Fear of dying with too much money?

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SrGrumpy
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by SrGrumpy » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:39 pm

I hope I die with a lot of money, because I plan to be interred in some high-end cemetery real estate.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:41 pm

Given our low withdrawal rate, it is possible we will depart life with a good portion of our assets unspent. But, maybe not, as my crystal ball is cloudy.

If there are assets left after our deaths, then we will be happy to pass them on to our loved ones and loved organizations. The amount is immaterial to me, it will be what it will be, large, moderate, or small. No fear of dying with too much money.

We live a very comfortable lifestyle, we aren't skimping on our needs, and most of our wants have been satisfied. A larger spending amount wouldn't bring us any more happiness that I can see.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

delamer
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by delamer » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:47 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:37 pm
delamer wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:31 pm
Your post seems pretty glib about the prospect of running out of money.
That was certainly not my intent. But many Bogleheads have made a point that actually exhausting a sizable portfolio during retirement is something so rare as to not be a very realistic possibility for those reading this forum.

It could be said that many are 'glib' about the prospect of people working many additional years doing something they don't truly enjoy for an extra margin of safety on top of other margins of safety that they already have.

There are two ditches on both sides of the road. Running out of money is indeed serious, but as I already noted, I've seen a family disintegrate due to a large inheritance. I think that many would agree that both outcomes are unacceptable.
For me, ending up in the “running out of money” ditch is much scarier than ending up in the “dying with too much money” ditch.

We all have to make that calculation ourselves. And people need to, and hopefully do, take into account that we all have personal perspectives when giving advice on this forum.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by TheHouse7 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:55 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:37 pm
delamer wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:31 pm
Your post seems pretty glib about the prospect of running out of money.
That was certainly not my intent. But many Bogleheads have made a point that actually exhausting a sizable portfolio during retirement is something so rare as to not be a very realistic possibility for those reading this forum.

It could be said that many are 'glib' about the prospect of people working many additional years doing something they don't truly enjoy for an extra margin of safety on top of other margins of safety that they already have.

There are two ditches on both sides of the road. Running out of money is indeed serious, but as I already noted, I've seen a family disintegrate due to a large inheritance. I think that many would agree that both outcomes are unacceptable.
I'm to young to be thinking about this topic, but couldn't you have a will/trust in place to give excess away to charity. Don't we often see the ultra rich resolve this issue often?
"PSX will always go up 20%, why invest in anything else?!" -Father-in-law early retired.

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willthrill81
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:45 pm

TheHouse7 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:55 pm
I'm to young to be thinking about this topic, but couldn't you have a will/trust in place to give excess away to charity. Don't we often see the ultra rich resolve this issue often?
Yes, but that can create family issues as well. If you leave 'too much' of your estate to charities rather than your heirs, how will your heirs respond? Conversely, if you leave 'too much' to your heirs, that can breed long-term problems of its own.

This is definitely a first-world problem and far from the worst thing one might have to deal with, but it's still a very real problem for many who have been diligent to save and invest wisely. Even though I'm probably 15-20 years from retirement, I'm already thinking about the most appropriate way for my estate to be divested (already have a will in place, but it's a lesser issue now due to my relatively limited portfolio size).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Toons
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by Toons » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:53 pm

Leaving this earth with money left behind?
Enjoy
My Family.
I'm gonna focus my thoughts on something else,
Like Going Back To
Big Pine Key.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee

lazyday
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by lazyday » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:58 pm

Spending an extra $100 or $100K on myself will improve my life much less than it can improve the lives of others.

My family will inherit a portion of my assets, but the largest beneficiary is a charity.

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celia
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by celia » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:14 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Here are some of the post's downsides to dying with too much money.
1. It means you worked longer than you needed to.
2. It might mean that you deprived yourself of some pleasures by being too frugal.
3. Perhaps there are other people who could have benefited from your income but did not.
4. You might trigger inheritance or estate taxes.
5. You might ultimately hand down your money to someone who doesn’t really need it.

I've personally witnessed all but #4 on that list. In one family, the parents were extremely frugal (didn't even buy toilet paper, use your imagination), and died with a sizable estate.
I suppose you mean "not buying toilet paper" is downside #2. But I don't see that as one of life's pleasures. :oops:

jebmke
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by jebmke » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:18 pm

I don't see where #1 as a problem unless the only reason you are working is to raise money to quit.

It is also possible that the money came from somewhere other than working (inheritance, lottery, bank robbery) so it could be uncorrelated.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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willthrill81
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:35 pm

celia wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:14 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Here are some of the post's downsides to dying with too much money.
1. It means you worked longer than you needed to.
2. It might mean that you deprived yourself of some pleasures by being too frugal.
3. Perhaps there are other people who could have benefited from your income but did not.
4. You might trigger inheritance or estate taxes.
5. You might ultimately hand down your money to someone who doesn’t really need it.

I've personally witnessed all but #4 on that list. In one family, the parents were extremely frugal (didn't even buy toilet paper, use your imagination), and died with a sizable estate.
I suppose you mean "not buying toilet paper" is downside #2. But I don't see that as one of life's pleasures. :oops:
That depends on your point of view.

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DrGoogle2017
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:41 pm

What’s wrong with old newspapers?

Agggm
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by Agggm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:00 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:37 pm
The White Coat Investor has a blog post today that is republished from Passive Income MD. It discusses the counter-fear to the "fear of running out of money," (FOROOM) namely, the "fear of dying with too much money."

Here are some of the post's downsides to dying with too much money.
1. It means you worked longer than you needed to.
2. It might mean that you deprived yourself of some pleasures by being too frugal.
3. Perhaps there are other people who could have benefited from your income but did not.
4. You might trigger inheritance or estate taxes.
5. You might ultimately hand down your money to someone who doesn’t really need it.

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/downs ... uch-money/

I've personally witnessed all but #4 on that list. In one family, the parents were extremely frugal (didn't even buy toilet paper, use your imagination), and died with a sizable estate. Their kids wound up fighting over it, and it pretty much destroyed the family's relationships.

Obviously, it is impossible to know up front precisely how much money one needs to be FI or retirement safely because there are many unknowns. But when I hear people talking about a sub-3% withdrawal rate, I really think that they are letting the FOROOM take precedence over everything else.

There are ways to combat this fear and very real risk of dying with too much money. Annuities, whether deferred or immediate, can actually help with both FOROOM and dying with too much money since upon death, there is (usually) no money left over (that was used to buy the annuity). The Bogleheads' variable percentage withdrawal can also help with this situation on both counts.

This is where I think that fixed withdrawal rates like the '4% rule' really fall short. Depending on the precise percent used, market conditions, etc., you're very unlikely to die in the 'sweet spot' of leaving 'just enough' behind. What is most likely to happen is that either (1) you'll die with far more than you needed or (2) you'll run out of money if your starting withdrawal percentage was too big. The second concern isn't really a big deal since no sane person will continue drawing down a failing portfolio until it is entirely exhausted, but their withdrawals could become small.

Consequently, I like flexible withdrawal rates (e.g. fixed percentage withdrawals) like 5% of annual ending portfolio balance, assuming that the retiree is able and willing to decrease their spending if/when needed. These have done a much better of job at converting the portfolio's balance into withdrawals over a retirement period, and it's literally impossible to ever run out of money. I'm not sure, though, how well this method addresses FOROOM or the fear of dying with too much.
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by azanon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:15 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Consequently, I like flexible withdrawal rates (e.g. fixed percentage withdrawals) like 5% of annual ending portfolio balance, assuming that the retiree is able and willing to decrease their spending if/when needed. These have done a much better of job at converting the portfolio's balance into withdrawals over a retirement period, and it's literally impossible to ever run out of money. I'm not sure, though, how well this method addresses FOROOM or the fear of dying with too much.
If you really want to address this concern (I don't blame you, I will), then you can do a whole lot better than that. A great start (and probably a good enough end) is "our" (well, longinvest's) very own Variable Percentage Withdrawal. It's going to have a "withdrawal efficiency rating" quite a bit greater than 5% of annual ending portfolio balance. I've studied several of these (several superior to the off the cuff one you suggested) and from what I can tell, the very best ones are designed to actually go to 0 by a date you have probably less than 1% chance of living to anyway. And if by some fortunate chance you actually start to get close to the end using one of these methods, you can just "move the goalpost".

Now if you expire at, ole say, 75 using one of these methods, well then you were just always going to die with lots of money. Even the best methods require that you live to at least 90 to not die with too much - that is unless you just annuitize most of your money.

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willthrill81
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:22 pm

azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Consequently, I like flexible withdrawal rates (e.g. fixed percentage withdrawals) like 5% of annual ending portfolio balance, assuming that the retiree is able and willing to decrease their spending if/when needed. These have done a much better of job at converting the portfolio's balance into withdrawals over a retirement period, and it's literally impossible to ever run out of money. I'm not sure, though, how well this method addresses FOROOM or the fear of dying with too much.
If you really want to address this concern (I don't blame you, I will), then you can do a whole lot better than that. A great start (and probably a good enough end) is "our" (well, longinvest's) very own Variable Percentage Withdrawal. It's going to have a "withdrawal efficiency rating" quite a bit greater than 5% of annual ending portfolio balance. I've studied several of these (several superior to the off the cuff one you suggested) and from what I can tell, the very best ones are designed to actually go to 0 by a date you have probably less than 1% chance of living to anyway. And if by some fortunate chance you actually start to get close to the end using one of these methods, you can just "move the goalpost".

Now if you expire at, ole say, 75 using one of these methods, well then you were just always going to die with lots of money. Even the best methods require that you live to at least 90 to not die with too much - that is unless you just annuitize most of your money.
I agree, which is why I said this in the OP.
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:37 pm
There are ways to combat this fear and very real risk of dying with too much money. Annuities, whether deferred or immediate, can actually help with both FOROOM and dying with too much money since upon death, there is (usually) no money left over (that was used to buy the annuity). The Bogleheads' variable percentage withdrawal can also help with this situation on both counts.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by zaboomafoozarg » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:25 pm

If I end up with too much money, I'll just pay a bunch of it to take a trip to freakin' space.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by azanon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:26 pm

Oh ok great. Go with that (VPW) and lose the 5% of ending balance "method" (quotes because it's so atrocious). There are a couple of other effective ones out there though, but my personal favorite is still VPW. I admit though, I'll probably add 5 years to my VPW chart cause I'm a health nut. I'm assuming the VPW chart was designed with the average human in mind.
Last edited by azanon on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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camillus
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by camillus » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:28 pm

The OP reminded me of some things I learned in undergrad Psychology 101: Erik Erikson's developmental stages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson%2 ... 5_–_death)

It seems to me that the antidote for "dying with too much money" is looking back on your life and then looking forward on what kind of legacy you'd like to leave either for family or a cause - making concrete actions that make you proud.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by azanon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:30 pm

I personally don't understand legacy. I think more like George Carlin. What relevance is legacy to a dead person?

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:34 pm

azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:30 pm
I personally don't understand legacy. I think more like George Carlin. What relevance is legacy to a dead person?
If you don't 'get it', I don't think anyone else can really 'get you there'.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by azanon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:38 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:34 pm
azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:30 pm
I personally don't understand legacy. I think more like George Carlin. What relevance is legacy to a dead person?
If you don't 'get it', I don't think anyone else can really 'get you there'.
It's the other way around. But I don't try because I'd be cruel if they couldn't handle it.

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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by zaboomafoozarg » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:38 pm

azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:30 pm
I personally don't understand legacy. I think more like George Carlin. What relevance is legacy to a dead person?
I think it matters to me because I probably won't ever have kids, so at least I want someone to remember me.

Always thought having a building or something named after me would be cool.

hulburt1
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by hulburt1 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:40 pm

I've taken what I have and take that amount and divide 80 by it. That's when I think I'm going to die. So I have 15 years to live can spend about 100000 a year. If anything is left my wife and kids and our 2 cats get. Plus a house. Wife has her own money.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by azanon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:42 pm

zaboomafoozarg wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:38 pm
azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:30 pm
I personally don't understand legacy. I think more like George Carlin. What relevance is legacy to a dead person?
I think it matters to me because I probably won't ever have kids, so at least I want someone to remember me.

Always thought having a building or something named after me would be cool.
Well, I guess if that were really important to you or someone else, I'd probably ensure that it happened before I died rather than hoping everything falls into place when I'm not around to make sure that it does. But I guess if that's ironed out well enough, such as in a trust, you could do it afterwards. But again, personality wise, if I were so inclined, I'd rather see it happen in my lifetime so I could enjoy it too.

ResearchMed
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by ResearchMed » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:50 pm

azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:42 pm
zaboomafoozarg wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:38 pm
azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:30 pm
I personally don't understand legacy. I think more like George Carlin. What relevance is legacy to a dead person?
I think it matters to me because I probably won't ever have kids, so at least I want someone to remember me.

Always thought having a building or something named after me would be cool.
Well, I guess if that were really important to you or someone else, I'd probably ensure that it happened before I died rather than hoping everything falls into place when I'm not around to make sure that it does. But I guess if that's ironed out well enough, such as in a trust, you could do it afterwards. But again, personality wise, if I were so inclined, I'd rather see it happen in my lifetime so I could enjoy it too.
My mother worked at a museum for some years.
It was a small/medium, family foundation type of thing.

The father had a special collection that he had accumulated over many decades, and had spent a vast fortune for specimens.
He arranged that after his death, a museum should be set up with certain specified funding.
His wife quite wisely suggested (insisted, I think, was actually the operative word) that he should create the museum while he could still enjoy it.

So he did.
And he enjoyed it greatly, for many more years than would have been expected.
He used to putter around, help with new exhibits, and also make additional trips around the world searching for new specimens/exhibits.

:happy

RM
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by moghopper » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:54 pm

bigred77 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:38 pm
Dying with too much money is a symptom of a problem I do perceive on Bogleheads and that’s the pursuit of absolute economic certainty regardless of cost.
YES! This exactly. So many on this thread have responded along the lines of "I could never have too much money..."

But that misses the point. It isn't the money. The money is the symptom of missed opportunity cost.

Unfortunately, most will only see this too late.

ResearchMed
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"PRIORITIES" - Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by ResearchMed » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:02 pm

This seems like an appropriate place for a reminder about a thread that was important to many:

"Priorities", started by protagonist.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=170562&

His first sentence is:

"I'm 63. Last week I had a heart attack on the way to the airport to play music abroad."

A later paragraph in that first post is:

"I'm usually a rather private person (other than here, only a few of my closest friends know what happened to me). But, in the time that I have frequented this forum, I feel that there is a significant segment of people who post here who, IMHO, are overly obsessed with making money and planning for a future that they cannot control. You can spend your life from age 18 predominantly dedicated to making sure you don't run out of money when you are 100. You can postpone joy indefinitely and just hope you are healthy enough down the road to enjoy your bundle. Or you can live the way you want to live today, staying well within your means, try to save if you can, enjoy your life, just not sweat it....knowing you might run out of money at 95, but on the other hand you might die at 40 or 50 or 60 or tomorrow, and some things just cannot be controlled."

Many people, including us, posted in this thread, quite a variety of YOLO (You Only Live Once) comments, which need not mean squandering, not at all.

We are among those who expect to be comfortable as we age, but we found ourselves past "regular" retirement age, with DH still working full time and planning another multi-year project... because he genuinely enjoys his work, and gets significant satisfaction from it (also aka "doing good").
We've discussed many a time that IF he retired, he'd likely continue to do much the same, but without being paid, and we decided that was not a prudent plan...

However... we hadn't had a "real" vacation other than our honeymoon (we married late in life, so it wasn't as long ago as it might seem, at least).
All of our "vacations", before and after marriage, had been weekends (long weekends, if lucky!) before/after business trips/conferences.

So we belatedly planned a special cruise and land vacation, as a combo major birthday and "pre-retirement" celebration.
We splurged, and decided to go business class for the 11+ hour flight. (This was before we started using awards for premium international travel. It was all cash. Yes, a splurge, for this one trip.)

And with less than 2 weeks before departure, DH had a medical emergency.
The only "travel" we did for the next 2 months or so was to/from hospitals, clinics, physician offices and back again. And again. Sometimes every single day for a week or two, non-stop.
For a while, there was considerable concern/likelihood of a major and permanent disability.

But he was lucky, and with some experimental procedures, he's just about fine now.

And... we had taken out travel insurance.
Others have said, if you can afford the trip, you can afford to lose the money.
Well, yes, but...
I can assure you that it was VERY comforting for us to frequently mention: "At least we'll get the money back, so when we are able, we won't have to pay a second time for this trip....!"

All of those trips we had been dreaming about, planning vaguely, "... and someday, we'll also go to <place>! , maybe after we go to <other place> !! " ... ?

Ever since his recovery, we've been having a complete ball, GOING TO those places.
We certainly don't want or need more "stuff". (Downsizing will be a mini-nightmare as it is!)
But to visit certain places, have certain experiences... those kept being put off til "later"...

There are now a couple of places we now cannot go, due to his or my health constraints, so we are extra sorry that we "waited too long".
But we are having the time of our lives!
Thank goodness it wasn't actually "too late".

YOLO doesn't need to mean squandering money, not at all.
But it can mean (and absolutely does for us) "don't keep waiting...", whether it be to have "the full amount planned" or whatever other "goal".
IF it means we *might* have a smaller retirement apartment, or take fewer short trips when we are older? So be it.
We might not even be able to take any trips at all, "then...", after all...
But we'll have these memories and photos. :happy :happy

But chances are that we'll be very comfortable, spending what we can (and want to), and probably have some left over for a few special others, and some favored non-profits.

RM
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by JBTX » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:08 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:37 pm
delamer wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:31 pm
Your post seems pretty glib about the prospect of running out of money.
That was certainly not my intent. But many Bogleheads have made a point that actually exhausting a sizable portfolio during retirement is something so rare as to not be a very realistic possibility for those reading this forum.

It could be said that many are 'glib' about the prospect of people working many additional years doing something they don't truly enjoy for an extra margin of safety on top of other margins of safety that they already have.

There are two ditches on both sides of the road. Running out of money is indeed serious, but as I already noted, I've seen a family disintegrate due to a large inheritance. I think that many would agree that both outcomes are unacceptable.
If one was really concerned that their unspent fortune would tear up their family, then just donate it to charity, and let them know in advance that is what you are going to do. I guess I feel like to the extent such issues cause family disintegration then the failure took place long before your death.

I can’t really understand regret for not spending more money. As I posted elsewhere we spend too much, but that is as much a lifestyle habit. Assuming we are able to make due with less, I really don’t anticipate regretting that frugality, especially if I’m in my 80s. Boy do I wish I ate out more! I regret not having that $75k luxury suv! We could have easily afforded another 2000 sq feet in our house! Those are all thoughts I cannot imagine having. As of right now, I can’t recall anytime where in my past I wished I spent more money.

The one exception might be regretting not having the opportunity to travel more. But I think that is often due to timing and logistics of life and not as much money.

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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by zaboomafoozarg » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:08 pm

azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:42 pm
Well, I guess if that were really important to you or someone else, I'd probably ensure that it happened before I died rather than hoping everything falls into place when I'm not around to make sure that it does. But I guess if that's ironed out well enough, such as in a trust, you could do it afterwards. But again, personality wise, if I were so inclined, I'd rather see it happen in my lifetime so I could enjoy it too.
Oh yeah, I'd probably try to do it in my 70's or 80's if I make it that long.

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Re: "PRIORITIES" - Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:10 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:02 pm
This seems like an appropriate place for a reminder about a thread that was important to many:
Impecabbly said. Thank you very much for sharing your personal experiences. I wish you and your DH the very best for many years to come. :sharebeer
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

JBTX
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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by JBTX » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:11 pm

moghopper wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:54 pm
bigred77 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:38 pm
Dying with too much money is a symptom of a problem I do perceive on Bogleheads and that’s the pursuit of absolute economic certainty regardless of cost.
YES! This exactly. So many on this thread have responded along the lines of "I could never have too much money..."

But that misses the point. It isn't the money. The money is the symptom of missed opportunity cost.

Unfortunately, most will only see this too late.
This presumes they would have had a better life if they spent more or worked less.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by darrvao777 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:19 pm

1. I like what I do and find meaning in what I do (for now). It would be an honor to work until 70 (I reserve the right to change my mind on this :) )

2. Not a problem, spending increases each year. We are definitely loosening the pursestrings.

3. Not a problem, I am very generous with my family and my wife's family. I'm not really looking to share with anyone else.

4. This can change at any time. But at the current limits, I will not have a problem with these taxes.

5. I plan to spend a lot. I plan to leave the remainder to my kids. What they do with the remainder is up to them.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:24 pm

randomizer wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:39 pm
I am nowhere near having that fear, nor do I fear ever developing the fear. :D
There's also the opposite to consider.

Fear of being in poverty, debt, and want. Homeless, jobless, and dead broke. Worse if without hope or faith. That insecurity drives many a billionaire where no amount of wealth will quell those fears or sleepless nights.

Those born into poverty know it. Those growing up with little and all the while witnessing those that have all their needs answered also feel it. For these folks, there is never a fear of dying with too much money. Perhaps, only a fear of dying alone.

Again, there's the other fear. . . of dying without ever feeling that what one has is enough.
j
Last edited by Sandtrap on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by azanon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:24 pm

Also, don't forget methods like Variable Percentage Withdrawal are actually very conservative by non-boglehead, average American Joe standards. Even if you don't change age at all, you simply will not and cannot run out of money until age 100. Also, the method encourages that you have a floor established that has perpetual money, like social security, pensions if applicable, and annuities if necessary.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by azanon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:27 pm

A lot of people's problem (I know a few) is simply they can't move past the, money is a scorecard mentality. Heaven forbid some people actually spend into principle or even not grow their money while they're still breathing. I don't know who they're competing against though.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:36 pm

azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:27 pm
A lot of people's problem (I know a few) is simply they can't move past the, money is a scorecard mentality. Heaven forbid some people actually spend into principle or even not grow their money while they're still breathing. I don't know who they're competing against though.
I have a family member who very much believes this. He is well into the deca-millionaire category, and, by the numbers, only has another 15 years left in him, but all he can think about is getting more, to the exclusion of almost everything else in life.

"He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves abundance with its income. This too is vanity."
-Ecclesiastes 5:10 NASB
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by azanon » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:44 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:36 pm
azanon wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:27 pm
A lot of people's problem (I know a few) is simply they can't move past the, money is a scorecard mentality. Heaven forbid some people actually spend into principle or even not grow their money while they're still breathing. I don't know who they're competing against though.
I have a family member who very much believes this. He is well into the deca-millionaire category, and, by the numbers, only has another 15 years left in him, but all he can think about is getting more, to the exclusion of almost everything else in life.

"He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves abundance with its income. This too is vanity."
-Ecclesiastes 5:10 NASB
Now I have an obsession too, but it's not money; It's time - and freedom to do exactly what I want 24/7 ASAP for the rest of my natural life. I only focus on money to the extent that I do to get me that thing that I really want; Time and all of it for myself.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by randomguy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:03 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:42 pm
randomizer wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:39 pm
I am nowhere near having that fear, nor do I fear ever developing the fear. :D
Good for you.

Personally, if my portfolio tripled over the course of the first 20 years of retirement, I believe that fear would become very real for me.
It is unavoidable not working too long. The odds of retiring into the bottom 5% of returns is low but you have to plan for it.

But as far as having too much money after 10-20 years? That's any easy to solve problem. There are an infinite number of ways to lower your portfolio value.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by willthrill81 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:12 am

randomguy wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:03 am
It is unavoidable not working too long. The odds of retiring into the bottom 5% of returns is low but you have to plan for it.
Why must I plan to attempt to eliminate the historic likelihood of a 1/20 event occurring? The odds are far higher that I'll not live long enough for that 5% to even show up if I otherwise would.

As Kitces has said, "failure in retirement" does not mean "run out of money" as much as it means "reduce your retirement income."

Considering that our necessary expenses could be easily met with a 30% reduction in our anticipated SS payouts, I feel no need to worry about a 5% or even 10% "chance of failure."
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:41 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:10 pm
My point was that a life of truly unnecessary deprivation due to FOROOM doesn't appeal to me, and there are many others for whom this holds no appeal either. If someone does want to go that route, then by all means they have every right to do so and ignore what anyone else thinks.
Who says it's deprivation, unnecessary or otherwise? Someone with paid off house and vehicle can live pretty well on that level of spending if their desires are simple.

Tonight I went to the hockey game with a buddy, we had some beer and snacks there and a pizza after. Probably a couple hundred bucks each. Tomorrow I will probably hang around the house, watch a bit of football, read, make some stir-fry for dinner. Probably less than $20.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by 2comma » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:54 am

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:03 pm
I do not fear the prospect of being dead, any more than I am traumatized by memories of the time during which I was not yet born.

The dying process bothers me in certain ways. I've tried to mitigate them but I may not have sufficient control for my steps to make a material difference.

Should I come through the process and be dead with an estate of whatever size somebody or other perceives as too much, I will not feel really, really bad inside.

PJW
That's my fear and my thought. Well said!
If I am stupid I will pay.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by willthrill81 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:03 am

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:41 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:10 pm
My point was that a life of truly unnecessary deprivation due to FOROOM doesn't appeal to me, and there are many others for whom this holds no appeal either. If someone does want to go that route, then by all means they have every right to do so and ignore what anyone else thinks.
Who says it's deprivation, unnecessary or otherwise?
That's a personal assessment that everyone has to make for themselves.

My point is that retirees can and sometimes do live truly deprived lifestyles. You don't, and that's great. But the 'poverty mindset', even when they have ample resources, is absolutely present among many retirees.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by msk » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:35 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:11 pm
I've been blessed with more than enough.
So I invest for the security of an educational "legacy" trust for my heirs . . . and the heirs of my heirs.. . and their heirs :shock: .
j :D
If you do not mind, how did you set this up? I am very tempted to do something similar but ran into a hurdle. My desire was to fund the education of any of my offspring (and their offspring) at a certain college where all our family got our education (myself, 4 kids, spouse and a son-in-law). It's a competitive college and quite difficult to get admission into, but not as difficult as Harvard or Stanford. I offered a substantial endowment to the college, to use for bursaries for undergraduates of their choosing, but to assign automatically a bursary to one of my offspring if and when one gains admission there. Objection from college was how to verify offspring? I suggested DNA testing. College found that too cumbersome. Interestingly, I found out that Merton College, Oxford was founded along similar lines back in the 13th Century. All Mertons would get in for free, any leftover places went to the public. In these days of sexual equality I find it inappropriate to use my surname, hence DNA. So, how is your trust/endowment set up?

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by anoop » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:05 am

Nothing wrong with dying with too much money. We came with nothing, and money is just there to help us enjoy. If we get attached to it (or what should happen to it after we die) then we will be unhappy. I'm completely over that. And I'm single and it is very likely I will die single.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by gotester2000 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:59 am

I dont care if I leave too much or too little money behind - everything is a resource - use and throw it to live without regrets - planning too much ruins life.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by johnz1001 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:45 am

I think that if someone had no or little fear of dying they could most certainly get over a fear of dying with too much money. The former is hard imo, the latter is nothing relative to that. I actually a focus on the latter could be a way of not confronting the deeper fear. I know, too much psychology, but this is what I think.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by Call_Me_Op » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:49 am

Honestly, I don;t worry at all about that fear. The alternative is to try to spend-down to zero at the end of your life - which is a strategy fraught with peril.
Best regards, -Op | | "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by samsoes » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:00 am

itstoomuch wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:08 pm
#5 is our issue. However, The Only is making 1031 arrangements to where we may have to take a 30yr/5% mortgage, Seattle, and he will take the step-up on our passing :annoyed The risk-reward ratio appears to pencil out but somehow it doesn't feel right.
At this time, kinda glad that DS isn't hooked up. :confused
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. Can you elaborate:
The Only
1031 arrangements
pencil out
hooked up
:confused
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by HueyLD » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:09 am

I have no fear of dying with any money.

What’s wrong with sharing your money with the less fortunate? You can’t take it with you unless you want to bury your 3.5% paper I bonds with you.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by Jags4186 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:27 am

I have no fear, in fact I expect to die with "too much money". If you save 25x your expenses and follow the 4% rule you do so in order to prevent the slim possibility of running out of money. More likely than not that money will grow at a faster rate than you'll spend it. It's just the nature of the beast. The downside of not having enough money so far outweighs the "risk" of not spending what you could have.

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Re: Fear of dying with too much money?

Post by samsoes » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:33 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:54 pm

While not as severe as running out of money before running out of life, I don't how I would classify someone with a $1.5 million portfolio scraping by on $30k a year in retirement for FOROOM. That doesn't smell like success to me.
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:05 pm
willthrill81,

Why should that person care about your opinion? In fact, the definition of success is to be able to live your life according to your own opinion and value system. Anyone that care too much about other's opinion is a failure regardless of how much money that they have.

KlangFool
willthrill81's example struck a cord with me, as my ad nauseam projections and analysis are in-line almost exactly with the numbers presented in the example.

Very insightful, willthrill81. Thank you, I appreciate it. It's very rich food for thought, and I may loosen up a bit with my projected spending.
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)

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