Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

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Ditchwitch
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Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by Ditchwitch » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:56 pm

Makes for a good read, also may help keep the bubble investors "first" impulses in check.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/maga ... ubble.html

There's a lot of good behind Bitcoin and other cryptos that will remain once the dust has settled but it maybe something completely different from what folks are speculating on....of course if you want to ride within the eye of the comet be prepared to get burned. :sharebeer

Not sure where there last few weeks of BTC gyrations will lead to the next few months but certainly some investors who bought in near the peak are clutching there heart meds...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... volatility
“Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.” | ― Albert Einstein

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by linenfort » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:32 pm

Fascinating! Better than I thought it would be.
Is it too early for an all-bond-portfolio thread?

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NY Times - Beyond the Bitcoin Bubble by Steven Johnson

Post by mws13 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:55 pm

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

Weekend reading as it is a long and complicated read. That said, it is by far the best summary that I have seen of the Blockchain and Crypto World:

"Yes, it’s driven by greed — but the mania for cryptocurrency could wind up building something much more important than wealth."

Beyond the Bitcoin Bubble

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/maga ... ctionfront

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by hilink73 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:07 pm

Ditchwitch wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:56 pm
Makes for a good read, also may help keep the bubble investors "first" impulses in check.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/maga ... ubble.html

There's a lot of good behind Bitcoin and other cryptos that will remain once the dust has settled but it maybe something completely different from what folks are speculating on....of course if you want to ride within the eye of the comet be prepared to get burned. :sharebeer

Not sure where there last few weeks of BTC gyrations will lead to the next few months but certainly some investors who bought in near the peak are clutching there heart meds...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... volatility
Yes, I've posted this as well.
Great article.

Interesting observation I think is, that the Bitcoin bashing goes onand on, but nobody does comment on well written, well though out articles.
Maybeit's easier for the Bitcoin bashers to continue bashing instead of learning about new tech. Sad, but understandable from a human point of view.

My take is still that we are only at the beginning of a new technology.
Sure, there will be ups and downs, but I like to risk a few grand on the very far edge of technology. The rest is safe in my buy and hold portfolio.

:beer

To add: even if you throw in some hints at other technologies than Bitcoin, nobody really asks what those other technologies could bring as a benefit or investment wise. It's always: "Bitcoin, bitcoin, bitcoin", "has no value", "bubble".

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Re: NY Times - Beyond the Bitcoin Bubble by Steven Johnson

Post by telemark » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:01 pm

We always view new technologies as improved substitutes for older, more familiar technologies. The automobile was a horseless carriage, email is quicker and cheaper than regular mail, Windows (tm) models a computer as a desktop with folders full of files, cell phones were telephones that you could carry in your pocket, Bitcoin is digital cash or maybe digital gold. Eventually people find new, more interesting possibilities that could not have been done with the older technologies (imagine the interstate highway system using only horse-drawn transportation). But our record of predicting these new uses in advance is pretty terrible. Arthur C. Clarke predicted geosynchronous communication satellites, but he also predicted vast fleets of hovercraft carrying freight across the oceans, and he completely missed GPS. Heinlein opened one of his novels with a guy on horseback answering his phone, but he didn't predict Facebook or Google Maps. It's quite possible that in the next few decades, some version of blockchain will have changed the world in some fundamental way. It seems equally unlikely that this use will look like anything we expect now, or that it will convey any value to earlier versions like Bitcoin.

And sometimes a revolutionary new invention comes along and somehow fails to revolutionize anything much. Anyone remember rolamite?

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by Ditchwitch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:44 pm

Yeah, it seems obvious that coins will be a separate asset class that banks will allow trading in probably within the next 1-2 years. Since regulators want a say in things it might take some time to figure out how the coin trading gets incorporated into mainstream platforms. Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs just started allowing customers to trade in bitcoin futures and most of this is probably only by popular demand. Eventually, these coins will be traded like currencies or commodities but within much tighter bands than currently so the speculative traders will probably make room for chart traders.

I think the more interesting part of this blockchain development will be to see whether besides "middleman" free currencies we get other more societally valuable services like ride sharing built on blockchain backbones using tokens and the distributed ledger technology etc that do not require a de facto monopoly or duopolies like Uber, Lyft etc...these developments may also free consumers up again from the de facto grip of FANG companies like Apple, FB, Amazon that rose on the backs of the last internet wave.....
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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:53 pm

mws13 - I merged your thread into here, which is a similar topic.

(I had earlier moved your thread to a different one. Sorry about that, I apologize. Thanks to the member who corrected me.)
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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by telemark » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:49 pm

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that someone finds a way to use blockchain to revolutionize the internet as we know it (and personally I think that would be a fine idea), why would that method rely on Bitcoin or any other existing token? It's easy to create a new token, preferably one without the high transaction costs and limited supply of Bitcoin.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by Ditchwitch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:34 pm

telemark wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:49 pm
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that someone finds a way to use blockchain to revolutionize the internet as we know it (and personally I think that would be a fine idea), why would that method rely on Bitcoin or any other existing token? It's easy to create a new token, preferably one without the high transaction costs and limited supply of Bitcoin.
I think this is really the transformative "evolutionary" power of blockchain...it's really an enabling technology...we are currently just too consumed by headlines, BTC and the bubble these days but as the article points out (and you nicely reinforced) there will be endless creations or variations that meander far from currencies and coin exchanges...

The reason this still is important for investors is that there's some opportunities to invest in...maybe Bitcoin, Ethereum et al. for now but probably also a lot more enabling technologies to follow the next few years now that companies and individuals and crowds are starting to pile their investments and labor into expanding the use of blockchain technologies....
“Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.” | ― Albert Einstein

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by golfCaddy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:45 pm

The author misreads the history of GPS. The government didn't end selective availability until 2000. Given the billions that a GPS constellation costs, there's zero chance any private company would have created their own GPS constellation or any GeoBook would have emerged. The author doesn't seem technically informed.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by Nate79 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:05 pm

Gartner hype cycle...... New technologies come and go. Which ones will find actual societal use and which ones will be a footnote in history will only be known after the fact. Calling blockchain "revolutionary" is laughable. There are many counter opinions out there of those in the industry who have stated it is interesting, somewhat useful, and might have some applications. But whether or not it will be the next internet or the next automobile is hilarious. Unfortunately, that these coins are being openly traded thus seeming to allow all humans on earth who want to get in on the game to become millionaires has clouded the technology discussion.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by telemark » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:54 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:05 pm
Gartner hype cycle...... New technologies come and go. Which ones will find actual societal use and which ones will be a footnote in history will only be known after the fact. Calling blockchain "revolutionary" is laughable. There are many counter opinions out there of those in the industry who have stated it is interesting, somewhat useful, and might have some applications. But whether or not it will be the next internet or the next automobile is hilarious. Unfortunately, that these coins are being openly traded thus seeming to allow all humans on earth who want to get in on the game to become millionaires has clouded the technology discussion.
http://archive.fortune.com/2007/01/22/m ... /index.htm

But if IBM is backing it, it must be the real thing. :wink:

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by Ditchwitch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:08 pm

telemark wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:54 pm
Nate79 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:05 pm
Gartner hype cycle...... New technologies come and go. Which ones will find actual societal use and which ones will be a footnote in history will only be known after the fact. Calling blockchain "revolutionary" is laughable. There are many counter opinions out there of those in the industry who have stated it is interesting, somewhat useful, and might have some applications. But whether or not it will be the next internet or the next automobile is hilarious. Unfortunately, that these coins are being openly traded thus seeming to allow all humans on earth who want to get in on the game to become millionaires has clouded the technology discussion.
http://archive.fortune.com/2007/01/22/m ... /index.htm

But if IBM is backing it, it must be the real thing. :wink:
I saw the same about IBM investing in blockchain technology in an interview on CNBC today....the finance industry will follow soon too, e.g. UBS made a similar announcement a few days ago. However each of these companies aims to create closed circuits where customers can operate in a "trusted environment". The more interesting applications for the public might be where new blockchain apps are created that everyone can compete and contribute towards using the token credit system.
“Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.” | ― Albert Einstein

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by mws13 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:55 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:05 pm
Gartner hype cycle...... Unfortunately, that these coins are being openly traded thus seeming to allow all humans on earth who want to get in on the game to become millionaires has clouded the technology discussion.
Gartner was very late to the Blockchain cycle, and I doubt many Blockchain Developers care about Gartner which is/was the Mother Ship of "consulting" on "Centralized Systems":

https://www.gartner.com/doc/3628617?srcId=1-6595640685

In addition, the only way to get bitcoin is to 1) Mine it 2) Buy it 3) Earn and get paid in it 4) Steal it from a wallet or platform that is "off the Bitcoin" protocol. At the very least, you need a computer and internet access. Today, that seems to be 51% of the world population:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage

I get it, you are a believer in Centralized Systems, and so am I. The US Military has the most obvious need for a standard, centralized system that protects us here at home, it protects shipping lanes for our goods, and it arguably stops terrorism before it starts. The Military also gets paid in USD so I don't in my lifetime see ANY currency replacing the USD. However, the Military is very smart, and they know they have to stay ahead of this, so they are involved on many levels - http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/10 ... lp/141500/

Steven Johnson did an amazing job of outlining the issues pro and con. Sure, some technical people have some nitpicks above with the GPS reference, but that was an amazing piece of journalism, in my opinion. I have been in Crypto Assets for 5 years, and nothing comes close to this piece.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by hilink73 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:07 pm

telemark wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:49 pm
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that someone finds a way to use blockchain to revolutionize the internet as we know it (and personally I think that would be a fine idea), why would that method rely on Bitcoin or any other existing token? It's easy to create a new token, preferably one without the high transaction costs and limited supply of Bitcoin.
Well, one approach, Ethereum, with already hundreds of developers, has been mentioned in the article.
Let's see how that goes.

And no, it's not just a "coin". :beer

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by hilink73 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:11 pm

golfCaddy wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:45 pm
The author misreads the history of GPS. The government didn't end selective availability until 2000. Given the billions that a GPS constellation costs, there's zero chance any private company would have created their own GPS constellation or any GeoBook would have emerged. The author doesn't seem technically informed.
Well, a single company build Iridium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_Communications) with around 66 satellites or something.
So, that's not too far off from building a GPS.

Given, there were a few hickups. 8-)

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by telemark » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:35 pm

Ditchwitch wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:08 pm
telemark wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:54 pm
http://archive.fortune.com/2007/01/22/m ... /index.htm

But if IBM is backing it, it must be the real thing. :wink:
I saw the same about IBM investing in blockchain technology in an interview on CNBC today....the finance industry will follow soon too, e.g. UBS made a similar announcement a few days ago. However each of these companies aims to create closed circuits where customers can operate in a "trusted environment". The more interesting applications for the public might be where new blockchain apps are created that everyone can compete and contribute towards using the token credit system.
Um, that link is from 2007 and it's not about blockchain. Same IBM though.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by Ragnoth » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:00 pm

Blockchain has always been an interesting bit of technology, and some companies may find interesting ways of using it to produce value. I don’t think that’s the case for the vast majority of ICO’s and the newly founded companies being bandied about... but it doesn’t mean it can’t happen.

It will be interesting to see how things develop. Personally, I think the best use would be some kind of “proof of work” tied to a meaningful contribution (e.g., allowing processing power to be used for folding-at-home, or renting out your graphics card to a processing farm)... But in the meantime, we have to deal with people speculating in Bitcoin, or conflating purhases of Bitcoin with bets on Blockchain in general.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by hilink73 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:26 pm

telemark wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:35 pm
Ditchwitch wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:08 pm
telemark wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:54 pm
http://archive.fortune.com/2007/01/22/m ... /index.htm

But if IBM is backing it, it must be the real thing. :wink:
I saw the same about IBM investing in blockchain technology in an interview on CNBC today....the finance industry will follow soon too, e.g. UBS made a similar announcement a few days ago. However each of these companies aims to create closed circuits where customers can operate in a "trusted environment". The more interesting applications for the public might be where new blockchain apps are created that everyone can compete and contribute towards using the token credit system.
Um, that link is from 2007 and it's not about blockchain. Same IBM though.
No, it isn't.
That's the joke. Second life! Got it? :D :D :D

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by golfCaddy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:48 pm

hilink73 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:11 pm

Well, a single company build Iridium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_Communications) with around 66 satellites or something.
So, that's not too far off from building a GPS.

Given, there were a few hickups. 8-)
Few hickups is an understatement. The company almost immediately went bankrupt after the system became operational, and the entire constellation came very close to being de-orbited.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by columbia » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:15 pm

hilink73 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:07 pm
Ditchwitch wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:56 pm
Makes for a good read, also may help keep the bubble investors "first" impulses in check.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/maga ... ubble.html

There's a lot of good behind Bitcoin and other cryptos that will remain once the dust has settled but it maybe something completely different from what folks are speculating on....of course if you want to ride within the eye of the comet be prepared to get burned. :sharebeer

Not sure where there last few weeks of BTC gyrations will lead to the next few months but certainly some investors who bought in near the peak are clutching there heart meds...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... volatility
Yes, I've posted this as well.
Great article.

Interesting observation I think is, that the Bitcoin bashing goes onand on, but nobody does comment on well written, well though out articles.
Maybeit's easier for the Bitcoin bashers to continue bashing instead of learning about new tech. Sad, but understandable from a human point of view.

My take is still that we are only at the beginning of a new technology.
Sure, there will be ups and downs, but I like to risk a few grand on the very far edge of technology. The rest is safe in my buy and hold portfolio.

:beer

To add: even if you throw in some hints at other technologies than Bitcoin, nobody really asks what those other technologies could bring as a benefit or investment wise. It's always: "Bitcoin, bitcoin, bitcoin", "has no value", "bubble".

I think blockchain is an interesting and promising technology.

That said, you clearly have an agenda to push Bitcoin. This is a forum dedicated to investing in real assets, so the griping serves little purpose.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by hilink73 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:29 am

columbia wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:15 pm


I think blockchain is an interesting and promising technology.

That said, you clearly have an agenda to push Bitcoin.

As I've mentioned here several times, my Bitcoin holdings are not more than 1% of my portfolio. (My investments in other digital assets are much larger, though.)
I've also asked why people are only bashing Bitcoin but not asking questions about other technologies I've mentioned a few times here (e. g. Ethereum).
So honestly, how do you come to the conclusion I want to push Bitcoin?
That's exactly the opposite I'm trying to show you. :(

So, no.
No Bitocin agenda.
Just trying to understand the Bitcoin bashing here.
Why are people crying "sell, sell!" when Lauretta (in the other thread) is talking about only 0.2-0.3% of her assets?
That is fun.
An experiment.
Learning something about a new technology.
Learning something about yourself (for example about your emotions in the next 50% drop :shock: )
Are you looking at life only through BH glasses?
Life should be fun.
You are allowed to make mistakes and learn from it.
You are allowed to take a risk and suffer.
You are allowed to take a risk and prosper.
This is a forum dedicated to investing in real assets, so the griping serves little purpose.
What is "unreal" about digital assets? Please elaborate.
Do you classify the work of hundreds of developers currently working in this space (not neccessarily Bitcoin) as unreal?

Also, this article wasn't about Bitcoin in particular at all.
It was about the future of a new technology.
And I think you can talk about what a new technology can bring as an investment (which is why we are on this board. Right?) and for society.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by in_reality » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am

hilink73 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:29 am
Also, this article wasn't about Bitcoin in particular at all.
It was about the future of a new technology.
And I think you can talk about what a new technology can bring as an investment (which is why we are on this board. Right?) and for society.
In the future when technology can re-write DNA to eliminate disease, mental illness and ease the difficulties of things like autism (which I do not believe go in the previous two categories), some will rush to embrace it. Some will be hesitant.

Similarly there are those who think than an uncontrolled means to exchange value is beneficial to society. Then there are those who think that gangs, terrorists, criminals, hackers and repressive regimes should be controlled.

Hopefully we can use blockchain for good. Hopefully we can agree what that is. In the meantime, I remain wary of what impact digital currencies will in an unregulated state.

Technologically, it doesn't have the same capacity as a payment system that say Visa does. As a store of value, as others have mentioned it seems suspect.

In the end, is bitcoin at it's worse more of threat than quantum computing? Quantum computing is definitely a potential threat to bitcoin and maybe to every computerized system we have.

So what will stop malicious actors from mis-using DNA, block-chain, Quantum computing, nuclear and/or biological technology? I don't know but it's doubtful that malicious actors will cease to exist.

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by hilink73 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:42 am

in_reality wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am
hilink73 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:29 am
Also, this article wasn't about Bitcoin in particular at all.
It was about the future of a new technology.
And I think you can talk about what a new technology can bring as an investment (which is why we are on this board. Right?) and for society.
In the future when technology can re-write DNA to eliminate disease, mental illness and ease the difficulties of things like autism (which I do not believe go in the previous two categories), some will rush to embrace it. Some will be hesitant.
Yes, absolutely.
It's not wrong to carefully examine the possibilities of new technologies.
But on this board, some of the members seem to get raised blood pressure if Bitcoin is even mentioned. And this is the other (extreme) side of the coin.

Also, closing your eyes on new technologies could make miss you out in the future (not only money wise) but adaption to the changes in (daily) life.
in_reality wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am
Similarly there are those who think than an uncontrolled means to exchange value is beneficial to society. Then there are those who think that gangs, terrorists, criminals, hackers and repressive regimes should be controlled.
I don't think that the developers of such technologies want to use it for criminal activities.
But sure, there will be instances, for sure.
For that, we have laws and regulations.
in_reality wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am
Hopefully we can use blockchain for good. Hopefully we can agree what that is.
Blockchain is a tool. It's on each and everybody how this is going to be used.
Many tools can be used to harm.
in_reality wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am
In the meantime, I remain wary of what impact digital currencies will in an unregulated state.
Yes, regulation will be necessary and is in the works.
Maybe we should not speak about "digital currencies". None of the projects I listed above (except DAI) as meant to be a "currency".
in_reality wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am
Technologically, it doesn't have the same capacity as a payment system that say Visa does. As a store of value, as others have mentioned it seems suspect.
Well, there are being systems developed on the blockchain which will compete with it.
Though Bitcoin will not be one of them now (obviously).
in_reality wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am
In the end, is bitcoin at it's worse more of threat than quantum computing? Quantum computing is definitely a potential threat to bitcoin and maybe to every computerized system we have.
What should Bitcoin be a thread to?
(Maybe I just do not understand this sentence.)
in_reality wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am
So what will stop malicious actors from mis-using DNA, block-chain, Quantum computing, nuclear and/or biological technology? I don't know but it's doubtful that malicious actors will cease to exist.
Since beginning of mankind people hurt other people.
We have laws to go after them. Some of those laws work. Some of them not as intended.
But it seems that laws won't stop everybody from behaving badly.

On the other hand, many absolutely legal activities like the collection of personal data (especially in the US, which is not as regulated as Europe on this matter) can lead us into a distopian future. And: most people do not even care.
Sorry, mods, this went offtopic. 8-)


So, if anybody wants to discuss business models, projects mentioned above we're back to investing, right?

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Re: Nice write up in the NY Times about the transformative powers of blockchain on societal interactions

Post by in_reality » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:10 am

hilink73 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:42 am
in_reality wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:23 am
In the end, is bitcoin at it's worse more of threat than quantum computing? Quantum computing is definitely a potential threat to bitcoin and maybe to every computerized system we have.
What should Bitcoin be a thread to?
(Maybe I just do not understand this sentence.)

So, if anybody wants to discuss business models, projects mentioned above we're back to investing, right?
Well bitcoin obviously is a threat to anything that requires the absence of illicit transactions. So bribery, extortion, evading sanctions, and perhaps enforcement of various tax and drug laws for instance. And it seems to be increasingly seen as an avenue by which people might get swindled.

As such, when looking at bitcoin as an investment, one must wonder whether it's value is really what the proponents claim. I am not sure that the vision as seen by the advocates is realistic in today's world.

And then throw in the possibility for unlimited alternatives.

I'm not against blockchain technology and recognize that all technology can be misused. That said, I don't think bitcoin investors can effectively price in the possibility that what's been sold (freedom) is actually a possibility given that the (mis) use of bitcoins will infringe other's rights and the some action will be taken.

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