a reward for a process known as mining. They can be exchanged for other currencies, products, and services. As of February 2015, over 100,000 merchants and vendors accepted bitcoin as payment. Research produced by the University of Cambridge estimates that in 2017, there are 2.9 to 5.8 million unique users using a cryptocurrency wallet, most of them using bitcoin."

Sounds like they might have benefits to consumers and industry that could merit buying and selling like Apple, GM, Pepsi...no?
Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by TigerNest » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:59 pm

Vanguard also doesn't offer a baseball card-based mutual fund either.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by lack_ey » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:02 pm

Noobvestor wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:39 pm
whodidntante wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:37 pm
Bogle initially rejected ETFs. Now Vanguard is playing catch up to Blackrock.
Hmmm. I thought they were ahead of the game by patenting the use of ETFs as a share class of mutual funds.
In some sense, sure. I think the meaning intended was being behind on AUM, which they are. It's something like $1.41 trillion for Blackrock (iShares) to $0.89 trillion for Vanguard.

Though really, everybody should be playing catch-up to State Street, right? And they're third ($0.66 trillion), behind Vanguard. So Vanguard has caught up to them.

In any case, you can hold cryptocurrencies yourself, especially if it's only one. You don't need a fund manager for this. Also, for the near future it looks like the SEC's concerns about bitcoin funds are such that they won't be resolved soon, so there won't even be funds available from anybody, no matter what Vanguard wants to do.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by triceratop » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:07 pm

lack_ey wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:02 pm
Noobvestor wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:39 pm
whodidntante wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:37 pm
Bogle initially rejected ETFs. Now Vanguard is playing catch up to Blackrock.
Hmmm. I thought they were ahead of the game by patenting the use of ETFs as a share class of mutual funds.
In some sense, sure. I think the meaning intended was being behind on AUM, which they are. It's something like $1.41 trillion for Blackrock (iShares) to $0.89 trillion for Vanguard.

Though really, everybody should be playing catch-up to State Street, right? And they're third ($0.66 trillion), behind Vanguard. So Vanguard has caught up to them.
Besides which, the dual share class structure only helps Vanguard's mutual fund business. You could argue (I will not) that it only hurts their ETF investors. At best it is neutral. And, it is a benefit only for Vanguard customers -- as a business Blackrock (here is where it is useful to distinguish iShares from Blackrock) still is way ahead of Vanguard.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by RRAAYY3 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm

I really, really can’t wait for this “crypto”nonsense to go away

Use real currency, your real credit cards (and their “crypto rewards”, and stop pretending you’re outsmarting the system


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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:46 am

whodidntante wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:37 pm
Bogle initially rejected ETFs. Now Vanguard is playing catch up to Blackrock.
Blackrock is playing catch up to Blackrock.

They acquired Barclays Global Investors, which owned ishares, the first ETF provider (other than a Canadian anomaly), which they had acquired from Wells Fargo a long time ago.

Vanguard is largely run for the benefit of its existing fund investors.

Blackrock is run for the benefit of its shareholders.

There is a big difference.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:27 am

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:20 pm
Good to hear. And a good reminder of the difference between an investment and a speculation.
"You will never see a fund from Vanguard on bitcoin," Buckley told CNBC's Bob Pisani on Monday. "We tend to stay away from assets that don't have underlying economic value. They don't generate earnings or cash flows."
"The bitcoin – its value is based off of scarcity – and an artificial scarcity that's out there," he explained. "It's really tough to imagine where the long-term return comes from other than speculation."

Buckley compared the lack of fundamental economic value in bitcoin to a lack of fundamental value in gold, an asset class which Vanguard also avoids.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/vanguar ... om-us.html
One of the things I like about Vanguard is a commitment to what is best for the client.

Vanguard won't sell you a product they think is bad for you, even if you want it.

Even the Precious Metals fund, anomalous in some ways, has a purpose-- PM & PM stocks have a degree of hedging against bad financial shocks.

For most fund managers, the tension between the business of fund management and the management of funds grows-- as a business they need to expand, increase fee revenues, etc.

VG more so than any other fund management firm, because of its history and its unusual structure, strives not to fall into that trap. TIAA CREF was perhaps like that, but seems to have changed in recent years.

(note I am not US based, and am not currently a direct client of VG, the ETFs I hold are all ishares).

They don't think cryptocurrencies are a good investment, and they see the obvious bubble characteristics in the market for them, now. Thus, they don't propose to go down that route.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by RudyS » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:33 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm
jayk238 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:25 pm
There is no sugar coating. Gold Silver other assets like these are not held by vanguard
Vanguard offers a precious metals and mining fund, VGPMX.
Based on my results, I wish they hadn't. But, it's another example of "poor timing."

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by diy60 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:51 am

slbnoob wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm
jayk238 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:25 pm
There is no sugar coating. Gold Silver other assets like these are not held by vanguard
Vanguard offers a precious metals and mining fund, VGPMX.
Right. But the fund doesn't hold gold and silver, rather the companies which deal with mining them. This would be akin to saying VG wouldn't offer a bitcoin fund which holds BTC or any other crypto. However, it doesn't rule out that any other index fund/ETF would not hold any company which deals with crypto. Hopefully, those companies will have an underlying economic fundamental and generate earnings.
A quick read of the prospectus for VGPMX says otherwise:

"The fund may invest up to 100% of its assets in non-U.S. companies and may place up to 20% of its assets directly in gold, silver, or other precious-metal bullion and coins."

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by lolbatross » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:22 pm

I am glad that Vanguard is not creating a bitcoin fund - a bitcoin fund serves one purpose which is speculation / investing indirectly in the price of btc. Wall Street and even retail speculators are not doing much to ensure bitcoin's future even if they may be driving the price higher.

As someone who hopes for the long term success of bitcoin I am more excited by seeing people interested in managing their own wallet and even running a full node.

I would recommend that people invest the time in learning about what bitcoin is. Right now there is so many people with uninformed strong opinions both on these forums and elsewhere. It doesn't matter weather or not the price of bitcoin crashes. Bitcoin is like Tesla - there is tons of promise and allure -arguably over priced - but if the technical issues can be overcome then the product can truly become something for the masses.

Some resources:
any of the videos or books by Andreas Antonopoulos
anything by Jameson Lopp https://twitter.com/lopp
lot of good stuff by Nick Szalbo http://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by Whakamole » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:31 pm

RudyS wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:33 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm
jayk238 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:25 pm
There is no sugar coating. Gold Silver other assets like these are not held by vanguard
Vanguard offers a precious metals and mining fund, VGPMX.
Based on my results, I wish they hadn't. But, it's another example of "poor timing."
Perhaps, but Vanguard has a number of sector funds. There is not much difference between VGPMX and VGENX (Energy) or VGHCX (Health care.)

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by patrick » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:03 pm

lack_ey wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:02 pm
In any case, you can hold cryptocurrencies yourself, especially if it's only one. You don't need a fund manager for this. Also, for the near future it looks like the SEC's concerns about bitcoin funds are such that they won't be resolved soon, so there won't even be funds available from anybody, no matter what Vanguard wants to do.
There are a huge number of cryptocurrencies to choose from. If you are going to invest in them at all it would seem that, just like with stocks, buying an index fund would make more sense than trying to pick one (or a few).

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by dumbmoney » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:19 pm

https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support

"Given the overall success that the Bitcoin community has achieved...we’re certainly happy to see any novel, ambitious project do so well...This has led to Bitcoin becoming less useful for payments, however...Empirically, there are fewer and fewer use cases for which accepting or paying with Bitcoin makes sense."

This is brutal satire (it IS satire, right?)
I am pleased to report that the invisible forces of destruction have been unmasked, marking a turning point chapter when the fraudulent and speculative winds are cast into the inferno of extinction.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by Nate79 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:44 pm

Hopefully the SEC does not give in to pressure. I can not imagine any fund of bitcoin passing any type of regulatory review since the underlying currency is so full of manipulation, fraud, lack of transparency, etc.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by david1082b » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:46 pm

Whakamole wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:31 pm
RudyS wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:33 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm
jayk238 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:25 pm
There is no sugar coating. Gold Silver other assets like these are not held by vanguard
Vanguard offers a precious metals and mining fund, VGPMX.
Based on my results, I wish they hadn't. But, it's another example of "poor timing."
Perhaps, but Vanguard has a number of sector funds. There is not much difference between VGPMX and VGENX (Energy) or VGHCX (Health care.)
Yeah but VGPMX's description page says right near the bottom:
The fund [...] may place up to 20% of its assets directly in gold, silver, or other precious-metal bullion and coins. https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... true#tab=2
Does the energy fund have the ability to hold 20% of its assets in barrels of crude oil? Can the healthcare fund hold 20% of its assets in drugs? I think Vanguard needs to start a cryptocurrency mining fund that can have up to 20% of its assets in cryptocurrencies themselves. :beer :moneybag :greedy :oops:

Joking aside, I think VGPMX was a missed opportunity to create a decent Permanent Portfolio-type fund, using indexing for the stock and bond portions. It seems that the active mutual fund called Permanent Portfolio has always used active stock-picking, with all the pitfalls that come with that.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by david1082b » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:32 pm

In any case, why does Vanguard feel the need for concentrated sector funds anyway? Aren't they represented in general index funds? The healthcare fund might have returned 16% annualized since 1984, but I would still argue that it was not a sensible thing to offer. Why not let other fund providers have a sector fund for everything and every region? Vanguard also has a "Pacific stock index" and an "emerging" index, fairly unnecessary IMO. The emerging index fund arrived in 1994, not far from the top before the AFC started. Performance chasing perhaps, since the emerging indexes surged a lot from 1990 to 1994. The more Vanguard offers a confusing array of concentrated funds, the more tempted people can be to tilt to unnecessary places and lose the big picture.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by Elbowman » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:53 pm

Don't get me wrong, I don't hold any cryptocurrency, and I am looking forward to the schadenfreude of a serious Bitcoin crash. However, there are cryptocurrency models where the transaction fees are distributed among the token holders rather than the miners. This would make those cryptocurrencies generative assets.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by Helo80 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:03 pm

"Never" is a strong word, but I get what they're saying.

Currency wise though, IDK if I would ever want to "invest" in a "Asian Currency Index", "Middle East Currency Index", "European Currency Index".... or any other index fund based strictly off of currency. There probably exists ETFs somewhere of these, but I'm sure as heck not actively seeking them out. I just can't see myself ever looking to invest in such things unless a very strong argument were made for htem.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by nisiprius » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:07 pm

TigerNest wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:59 pm
Vanguard also doesn't offer a baseball card-based mutual fund either.
But never say never. Never is a strong word. Baseball cards are excellent diversifiers, having low correlation with stocks. And, just imagine if you were to construct an index fund out of different kinds of baseball cards, that would reduce risk the same way it does with stocks.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by nisiprius » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:15 pm

david1082b wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:32 pm
...In any case, why does Vanguard feel the need for concentrated sector funds anyway? Aren't they represented in general index funds?...
John C. Bogle, as quoted on p. 111 of The House that Bogle Built:
I made a lot of mistakes. I allowed Vanguard to launch [closed-end] real estate funds. I also, in a moment of weakness--I was very ill at the time--started our sector funds. I thought we had created a system that was better than Fidelity's sector funds. But it was a marketing decision.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by linenfort » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:36 pm

fortfun wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:01 pm
Enjoyed reading this today:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/01/ ... is-stupid/
That was great!
bogleheads, don't knock state lotteries. They helped defund the mafia.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by fortfun » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:49 pm

linenfort wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:36 pm
fortfun wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:01 pm
Enjoyed reading this today:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/01/ ... is-stupid/
That was great!
I guess "forts" must think alike :)

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by linenfort » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:55 pm

Yes, we have good taste. That’s our collective forte.
bogleheads, don't knock state lotteries. They helped defund the mafia.

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Re: Vanguard chief says "You will never see a bitcoin fund from us"

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:04 pm

Hardly ever say never. :)
PJW

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