Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

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John Laurens
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Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by John Laurens » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:27 pm

I am a TDA customer. (HSA, taxable,2 solo 401ks, 2 Roth IRAs). I made a large deposit to my taxable account earlier in the week. When I do this my rep usually calls me, he did. I asked him specifically about rumors of them dropping Vanguard ETF’s commission free. He confirmed that “most of them would be rotating out” in November. I told him this would be a problem for me because I exclusively use VTI, VEA, VWO, BND. He told me they were going to expand to 200 commission free etfs. I told him if they were higher cost etfs (read Pay for play at TDA) I wasn’t interested. I was hoping that if there were enough feedback from bogleheads they might reconsider.

Regards,
John

denovo
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by denovo » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:40 pm

Oh, this sucks.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:47 pm

I have heard nothing of this and actually just bought some more VTI yesterday in my TDA account (a very small amount). If they drop VTI (the only thing I buy there) as free, I'll wait for all my investments to become long term, sell all but one share and put all the money in Schwab. TDA never calls me but it's a small account for me.
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jlgrandam
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jlgrandam » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:10 pm

That is bad news as I use TDA to hold Vanguard ETFs . Where did you first hear about this?

John Laurens
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by John Laurens » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm

I had not received any notice from them. I asked rep only because someone else mentioned it in a BH HSA thread. He didn’t comment on which ones would be removed from list. Only that most would be rotated out. Besides cash at Ally, my entire portfolio is at TDA. He mentioned that if it was a big deal to me he could give me free trades. I told him that might work, but I didn’t want to call every year to beg for trades. I hope to get some more feedback from fellow BH.

Regards,
John

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm

No problemo, use Vanguard brokerage, Vanguard ETF's galore! :D
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John Laurens
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by John Laurens » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:18 pm

jlgrandam wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:10 pm
That is bad news as I use TDA to hold Vanguard ETFs . Where did you first hear about this?
There is an HSA Lively thread. They use TDA as brokerage window. Another BH user mentioned it.

Regards,
John

John Laurens
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by John Laurens » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:20 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm
No problemo, use Vanguard brokerage, Vanguard ETF's galore! :D
No can do. Have 7plus figure solo 401k. No etfs, admiral shares in Vanguard’s solo 401k.

Regards,
John

avalpert
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by avalpert » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:41 pm

Their terms require 30 days notice before removing ETFs from the list - so I'd wait until official notice and see what kind of reaction they get.

drk
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by drk » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:43 pm

If true, that's really frustrating. I just moved to TDA a couple of months ago. The whole premise of their Morningstar-selected list is that it's unbiased.

John Laurens
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by John Laurens » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Called and spoke to second rep (one yesterday, one today). He confirmed that November 21 a new commission free etf list would become active. He said notices of list would go out soon. He did confirm that Vanguard ETFs would NOT be included. I asked if he could email me the list. He said that all the etfs had not been finalized and did not have list available to send.

This smells of pay for play to be included in list. (Similar to what Schwab does for their non-proprietary etfs).

Regards,
John

Outafter20
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Outafter20 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:49 pm

Hopefully they will keep their iShares ETFs.

motorcyclesarecool
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by motorcyclesarecool » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:53 pm

Hmmm. I have an HSA and two Coverdell ESAs there. My guess is I'll leave the HSA there on a DRIP but add nothing new. Them doing this after gobbling up Scottrade is... unfortunate. Who's the next best ESA trustee?
Understand that choosing an HDHP is very much a "red pill" approach. Most would rather pay higher premiums for a $20 copay per visit. They will think you weird for choosing an HSA.

stupidkid
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by stupidkid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:37 pm

Does this mean new purchases only would begin to charge a commission? If I keep current holdings as is my expenses don't go up, right? What about upon sale? I guess I'll go read up. This is a bummer, I do the occasional single stock trade but most assets are in vanguard ETFs across brokerage, ira, and hsa.

hmw
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by hmw » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:50 pm

I have investments at TDA and Fidelity. About 50-50. I have been putting new money into TDA because they still give a few hundred dollars for bringing in new money, whereas Fidelity has gotten rid their promotions except free trades, which is of little value to me. If the changes go through, I will ask for free trades from TDA. If they refuse, I will just move my account to Fido. Fido has free trades with Ishares ETFs which are pretty competitive against Vanguard ETFs.

MrJones
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by MrJones » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:09 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm
No problemo, use Vanguard brokerage, Vanguard ETF's galore! :D
That's not an option for HSAs unfortunately.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:20 pm

If you have at least 50k in assets, Merrill Edge with Preferred Rewards is a good option. They give 30 free equity trades/month with 50k, or 100 with 100k. You can get almost any ETF that way, and no frequent-trading restriction either.

https://info.bankofamerica.com/preferred-rewards/

If the musical chairs of brokerage bonuses ever stops, that's probably where I would consolidate.
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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:27 pm

Outafter20 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:49 pm
Hopefully they will keep their iShares ETFs.
If they're dropping Vanguard ETFs, I hope they will expand their iShares ETFs. They currently only have a handful of the iShares core ETFs on the commission-free list. By comparison, Fidelity offers 70 commission-free iShares covering all of the major asset-classes.

deltaneutral83
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by deltaneutral83 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:54 pm

Well, I guess I'm moving to schwab or fido. Has Schwab's Intl. fund been beating Vanguard's the last 7 years substantially or did I read that wrong?

galectin
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by galectin » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:06 pm

I have been a happy TDA customer for years and have been using the commission-free low ER Vanguard ETFs. Since I just retired I am transferring money from TDA to my checking acct. by selling some of the ETFs in my brokerage acct. on a monthly basis. I will consider moving the funds for these distributions, at least, to another provider if I am not happy with the alternatives going forward. But, I will wait to evaluate the situation when it arises.

Outafter20
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Outafter20 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:09 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:27 pm
Outafter20 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:49 pm
Hopefully they will keep their iShares ETFs.
If they're dropping Vanguard ETFs, I hope they will expand their iShares ETFs. They currently only have a handful of the iShares core ETFs on the commission-free list. By comparison, Fidelity offers 70 commission-free iShares covering all of the major asset-classes.
That's what I meant to say. I have my taxable account at TDA and would consider staying if they expanded the iShare lineup.

tj
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by tj » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:05 pm

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:54 pm
Well, I guess I'm moving to schwab or fido. Has Schwab's Intl. fund been beating Vanguard's the last 7 years substantially or did I read that wrong?
Does it follow a different index?

bargainhuntingking
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by bargainhuntingking » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:23 pm

This is disappointing news.

I have my HSA through TDA and recently rolled over a sizable 401k into a TDA solo 401k a few months ago. Shortly thereafter, I was disappointed to learn that their cash bonus for rollovers only applied to IRAs and not 401k (I should have read the fine print). But now this?

I had appreciated their selection of Vanguard ETFs...

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:47 pm

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:54 pm
Well, I guess I'm moving to schwab or fido. Has Schwab's Intl. fund been beating Vanguard's the last 7 years substantially or did I read that wrong?
There are a number of international ETFs. Which ones specifically are you comparing?
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livesoft
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by livesoft » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:50 pm

I haven't seen anything on this, but if it comes to pass, I will probably

a. Use the no-commission ETFs that are available. I already use some non-Vanguard ETFs.
b. Transfer in-kind assets to my other no-commission brokers as needed to sell shares without commissions.
c. Or even perhaps pay the once every couple of years commission of $7 a trade.

I see no reason to worry too much about this.
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birdog
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by birdog » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:28 pm

I add new money every month and have no interest in paying trading costs to purchase the Vanguard ETFs that I want when I can buy them for free elsewhere. Unless they offer me free trades to stay I will most likely vacate TDA.
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Chuffly
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Chuffly » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:14 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:27 pm
Outafter20 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:49 pm
Hopefully they will keep their iShares ETFs.
If they're dropping Vanguard ETFs, I hope they will expand their iShares ETFs. They currently only have a handful of the iShares core ETFs on the commission-free list. By comparison, Fidelity offers 70 commission-free iShares covering all of the major asset-classes.
Agreed. If TD replaces the Vanguard ETF's with iShares equivalents, I don't see much reason to switch. However, if they fail to switch the Vanguard ETF's I've used with an equivalent at roughly the same expense ratio, then I'll probably look further into the Merrill Edge account mentioned upthread.

I will be interested to see when TD releases their finalized list and what ETF's ended up on there. I have the majority of my investments at TD so we'll see how this goes.

mongstradamus
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by mongstradamus » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:51 pm

I was just looking at tda because of this thread, what would people use if they get rid of vanguard. Namely what would they use to replace VTI? I couldn't really find anything unless you use a bunch of ishares etfs maybe to replicate an all market etf.

edit: I guess, IWV ishares russell 3000 could be the closest to replicating vti ?

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indexfundfan
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by indexfundfan » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:03 pm

mongstradamus wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:51 pm
I was just looking at tda because of this thread, what would people use if they get rid of vanguard. Namely what would they use to replace VTI? I couldn't really find anything unless you use a bunch of ishares etfs maybe to replicate an all market etf.

edit: I guess, IWV ishares russell 3000 could be the closest to replicating vti ?
There is ITOT from iShares with ER 0.03%...
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Chuffly
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Chuffly » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:26 pm

indexfundfan wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:03 pm
mongstradamus wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:51 pm
I was just looking at tda because of this thread, what would people use if they get rid of vanguard. Namely what would they use to replace VTI? I couldn't really find anything unless you use a bunch of ishares etfs maybe to replicate an all market etf.

edit: I guess, IWV ishares russell 3000 could be the closest to replicating vti ?
There is ITOT from iShares with ER 0.03%...
Yes, the hope would be that they would bring a solution like ITOT on board as one of the alleged 200 commission-free ETF's that will be on their 11/21 list.

If you were willing to use two funds, you could probably mimic to a reasonable extent with IVV (iShares S&P 500) and IJR (iShares Core Small Cap). That said, there's probably not much point in really speculating what to replace VTI with until we see the final list.

stlutz
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by stlutz » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:17 pm

The iShares/Fidelity relationship seems to be pretty tight and maybe even exclusive. For example, iShares is not a part of Schwab's pay-to-play plan. I'm not sure that I'd expect to see them on TDA. My bet is that you'll see a large number of State Street ones.

Chuffly
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Chuffly » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:27 pm

stlutz wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:17 pm
The iShares/Fidelity relationship seems to be pretty tight and maybe even exclusive. For example, iShares is not a part of Schwab's pay-to-play plan. I'm not sure that I'd expect to see them on TDA. My bet is that you'll see a large number of State Street ones.
While I do agree that iShares is pretty tight with Fidelity, it's not a completely exclusive relationship, as TD does already offer a handful of iShares ETF's commission free (I know this because I have used several of them).

State Street isn't a bad bet though, as TD already does have a number of their offerings.

Either way, I'd like to think that TD wouldn't have done this without having reasonable substitutes of some sort in mind. That said, it's not like those of us using the commission free ETF'S are big money-makers for TD - it's always possible they figured it wasn't a huge loss to shed a few cost-conscious Bogleheads when making this move.

Katietsu
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Katietsu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:59 pm

Article from WSJ time stamped Oct 16 12:01 AM.



"TD Ameritrade is overhauling its commission-free ETF trading platform, adding dozens of new funds and jettisoning all offerings from Vanguard Group."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/td-ameritr ... 1508126461

drk
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by drk » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:09 am

TD Ameritrade’s revamped platform will add ETFs from four asset managers it hadn’t previously offered on its commission-free platform: AGFiQ Asset Management, the quantitative investment platform of AGF Management Ltd. ; First Trust Portfolios LP; J.P. Morgan Asset Management, a unit of J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.; and ProShare Advisors LLC.
Is anyone familiar with these providers? ProShares (IIRC) specializes in leveraged ETFs. I don't expect much from JPM, and I've never heard of the others.
In addition, offerings from State Street Global Advisors, a unit of State Street Corp., WisdomTree Investments Inc. and PowerShares by Invesco Ltd. will be replaced with other ETFs from those firms, it said. Some of the iShares ETFs from BlackRock Inc. currently offered on a commission-free basis will remain, while others will be replaced, the company said.
I'll wait for an announcement with details, but this sounds pretty grim for low-cost investing with TDA.

lazyday
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by lazyday » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:46 am

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:20 pm
If you have at least 50k in assets, Merrill Edge with Preferred Rewards is a good option. They give 30 free equity trades/month with 50k
With under 50k, Fidelity and Schwab have some decent ETFs that trade free. Otherwise ETF trades are $5.

Trades are getting so cheap that even though I qualify for Merrill's free trades, I'm considering consolidating with a broker with a good reputation for customer service like Fido or Schwab. Fido seems to have good order execution, Schwab would save me $5 when trading Schwab RAFI funds. Some "Core" etfs trading free at Fidelity are fine, but personally I would choose a Vanguard fund over them and just pay the 5.

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indexfundfan
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by indexfundfan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:43 am

I'm sure the spin, when TDAM announces the new lineup, would be that they want "to give investors more choices, more value for money"... LOL.
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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:57 am

drk wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:09 am
I'll wait for an announcement with details, but this sounds pretty grim for low-cost investing with TDA.
It definitely does not sound like a promising line-up. :annoyed

I'm glad the list is coming out today, because I'm going to be investing my rolled-over HSA money there this week. I'd like to make an informed decision.

Outafter20
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Outafter20 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:01 am

It sounds like Etrade's "commission free" ETFs - all high expense ratio.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by indexfundfan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:24 am

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indexfundfan
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by indexfundfan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:31 am

Doesn't look like there is a good replacement for VTI. No ITOT, no SCHB.
Wait, it looks like their replacement for VTI is SPTM. ER 0.03%, but thinly traded for now.
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lazyday
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by lazyday » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:52 am

indexfundfan wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:31 am
Wait, it looks like their replacement for VTI is SPTM. ER 0.03%, but thinly traded for now.
There's several SPDR® Portfolio funds.

SPDW SPDR® Portfolio World ex-US ETF has only 33 million shares outstanding.

Lots of names on this list look like they are funds in need of shareholders. Maybe some good funds in there, if you don't mind the risk of the fund closing, or the thin trading.

nps
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by nps » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:56 am

Looks like SPTM is a fund name change from THRK (SPDR Russell 3000 ETF) and effective today. The updated fund reduced fees and changed its tracking index.

https://us.spdrs.com/public/SPDR_SERIES ... PECTUS.pdf

livesoft
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by livesoft » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:16 am

It looks like I'll be transferring assets in-kind out of TDAmeritrade. They have one ETF on the list that has an Average Daily Volume of 57. That's not 5700, it is fifty-seven shares.
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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:23 am

lazyday wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:52 am
There's several SPDR® Portfolio funds.
The SPDR® Portfolio site is currently "down for maintenance." :?

I'm disappointed that they have MTUM and QUAL, two of the iShares Edge single-factor funds, on the commission-free list but not VLUE. I've always liked the construction of VLUE.

John Laurens
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by John Laurens » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:27 am

livesoft wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:16 am
It looks like I'll be transferring assets in-kind out of TDAmeritrade. They have one ETF on the list that has an Average Daily Volume of 57. That's not 5700, it is fifty-seven shares.
LOL. I knew it wouldn’t be good. I could call and get them to give me enough free trades to cover me. But I’m a man of principle!

Regards,
John

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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:33 am

Here is the list of the new SPDR low-cost ETFs.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/2 ... a-Low-Cost

SPEM is a name change from GMM, with a price drop from 59 bp to 11 bp. It already had $577.45 MM in assets and traded $2.83 MM per day (albeit with a much higher spread at 16 bp than VWO or IEMG).

I would guess that the liquidity will improve with the price drops and new family of low-cost siblings.

MFInvestor
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TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall commi

Post by MFInvestor » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:35 am

WSJ 10/16/2017

TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup
TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall commission-free offerings

https://www.wsj.com/articles/td-ameritr ... 1508126461

"TD Ameritrade is overhauling its commission-free ETF trading platform, adding dozens of new funds and jettisoning all offerings from Vanguard Group.

The move, to be unveiled later Monday, is intended to put the discount brokerage on better footing to compete with rivals like Charles Schwab & Co., which offers a broad selection of exchange-traded funds.

Vanguard, which doesn’t pay brokerage firms to sell its funds, won’t appear on TD Ameritrade’s list of commission-fee options. Vanguard products will still be available elsewhere on TD’s platform. Earlier this year, the company expressed disappointment when some Vanguard funds were removed from another brokerage’s platform

TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall commission-free offerings—to 296 from 100—by adding four new ETF providers and changing some of its offerings from other ETF providers, it said."

deltaneutral83
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by deltaneutral83 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:43 am

So how much longer will VTI be traded commission free on TDA, or is it a already over?

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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:45 am

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:43 am
So how much longer will VTI be traded commission free on TDA, or is it a already over?
It should be at least 30 days from when they make the change official.

avalpert
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by avalpert » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:49 am

It really doesn't look that bad at all. The new State Street portfolio funds are added low cost competition - that is a good thing - and seem to cover all the broad categories.

Of my core funds, the only one that I currently buy there with no commission that I don't see a great replacement for me is VOE - but overall, this list isn't bad.

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