Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by triceratop » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:17 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:23 pm
I will say that on recent TDAmeritrade reinvestment, I got a decent price for VCSH earlier this week near the low of the day. Last week, I paid a price of $70 for AGG even though it is trading near $109. :twisted:
Have you checked that you received the correct number of shares for the size of the distribution? It could be a cost basis problem, which would in fact be worse for you.

edit: never mind.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by deltaneutral83 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:06 am

doingwell wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:43 pm
It is there. It shows up on the third page of holdings at etfdb.com (http://etfdb.com/etf/SPTM/#holdings).
Thanks, interesting that BRK inside State Street's Total US (SPTM) has half the weight that it does in Vanguards Total US? I wouldn't normally catch it but BRK is a top 10 domestic company by capitalization. What gives?

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by ThreeBears » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:01 am

Is it that bad to pay $7 to $14 a year on trades? That's all i think this will cost me, as I put in my $5,500 once a year and buy in quantities sufficient to roughly balance my portfolio.

If it REALLY bothers me, I guess I'll move to VanGuard. I think my stock-picking days are behind me. I'm basically the worst stock picker i've ever met.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by jhfenton » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:21 am

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:06 am
doingwell wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:43 pm
It is there. It shows up on the third page of holdings at etfdb.com (http://etfdb.com/etf/SPTM/#holdings).
Thanks, interesting that BRK inside State Street's Total US (SPTM) has half the weight that it does in Vanguards Total US? I wouldn't normally catch it but BRK is a top 10 domestic company by capitalization. What gives?
That is interesting. I wonder if the index adjusts BRK by subtracting out the value of its reported ownership of other publicly-traded companies.

It's just a thought. I don't have time to do the math right now.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by deltaneutral83 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:34 pm

ThreeBears wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:01 am
Is it that bad to pay $7 to $14 a year on trades? That's all i think this will cost me, as I put in my $5,500 once a year and buy in quantities sufficient to roughly balance my portfolio.

If it REALLY bothers me, I guess I'll move to VanGuard. I think my stock-picking days are behind me. I'm basically the worst stock picker i've ever met.
TDA offers regular taxable brokerage accounts as well, so folks who make purchases throughout the year from employment, windfall, etc etc it is far more than one or two buys.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by Alskar » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:08 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:51 pm
So when you collect data, please do the math and do not simply restate the price in your statement(s). I think the previous discussion of prices used for re-investment in the link I gave may suffer from the same kind of error.
I used the reinvestment price per share that both Fidelity and TD Ameritrade provide on their online transaction history pages.

I will spend some time to figure out how to post an Excel spreadsheet that shows the reinvestment prices for TD and Fidelity.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:12 pm

Alskar wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:08 pm
livesoft wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:51 pm
So when you collect data, please do the math and do not simply restate the price in your statement(s). I think the previous discussion of prices used for re-investment in the link I gave may suffer from the same kind of error.
I used the reinvestment price per share that both Fidelity and TD Ameritrade provide on their online transaction history pages.
My point was that the reported reinvestment price per share is not correct if you do the math yourself.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by Alskar » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:54 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:12 pm
My point was that the reported reinvestment price per share is not correct if you do the math yourself.
I disagree. Both companies report the dividend received, the number of shares purchased and the reinvestment price on a per share basis. I have no idea where your example came from as I have never seen that information presented as you describe.

My spreadsheet compares the reinvestment price per share as reported by both companies. The amount of the dividend is immaterial to this and no calculation is required. I know this because some of the dividends were quite large and other's where quite small but the reinvestment price was the same for both. Both Fidelity and TD Ameritrade use the average of the price they paid for the reinvested dividends for every client in the DRIP.

Here's how the most recent reinvestment for VCIT looks on my account at Fidelity:

Image
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:15 pm

So you bought 0.026 shares and apparently paid $2.30 for those shares. That means you paid $2.30 / 0.026 for those fractional shares which on a per_share basis is ...



$88.4615 per share and not $87.3259.

I don't see how I can make this any more obvious. The information is not presented; it has to be calculated by you. You paid a 1.3% higher price than what was shown to you.

Here's another calculation: What is 0.026 x $87.3259? I can assure you that it is not $2.30.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by TropikThunder » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:41 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:15 pm
So you bought 0.026 shares and apparently paid $2.30 for those shares. That means you paid $2.30 / 0.026 for those fractional shares which on a per_share basis is ...



$88.4615 per share and not $87.3259.

I don't see how I can make this any more obvious. The information is not presented; it has to be calculated by you. You paid a 1.3% higher price than what was shown to you.

Here's another calculation: What is 0.026 x $87.3259? I can assure you that it is not $2.30.
I've never actually looked it up, but in brokerage records apparently dollar amounts can go to 4 decimal places but share numbers can only go to 3?

*Spolier alert*
$2.30 at $87.3259 = 0.026338...... shares, rounded to 0.026 (the amount of the dividend is known, since the fund declares dividends in $/share). This is the rounding error you referred to.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by Alskar » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:30 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:15 pm
I don't see how I can make this any more obvious. The information is not presented; it has to be calculated by you. You paid a 1.3% higher price than what was shown to you.
Like you, I do not see how I can make this any clearer, but I will try. Both Fidelity and TD Ameritrade publish the reinvestment price per share. Dividing the amount of the dividend in dollars by price per share yields the number of shares.

I agree that a calculation is needed to determine the number of shares one gets by reinvesting, but the price per share and the amount of the dividend are supplied by Fidelity or TD Ameritrade.

My spreadsheet compares the price paid per share of various ETF's (VTI, ITOT, VCIT, etc) in both the Fidelity and TD Ameritrade dividend reinvestment programs. I suspect that the source of the confusion is the source of your data. I got my data from the online transaction history at both brokerage houses, not from statements or summaries. The online transaction history shows the price paid per share. I know this information to be accurate as it is 100% consistent across a number of different accounts held at each brokerage with wildly different number of shares. If the price per share was a calculated number then the account with only 10 shares would have a different cost per share than the account with 10,000 shares, but the price is identical to the forth decimal place.

In any case, I think you're doing the calculation backwards. The total number of shares is the calculated value not the cost per share.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:36 pm

What happens when the number of shares supposedly purchased is 0.02634 and gets rounded down to 0.026 shares? Where did the 0.00034 shares go? How much would 0.00034 shares cost at a price of $87.3259?
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by Alskar » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:53 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:36 pm
What happens when the number of shares supposedly purchased is 0.02634 and gets rounded down to 0.026 shares? Where did the 0.00034 shares go? How much would 0.00034 shares cost at a price of $87.3259?
Here's how I believe it works: The dividends for ETF's are paid in cash. The cash is distributed to the owners of record via the DTC system. The brokerage house takes the cash and buys shares of the ETF that distributed the cash dividend. In the case of the DRIP programs at TD Ameritrade and Fidelity, they average the cost of the shares they purchased to come up with an average share price. Everybody participating in the DRIP program at that brokerage on that date gets the same share price. The number of shares is calculated by dividing the dividend in dollars by the average share price. Since I am only comparing the average share price, there is no rounding error.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:11 pm

It is OK that you believe that there is no rounding error, but that doesn't mean you are not missing 0.00034 shares that you should not be missing.

Perhaps 2, 3, 4, or a dozen more people can confirm what I am writing.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by Alskar » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:16 pm

Here's the comparison I did of the reinvestment price I received at TD Ameritrade and Fidelity for various ETF's. Here are a few caveats:
  1. The dates given are intended to represent the dividend period, not the precise date of the reinvestment. In general, the TD Ameritrade reinvestment occurred at least one day later than Fidelity.
  2. The data provided is deemed to be reliable but I am not guaranteeing that it is correct.
  3. The cells with the green fill are reinvestment prices at TD that were lower than at Fidelity.
  4. The red rectangle marks a particularly huge difference in reinvestment price
  5. I'm not trying to say which DRIP is best. There isn't sufficient data to make any sort of determination.
The fact that the best reinvestment price for VCIT (which pays a monthly dividend) is nearly equally divided between TD and Fidelity could be due to the fact that VCIT, being a corporate bond fund, isn't as volatile or is could be due to the fact that there are just more data points.

The fact that the reinvestment price was generally better at Fidelity could be due to the fact that the Fidelity reinvestment was generally earlier than at TD and since the market has been generally rising Fidelity got a better price or it could be due to some other factors.

I hope this information is useful or at least interesting to some of you. Private message me with a email address if you'd like the actual Excel spreadsheet.

Image
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by Alskar » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:22 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:11 pm
It is OK that you believe that there is no rounding error, but that doesn't mean you are not missing 0.00034 shares that you should not be missing.
Both Fidelity and TD Ameritrade report the average reinvestment price to 6 significant digits. For example 8.72069E10 in dollars. Since I'm only comparing the reinvestment price and the precision of both numbers are the same I do not see why the number of shares is important in a discussion about reinvestment share price. I am not using the number of shares I received in the comparison.

In any case, the differences in the reinvestment prices are not in the 6th digit. They are actually quite a bit larger than I expect. See my posting of the data.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:27 pm

I understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.

But in the end since share prices fluctuate, the only thing that matters with dividend reinvestment to me is the number of shares I get since that's what I will be selling in the future.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by Alskar » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:58 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:27 pm
But in the end since share prices fluctuate, the only thing that matters with dividend reinvestment to me is the number of shares I get since that's what I will be selling in the future.
Agreed! Doesn't minimizing the reinvestment price maximize the number of shares one receives?
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by indexfundfan » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:02 pm

Sorry if this has been covered earlier in this long thread: Did TDAM get rid of the short term trading fee for commission-free ETFs?
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by Raabe34 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:24 pm

For the new list, yes.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:41 pm

indexfundfan wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:02 pm
Sorry if this has been covered earlier in this long thread: Did TDAM get rid of the short term trading fee for commission-free ETFs?
Raabe34 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:24 pm
For the new list, yes.
It is right there on the web site, so I am wondering if I am stupid for posting it here:
PLEASE READ IMPORTANT ADDITIONAL MUTUAL FUND, EXCHANGE-TRADED FUND, AND CLOSED-END FUND RISK DISCLOSURES.

Short-Term Trading Fee (Holding Period for 30 Days). ETFs available commission-free that participate in the ETF Market Center may be subject to a holding period that commences with any purchase and extends through the following THIRTY (30) calendar days. An account owner must hold all shares of an ETF position purchased for a minimum of THIRTY (30) calendar days without selling to avoid a short–term trading fee where applicable. There is no limit to the number of purchases that can be affected in the holding period. Any order to sell within THIRTY (30) calendar days of last purchase (LIFO – Last In, First Out) will cause an account owner's account to be assessed a short–term trading fee of $13.90 where applicable. For the purposes of calculation the day of purchase is considered Day 0. Day 1 begins the day after the date of purchase. The short–term trading fee may be applicable to each purchase of each ETF where such ETF is sold during the holding period. The short–term trading fee may be more than applicable standard commissions on purchases and sells of ETFs that are not commission-free.
Although the text is "may be" and not "will be", but there is also a "will cause", too. :twisted:
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by indexfundfan » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:48 pm

I think I found it. This PDF says "no charge".

https://www.tdameritrade.com/retail-en_ ... PS1009.pdf
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by arsenal_fan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:08 pm

Apologies, but this thread has gotten a little hard to follow. Could anyone recommend any stocks/ETFs worth purchasing from TDAmeritrade by selling off shares of the vanguard bond fund I own viz. BND?

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by TIAX » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:53 am

arsenal_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:08 pm
Apologies, but this thread has gotten a little hard to follow. Could anyone recommend any stocks/ETFs worth purchasing from TDAmeritrade by selling off shares of the vanguard bond fund I own viz. BND?
Since it's past the deadline to trade BND commission-free, there's no reason to sell it but you can buy SPAB if you'd like more bonds.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:44 am

I'll just mention something stupid about the SPDRS/SSGA ETFs that I see right now:

VTI and SPTM are supposedly total US Stock Market ETFs. So why are VTI and SPTM trading so differently? And why are there executions for SPTM relatively well outside the bid/ask spread? That's great if you are on the right side of those executions, but not so great if you are on the wrong side.

Or is it just bad data for SPTM being thrown up in my face?
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by bargainhuntingking » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:32 pm

arsenal_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:08 pm
Apologies, but this thread has gotten a little hard to follow. Could anyone recommend any stocks/ETFs worth purchasing from TDAmeritrade by selling off shares of the vanguard bond fund I own viz. BND?
A while back I looked at my TDA ETFs and picked rough equivalents from their new selection. This may help you. My research was not exhaustive however. These are my choices:

Old ETFs >>> New Equivalents >>> (notes)

Total bond BND >>> SPAB
Intermediate government bond VGIT >>> ITE or ILTB or GOVT
Total US stock VTI >>> SPTM
Total International Stock VEU >>> SPDW (developed international only, add SPEM for EM)
Small Cap Value VBR >>> SLYV
Emerging Markets VWO >>> SPEM
International Small Stock VSS >>> GWX (But GWX ER is higher at 0.4. Worth it?)
REITS VNQ >>> USRT (Will likely add the international REET too.)

I prefer to overweight my fixed assets with intermediate treasuries and have 4 equity tilts (REIT, SCV, Int small, EM). The new TDA selection is adequate for this. ERs with one exception (GWX) are lower and the low cost international REIT (REET) is a nice addition to the commission free ETF list.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:43 pm

^Others to consider are DLS, DGS, and SPSB.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by indexfundfan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:40 pm

livesoft wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:44 am
I'll just mention something stupid about the SPDRS/SSGA ETFs that I see right now:

VTI and SPTM are supposedly total US Stock Market ETFs. So why are VTI and SPTM trading so differently? And why are there executions for SPTM relatively well outside the bid/ask spread? That's great if you are on the right side of those executions, but not so great if you are on the wrong side.

Or is it just bad data for SPTM being thrown up in my face?
I did notice that the spreads on VTI and SCHB were wider than usual this morning. Didn't look at SPTM.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:01 pm

^I think there was a data problem since some sites are showing intraday charts with about an hour of data in the morning missing. Now I have to wonder if triceratop was re-enacting The Sting on me.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by billy269 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:18 am

livesoft wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:44 am
I'll just mention something stupid about the SPDRS/SSGA ETFs that I see right now:

VTI and SPTM are supposedly total US Stock Market ETFs. So why are VTI and SPTM trading so differently? And why are there executions for SPTM relatively well outside the bid/ask spread? That's great if you are on the right side of those executions, but not so great if you are on the wrong side.

Or is it just bad data for SPTM being thrown up in my face?
I just calculated since I swapped VTI for SPTM on 11/17, SPTM is down .2% compared to VTI. That is $200 for every 100k invested. I have been more impressed with the international options (spdw and spem), but I am going to transfer to Merrill Edge tomorrow. Tired of not having access to VTI commission free and having such lame options.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by deltaneutral83 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:44 am

billy269 wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:18 am
livesoft wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:44 am
I'll just mention something stupid about the SPDRS/SSGA ETFs that I see right now:

VTI and SPTM are supposedly total US Stock Market ETFs. So why are VTI and SPTM trading so differently? And why are there executions for SPTM relatively well outside the bid/ask spread? That's great if you are on the right side of those executions, but not so great if you are on the wrong side.

Or is it just bad data for SPTM being thrown up in my face?
I just calculated since I swapped VTI for SPTM on 11/17, SPTM is down .2% compared to VTI. That is $200 for every 100k invested. I have been more impressed with the international options (spdw and spem), but I am going to transfer to Merrill Edge tomorrow. Tired of not having access to VTI commission free and having such lame options.
I made the same move to ME in early Nov except for my HSA which is at TDA. In fact, I posted this in another thread, but it looked like SPTM trailed VTI by 70 bps yesterday alone as VTI was up 1.62% and SPTM was up 0.91%. So I certainly do not know what to make of that, could have just been inaccurate reporting or I misread it as I am incredulous that two nearly identical indexes that have decent liquidity could be 70 bps apart in one day??

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 am

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:44 am
I made the same move to ME in early Nov except for my HSA which is at TDA. In fact, I posted this in another thread, but it looked like SPTM trailed VTI by 70 bps yesterday alone as VTI was up 1.62% and SPTM was up 0.91%. So I certainly do not know what to make of that, could have just been inaccurate reporting or I misread it as I am incredulous that two nearly identical indexes that have decent liquidity could be 70 bps apart in one day??
I think the problem was the day before, so looking at the one-day change yesterday was not informative.

Nevertheless, information flow on these ETFs is fraught with sketchiness. I purchased shares of SPTM yesterday (up 2% thank you), but I was so weirded out by what I was seeing that I took 5 screen captures of the data being presented because it didn't make any sense to me. I think between about 10:10 am and 11:00 am that incorrect bid/ask quotes were being reported to some investors. And imagine what kind of limit orders one would submit if one was shown wrong bid/ask quotes. And who knows what computer programs that do algorithmic trading would do with such bogus data.

finance.yahoo.com has a gap in intraday charts for 2/6/2018 from about 10:10 to 11:18 on all the ETFs I looked at. morningstar.com does not have such gaps.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by TIAX » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:54 am

livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 am
Nevertheless, information flow on these ETFs is fraught with sketchiness. I purchased shares of SPTM yesterday (up 2% thank you), but I was so weirded out by what I was seeing that I took 5 screen captures of the data being presented because it didn't make any sense to me. I think between about 10:10 am and 11:00 am that incorrect bid/ask quotes were being reported to some investors. And imagine what kind of limit orders one would submit if one was shown wrong bid/ask quotes. And who knows what computer programs that do algorithmic trading would do with such bogus data.

finance.yahoo.com has a gap in intraday charts for 2/6/2018 from about 10:10 to 11:18 on all the ETFs I looked at. morningstar.com does not have such gaps.
Is this SSGAs fault?

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by jhfenton » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:10 am

livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 am
finance.yahoo.com has a gap in intraday charts for 2/6/2018 from about 10:10 to 11:18 on all the ETFs I looked at. morningstar.com does not have such gaps.
I had finance.yahoo.com open then with my watch list of ETFs, and no prices were updated during that period. I had to open TD Ameritrade, where I have basically the same watch list, to see how things were doing.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:14 am

TIAX wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:54 am
Is this SSGAs fault?
I don't know, but SSGA should want to make sure that information about their ETFs is accurately disseminated in a timely fashion. The other day I sent them an e-mail about their web site and they changed their web site the next day to make things more obvious, so they are responsive to feedback in my experience.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by triceratop » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:20 am

livesoft wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:01 pm
^I think there was a data problem since some sites are showing intraday charts with about an hour of data in the morning missing. Now I have to wonder if triceratop was re-enacting The Sting on me.
Place your bets on SPTM ;)

SPTM and VTI seem to be behaving reasonably this morning. One nice thing about ETFs is that one doesn't have to trade in volatile markets if one does not want to.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by TIAX » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:49 am

livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:14 am
TIAX wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:54 am
Is this SSGAs fault?
I don't know, but SSGA should want to make sure that information about their ETFs is accurately disseminated in a timely fashion. The other day I sent them an e-mail about their web site and they changed their web site the next day to make things more obvious, so they are responsive to feedback in my experience.
Since you have such a great relationship with SSGA, perhaps you can mention this issue as well :happy. On a related note, it's pretty annoying that SPTM is still not at a 1 cent spread.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by triceratop » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:03 am

livesoft should point out it is a bug in their brokerage platform that SPTM is not always crossed. I would love someone to say "Oh, right." and then actually fix that.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:24 am

TIAX wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:49 am
Since you have such a great relationship with SSGA, perhaps you can mention this issue as well :happy. On a related note, it's pretty annoying that SPTM is still not at a 1 cent spread.
Anybody can send them feedback. There is a place to click right there on their web site. You could be their best bud by sending them feedback, too.
https://us.spdrs.com/en/etf/spdr-portfo ... t-etf-SPTM
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by TIAX » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:38 am

livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:24 am
TIAX wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:49 am
Since you have such a great relationship with SSGA, perhaps you can mention this issue as well :happy. On a related note, it's pretty annoying that SPTM is still not at a 1 cent spread.
Anybody can send them feedback. There is a place to click right there on their web site. You could be their best bud by sending them feedback, too.
https://us.spdrs.com/en/etf/spdr-portfo ... t-etf-SPTM
But I think they want to see your screenshots.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by billy269 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:38 pm

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:44 am
billy269 wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:18 am
livesoft wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:44 am
I'll just mention something stupid about the SPDRS/SSGA ETFs that I see right now:

VTI and SPTM are supposedly total US Stock Market ETFs. So why are VTI and SPTM trading so differently? And why are there executions for SPTM relatively well outside the bid/ask spread? That's great if you are on the right side of those executions, but not so great if you are on the wrong side.

Or is it just bad data for SPTM being thrown up in my face?
I just calculated since I swapped VTI for SPTM on 11/17, SPTM is down .2% compared to VTI. That is $200 for every 100k invested. I have been more impressed with the international options (spdw and spem), but I am going to transfer to Merrill Edge tomorrow. Tired of not having access to VTI commission free and having such lame options.
I made the same move to ME in early Nov except for my HSA which is at TDA. In fact, I posted this in another thread, but it looked like SPTM trailed VTI by 70 bps yesterday alone as VTI was up 1.62% and SPTM was up 0.91%. So I certainly do not know what to make of that, could have just been inaccurate reporting or I misread it as I am incredulous that two nearly identical indexes that have decent liquidity could be 70 bps apart in one day??
I took a screenshot of the day before (Monday) and VTI was down 4.03% and SPTM was only down 3.17%. So I guess yesterday was a "make-up day" for the day before? Comparing the two etfs daily doesn't seem to work very well. You are best comparing the prices from the date you purchased them, but then you have to figure dividends into the equation too... As I said, I am tired of worrying about it with my retirement accounts and am switching to Edge today so I can buy VTI and be done with thinking about SPTM.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by wander » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:43 am

Not nice, they trap me into free Vanguard ETFs and now charge when I sell them. They should have advertised "50% discount".

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:57 am

wander wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:43 am
Not nice, they trap me into free Vanguard ETFs and now charge when I sell them. They should have advertised "50% discount".
They are very nice to me because when I ask them for free trades, they give them to me. So I am not charged to sell Vanguard ETFs.

Did you not ask? Did they refuse to grant your wish?

In other news, I have been buying SPTM, SPSM, SPAB, and SPSB and see that

1. They are not that liquid. Spreads are about 4 times higher than for corresponding Vanguard ETFs.

2. Information at morningstar.com on them is not readily available.

3. Real-time level II quotes and transactions seem to be delayed sometimes.

4. The market makers are not always awake.

5. Even though many other trades appear to have occurred at one's limit prices, one's limit orders often expire at the end of the day. This confirms the liquidity problem.

6. The SPDRS web site people respond quickly to feedback and make web site changes.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by wander » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:00 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:57 am
Did you not ask? Did they refuse to grant your wish?
No, I have not sold share yet, but it seems paying is inevitable.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by TIAX » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:53 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:57 am
4. The market makers are not always awake.
Can you explain.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:50 am

TIAX wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:53 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:57 am
4. The market makers are not always awake.
Can you explain.
I routinely have limit orders in these SPDR ETFs go unfilled even though I see hundreds and thousands of shares traded at exactly my limit price. It is rather annoying. That was very rarely the case with Vanguard ETFs.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by lazyday » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 am

I've wondered if Vanguard's no profit structure even affects things like ETF trading. Vanguard might have smaller fees or friendlier policies for creating and redeeming ETF shares, and who knows, maybe they even work with market makers and arbs that don't take as large of a slice?

I'm not sure I've noticed better price improvement when trading Vanguard vs Schwab ETFs. Though I haven't kept track. I haven't compared premium/discount, since if the funds are similar I always choose Vanguard. That is, the Schwab ETFs I trade have no Vanguard equivalent.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by TIAX » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:25 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:50 am
TIAX wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:53 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:57 am
4. The market makers are not always awake.
Can you explain.
I routinely have limit orders in these SPDR ETFs go unfilled even though I see hundreds and thousands of shares traded at exactly my limit price. It is rather annoying. That was very rarely the case with Vanguard ETFs.
I see and why is this happening?

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by ftobin » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:19 am

TIAX wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:25 pm
I routinely have limit orders in these SPDR ETFs go unfilled even though I see hundreds and thousands of shares traded at exactly my limit price. It is rather annoying. That was very rarely the case with Vanguard ETFs.
I see and why is this happening?
Probably a combination of two things:
  • Your broker is putting your limit order on a high-cost-to-take venue, so you're likely to be the last one to get hit nationally.
  • Other brokers are internalizing SPDR flow more than the Vanguard flow because of the wider spreads (wide-spreads == more profit).
Last edited by ftobin on Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

Post by livesoft » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:01 am

@ftobin, thanks, I would have said it a different way but meant the same thing, so your wording is much better than I would have done. Thanks.
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