Buying and Spending Bitcoin

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Swelfie
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Swelfie » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:27 pm

furnace wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:36 pm
Bitcoin is a casino right now. The house is pumping up the price to suck in new players. Once they run out of players, they will cash out, which will trigger a stampede for the door. The feeding frenzy is like what happens with the Powerball Lottery. The higher the jackpot, the more casual players you pull in, and the bigger the jackpot grows.
Agreed
furnace wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:36 pm
As for cryptos displacing the USD long term, that is wishful thinking. The US government will drop a nuke on anything that will remotely threaten the USD's dominance. Moreover, the underlying blockchain tech may not be as disruptive as people believe. Blockchain is just a recording system with some cryptography overlaid on it (distributed ledger). We have databases that do that job quite well now.
The thing is, #1 there is no one to drop a nuke on. There is no central geography either real or virtual. It's Ethereal both physically and in cyberspace. #2 is we do not have databases that do this outside of crypto currency. A DB requires a trusted authority. Crypto currency does not. That's the innovation that is not available anywhere else. No government, corporation, bank or individual can fudge the numbers regardless of their military might.

Now I did not say it would replace the USD. I don't believe that is possible for a very, very long time outside of governmental collapse for other reasons. But it may become a defacto reserve in many places the USD is used for today because it has the potential to do the same job with less politically driven manipulation or being tied to a single government's economic health.

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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:50 am

One thing I am learning is that there is a different set of knowledge to buy and use bitcoin than there is for understanding the theory behind it.

A few months ago I watched the Khan Academy videos and read a bunch of stuff about bitcoin and blockchain. (See thread: What is Bitcoin? ) So I have a pretty good understanding of the underlying technology. Actually participating in it is a different story. There are all kinds of things do with Wallets and ATMs and Exchanges that are all part of the bitcoin ecosystem and infrastructure, but are have little to do with the bitcoin blockchain. In fact, you don't really need to know much of the blockchain theory to use bitcoin. But you do need to know about the parts you interact with, like Wallets, Exchanges, etc and how they work.

How Many Keys?
Example: If you studied blockchain, you know that everyone has a public key (address) and a private key. Alice had a private key that she used to sign a transaction when she sent bitcoin to Bob's address. So everyone has one address and one Private Key, right?

Well it depends on the Wallet. What I noticed was that after spending some bitcoin on coffee, the original address that received the bitcoin from the ATM showed 0. Mycelium creates a new address for every transaction! When you spend bitcoin, the input is the address that has your bitcoin. There are two outputs: one for Bob and one back to you at a brand new address. Anything left over is the miner's fee. Same thing when you receive bitcoin. Mycelium creates a brand new bitcoin address every time you receive bitcoin. Who knew that?

Mycelium calls it an HD Wallet. HD is not High-Definition, but Hierarchical Deterministic, which is the way Mycelium creates new addresses by appending a counter to the end. It's looks random to us, but it's actual deterministic.

And as far as I can tell, you never actually see your public keys. Mycelium Wallet takes care of all that and uses it to send bitcoin. [And I heard about dishonest wallet software, malware, that sends your bitcoin to the guy who wrote the Wallet software! :shock: And I am told that only the way to protect against that is to only use Wallets with open-source code and actually look at the code.]

All this really has nothing to do with blockchain per se, but has to do with Wallets and the bitcoin infrastructure.

Who sets the Miner's Fee?
Another example is how the miner's fee is set. There is no official fee schedule. The sender has to decide what fee to pay. Some wallets you can set the fee by hand. This is flexible, but can be dangerous. If too low, the transaction may sit in the Mempool for a long time (forever? does it eventually time out?). There was one story of a guy who mistakenly typed in 50 BTC for the miner's fee, which was like $300,000. :oops: As far I know, he never got it back. So mycelium makes it simple and only gives you four choices: Low Priority, Economy, Normal, Priority. It must use some algorithm to determine the right amount.

:arrow: In summary: There are different sets of knowledge:
Understanding the basics of the blockchain technology
What you need to know to use bitcoin for purchases
What you need to know to trade bitcoin on an Exchange
being a blockchain developer, etc.

These all require different knowledge and skill set.
Gott mit uns.

Valuethinker
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:36 am

grayfox wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:50 am
One thing I am learning is that there is a different set of knowledge to buy and use bitcoin than there is for understanding the theory behind it.

A few months ago I watched the Khan Academy videos and read a bunch of stuff about bitcoin and blockchain. (See thread: What is Bitcoin? ) So I have a pretty good understanding of the underlying technology. Actually participating in it is a different story. There are all kinds of things do with Wallets and ATMs and Exchanges that are all part of the bitcoin ecosystem and infrastructure, but are have little to do with the bitcoin blockchain. In fact, you don't really need to know much of the blockchain theory to use bitcoin. But you do need to know about the parts you interact with, like Wallets, Exchanges, etc and how they work.

How Many Keys?
Example: If you studied blockchain, you know that everyone has a public key (address) and a private key. Alice had a private key that she used to sign a transaction when she sent bitcoin to Bob's address. So everyone has one address and one Private Key, right?

Well it depends on the Wallet. What I noticed was that after spending some bitcoin on coffee, the original address that received the bitcoin from the ATM showed 0. Mycelium creates a new address for every transaction! When you spend bitcoin, the input is the address that has your bitcoin. There are two outputs: one for Bob and one back to you at a brand new address. Anything left over is the miner's fee. Same thing when you receive bitcoin. Mycelium creates a brand new bitcoin address every time you receive bitcoin. Who knew that?

Mycelium calls it an HD Wallet. HD is not High-Definition, but Hierarchical Deterministic, which is the way Mycelium creates new addresses by appending a counter to the end. It's looks random to us, but it's actual deterministic.

And as far as I can tell, you never actually see your public keys. Mycelium Wallet takes care of all that and uses it to send bitcoin. [And I heard about dishonest wallet software, malware, that sends your bitcoin to the guy who wrote the Wallet software! :shock: And I am told that only the way to protect against that is to only use Wallets with open-source code and actually look at the code.]

All this really has nothing to do with blockchain per se, but has to do with Wallets and the bitcoin infrastructure.

Who sets the Miner's Fee?
Another example is how the miner's fee is set. There is no official fee schedule. The sender has to decide what fee to pay. Some wallets you can set the fee by hand. This is flexible, but can be dangerous. If too low, the transaction may sit in the Mempool for a long time (forever? does it eventually time out?). There was one story of a guy who mistakenly typed in 50 BTC for the miner's fee, which was like $300,000. :oops: As far I know, he never got it back. So mycelium makes it simple and only gives you four choices: Low Priority, Economy, Normal, Priority. It must use some algorithm to determine the right amount.

:arrow: In summary: There are different sets of knowledge:
Understanding the basics of the blockchain technology
What you need to know to use bitcoin for purchases
What you need to know to trade bitcoin on an Exchange
being a blockchain developer, etc.

These all require different knowledge and skill set.
This is one of the truly great BH threads.

A BHer finds out about a new "thing" and attempts to use/ implement it.

Sorry we don't have a thumbs up and down rating system for threads. Or a "greatest hits" list. :sharebeer

Swelfie
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Swelfie » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:44 am

grayfox wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:50 am
Mycelium creates a brand new bitcoin address every time you receive bitcoin. Who knew that?
That's actually becoming pretty necessary. The large world governments have acquired large quantum computers, and in fact it's rumored that even Volkswagon now has one. A quantum computer can learn your private key by looking at your public key. So addresses in Bitcoin were changed to be a number that proves you know your private and public keys but exposes neither and is quantum resistant. However, in order to sign a transaction you must expose your public key, so from that point forward, anyone with a large enough quantum computer must be assumed to be able to now spend from that address, so coins should never be put back into it. Rather, a new address is generated and the change goes in there instead of staying in the old address.

Most other systems, like banks, are vulnerable because they have not migrated to quantum resistant crypto. However, they are smaller targets because there is a central authority. If I break into your bank and transfer a million dollars to my bank, as soon as it's noticed your and my bank will reverse that transaction and likely there is no real gain for me. In crypto currency transactions are final and there is no authority to appeal to, so the grade of encryption used is quite a bit more intense.

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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:45 am

OK, at this point I have made only two bitcoin transactions. They both cost around 5 or 6 bucks (4.94 and 4.69 EUR). One took 7 minutes and one took 7 hours. Is that enough data to draw a definitive conclusion? Probably not. At this point I should collect more data, do more transactions, calculate means and variance for cost and confirmation time. See what the statistics are. Maybe draw a scatter plot of confirmation time vs. cost.

But I'm not going to do any of that because I don't feel like spending $6 for each data point. So I will probably call it quits with my bitcoin Spending experiment.

This leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Especially concerning the wide range in confirmation times. All I can really say at this time is that it is too expensive for small or even medium-sized purchases, and that it can be fast or slow, depending on unknown factors.

I can see other areas of inquiry. I will put in a subsequent post.
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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:28 am

Other areas of inquiry:

Not Market Timing, but Mempool Timing!
One concerns the Mempool. It seems like a patient person could monitor the Mempool and carefully time his transactions/fees. One may be able to get away with as little as 5-10 satoshis/Byte. The wait might be days or weeks or months for the opportunity. Study the Mempool charts and you can see what I'm talking about.

E.g. for some reason, back on Oct 26, 2017, the Mempool was emptied out, even transactions paying only 0-5 sat/B got confirmed. What happened then? At 5 sat/B, my coffee transaction would have cost less than a penny. But I don't think many merchants would be willing to wait a month or more for your payment.

In fact, what is the down glitch at about Nov 20 22:30 ? It looks like many of the 0-5 sat/B transaction got cleared out.

Exchange Larger Amounts?
Another question: I lost 20% to fees buying 50 EUR worth of bitcoin from the ATM. Is the fee a constant percent or a constant amount? If I had exchanged 100 EUR, would I have also lost the same 20%, or would I have paid the same amount 10 EUR, only a 10% loss? If the latter, I would be better off exchanging larger sums with each transaction, like 1,000 EUR.
(I do this exact thing when making foreign ATM transaction with a fixed $5 fee--take out as much as possible each time.)

Making Bitcoin ATM Withdrawals
I used the ATM to buy bitcoin. i usually think of an ATM as a place to withdraw cash. So how about getting cash in the local currency? Most Bitcoin ATMs are 1-way: Fiat -> Crypto. But some are 2-way and can also go Crypto -> Fiat. Will I lose another 20% converting from BTC back to EUR? Since I have BTC left over, I might look into doing that.

Other Questions
Q1. It seems like it would be useful to have the ability to change the fee rate after you submit a transaction. This would be useful if your have a transaction that you bid too low and ends up just sitting there in the Mempool. Increase the fee to get it to confirm.
Is that possible with any bitcoin wallets?

This seems really important. I saw a case where a software developer was getting paid for work in bitcoin through a 3rd party payment website. It might have been BitPay. The sender must have put in a too small fee and the transaction was not getting confirmed. It seems that the Payment Website has some kind timeout where they decide that something is wrong and the transaction is likely invalid. As far as they know, there could be a bug in the wallet software making the transaction is faulty. so it will never be included in a block. The developer was alerted to contact the sender and do what? Have them resend, possibly paying twice?

The Check is in the Mempool!
Looks like there are problems getting paid because the fee is set too low. Send an invoice for $2,000. Customer sends bitcoin with fee of only 1 sat/B. Transaction never confirms. You never receive your money. Customer blames bitcoin transaction times. A new way to dodge paying your bills: "Your check is in the Mempool!" :)


Q2. Do miner's kick faulty transactions out of the Mempool? I'm thinking that a faulty transaction should never have gotten into the Mempool in the first place. Can transactions sit in the Mempool indefinitely?

Q3. Can I remove a transaction from the Mempool before it is included in a block?
Can't do any of this with Mycelium Wallet. But maybe other bitcoin wallets have this functionality.

Like I said, lots of unanswered questions.
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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:31 am

therub wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:02 pm
This is where Litecoin and other alternatives come in.

Litecoin is similar to bitcoin except its fees are low and it finds a block every 2.5 minutes. Its price has been quite stable over time compared to bitcoin (relative to crypto currency standards). If you had gone with litecoin instead of bitcoin, I dare say your experience would have been quite a bit more pleasant.

The other one I'll coin I'll mention that you may start seeing is "Bitcoin Cash". This was 'forked' from Bitcoin a few months ago by people who disagreed with how Bitcoin is being managed. They have increased the block size and to some extent restored the original vision of Bitcoin. Its price has not been stable, but it is gaining in popularity.
Yes, the barista at the Bitcoin Cafe said that no one pays with Bitcoin anymore because its too expensive and slow. Everyone uses Litecoin.

This remind me of that Yoga Berra-ism, when he was talking about a popular restaurant they all used to go to: "Nobody goes there anymore, because it's too crowded."

Nobody uses bitcoin anymore because there are too many transactions. Makes perfect sense.

I will try the same experiment with Litecoin and see how that works out.
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nisiprius
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by nisiprius » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:00 am

A stray thought that occurs to me, similar to an issue with gold but, I think, much worse. When you are old enough to have helped your late mother find your late dad's assets, your late sister find your late mother's assets, and your nephews find your late sister's assets, you start to see the problem. Typically you find most of it pretty easily, but then there's a bankbook stuck at the back of a drawer, and something comes in the mail from ComputerShares and you find that the deceased owned 16.31 shares of Prudential due to demutualization, and so forth.

Anyway... when somebody dies, what are the chances of his heirs finding and being able to cash in his bitcoin? Nobody is going to report abandoned bitcoin to the state treasurer.

On a quick Internet search, I find an article in Fortune, What happens to cryptocurrency when you die? The story seems to be saying that your heirs have a fairly good chance if you are using a trusted, centralized, reputable exchange like Coinbase (the latest in a too-long series of "reputable" exchanges)
With documents in hand, the family approached the San Francisco company, which confirmed the existence of a wallet and is in the process of transferring its contents. (Other exchanges also have policies to transfer virtual currency to next of kin but are reluctant to discuss the issue for fear that fraudsters will use fake death claims to steal customers’ Bitcoins.)
But that raises another issue because one of the appeals of bitcoin is never having to trust institutions... and one of the commonest responses to the issue of people losing bitcoin in fraudulent and bankrupt exchanges is "it was their fault for using an exchange to store bitcoin, that was dumb, nobody knowledgeable ever does that, you should always use your own personal wallet."
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by aristotelian » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:07 am

nisiprius wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:00 am
A stray thought that occurs to me, similar to an issue with gold but, I think, much worse. When you are old enough to have helped your late mother find your late dad's assets, your late sister find your late mother's assets, and your nephews find your late sister's assets, you start to see the problem. Typically you find most of it pretty easily, but then there's a bankbook stuck at the back of a drawer, and something comes in the mail from ComputerShares and you find that the deceased owned 16.31 shares of Prudential due to demutualization, and so forth.

Anyway... when somebody dies, what are the chances of his heirs finding and being able to cash in his bitcoin? Nobody is going to report abandoned bitcoin to the state treasurer.

On a quick Internet search, I find an article in Fortune, What happens to cryptocurrency when you die? The story seems to be saying that your heirs have a fairly good chance if you are using a trusted, centralized, reputable exchange like Coinbase (the latest in a too-long series of "reputable" exchanges)
With documents in hand, the family approached the San Francisco company, which confirmed the existence of a wallet and is in the process of transferring its contents. (Other exchanges also have policies to transfer virtual currency to next of kin but are reluctant to discuss the issue for fear that fraudsters will use fake death claims to steal customers’ Bitcoins.)
But that raises another issue because one of the appeals of bitcoin is never having to trust institutions... and one of the commonest responses to the issue of people losing bitcoin in fraudulent and bankrupt exchanges is "it was their fault for using an exchange to store bitcoin, that was dumb, nobody knowledgeable ever does that, you should always use your own personal wallet."
I don't think anybody "investing" in Bitcoin is looking at it as a lifelong asset to bequeath to heirs. They are looking to get rich before the bubble pops.

feh
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by feh » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:14 pm

aristotelian wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:07 am

I don't think anybody "investing" in Bitcoin is looking at it as a lifelong asset to bequeath to heirs. They are looking to get rich before the bubble pops.
Even if this is true, the problem persists. Perhaps the person that purchased the bitcoins dies unexpectedly; if they didn't leave explicit instructions for family members, the bitcoins will be left floating around in the ether, never to be retrieved.

I often wonder what percentage of all bitcoins will go unclaimed.

Swelfie
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Swelfie » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:35 pm

feh wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:14 pm
aristotelian wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:07 am

I don't think anybody "investing" in Bitcoin is looking at it as a lifelong asset to bequeath to heirs. They are looking to get rich before the bubble pops.
Even if this is true, the problem persists. Perhaps the person that purchased the bitcoins dies unexpectedly; if they didn't leave explicit instructions for family members, the bitcoins will be left floating around in the ether, never to be retrieved.

I often wonder what percentage of all bitcoins will go unclaimed.
Holding these where only you know the keys is like burying gold in your backyard. Yes, if you don't tell your heirs that you buried the gold it could be left there indefinitely unclaimed. Worse yet, at least with the gold it only takes someone with a shovel planting a tree to find it. With crypto, it's possible the key gets lost forever. Anyone interested in passing these along to heirs or charity should have a key in a safe deposit box or similar and a will exposing where it is.

Still, a constant loss of coin due to lost keys is expected. The Monero project for one targets 0% inflation in their coin for instance. In order to accomplish this they will mint 0.6% new coins indefinitely to offset a 0.6% expected deflationary pressure due to lost keys.

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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:11 am

nisiprius wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:00 am
Anyway... when somebody dies, what are the chances of his heirs finding and being able to cash in his bitcoin? Nobody is going to report abandoned bitcoin to the state treasurer.

If you keep the keys yourself, it depends on where you keep them:

1. Paper or metal wallet: they only need to find the wallet, so put it in something like a strongbox or safe. Or even a safe deposit box if you have one.
2. iPhone/Android Wallet: if the iPhone has a passcode, someone will have to crack the iPhone code. Then search the iPhone for wallets and any thing else that may be valuable, including email, contact lists, phone records,
4. Wallet on Desktop computer: same as iPhone. Have to log in and look for wallets, etc.
3. Hardware Wallet like Trevor, you had better write the passcode down and 12 words, otherwise you will be in a position like that editor someone posted

This doesn't seem insolvable, you just have to plan for it. But most people that hold bitcoin probably won't bother. Most are 20 something and think they will live forever. When they die suddenly in a fiery car crash, their coins will be locked up forever. This will reduce the amount of bitcoin in circulation, making everyone elses bitcoin more valuable. :sharebeer

Over time, there will be more and more bitcoin out of circulation due to lost keys. So the 21 million, will be shrinking. Even now, the of the Total 16,694,337 BTC that have been mined so far, there are probably already a couple of million lost. Satoshi has about 1 million BTC, and those have never been spent. My guess is he either lost the keys or is dead, because his coins are worth like $8 billion. If he was smart, he would be slowly selling bitcoin, so many BTC each month, and diversifying his portfolio.
Gott mit uns.

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by IMO » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:38 am

Swelfie wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:35 pm
feh wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:14 pm
aristotelian wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:07 am

I don't think anybody "investing" in Bitcoin is looking at it as a lifelong asset to bequeath to heirs. They are looking to get rich before the bubble pops.
Even if this is true, the problem persists. Perhaps the person that purchased the bitcoins dies unexpectedly; if they didn't leave explicit instructions for family members, the bitcoins will be left floating around in the ether, never to be retrieved.

I often wonder what percentage of all bitcoins will go unclaimed.
Holding these where only you know the keys is like burying gold in your backyard. Yes, if you don't tell your heirs that you buried the gold it could be left there indefinitely unclaimed. Worse yet, at least with the gold it only takes someone with a shovel planting a tree to find it. With crypto, it's possible the key gets lost forever. Anyone interested in passing these along to heirs or charity should have a key in a safe deposit box or similar and a will exposing where it is.
I don't know, seems now their are bitcoin ira's:
http://bitcoinira.com/buy-bitcoin/?AID= ... 20(Phrase)

For the record, I'm not a bitcoin fan.

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:42 am

OK, so I decided to repeat the experiment using Litecoin. It is basically the same process as with bitcoin.
1. Download and install a Litecoin Wallet from the App Store on your iPhone.
2. Buy some amount of litecoin from an ATM.
3. Spend litecoin at the Crypto Cafe.

Litecoin requires a different wallet than bitcoin. The sign on the wall at the cafe recommends LoafWallet for iOS, so that's the one I got. Apparently each wallet only supports one cryptocurrency. No problem. Probably better to keep things separate.

Installing Loafwallet was almost the same as for Mycelium. When you open the wallet for the first time, you write down the 12-word Paper Key. LoafWallet adds a 6-digit PIN for added security. LoafWallet provides more or less the same functions as Mycelium. It just arranges the screens a little different.

I headed over to the Crypto Cafe with the ATM. The ATM gives a choice of cryptocurrency: Bitcoin or Litecoin. Buying Litecoin is almost identical to buying Bitcoin: enter your mobile number, they send you an SMS with a code, enter the code, feed in 50 Euro banknote.

Code: Select all

Congratulations!

You have just purchased
0.841166 LTC         Tranaction ID
for                     RSCVY8
50.00 EUR

  DONE            PRINT RECEIPT
Print the receipt:

____________________________________
BUY CRYTPO RECEIPT

Transcation ID: RSCVY8
Time: 18/11/2017 14:25:08
Price: 50.00 EUR
Crypto: 0.841166 LTC
Rate: 1 LTC = 59.441299 EUR
Destination:
LfvQ... (34-letter/number public key address) <-- notice it starts with L. bitcoin started with 1

Keep this receipt for your record of
the transaction

Operator: Name, Address. etc.
____________________________________

I checked the transaction on the iPhone. It reported that it was receiving 48.37 EUR (841.166 lites = 0.841166 LTC)
+1 minute: 20% available to spend
+2 minute: 40% available
+3 minute: 60% available
+4 minute: 80% available
+5 minute: complete. 100% available to spend

So 5 minutes and transaction was complete!
I had the equivalent of 48.37 EUR available to spend.
The exchange fee was 1.63 EUR, which is 3.26%. This is in line with the 3% commission that they advertised on the wall.

:arrow: Nothing to complain about here. That's the way cryptocurrency is supposed to work. Kudos to Litecoin. :beer

I didn't spend any at that time. I headed home with 841.166 lites (48.37 EUR) on my iPhone.
Last edited by grayfox on Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonathan
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Jonathan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:49 pm

For adding a passphrase to a paper wallet, see BIP38 - Bitcoin Improvement Proposal #38. You can actually print out a bunch of copies of a paper wallet, all of them protected with a passphrase of your choosing. Some people like to do BIP38 wallets, placed inside tamper-evident envelopes.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/ma ... .mediawiki

For passing cryptocurrency to your heirs, you can use features like multisigs and timelocking. With multisignatures, multiple authorizations are required to authenticate transactions. This can also be enabled to work with X of Y signatures. So a combination of X of Y heirs and/or X of Y attorneys.

Timelocking can work like a deadman's switch. For example, you can setup your cryptocurrency to transfer to your heirs in 1 year from now. Then, once yearly, you can cancel the transaction.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multisignature
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Timelock

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Dead Man Walking » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:31 pm

Interesting thread! Grayfox certainly is a gentleman and a scholar. :beer

I sure that there are many computer geeks and hackers in the world diligently working on a method to corrupt the crypto currency system. I may not understand crypto currency, but I've learned not to underestimate human ingenuity. Crypto currency is a great example of this ingenuity.

Anonymity seems to be the greatest advantage of crypto currency which makes it attractive for criminal activities, black opts, tax evasion, political corruption, etc.

I'll know it's viable when Bitcoin has a Super Bowl commercial.

DMW

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by ClevrChico » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:18 pm

This was a very interesting post. I think ACH has bitcoin beat right now for easy funds transfers. :-)

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:02 pm

RECAP: Immediately after buying ł 841.166 (ł1,000 = 1 LTC) for €50 from the ATM, LoafWallet showed that it was worth €48.37 at the then current exchange rate. I had lost €1.63, or 3.26%, in fees. This was in line with the 3% fee advertised on the sign.

Note: Litecoin uses ł symbol, which looks like the Polish letter Ł, for lites, which is 1/1000 LTC.

I went back to the Crypto Cafe a couple of days later to spend some of the Litecoin on my iPhone. I just ordered an Americano, a.k.a. Caffè Americano, which is expresso watered down to American strength. The cost was 1.77 EUR.

i looked on LoafWallet and I recall the it showed just over 50 EUR! :o
Of course, the EUR-LTC exchange rate fluctuates up and down. The amount in Litecoin stays the same, but the amount in Euros changes.

When I bought the LTC the rate was 1 LTC = 59.441299 EUR.
When I ordered the coffee, the exchange rate was 1 LTC = 60.23 EUR.
That explains why I had slightly more than €50.00

I clicked "Send". The barrister's screen immediately showed PAID. As I recall, it showed progress every minute, and after five minutes, the screen showed:

______________________________________________
Sent ł 29.146
to LfwMqm.... (34 letters/numbers)


Status
Complete

Amount
-ł 29.146 (ł 0.226 fee)

Starting balance: ł 841.166
Ending balance: ł 811.794

Exchange rate when sent:
€60.23/LTC +6.25%

Sent to This Address:
to LfwMqm....
___________________________________________

LoafWallet sent ł 29.146 (€1.77) to the Cafe, plus a miner's fee of 0.226 lites . In Euros that was 0.226 * 60.23 / 1000 = €0.01361198, or about 1.4 Euro cents, which is less than 2 cents American money.

So there you go: Paid €1.77 for a cup of coffee, plus 1.4 Euro cent fee. Transaction 100% complete in 5 minutes. :sharebeer

:arrow: Litecoin does what Bitcoin was supposed to do, but doesn't! No wonder everyone at the Crypto Cafe is using Litecoin, and no one is using Bitcoin.
Gott mit uns.

feh
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by feh » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:47 pm

grayfox wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:02 pm
Litecoin does what Bitcoin was supposed to do, but doesn't! No wonder everyone at the Crypto Cafe is using Litecoin, and no one is using Bitcoin.
Not to be a buzzkill, but...

I don't know how cryptocurrencies are treated in the UK or Europe, but here in the US, they are considered "intangible property", which means they are subject to capital gains tax. Not just when you sell them on the market, but when you spend them.

So, let's say your litecoins appreciated 10% from the time you bought them until you purchased your coffee. When you bought your coffee, 9% (1/11th) of the purchase price would be subject to capital gains taxes.

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nisiprius
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by nisiprius » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:48 pm

So, what is the list of well-known, big-name places that accept litecoin?

Top 5 businesses that accept Litecoin payments: Ellenet, Sean's Outpost, eGifter, KnCMiner, Benz & Beamer.

Litecoin Business Listings: Merchants

EGIFTER Buy branded gift cards using Litecoin
BITCOIN SHOP One of the largest online retailers accepting Litecoin
COINPLAY Coinplay.io sells indie, PC games in partnership with independent game developers and publishers.
RE/MAX LONDON Buy and sell real estate using Litecoin
CHEAPAIR.COM Use Litecoin for your next flight, hotel, car rental, or cruise
CRYPTOTHRIFT An Australian Litecoin marketplace and auction site
MERCADOVIAGENS.COM A Spanish travel agency accepting Litecoin
COMMON SPARK MEDIA A photography studio accepting Litecoin
GIFTOFF Buy gifts cards from over 160 retailers using Litecoin
PIAF VINTAGE FRENCH Vintage French merchandise for purchase with Litecoin
BTCTRIP Book flights and hotels with Litecoin
FINITE BY DESIGN Purchase physical Litecoins and other branded merchandise
COINRX Online pharmacy accepting Litecoin
BITROAD An electronics store accepting Litecoin
NUCIYA Online beauty retailer that focuses on natural and organic cosmetics and accepts Litecoin
ALL THINGS LUXURY Use Litecoin to purchase fashion jewelry and luxury goods at wholesale prices
THE TECHNO TOURIST A dance oriented travel agency accepting Litecoin
LEALANA Unfunded physical Litecoins
DISTINGUISHED IMPORTS Exciting worldwide imports for Litecoin
SAN MARCO COFFEE Buy fresh roasted coffee to order using Litecoin
SHINY BARS Buy gold and silver with Litecoin
BEESBROS A small family business in Utah selling honey and honey-based products for Litecoin
5 MINUTE RECESS Babywear
CRYPTOPET.COM Online pet retailer accepting Litecoin
TEALETFarm-direct tea for Litecoin
CRYPTOCOIN WALLET CARDS Cold storage in the form of a credit card for Litecoin
AFK APPAREL Gamer clothing for Litecoin
BITCOINJERKY Buy 10 types of jerky using Litecoin
SHIRTWASH.COM Unusual t-shirt designs created by Reddit users and Litecoin friendly
DJI-DRONES.NET DJI-Drones.net is an online dealer for DJI Phantom 3 and Inspire 1 drones in the United States and Canada.
CRYPTOMEMORABILIA.COM Litecoin collectibles and memorabilia
AIRCRAFT-PHOTOS.COM Retailer of high quality aircraft photos accepting Litecoin
CHANCETIMEART Buy one-of-a-kind fantasy/space paintings using Litecoin
CRYPTOCABLES LTC & BTC neon signs & hardware cables
WILD WEST VIRGINIA RAMPS Order leeks/ramps for Litecoin
PRETTYLITTLEPEANUTS.COM Children's e-store accepting Litecoin
LITECOINPHARMACY.COM Online pharmacy accepting Litecoin
CRYFTER Gift cards from a variety of retailers like Amazon, Home Depot, Pandora, etc.
CRYPTOSCHAIN Get shared by depositing coins, earn dividends, receive payouts
BITLASERS Handheld lasers and accessories
CRYPTONAMES Selling premium Litecoin domain names
DUINOBITS Affordable starter kits to learn about arduino programming available for Litecoin
ARKANSAS E LIQUID An electronic cigarettes store accepting Litecoin
KHI BOTANICALS Purchase rare and exotic herbs and spices using Litecoin
GAMERZHEAT.COM Buy video games using Litecoins
RETRO TOWERS Old school video games for Litecoin
BTCZONE E-retailer accepting Litecoin
KERATENE Men's hair care and vitamins retailer accepting LTC ARA CLOUDS A French electronic cigarettes retailer accepting Litecoin
COAEX Precious metals retailer accepting Litecoin
CRYPTOART Purchase a fine art wallet for Litecoin using Litecoin
PROVIDENT METALS Purchase precious metals using Litecoin and receive a 3% discount
PREPAIDVCARD.COM Prepaid virtual Visa cards for Litecoin
COINVERTED Purchase gift cards, electronics, precious metals and more using Litecoin
BLACK FOREST VAPES E-juice creator and retailer accepting Litecoin
PEXPEPPERS Specializing in chili sauces, jellies, salts, and seeds available for Litecoin
MOTION DOGS An affordable wireless follow focus system designed for independent filmmakers and accepting Litecoin
UNLOCKBASE Unlock any cell phone and make payment with Litecoin
HECRO An online music retailer accepting Litecoin
LITECOIN GAMES Buy video games with genuine US Steam or EA Origin keys for Litecoin
CHEVEUX NATURELS Human hair extensions
VERBENA PRODUCTS KODDOS A premium, high end hosting service.
LOVING DOMAINS A cheap domain name registration provider company with web hosting
WROL.INFO The Without Rule of Law survival shop
ARBILNNOVATE WEBSPACES Web hosting with innovative ways to display content, a library of apps, and affordable pricing
XBOX LIVE TRIALS Cheap, 7 day trials of live play
DR. PECK’S HONEY A family owned business selling supplies, honey and gift baskets
WATERIDO A water filter and revitalizer retailer
MININGHARDWARE.CO.UK MONOVM Offer VPS, dedicated servers, domains, and web hosting
THERMOSTATENSHOP A Dutch retailer of thermostats and other electrical heating devices
EUROPAY IN UA Men and women's health care products
HASHRATESTORE A crypto mining accessories retailer
HEALTHIVERSE A retailer of cognitive enhancers, nootropics, and smart drugs
KONVEX TRAFFIC Purchase website traffic worldwide
MULTICRYPTOS An online investment game to be played with cryptocurrencies
NOOBIE,IO A portal where anyone can create a shop to sell their products for virtual currency
TUCSONSALE A retailer of comics, art, and collectibles
SKATINGBLADE.COM Dry-land training equipment used in elite off-ice training programs for skater development.
KHI BOTANICALS KHI Botanicals imports and sells kratom, kava and fine spices.
DIADEM UK Jewellers accepting Litecoin
JUAN MIGUEL SALAS BLOG It is a blog about Arts, Graphic Design and Video with a small e-shop.
CRYPTOCHIPS.NET Purchase crypto themed poker chips with Litecoin
JESTERS LEATHER Handmade leather goods
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

hilink73
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by hilink73 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:21 pm

Dead Man Walking wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:31 pm
Anonymity seems to be the greatest advantage of crypto currency which makes it attractive for criminal activities, black opts, tax evasion, political corruption, etc.
And for privacy, of course.

And oh, the Panama papers recently: no crypto stuff involved.
Just a bit more than normal determination to avoid paying taxes.

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by nisiprius » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:06 pm

I see that one of the places that accepts Litecoin is a company called Lealana that sells, quote, "unfunded physical Litecoins." I am trying to wrap my head around this concept.

As I understand it, it means that one of the things you can use your Litecoins for, is to exchange Litecoins that are probably not utterly worthless to buy an "unfunded" Litecoin that is guaranteed definitively to be worthless.

"No COAs will be provided." Does COA mean "certificate of authenticity?"

Why would anyone want to do that?

http://www.lealana.com

Image
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FelixTheCat
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by FelixTheCat » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:11 pm

I've had 4 people in the last week telling me Bitcoin was the Wave of the Future. I stated the Boglehead wiki and they said I don't understand. I told them it's like 2008 all over again and they told me to do some research.

My favorite is "I don't understand what it is but I am handing my money over to some guy to invest for me."
Felix is a wonderful, wonderful cat.

hilink73
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by hilink73 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:26 am

FelixTheCat wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:11 pm
I've had 4 people in the last week telling me Bitcoin was the Wave of the Future. I stated the Boglehead wiki and they said I don't understand. I told them it's like 2008 all over again and they told me to do some research.

My favorite is "I don't understand what it is but I am handing my money over to some guy to invest for me."
Well, Bitcoin is there since 2008! It's not new. But you probably mean something else.

I see it like this: I'm not a mathematician, but I understand the basic principles.
But this case it doesn't even matter to me.

There's potential to make a lot of money. Completely different to any scams or something like that. There's realistic potential to make money.

If I succeed, I can push my retirement date forward a lot. A sty the course and just have more in the long run.
If that all fails, all I've lost are a couple of some ten thousands grand. So, for me, this specific risk is worth it.

Also, I've been through crashes of 50% on a single day without flinching.
This gives me the confidence that I'll stomach any stock market crashes which are normally much smoother than any given day in crypto.

Also, some people here seem to be very tight about having some fun, or putting some fun money into something that could grow big.
Excitement! New frontiers! Why are you all so stressed about something fun? If you don't like it or understand it, why comment at all?

I remember 1995. This first affordable GSM cell phones on the market. That hate and envy in some people.
In the end, they all got one. Although some of only years later.

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randomizer
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by randomizer » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:33 am

The bitcoin train may be leaving the station without me. Oh well.

hilink73
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by hilink73 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:37 am

nisiprius wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:06 pm
I see that one of the places that accepts Litecoin is a company called Lealana that sells, quote, "unfunded physical Litecoins." I am trying to wrap my head around this concept.

As I understand it, it means that one of the things you can use your Litecoins for, is to exchange Litecoins that are probably not utterly worthless to buy an "unfunded" Litecoin that is guaranteed definitively to be worthless.

"No COAs will be provided." Does COA mean "certificate of authenticity?"

Why would anyone want to do that?

http://www.lealana.com

Image
Well. there certainly are a lot of scams in this world.
This is utterly useless.
We are talking digital assets here, living on the Internet.

But some people fall for stuff like that. Sad.

hilink73
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by hilink73 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:24 am

randomizer wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:33 am
The bitcoin train may be leaving the station without me. Oh well.
There are other digital assets, too.
Bitcoin is not the only option.

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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:45 am

If anyone is interested in the subject of Cryptocurrencies, I would recommend that you do what I did. Set up a wallet on your smart phone and then load some bitcoin or Litecoin onto your wallet. Then go and spend some.

I would be interested in hearing about BH's experience doing this:

1. Which Cryptocurrency did you choose and which Wallet did you set up?
2. How did you load money onto the wallet?
  • Buy at an ATM?
    Buy at Exchange?
    Buy from an individual?
    Had a friend send you some?
    Another method to get some coin?
3. How difficult/easy was everything?
4. How much did you lose when exchanging dollars/Euros into crypto?
5. What fees did you pay when you bought and spent?
6. How long did the transactions take to confirm?

There's no better way to learn than by doing. Feel free to post your experiences on this thread.
Gott mit uns.

feh
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by feh » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:36 am

grayfox wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:45 am
There's no better way to learn than by doing. Feel free to post your experiences on this thread.
Your experiences speak volumes. At the moment, using bitcoin for every day purchases does not make sense; the fees are too high. While I've never done it, it sounds as though using litecoin may be feasible.

However, I do not own cryptos for use as currency. I hold them (~1% of our portfolio) as a purely speculative investment. I'm prepared for them to be worthless.

ny_rn
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by ny_rn » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:51 am

You can purchase gift cards with bitcoin via gyft.com.

I have never actually used bitcoin, ethereum or litecoin for a transaction. I hold them purely for speculation. Maybe one day they'll produce "life-changing" money for me. If not, no big deal. I still have my lazy Boglehead portfolio.

gfmels
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by gfmels » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:09 am

nisiprius wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:06 pm
I see that one of the places that accepts Litecoin is a company called Lealana that sells, quote, "unfunded physical Litecoins." I am trying to wrap my head around this concept.

As I understand it, it means that one of the things you can use your Litecoins for, is to exchange Litecoins that are probably not utterly worthless to buy an "unfunded" Litecoin that is guaranteed definitively to be worthless.

"No COAs will be provided." Does COA mean "certificate of authenticity?"

Why would anyone want to do that?

http://www.lealana.com

Image
I'm not familiar with these particular coins but the idea is that they're a physical coin that hides a private key under a tamper evident seal. It's basically a pretty paper wallet: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Paper_wallet . They can be used as gifts or held as novelty items/collectibles.
The prices on that website are outrageous because they haven't changed in a very long time. None of the buttons work either, you can't buy them.
They were probably being sold unfunded because selling funded coins in the US makes you a money transmitter requiring federal and state licenses.
It is an odd combination though, you take this trustless money and add a individual or group that you have to trust. You only have the word of the manufacturer that they don't have a copy of the private key.

fatlever
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by fatlever » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:49 pm

randomizer wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:33 am
The bitcoin train may be leaving the station without me. Oh well.

You don't have to buy a whole Bitcoin. You can buy whatever amount you're comfortable investing or speculating.

A great way to buy Bitcoin and spend Bitcoin is to Dollar Cost Average weekly or on the dips in Coinbase and also get a Coinbase/Shift Visa Debit Card. I keep a small amount in Coinbase that I use as a checking account and using the Shift Card I only spend from it when the price of Bitcoin goes up at least 10-15% from the last purchase I made. They immediately debit the dollar amount at the current exchange rate. This way, I am always spending less money than I am putting in and I am getting rewarded much more than the 2% Cash back cards or jumping through all those hoops to get the bonus for various checking accounts. This also makes me more frugal because I know I am spending Bitcoin and the $25 I am spending might be $35 next week

So everything is on 15% discount. Christmas big purchase items should be 75% discount. I wouldn't keep a lot of money in exchanges though. I don't even trust myself -- a lot of my Bitcoin in timelocked addresses only to be released in 2018, 2019 and 2020. Smart money 8-)

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by birdog » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:52 pm

fatlever wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:49 pm
So everything is on 15% discount. Christmas big purchase items should be 75% discount. I wouldn't keep a lot of money in exchanges though. I don't even trust myself -- a lot of my Bitcoin in timelocked addresses only to be released in 2018, 2019 and 2020. Smart money 8-)
Wait...what? Smart money?
The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity -Bruce Lee

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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:15 am

Keep sharing more stories about about spending bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

Here is a documentary where filmmaker Morgan Spurlock tried Living on Bitcoin for a Week.

At 1:00 in, Morgan Spurlock says:
Some people say that it's the wave of the future. One day we'll be able to pay for everything from houses to a cup of coffee.
That was back in 2013. Now, it's the end of 2017. I bought s cup of coffee. Anyone here buy a house yet with bitcoin? Soon you will be able to buy a house with 1 BTC and get enough change back to buy a Mercedes to park in the garage. :wink:
Gott mit uns.

fatlever
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by fatlever » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:18 am

birdog wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:52 pm
fatlever wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:49 pm
So everything is on 15% discount. Christmas big purchase items should be 75% discount. I wouldn't keep a lot of money in exchanges though. I don't even trust myself -- a lot of my Bitcoin in timelocked addresses only to be released in 2018, 2019 and 2020. Smart money 8-)
Wait...what? Smart money?
By smart money, I meant programmable money. I mean you can put your Bitcoin in a time locked address makes it sure that you can't withdraw coins from there until a certain date or block height. Also, you can send Bitcoin to someone in a transaction hash that they can't use until a future date unless of course you've spent that Bitcoin. This allows for things like giving your heirs your Bitcoin. You can also require that multiple signatures are required for a transaction from an address which prevents embezzlement, one party stealing money, etc. Ethereum of course is much more ambitious with contracts that in the future interact with outside world events, etc. Maybe not necessarily with Bitcoin or Ethereum or even anything that exists today but I am sold on a future with programmable money flowing and negotiating between people and devices.

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by midareff » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:24 am

I will be 70 next month and am proceeding under the assumption that cash and credit cards.. as in traditional plastic and USA folding money, will still be used in my lifetime. What does greatly concern me is the (perceived) speculative frenzy surrounding these instruments and what generally happens when the frenzy ends, and what effect that will have on what seems like a richly priced stock market.

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birdog
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by birdog » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:57 pm

fatlever wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:18 am
birdog wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:52 pm
fatlever wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:49 pm
So everything is on 15% discount. Christmas big purchase items should be 75% discount. I wouldn't keep a lot of money in exchanges though. I don't even trust myself -- a lot of my Bitcoin in timelocked addresses only to be released in 2018, 2019 and 2020. Smart money 8-)
Wait...what? Smart money?
By smart money, I meant programmable money. I mean you can put your Bitcoin in a time locked address makes it sure that you can't withdraw coins from there until a certain date or block height. Also, you can send Bitcoin to someone in a transaction hash that they can't use until a future date unless of course you've spent that Bitcoin. This allows for things like giving your heirs your Bitcoin. You can also require that multiple signatures are required for a transaction from an address which prevents embezzlement, one party stealing money, etc. Ethereum of course is much more ambitious with contracts that in the future interact with outside world events, etc. Maybe not necessarily with Bitcoin or Ethereum or even anything that exists today but I am sold on a future with programmable money flowing and negotiating between people and devices.
Thank you for the explanation. I see what you're saying now.
The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity -Bruce Lee

Valuethinker
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:37 am

midareff wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:24 am
I will be 70 next month and am proceeding under the assumption that cash and credit cards.. as in traditional plastic and USA folding money, will still be used in my lifetime. What does greatly concern me is the (perceived) speculative frenzy surrounding these instruments and what generally happens when the frenzy ends, and what effect that will have on what seems like a richly priced stock market.
You are just out of date and old fashioned ;-).

This is not a bubble, this is the future. It's like the internets, it is going to be big, really big.

Canals (England 1820s & 30s), railroads (Britain 1840s), radio & telephone (US 1920s), Florida land in the 1920s, " 'lectronic" boom of the early 1960s (any company with electronic in the name), gold & silver in 1980, oil in 1980, junk bonds in the late 1980s, internet stocks in the 1990s -- all these things were quite real in terms of long term secular forces (well, maybe not gold & silver) and those on early made a lot of money (if they got out). However those on late, less so.

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Jags4186 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:53 am

My 68 year old father-in-law and mother-in-law asked me last night to explain Bitcoinin layman’s terms. I sat, struggled for a second, and the best answer I could come up with was that it was at best a speculative investment and at worst a giant con.

After reading this thread I feel like that’s been confirmed.

$5 fee to spend $3.50? I’m sure Visa would love to increase their transaction fee from 2% to 133%! Bitcoin doesn’t even give you extended warranty or price matching :shock:

invest0
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by invest0 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:14 am

nisiprius wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:00 am
Anyway... when somebody dies, what are the chances of his heirs finding and being able to cash in his bitcoin? Nobody is going to report abandoned bitcoin to the state treasurer.
I think that's actually an advantage -- if somebody leaves behind their wallet seed phrase on a piece of paper, anybody can restore it with any wallet and everybody's all set.

Government institutions do not need to be involved and nobody needs to appear before a judge.

SEAworld9
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by SEAworld9 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:55 pm

grayfox wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:15 am
Keep sharing more stories about about spending bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

Here is a documentary where filmmaker Morgan Spurlock tried Living on Bitcoin for a Week.

At 1:00 in, Morgan Spurlock says:
Some people say that it's the wave of the future. One day we'll be able to pay for everything from houses to a cup of coffee.
That was back in 2013. Now, it's the end of 2017. I bought s cup of coffee. Anyone here buy a house yet with bitcoin? Soon you will be able to buy a house with 1 BTC and get enough change back to buy a Mercedes to park in the garage. :wink:
haha funny you say this about housing. re/max london actually accepts bitcoin as payment!

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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:04 pm

Holy cow! Bitcoin market is going crazy. :greedy BTC price is now $15,814.20 which is down from the peak of over $18,000 yesterday.

Meanwhile the Mempool has over 200,000 unconfirmed transaction in it. It started filling up on Dec 6 and by Dec 7 was over 200,00. Remember that only about 2,000 - 3,000 transactions can fit in a block every 10 minutes, on average. In the past 24 hours, there have been 410,721 transactions confirmed. Even if there no new transactions, it would take half a day to clear out all the Mempool.

So there will be delays, unless you pay up. But how much?

https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/ has a chart. They write:
Which fee should I use?

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 490 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 226 bytes, this results in a fee of 110,740 satoshis.
110,740 satoshi is about $17.51.

So my $4 cup of coffee and cake would need a $17.51 fee. Crazy time for Bitcoin.
Gott mit uns.

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nisiprius
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by nisiprius » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:07 pm

SEAworld9 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:55 pm
...re/max london actually accepts bitcoin as payment!...
Please point us to something, from within the last few months that shows us that they really are doing this currently.

The other day, someone said that the Subway sandwich chain accept bitcoin as payment and I clicked all over their website, with particular attention to ordering online, and could find no evidence that they actually do.

There are a lot of news stories, all on bitcoin news sites, all from early 2015, saying that RE/MAX accepts Bitcoin, Litecoin, and Dogecoin... but only as payment for rentals, you cannot buy a house with Bitcoin. And I can't find anything later than that.

One of those 2015 stories uses the word "piloting."
Last edited by nisiprius on Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zeugmite
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by zeugmite » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:39 pm

hilink73 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:21 pm
Dead Man Walking wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:31 pm
Anonymity seems to be the greatest advantage of crypto currency which makes it attractive for criminal activities, black opts, tax evasion, political corruption, etc.
And for privacy, of course.

And oh, the Panama papers recently: no crypto stuff involved.
Just a bit more than normal determination to avoid paying taxes.
Nah, the most compelling use case is electronic cash, where the transaction is 100% irreversible. Say you are a seller of goods, if you use Paypal or something else through the regular banking system, there always seems to be some way to reverse the transaction if certain conditions aren't fulfilled. With distributed trust it's P2P with no pesky intermediaries involved at all. The reverse can also be true (theoretically) with Ethereum, if you should want contractual certainty. Taking humans and their fickle institutions out of the loop has its uses, and truly P2P exchange of electronic funds has its uses.

tl;dr: All current commercial electronic "payments," "wallets," and "phone/watch pays" are not the true electronic equivalent of cash. They are intrusions by various intermediaries where there were none.

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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:56 pm

RECAP: As an experiment, I bought 50 EUR worth of bitcoin and paid about 4 EUR for coffee and cake. After all the fees, I had only about 35 EUR left in my Wallet. I did a similar experiment with Litecoin.

Those were the only transactions I did. So what do my wallets show now?

Mycelium Bitcoin Wallet: 67.75 EUR
Litecoin LoafWallet: 85.24 EUR

I put 50 EUR into each Wallet. Bought coffee and now have more than I started with. 8-)

A Wallet that replenishes itself. This is Magic Internet Money! :sharebeer
Gott mit uns.

zeugmite
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by zeugmite » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:02 pm

Money does grow on (spanning) trees :wink:

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Epsilon Delta » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:33 pm

invest0 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:14 am
nisiprius wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:00 am
Anyway... when somebody dies, what are the chances of his heirs finding and being able to cash in his bitcoin? Nobody is going to report abandoned bitcoin to the state treasurer.
I think that's actually an advantage -- if somebody leaves behind their wallet seed phrase on a piece of paper, anybody can restore it with any wallet and everybody's all set.

Government institutions do not need to be involved and nobody needs to appear before a judge.
According to law Bitcoins are personal property and are part of the estate. Any piece of property that belongs to an estate can be transfered without bothering a judge, but if somebody (e.g. another heir or a creditor of the estate) brings it to the attention of a judge the judge will be interested.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by EnjoyIt » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:54 pm

Thanks for this insightful experiment. Makes we want to try it out just for fun.

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grayfox
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by grayfox » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:39 am

grayfox wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:56 pm
RECAP: As an experiment, I bought 50 EUR worth of bitcoin and paid about 4 EUR for coffee and cake. After all the fees, I had only about 35 EUR left in my Wallet. I did a similar experiment with Litecoin.

Those were the only transactions I did. So what do my wallets show now?

Mycelium Bitcoin Wallet: 67.75 EUR
Litecoin LoafWallet: 85.24 EUR

I put 50 EUR into each Wallet. Bought coffee and now have more than I started with. 8-)

A Wallet that replenishes itself. This is Magic Internet Money! :sharebeer
That was ages ago: last Friday (Dec 8, 2017).
Now it's a new week. Here is today:

Date: Tue Dec 12, 2017
Mycelium Bitcoin Wallet: 76.97 EUR
Litecoin LoafWallet: 210.81 EUR


My Litecoin balance went from 85.24 to 210.81 over the weekend! :moneybag :arrow: :moneybag :moneybag
Gott mit uns.

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Veiled
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Re: Buying and Spending Bitcoin

Post by Veiled » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:23 pm

This is a fabulous thread...entertaining and so informative.
Valuethinker wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:27 pm
J_Markov wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:33 pm
Forgive my ignorance on monetary policy, but can the Federal Reserve come up with a cryptocurrency? In other words, can they decide one day that they will substitute the dollar for their own cryptocurrency? In Europe many countries were switched to the Euro in the not so distant past, could they do the same in the future with a cryptocurrency?
On CBs and Crypto Bank of England blog has had a couple of posts and links to papers they have produced. Yes, it could be used for settlement between CBs. SDRs are a money created by the IMF that CBs use in this fashion. Not crypto, but an artificial currency.
I think blockchain is attractive and could be positioned to decrease regulation costs and attract government involvement, so I think government issued cryptocurrency is the new self-driving car (i.e. seems impossible now, might be doable eventually although probably further away than we think).
Pardon me as I read these one hundred and fifty-seven SP vs LLC vs Scorp threads...

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