Fellow TDA bogleheads [TDA dropping Vanguard ETFs from commission-free list]

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avalpert
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by avalpert » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:50 am

jhfenton wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:45 am
deltaneutral83 wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:43 am
So how much longer will VTI be traded commission free on TDA, or is it a already over?
It should be at least 30 days from when they make the change official.
Right, I'm going to call them later today to confirm.

lazyday
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by lazyday » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:52 am

jhfenton wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:23 am
lazyday wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:52 am
There's several SPDR® Portfolio funds.
The SPDR® Portfolio site is currently "down for maintenance." :?
Up for me at the moment. Here's a list, though I didn't check if all are free at TDA: https://us.spdrs.com/en/strategies/spdr ... folio-etfs

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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:04 am

lazyday wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:52 am
jhfenton wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:23 am
lazyday wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:52 am
There's several SPDR® Portfolio funds.
The SPDR® Portfolio site is currently "down for maintenance." :?
Up for me at the moment. Here's a list, though I didn't check if all are free at TDA: https://us.spdrs.com/en/strategies/spdr ... folio-etfs
It is back up now for me as well. According to the press release I linked, all the SPDR Portfolio ETFs are commission-free at TD Ameritrade now.

They're missing equivalents for VSS--there is no equivalent to VSS--and VBR, but it's not a bad list. (SLYV at 15 bp is a reasonable choice to replace VBR, but it's not on the SPDR Portfolio list, and it's not quite as cheap as VBR's 7 bp.)

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by indexfundfan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:25 am

livesoft wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:16 am
It looks like I'll be transferring assets in-kind out of TDAmeritrade. They have one ETF on the list that has an Average Daily Volume of 57. That's not 5700, it is fifty-seven shares.
Yup. It's almost two hours into the trading day and so far 106 shares of SPTM have traded.
But market makers are working hard to make it look good. The spread is 1 cent : bid 31.75, ask 31.76.
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by drk » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:28 am

avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:49 am
It really doesn't look that bad at all. The new State Street portfolio funds are added low cost competition - that is a good thing - and seem to cover all the broad categories.

Of my core funds, the only one that I currently buy there with no commission that I don't see a great replacement for me is VOE - but overall, this list isn't bad.
It looks like the compelling State Street offerings are also effectively new funds: they're changing their tickers and tracking indices today. Offering ultra-low-cost ETFs with tiny average daily volumes does not make up for removing low-cost ETFs with some of the highest volumes in the market. This is exactly why my assets are not with Schwab.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by indexfundfan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:38 am

drk wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:28 am
avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:49 am
It really doesn't look that bad at all. The new State Street portfolio funds are added low cost competition - that is a good thing - and seem to cover all the broad categories.

Of my core funds, the only one that I currently buy there with no commission that I don't see a great replacement for me is VOE - but overall, this list isn't bad.
It looks like the compelling State Street offerings are also effectively new funds: they're changing their tickers and tracking indices today. Offering ultra-low-cost ETFs with tiny average daily volumes does not make up for removing low-cost ETFs with some of the highest volumes in the market. This is exactly why my assets are not with Schwab.
I guess the deal for State Street is that so far, they have failed to generate much interest in their "portfolio" ETFs and break into Vanguard and iShares' hold in this segment. So there's very little to lose by paying some kick back to TDAM to try to generate interest.

The risk for investors who invest in these funds is whether these funds would fold. It's OK if this happens for a tax-deferred account but there could be severe tax consequences if these funds are liquidated for a taxable account. Accordingly, I would be very cautious about using these thinly traded or low-AUM ETFs in a taxable account (at least for now).
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avalpert
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by avalpert » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:38 am

drk wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:28 am
avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:49 am
It really doesn't look that bad at all. The new State Street portfolio funds are added low cost competition - that is a good thing - and seem to cover all the broad categories.

Of my core funds, the only one that I currently buy there with no commission that I don't see a great replacement for me is VOE - but overall, this list isn't bad.
It looks like the compelling State Street offerings are also effectively new funds: they're changing their tickers and tracking indices today. Offering ultra-low-cost ETFs with tiny average daily volumes does not make up for removing low-cost ETFs with some of the highest volumes in the market. This is exactly why my assets are not with Schwab.
Yeah, yeah, change is hard and providers should avoid it because it makes me feel uneasy.

Would I prefer TDA offer their current free-ETFs and the new ones, and heck all of them, sure. Is it possible that State Street falls on its face in their attempt to play in the low cost space, maybe though I wouldn't bet against them. But can you look at that list and say TDA is not providing commission free access to low cost index funds, nope.

What I see here is a clear indication that competition in the space is driving providers to offer low cost funds alongside specialized offerings - that is an overall good thing, an indicator that the boglehead mentality is winning in the marketplace and bodes well for the future. The volume will come for these ETFs and Vanguard will have competition to keep it on its toes.

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by cjackson0 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:50 am

Press release and full list of ETFs:

https://s1.q4cdn.com/959385532/files/do ... rogram.pdf
Sent from my iphone

stlutz
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by stlutz » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:03 am

Watch the trading spreads on some of these SPDR ETFs. For example, THRK (the total market ETF) currently trades with a spread of .15%. VTI is .01%; ITOT and SCHB are at .03%.

High spreads and capital gain distributions have been an issues with State Street ETFs in the past.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Outafter20 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:07 am

stlutz wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:03 am
Watch the trading spreads on some of these SPDR ETFs. For example, THRK (the total market ETF) currently trades with a spread of .15%. VTI is .01%; ITOT and SCHB are at .03%.

High spreads and capital gain distributions have been an issues with State Street ETFs in the past.
Is this because they are so thinly traded?

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serbeer
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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by serbeer » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:08 am

Wow, that would be very very disappointing indeed. I hope they are at the very least keep comission-free the sale of currently owned Vanguard securities that were bought comission-free. I always hated that they had VGK comission-free but not VPL--as these are two sides of the same coin IMO and usually used in tandem but now it is even worse.

I currently also use VEA, VB, VWO, BND, VNQ and to the lesser degree VBR, VOE. I, of course, have TLH pairs for those, but some of them are also Vanguard, and fo one I don't even have a good pair:

VEA -- VEU, VGK+VPL (All Vanguards!)
VB -- IJR (this one is probably OK since VB now has nearly half of mid-caps, so I was becoming reluctant to use it anyway)
VWO -- don't have comission-free TLH alternative currently!
BND -- AGG
VNQ -- RWR
VBR -- IJS
VOE -- IWS

What do you have, if you are Ameritrade comission-free ETF indexer? I know from previous discussions there are many of us on this board.

Perhaps if they enlarge the list of comission-free ETFs, there will be other ultra-low cost comission-free ETF alternatives, hopefully from Shwab for example, I was really missing those. The truth is, Ameritrace lowering their comissions recently did not have nearly as much impact on my portfolio as this change.

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:31 am

There's another thread with an ongoing discussion:

viewtopic.php?p=3575105#p3575105

The closest equivalent to the departing Vanguard funds is the newly-minted lineup of SPDR Portfolio funds.

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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:32 am

I wouldn't touch these new SPDR Portfolio funds in a taxable account, but I'd be OK with them in a tax-advantaged account, including my new Lively-TD Ameritrade HSA.

I expect assets and liquidity will improve for most of the funds.

Edited to add: Some of them I wouldn't touch until I actually saw some improvement, but GMM -> SPEM (SPDR Portfolio Emerging Markets) somehow already had $577MM in assets at an ER of 0.59%. At 0.11%, now the lowest in the segment, it will grow fast. It should perform very much in line with VWO (other than VWO's China A Shares).

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by nisiprius » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:47 am

(Shrug) I don't know what goes on behind the scenes to make ETFs commission-free or mutual funds "no transaction fee" at a brokerage. For mutual funds, I think the fund company pays the brokerage a kickback fee of some kind. I doubt that Vanguard is willing to do this. Anyway, commission-free ETFs are some kind of marketing tool, perhaps even a loss leader.

I remember Fidelity did a big revamp of their iShares commission-free line-up a few years ago, added more than they dropped but dropped a number of seemingly-perfectly-good ones.

One reason I have an account at Vanguard is that I personally do have a mild brand preference for Vanguard funds and ETFs, and I'm confident that Vanguard will give me long-term consistently good terms on buying Vanguard mutual funds (particularly Admiral shares) and ETFs. Anywhere else, it is what it is. If you don't have a strong attachment to the Vanguard brand, well... you will either pay a commission or have to settle for Pepsi ETFs instead of Coke ETFs.
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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by John Laurens » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:13 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:47 am
(Shrug) I don't know what goes on behind the scenes to make ETFs commission-free or mutual funds "no transaction fee" at a brokerage. For mutual funds, I think the fund company pays the brokerage a kickback fee of some kind. I doubt that Vanguard is willing to do this. Anyway, commission-free ETFs are some kind of marketing tool, perhaps even a loss leader.

I remember Fidelity did a big revamp of their iShares commission-free line-up a few years ago, added more than they dropped but dropped a number of seemingly-perfectly-good ones.

One reason I have an account at Vanguard is that I personally do have a mild brand preference for Vanguard funds and ETFs, and I'm confident that Vanguard will give me long-term consistently good terms on buying Vanguard mutual funds (particularly Admiral shares) and ETFs. Anywhere else, it is what it is. If you don't have a strong attachment to the Vanguard brand, well... you will either pay a commission or have to settle for Pepsi ETFs instead of Coke ETFs.
Not necessarily true. Vanguard will not give you etfs or admiral shares in all accounts. I have 7 figure solo 401k. They will not let me purchase a million dollars of VTSAX or even one share of VTI.

Regards,
John

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by triceratop » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:13 pm

I merged MFInvestor's thread "TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall" into this one (the system orders posts by time).
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jlgrandam
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jlgrandam » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:15 pm

Looks like this will get me to finally open an account at Vanguard directly. Too bad, I liked TDA for all other aspects.

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by JustinR » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:35 pm

cjackson0 wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:50 am
Press release and full list of ETFs:

https://s1.q4cdn.com/959385532/files/do ... rogram.pdf
What's the best equivalent for VGIT?

I have that in my HSA so that I have to pay minimal state taxes, since CA doesn't recognize HSAs.

Looking for a commission-free bond fund with highest government obligations so I can pay the least state taxes.

Scanning the list, I don't see anything similar :(

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by bondsr4me » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:40 pm

jlgrandam wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:15 pm
Looks like this will get me to finally open an account at Vanguard directly. Too bad, I liked TDA for all other aspects.
I agree about TDA, their website and tools are very good.
I do personally feel TDA is geared primarily towards traders.
They have lots of trading stuff which makes it very tempting to try to trade the markets.
I am not being critical of TDA; their website and trading tools are top notch.
VG’s website is very plain, no real trading tools, geared to “investors” IMHO.
Have a great week BH’ers.
Don

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:42 pm

JustinR wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:35 pm
cjackson0 wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:50 am
Press release and full list of ETFs:

https://s1.q4cdn.com/959385532/files/do ... rogram.pdf
What's the best equivalent for VGIT?

I have that in my HSA so that I have to pay minimal state taxes, since CA doesn't recognize HSAs.

Looking for a commission-free bond fund with highest government obligations so I can pay the least state taxes.

Scanning the list, I don't see anything similar :(
Probably ITE (SPDR Bloomberg Barclays Intermediate Term Treasury ETF) at 10 bp. It's a 1-10 year treasury fund rather than a 3-10, but it's similar to VGIT.

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by GuineaPig » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:53 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:42 pm
Probably ITE (SPDR Bloomberg Barclays Intermediate Term Treasury ETF) at 10 bp. It's a 1-10 year treasury fund rather than a 3-10, but it's similar to VGIT.
Yep, I'm in the exact same boat: HSA in CA. If you look at the PDF, search for "Treasury" or "TIPS" and any of those will avoid having to fuss with state taxes, at least as I understand it. I already have a lot of inflation-protected bonds, so I am looking for an intermediate-term Treasury ETF.

With the previous selection of ETFs, I had planned to get IEI, the iShares 3-7 year intermediate-term Treasury ETF. However, that one is not on the new list. ITE is State Street's 1-10 year intermediate-term Treasury ETF and is the closest equivalent. I think it'll do the trick.

There are also long-term and short-term Treasury options, as well as GOVT, which is the iShares 1-30 years total Treasury ETF. However, my understanding is that unless you are really planning to hold bonds for a long time, it is best to stick with short- and intermediate-term, even if they're paying less interest.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by investor997 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:05 pm

Bummer.

I'm with Scottrade for the time being. The guy at my local branch had been feeding me free trades (so I can buy VTI, etc) until the deal with TDA closed. Now I'm not sure what to do. I'm not comfortable with these new State Street ETFs (yet).

Option A: Move my account to Fidelity
Pros: It's Fidelity and they offer the right iShares ETFs commission free (ie, ITOT, IXUS..).
Cons: Who's to say Fidelity might not drop these iShares ETFs from their commish-free list some day? Also, no "cool" account transfer bonuses at present.

Option B: Move my account to Schwab
Pros: Schwab has a "Move from Scottrade" promo. I can trade commission free there for as many years as I've been a Scottrade client. For me, this would be almost 15 years. I can trade all the Vanguard ETFs I want for free, damned near forever. And even if I can't, they have SCHB/SCHF/etc commission free.
Cons: Not sure if there are any.

Can't really do anything right away anyway as I'd be on the hook for a $300 account transfer bonus Scottrade paid me earlier this year...

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by JustinR » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:10 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:42 pm
Probably ITE (SPDR Bloomberg Barclays Intermediate Term Treasury ETF) at 10 bp. It's a 1-10 year treasury fund rather than a 3-10, but it's similar to VGIT.
GuineaPig wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:53 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:42 pm
Probably ITE (SPDR Bloomberg Barclays Intermediate Term Treasury ETF) at 10 bp. It's a 1-10 year treasury fund rather than a 3-10, but it's similar to VGIT.
Yep, I'm in the exact same boat: HSA in CA. If you look at the PDF, search for "Treasury" or "TIPS" and any of those will avoid having to fuss with state taxes, at least as I understand it. I already have a lot of inflation-protected bonds, so I am looking for an intermediate-term Treasury ETF.

With the previous selection of ETFs, I had planned to get IEI, the iShares 3-7 year intermediate-term Treasury ETF. However, that one is not on the new list. ITE is State Street's 1-10 year intermediate-term Treasury ETF and is the closest equivalent. I think it'll do the trick.

There are also long-term and short-term Treasury options, as well as GOVT, which is the iShares 1-30 years total Treasury ETF. However, my understanding is that unless you are really planning to hold bonds for a long time, it is best to stick with short- and intermediate-term, even if they're paying less interest.
Thank you!

I just noticed that the returns on these (and VGIT) are depressingly low. What do you think about this fund, with a lower ER and higher returns? SPTL (SPDR Portfolio Long Term Treasury ETF)

ITE for comparison: https://us.spdrs.com/en/etf/spdr-bloomb ... ry-etf-ITE

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:19 pm

JustinR wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:10 pm
I just noticed that the returns on these (and VGIT) are depressingly low. What do you think about this fund, with a lower ER and higher returns? SPTL (SPDR Portfolio Long Term Treasury ETF)

ITE for comparison: https://us.spdrs.com/en/etf/spdr-bloomb ... ry-etf-ITE
I wouldn't consider that fund anywhere other than a California HSA. For a California HSA, I would at least consider it for a small portion of my HSA. I'd also look at a very tax-friendly equity index fund. I'd probably pay a commission to buy a Vanguard ETF like VTI and plan to hold it forever, or until I retired and moved out of Cali. Paying a $6.95 commission once a year to buy VTI would be palatable.

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by GuineaPig » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:38 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:19 pm
JustinR wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:10 pm
I just noticed that the returns on these (and VGIT) are depressingly low. What do you think about this fund, with a lower ER and higher returns? SPTL (SPDR Portfolio Long Term Treasury ETF)

ITE for comparison: https://us.spdrs.com/en/etf/spdr-bloomb ... ry-etf-ITE
I wouldn't consider that fund anywhere other than a California HSA. For a California HSA, I would at least consider it for a small portion of my HSA. I'd also look at a very tax-friendly equity index fund. I'd probably pay a commission to buy a Vanguard ETF like VTI and plan to hold it forever, or until I retired and moved out of Cali. Paying a $6.95 commission once a year to buy VTI would be palatable.
We are taking this thread a bit off track, but I want to point JustinR to a couple of existing threads that might help understand intermediate-term vs long-term bonds. There are many other threads on the topic as well and I confess that I don't fully understand:
viewtopic.php?t=211655
viewtopic.php?t=182877

As for a CA HSA, my feeling is that I'd rather have the Treasury bond fund and avoid extra paperwork. I can always just rebalance my tIRA and sell some of my bonds there to get more total market exposure. Two reasons: 1) Simplicity and less paperwork related to the HSA. 2) There is always a chance that an HSA provider could close or sell its accounts to another HSA provider. In that case, they might liquidate the holdings to do a cash trustee-to-trustee rollover. And yes, there could be significant capital gains for CA accounts. And if you think that sounds unlikely, it's not: Alliant Credit Union recently did exactly this and there was a post here from somebody who was going to have to pay significant CA capital gains taxes. And yes, I just switched HSA providers from Alliant (though I had my entire HSA in cash, not invested, and so didn't have the capital gains problem).

Anyway, JustinR: I'd recommend starting a new thread at this point, since really this thread is more about changes in TD Ameritrade and less about CA HSA issues or choosing between intermediate and long-term bond funds.

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:18 pm

John Laurens wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:13 pm
Not necessarily true. Vanguard will not give you etfs or admiral shares in all accounts. I have 7 figure solo 401k. They will not let me purchase a million dollars of VTSAX or even one share of VTI.
Raising the question, "why do you stay?"
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by nps » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:04 pm

I have both Vanguard ETFs and non-Vanguard ETFs at TD. If I transfer out all of my Vanguard ETF positions in-kind while maintaining my positions in the other non-Vanguard funds, does TD consider this a partial transfer (free) or a full transfer ($75 fee)?

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Whakamole » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:06 pm

nps wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:04 pm
I have both Vanguard ETFs and non-Vanguard ETFs at TD. If I transfer out all of my Vanguard ETF positions in-kind while maintaining my positions in the other non-Vanguard funds, does TD consider this a partial transfer (free) or a full transfer ($75 fee)?
That should be considered a partial transfer since the account will still have positions.

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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by John Laurens » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:20 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:18 pm
John Laurens wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:13 pm
Not necessarily true. Vanguard will not give you etfs or admiral shares in all accounts. I have 7 figure solo 401k. They will not let me purchase a million dollars of VTSAX or even one share of VTI.
Raising the question, "why do you stay?"
That is why I am not a customer of Vanguard. I have my accounts at TDA and purchase Vanguard ETFs commission free. Well at least for a couple more weeks.

Regards,
John

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by angelescrest » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:18 pm

This is disappointing, but am I the only one who will stay? How often are you buying/selling/rebalancing? I do it a couple times a year, and at $7 a trade, this isn’t too bad.

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Daryl » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:58 pm

angelescrest wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:18 pm
This is disappointing, but am I the only one who will stay? How often are you buying/selling/rebalancing? I do it a couple times a year, and at $7 a trade, this isn’t too bad.
Probably about a dozen trades. About every other month I have enough in my HSA or IRA to add a couple extra shares. I hate having idol cash!

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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by avalpert » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:59 pm

angelescrest wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:18 pm
This is disappointing, but am I the only one who will stay? How often are you buying/selling/rebalancing? I do it a couple times a year, and at $7 a trade, this isn’t too bad.
I doubt I'd pull all my accounts out, there are viable options on the new free list for most of my core investments and I prefer their account management and trading platforms and have found that I get better execution from them on market orders than I do at Merrill Edge.

skylar
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by skylar » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:26 pm

Currently I have most of my HSA at TDA invested in the Vanguard Total Bond Market Index ETF (BND). Is there an equivalent to BND in the new ETF lineup? I took a glance and couldn't identify any based on name; the ones that seem sort of close also have exciting things in the name that turn me off ("enhanced", "hedged") when I really just want a totally boring total bond market fund.

If not, I guess I'll be hunting for another HSA provider and will be curious to hear what other people turn to.

avalpert
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by avalpert » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:31 pm

skylar wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:26 pm
Currently I have most of my HSA at TDA invested in the Vanguard Total Bond Market Index ETF (BND). Is there an equivalent to BND in the new ETF lineup? I took a glance and couldn't identify any based on name; the ones that seem sort of close also have exciting things in the name that turn me off ("enhanced", "hedged") when I really just want a totally boring total bond market fund.

If not, I guess I'll be hunting for another HSA provider and will be curious to hear what other people turn to.
SPAB (used to be BNDS) tracks the same index I believe, and now at a lower ER.

skylar
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by skylar » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:37 pm

avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:31 pm
skylar wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:26 pm
Currently I have most of my HSA at TDA invested in the Vanguard Total Bond Market Index ETF (BND). Is there an equivalent to BND in the new ETF lineup? I took a glance and couldn't identify any based on name; the ones that seem sort of close also have exciting things in the name that turn me off ("enhanced", "hedged") when I really just want a totally boring total bond market fund.

If not, I guess I'll be hunting for another HSA provider and will be curious to hear what other people turn to.
SPAB (used to be BNDS) tracks the same index I believe, and now at a lower ER.
Thanks for the quick reply! I think SPAB could be an option, though do I need to be concerned about the much lower trading volume versus BND? I'm not an expert on ETFs but it seems like that could be an issue.

Another option I've discovered is my employer's HSA provider (HealthEquity) apparently now offers institutional shares of Vanguard mutual funds (not ETFs). When I started with HealthEquity, they had awful investments and I've just been transferring to HSA Bank/TDA a couple times a year, but maybe I don't have to do that anymore...

drk
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by drk » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:33 pm

avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:38 am
drk wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:28 am
avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:49 am
It really doesn't look that bad at all. The new State Street portfolio funds are added low cost competition - that is a good thing - and seem to cover all the broad categories.

Of my core funds, the only one that I currently buy there with no commission that I don't see a great replacement for me is VOE - but overall, this list isn't bad.
It looks like the compelling State Street offerings are also effectively new funds: they're changing their tickers and tracking indices today. Offering ultra-low-cost ETFs with tiny average daily volumes does not make up for removing low-cost ETFs with some of the highest volumes in the market. This is exactly why my assets are not with Schwab.
Yeah, yeah, change is hard and providers should avoid it because it makes me feel uneasy.

Would I prefer TDA offer their current free-ETFs and the new ones, and heck all of them, sure. Is it possible that State Street falls on its face in their attempt to play in the low cost space, maybe though I wouldn't bet against them. But can you look at that list and say TDA is not providing commission free access to low cost index funds, nope.

What I see here is a clear indication that competition in the space is driving providers to offer low cost funds alongside specialized offerings - that is an overall good thing, an indicator that the boglehead mentality is winning in the marketplace and bodes well for the future. The volume will come for these ETFs and Vanguard will have competition to keep it on its toes.
Spare me the sarcasm. I only recently moved my taxable assets over to TDA, and the list of commission-free ETFs was central to that decision. As far as I'm concerned, this is a bait-and-switch. What I see here is that State Street realized that they were losing out to Vanguard, BlackRock, and even Schwab, so they found a major custodian that would sell off its customers as a new source of AUM.

centrifuge41
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by centrifuge41 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:34 pm

Please reference the wiki and feel free to make updates if you gather any other findings.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:48 pm

nps wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:04 pm
I have both Vanguard ETFs and non-Vanguard ETFs at TD. If I transfer out all of my Vanguard ETF positions in-kind while maintaining my positions in the other non-Vanguard funds, does TD consider this a partial transfer (free) or a full transfer ($75 fee)?
A full transfer would be all assets and cash, after which they close the account.
This week's fortune cookie: "You will do well to expand your horizons." Ow. Passive-aggressive and vaguely ominous.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:49 pm

angelescrest wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:18 pm
This is disappointing, but am I the only one who will stay? How often are you buying/selling/rebalancing? I do it a couple times a year, and at $7 a trade, this isn’t too bad.
Oh, as long as they still give bonuses, I will use them. I just won't buy anything there.
This week's fortune cookie: "You will do well to expand your horizons." Ow. Passive-aggressive and vaguely ominous.

greenhill
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by greenhill » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:40 am

I am a NRA so I can't open a brokerage account at Vanguard. The new list is frustrating for me.

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kramer
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by kramer » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:49 am

I am one of the many with an HSA at TD Ameritrade (and HSA Bank which uses TD Ameritrade as the brokerage). I can't add money to my HSA anymore, so it is just in maintenance mode for at least 10 more years. I do about one trade per year, reinvesting the dividends thrown off from my existing Vanguard ETFs inside the HSA. So I will probably stay and just invest this small amount annually in a different no-trading-fee ETF with fairly low cost. In the grand scheme, the money amount invested is small compared to the existing size of the account.

denovo
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by denovo » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:06 am

livesoft wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:16 am
It looks like I'll be transferring assets in-kind out of TDAmeritrade. They have one ETF on the list that has an Average Daily Volume of 57. That's not 5700, it is fifty-seven shares.

LiveSoft is my canary in a coal mine. I am out too.

denovo
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Re: TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard From Revamped Commission-Free ETF Lineup TD Ameritrade will nearly triple its overall c

Post by denovo » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:14 am

nisiprius wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:47 am
(Shrug) I don't know what goes on behind the scenes to make ETFs commission-free or mutual funds "no transaction fee" at a brokerage. For mutual funds, I think the fund company pays the brokerage a kickback fee of some kind. I doubt that Vanguard is willing to do this. Anyway, commission-free ETFs are some kind of marketing tool, perhaps even a loss leader.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/td-ameritr ... 1508126461
Vanguard, which doesn’t pay brokerage firms to sell its funds, won’t appear on TD Ameritrade’s list of commission-fee options. Vanguard products will still be available elsewhere on TD’s platform.

Some of those ETF providers do pay fees to TD Ameritrade, said Marco De Freitas, the company’s managing director, head of retail strategy, product and digital. “We have relationships in place where certain fund providers pay us for shareholder, administrative and other services,” he says.

Outafter20
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by Outafter20 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:10 am

I guess our foresight was 20/20. My wife moved her tIRA, in kind, to Vanguard a few months back. Her thought was they could always do away with the commission free ETFs (at least the Vanguard ones).

Just an FYI - those of you who have balances over $100,000, there is no fee to transfer the entire account out.

kehyler
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by kehyler » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:11 am

I haven't had a chance too look through the list yet, do we still have the ability to make a low-cost three fund portfolio? I used to use VTI, VEU&VSS, and BND.

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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:16 am

Outafter20 wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:10 am
Just an FYI - those of you who have balances over $100,000, there is no fee to transfer the entire account out.
This is true, and it's the household aggregate balance that matters. We transferred 5 TDAmeritrade accounts to Vanguard two years ago and didn't pay any transfer fees. Two of the accounts had balances less than $100,000, but they were all covered under our household Apex status.

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jhfenton
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by jhfenton » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:19 am

kehyler wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:11 am
I haven't had a chance too look through the list yet, do we still have the ability to make a low-cost three fund portfolio? I used to use VTI, VEU&VSS, and BND.
There are equivalents to VTI, VEU, and BND (and VWO), but not VSS.

VTI = SPTM (3 bp)
VEU = SPDW (4 bp)
BND = SPAB (4 bp)

VWO = SPEM (11 bp)

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serbeer
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by serbeer » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:19 am
kehyler wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:11 am
I haven't had a chance too look through the list yet, do we still have the ability to make a low-cost three fund portfolio? I used to use VTI, VEU&VSS, and BND.
There are equivalents to VTI, VEU, and BND (and VWO), but not VSS.

VTI = SPTM (3 bp)
VEU = SPDW (4 bp)
BND = SPAB (4 bp)

VWO = SPEM (11 bp)
The problem is, even if new funds are acceptable volume-wise, there are not corresponding pairs for TLH, are there?

stilllurking
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by stilllurking » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am

After logging into my HSA account at TDA, I saw a link to a PDF for the list of free ETFs as of 10/17/17.

Also posted on the public site:
https://www.tdameritrade.com/investment ... /etfs.page

I only use VTI here and it is still an option. There are a total of 30 Vanguard ETFs available. I believe previously there were 32.

Sigh of relief!!

deltaneutral83
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Re: Fellow TDA bogleheads

Post by deltaneutral83 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:26 am

stilllurking wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am
After logging into my HSA account at TDA, I saw a link to a PDF for the list of free ETFs as of 10/17/17.

Also posted on the public site:
https://www.tdameritrade.com/investment ... /etfs.page

I only use VTI here and it is still an option. There are a total of 30 Vanguard ETFs available. I believe previously there were 32.

Sigh of relief!!
VG ETFs aren't going anywhere, they are just now excluded from commission free with TDA.

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