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Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:23 pm
by LateStarter1975
Dave Ramsey says he is conducting the largest millionaire study in the country (he wants to get about 10,000 respondents) and intends to publish the results in the next few weeks or months. I wish I could participate, but I'm still not close to the 2 comma club. Here's my other wish: That a lot of Boglehead millionaires will participate and indicate that majority of their investments are in Index funds and that they don't use a financial adviser. Maybe that will influence Dave on his condescending thoughts about Index funds......I can only hope!

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:26 pm
by MN-Investor
Link?

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:27 pm
by sambb
there was a fantastic net worth study here done yearly. dont know what happened, but now it is just a net worth thread. the survey here was great!

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:38 pm
by deltaneutral83
LateStarter1975 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:23 pm
Here's my other wish: That a lot of Boglehead millionaires will participate and indicate that majority of their investments are in Index funds and that they don't use a financial adviser. Maybe that will influence Dave on his condescending thoughts about Index funds......I can only hope!
90% of our country has very little business managing their own investments, I'd be fine with his investment (read: American Funds) recs for the masses if they didn't have loads. Dave's blanket approach is good for the overwhelming majority of the populace, not for me though especially on credit cards. Dave also uses index funds in his taxable accounts, namely S&P index. I will however be amused if one of the two comma BH's calls in and tells Dave they are calling from first class on Air Emirates First Class that they were comped through airline miles from their credit card. I mean, we'd all laugh at that.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:49 pm
by venkman
LateStarter1975 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:23 pm
Here's my other wish: That a lot of Boglehead millionaires will participate and indicate that majority of their investments are in Index funds and that they don't use a financial adviser. Maybe that will influence Dave on his condescending thoughts about Index funds......I can only hope!
It would be a lot harder for Dave to get kickbacks from endorsing financial advisors if he starts telling people they don't need a financial advisor. 8-)

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:12 pm
by arcticpineapplecorp.
LateStarter1975 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:23 pm
Dave Ramsey says he is conducting the largest millionaire study in the country (he wants to get about 10,000 respondents) and intends to publish the results in the next few weeks or months.
I bet he does. Every one who sells expensive mutual funds with loads would love to get 10,000 new customers. :moneybag

I'm very sure there's nothing self-serving about his motivations to contact 10,000 millionaires.

Why would you want to be part of a study by someone who makes it his business to solicit, advertize and sell high cost products to?

At least when Thomas Stanley (The Millionaire Next Door) did his study, he paid people to do the interviews and he wasn't selling anything to them. That can not be true for Dave. There are too many conflicts of interest here.

edit:
I looked on google and didn't see any mention of any survey he's trying to do. Did he mention this on his radio show because I see it nowhere in print/online.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:03 am
by FrugalInvestor
Dave Ramsey isn't going to change his tune because he makes money by giving his endorsement to the advisers you want him to disavow. See this page and specifically the references to 'ELPs'....

https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/millionaire-secrets

Quote from page....
For more details and to find high-return mutual funds, talk to one of our investing Endorsed Local Providers (ELPs). Our ELPs are professionals who think like Dave when it comes to investing and have promised to take care of his fans.
I'm afraid your hope is misplaced.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:18 am
by Nate79
He talks about this millionaire survey all the time on the show but I can't find a link to it.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:45 am
by Slacker
I found an apparent link to this survey.

if you go to www.daveramsey.com/survey it automatically redirects you to www.research.net and a specific survey form that states "Our organization is studying financial indepedence in America. To see if you qualify for the study, please answer the next few questions"

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:55 am
by GuyInFL
It's an anonymous survey. Or at least contact info is optional.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:41 am
by stormswami
Thanks for sharing the survey link. I participated and appropriately reflected Boglehead principles including a couple mentions of index funds when and where I could.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:54 am
by gmtret
P. T. Barnum smiles gleefully from the grave...

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:35 am
by JoMoney
gmtret wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:54 am
P. T. Barnum smiles gleefully from the grave...
Good Boglehead'ish book: The Art of Money Getting; Or, Golden Rules for Making Money by P. T. Barnum
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8581/8581-h/8581-h.htm

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
by chipperd
stormswami wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:41 am
Thanks for sharing the survey link. I participated and appropriately reflected Boglehead principles including a couple mentions of index funds when and where I could.
+1

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:28 am
by Longdog
GuyInFL wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:55 am
It's an anonymous survey. Or at least contact info is optional.
It’s also non-scientific (e.g., self-selecting), but it was fun to fill out. It did seem neutral and it was anonymous, other than the ability to log your IP address if so inclined.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:35 am
by GoldenFinch
If it’s not a random sample of millionaires, it will be a survey possibly skewed toward one certain group or another. Maybe everyone who got rich after being on Antiques Roadshow will dominate and it will start a garage sale frenzy! :happy

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am
by Edward Joseph
He does a "Millionaire Hour" on his radio show on occasion. It's actually one of my favorite segments. I will say, however, that he NEVER asks what TYPE of mutual funds his caller invests in or has grown their millions in.

As a side note, I did hear him recently be upfront with a caller by saying he doesn't get a piece of any sale from an Endorsed Local Provider but he DOES get an "endorsement fee".

On a second side note, he drives me crazy when he touts how well his "good growth stock mutual funds" have done over the past 20 years without mentioning "past performance does not indicate future...blah blah blah".

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:00 am
by nisiprius
He doesn't care about the results of the survey. Surveys are just an effective way to get people involved with Ramsey.

The survey results will show whatever he want them to show because most of the people who take it will be people who are attracted to Ramsey's ideas.

In the case of widely publicized unscientific open-to-anyone surveys, it fairly common for people to launch what, for a better word, I'll call "letter-writing campaigns:" "Let's all get together and tip this survey in the opposite direction from what they want." It's wasted effort. Even if it succeeds in tipping the survey results, the person involved can usually get away with just somehow never releasing the results; if he can't do that, he can claim technical problems, or can complain (validly) that the results were unfortunately distorted by an organized campaign... or simply lie about the results. (My late mom, decades ago, once wrote to the President in opposition to something the President was doing; got a lovely personal letter on White House letter head with genuine autopen signature thanking her for her support; and shortly afterwards the President gave a speech saying that his letters were running 90% in support of his program).

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:20 am
by HoosierJim
Longdog wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:28 am
and it was anonymous, other than the ability to log your IP address if so inclined.
So it's not anonymous. Unless you fill it in at the apple store or your library,

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:29 am
by gvsucavie03
I believe our time can be spent on better things. I stopped listening to Dave around Thanksgiving (listener since '09). I just couldn't swallow his slanted beliefs and financial stubbornness to what he swears is the truth. I'm doing fine with a couple credit cards and my index funds and I thoroughly enjoy not paying 5.75% loads. He is a businessman and real estate guy at heart.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:42 am
by HoosierJim
HoosierJim wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:20 am
Longdog wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:28 am
and it was anonymous, other than the ability to log your IP address if so inclined.
So it's not anonymous. Unless you fill it in at the apple store or your library,
I can hear Dave screaming "Release the kracken (salespeople)" then telling the kracken to NOT take baby steps.

Ironically, you will be pitched an internet privacy product (that coincidentally - he and his wife also use).

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:50 am
by gvsucavie03
I'll guess 10 more posts and this thread will shut down. About as predictable as the results of his faux millionaire study.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:56 am
by staythecourse
nisiprius wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:00 am
He doesn't care about the results of the survey. Surveys are just an effective way to get people involved with Ramsey.

The survey results will show whatever he want them to show because most of the people who take it will be people who are attracted to Ramsey's ideas.
Agreed. There is NO WAY he will publish a study showing you don't need an adviser considering he sells his own spiel which uses advisers.

Good luck.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:20 am
by LTD
There seems to be a lot of negativity toward Dave Ramsey on Bogleheads. I would like to offer a different view - I acknowledge that Dave Ramsey gives poor investment advice. However, he has helped literally millions of people with their finances, including my family. If he has to run a business and make money to do that I am not going to hold that against him.

He has a millionaire theme hour on his radio show to highlight the fact, that contrary to what you may be led to believe if you are listening to a lot of today's media, it is still possible to become a millionaire in America. This I believe helps to give people the hope and drive to succeed. If they are like me they will "graduate" from Dave's investment advice and find Bogleheads eventually. But at least he has helped them get out of debt, take charge of their finances, focus on financial goals and have a sense of hope.

Maybe I should be more cynical than I am, but if it were not for Dave Ramsey I would still be bumping along in the dark when it comes to finances.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:27 am
by MoonOrb
The Dave Ramsey discussion here almost always boils down to:

His personal finance advice is or has been genuinely helpful to many people including many Bogleheads;

His investing advice is crap.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:43 am
by gvsucavie03
MoonOrb wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:27 am
The Dave Ramsey discussion here almost always boils down to:

His personal finance advice is or has been genuinely helpful to many people including many Bogleheads;

His investing advice is crap.
And a lot of us found Bogleheads because of DR.

Still, we have fantastic research already. Not sure why Dave feels it is necessary to do his own. I'm really cynical of this because of his strongly-held personal beliefs and his own refusal to believe other emperical research that runs counter to his beliefs.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:06 pm
by dbr
The vast majority of millionaires in this country are not likely Boglehead investors but non-Boglehead businessmen and heirs that have what they have. If they invest at all, they continue to be millionaires in spite of how they might invest rather than because of it. There could easily be more millionaires owning 640 acres of Iowa farmland at $6545/acre than there are Bogleheads owning four million dollars of VTSMX. You can even put three quarters of that farmland on mortgage and the equity is still a million.

The last guy I knew that had a net worth of $8M owned that in New York City properties and not in stock. The other richest guy I knew had a house worth $1M and the rest of how many millions in individual stocks because he belonged to an investment club that liked to pick stocks. Of course he could also have had a million or two in T-bills and I wouldn't know about that.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:08 pm
by jibantik
gvsucavie03 wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:43 am
I'm really cynical of this because of his strongly-held personal beliefs and his own refusal to believe other emperical research that runs counter to his beliefs.
And bully anyone who disagrees with him.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:58 pm
by DanMahowny
I completed the survey.

Did not leave my email address.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:28 pm
by arcticpineapplecorp.
DanMahowny wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:58 pm
I completed the survey.

Did not leave my email address.
that's ok. they may have your IP address anyway:

https://www.google.com/search?q=can+a+c ... fox-b-1-ab

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:37 pm
by arcticpineapplecorp.
I'm glad many some found bogleheads through Dave Ramsey, though I'm not sure how that would be except when you listened to him trash the "math nerds" who disavow his belief of easily getting 12% returns from the stock market and then decided to read more from some of the people who disagreed with him (and thereby the student surpasses the teacher, Dave Ramsey).

But I can't square the fact that:
1. Dave Ramsey says he wants to help people, but then he hurts them by putting them into expensive loaded investments.
2. If you found bogleheads it wasn't because Dave led you here. It was IN SPITE of Dave's recommendations.

So why would anyone thank Dave Ramsey for getting your here when you only have yourself to thank. Thank the fact that you critically think and the student has surpassed the teacher. I might be thankful to Dave for helping motivate me to get out of debt, but If anything I would then have to be resentful of Dave for not helping me maximize my investments once I got out of debt and for his profiting off me instead.

But as Upton Sinclair wrote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:55 pm
by munemaker
LateStarter1975 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:23 pm
Dave Ramsey says he is conducting the largest millionaire study in the country (he wants to get about 10,000 respondents) and intends to publish the results in the next few weeks or months.
So kind of like rewriting "The Millionaire Next Door."

He has not contacted me yet. I probably will not take his call when he does.

I don't really care if he changes his view on index funds.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:56 pm
by rudeboy
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:37 pm
I'm glad many some found bogleheads through Dave Ramsey, though I'm not sure how that would be except when you listened to him trash the "math nerds" who disavow his belief of easily getting 12% returns from the stock market and then decided to read more from some of the people who disagreed with him (and thereby the student surpasses the teacher, Dave Ramsey).

But I can't square the fact that:
1. Dave Ramsey says he wants to help people, but then he hurts them by putting them into expensive loaded investments.
2. If you found bogleheads it wasn't because Dave led you here. It was IN SPITE of Dave's recommendations.

So why would anyone thank Dave Ramsey for getting your here when you only have yourself to thank. Thank the fact that you critically think and the student has surpassed the teacher. I might be thankful to Dave for helping motivate me to get out of debt, but If anything I would then have to be resentful of Dave for not helping me maximize my investments once I got out of debt and for his profiting off me instead.

But as Upton Sinclair wrote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
That quote is brutal, lol. He's running an age-old hustle: groom groom groom fleece.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:00 pm
by gmtret
JoMoney wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:35 am
gmtret wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:54 am
P. T. Barnum smiles gleefully from the grave...
Good Boglehead'ish book: The Art of Money Getting; Or, Golden Rules for Making Money by P. T. Barnum
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8581/8581-h/8581-h.htm
Thank you very much for the link. I'll indeed give it a read. :D

Good luck,
Chris

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:13 pm
by yatesd
Not quite sure how bashing any finance guru is considered an acceptable "topic" discussion on Bogleheads. :oops:

Sharing the survey info, talking about the results, or its validity seems appropriate. Personally, I'd be curious to see the results even if it is self selecting (just like the one on Bogleheads).

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:28 pm
by sambb
plenty of people would do better with dave ramsey's advice (even with load funds) then they can on their own. not everyone is a BH.
I hope the survey is a good one.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:01 pm
by FrugalYankee
LTD wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:20 am
There seems to be a lot of negativity toward Dave Ramsey on Bogleheads. I would like to offer a different view - I acknowledge that Dave Ramsey gives poor investment advice. However, he has helped literally millions of people with their finances, including my family. If he has to run a business and make money to do that I am not going to hold that against him.

He has a millionaire theme hour on his radio show to highlight the fact, that contrary to what you may be led to believe if you are listening to a lot of today's media, it is still possible to become a millionaire in America. This I believe helps to give people the hope and drive to succeed. If they are like me they will "graduate" from Dave's investment advice and find Bogleheads eventually. But at least he has helped them get out of debt, take charge of their finances, focus on financial goals and have a sense of hope.

Maybe I should be more cynical than I am, but if it were not for Dave Ramsey I would still be bumping along in the dark when it comes to finances.
+1 :sharebeer

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:11 pm
by DWesterb2iz2
sambb wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:27 pm
there was a fantastic net worth study here done yearly. dont know what happened, but now it is just a net worth thread. the survey here was great!
I agree. I found that survey instructive.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:19 pm
by Dottie57
I have a co-worker who has worked himself out of debt. He is definitely a fan of DR. I did end up sending him a link to the Bogleheads forum. He sent thanks. We haven't talked money since.

DR is fine on debt reduction.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:42 pm
by harrychan
I completed the survey a while back and look forward to the results.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:52 pm
by Oversoul
gvsucavie03 wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:50 am
I'll guess 10 more posts and this thread will shut down. About as predictable as the results of his faux millionaire study.
Don't be so sure.
Ignorance and ill informed rhetoric reign supreme.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:55 pm
by Oversoul
yatesd wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:13 pm
Not quite sure how bashing any finance guru is considered an acceptable "topic" discussion on Bogleheads. :oops:

Two thumbs up. I applaud you.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:56 pm
by gvsucavie03
Oversoul wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:52 pm
gvsucavie03 wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:50 am
I'll guess 10 more posts and this thread will shut down. About as predictable as the results of his faux millionaire study.
Don't be so sure.
Ignorance and ill informed rhetoric reign supreme.
DR threads shut down pretty quick. Moving on...

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:59 pm
by Cycle
I just completed the survey. I once skimmed through one of Ramsey's books (got a copy from the library), but realized it's for people who need to learn the ABCs of finance. The bar is pretty low before one can adopt the Boglehead strategy, but I'd definitely agree it's not for everyone. I have many highly motivated peers who are happy with their advisers and the 1% fee.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:38 pm
by 4cefedgst
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:28 pm
DanMahowny wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:58 pm
I completed the survey.

Did not leave my email address.
that's ok. they may have your IP address anyway:

https://www.google.com/search?q=can+a+c ... fox-b-1-ab
And what could they possibly do with just an IP address? Nothing.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:05 am
by willthrill81
GoldenFinch wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:35 am
If it’s not a random sample of millionaires, it will be a survey possibly skewed toward one certain group or another. Maybe everyone who got rich after being on Antiques Roadshow will dominate and it will start a garage sale frenzy! :happy
It's virtually impossible to get a random sample of millionaires because there is no list of them; not even the IRS has such a list because they do not track assets, only reported income. Without a list of some sort, it is impossible to conduct a truly random sample. In fact, this is the case with nearly all human research; random samples are rarely feasible with large populations.

Stanley's samples of millionaires were skewed in favor of very wealthy millionaires and had a lot of sample bias. It was still good research but far from 'perfect'.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:08 am
by willthrill81
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:37 pm
I'm glad many some found bogleheads through Dave Ramsey, though I'm not sure how that would be except when you listened to him trash the "math nerds" who disavow his belief of easily getting 12% returns from the stock market and then decided to read more from some of the people who disagreed with him (and thereby the student surpasses the teacher, Dave Ramsey).
That he fails to acknowledge that sequence of returns risk even exists , much less his extremely dangerous '8% withdrawals in retirement' recommendation, completely discredits anything resembling 'investment' or 'retirement' advice he offers, in my view.

His advice regarding getting out of debt can be good for many people, but beyond that, it's reckless and uninformed.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:20 pm
by BolderBoy
GuyInFL wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:55 am
It's an anonymous survey. Or at least contact info is optional.
Your IP address isn't anonymous. You can be sure that they harvest that on the first login.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:41 pm
by Call_Me_Op
BolderBoy wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:20 pm
GuyInFL wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:55 am
It's an anonymous survey. Or at least contact info is optional.
Your IP address isn't anonymous. You can be sure that they harvest that on the first login.
I think they need a court order to correlate your IP address with your name. I doubt they can do that.

Re: Dave Ramsey's Millionaire Study

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:50 pm
by BolderBoy
Call_Me_Op wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:41 pm
BolderBoy wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:20 pm
GuyInFL wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:55 am
It's an anonymous survey. Or at least contact info is optional.
Your IP address isn't anonymous. You can be sure that they harvest that on the first login.
I think they need a court order to correlate your IP address with your name. I doubt they can do that.
Just MHO, but I think that is naive. A government actor may need a court order so they can use info they acquire in a court proceeding. There are other ways to link one's IP address with the person.

Trusting "the media" of which DR is part, is folly.