Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
sreynard
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 8:11 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by sreynard » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:54 pm

Abe wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:22 am
randomguy wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:15 am
simmias wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:06 am
nisiprius wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:57 am
It takes twenty seconds to stop, bend over, pick up the penny, straighten up, and put it in your pocket.
Whenever anyone asks the average age of the bogleheads user, I'm going to reference this post. :D

I find it hard to believe it takes anyone 20s to pick up a penny. They can either do it in 10s or not at all:)

But lets run the math .01/20s = 3 cents/min or 1.80 hour. Wouldn't you be better off working an hour at 8 bucks/hr instead of picking up that penny? Something about being pennywise and pound foolish:) Not to mention it is really rude. Think of how exciting a 5 year old will be to see the penny and how much joy are you are removing from the world by your greed:)
This is the way I look at it. You have to bend over 100 times to make a dollar. Having said that, I have to admit I still pick up pennies. Can't tell you why. It's like a little voice in my head saying, "you better pick that penny up". :wink:
Karma. Maybe if I can't respect a little bit, I'll never be worth a lot. Maybe it's a slippery slope? Today, it's turn my nose up at a penny, tomorrow a dime, next week a $20? In a few years, I would let $100,000 slip through my fingers?

I probably LBYM for two reasons:

#1 My father. The first time I can recall wanting to spend my grass cutting money was on a $35 Daisy BB gun. My father questioned me closely about it, "Are you sure that's what you want to spend your money on? You sure there isn't something else you would want to save up for? If you spend it on that, it won't be there for something else you want later. . . ." I still have that old gun and occasionally shoot an aluminum can in the back yard as a memorial to a valuable lesson on opportunity cost.

#2 I'm basically lazy. I work because I have to. If I had enough to safely retire today, I'd probably be gone today. Not that I don't like my job, because most of the time I do, but there are some other things I would really prefer to be doing. So each one of those hours of employment is precious. I would really like to keep them down to a reasonable minimum. That makes spending on frivolous junk a little challenging. I see old guys shuffling down the halls at work and think, how sad, they're 70, 80, 90 years old, and this is all they have to do? There isn't anything more important in their life than this? That is my dread! Off to another project meeting, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle! That's only slightly better than needing to, but no longer being able to.

My theory is that people don't save and invest for the future because humans have almost limitless adaptability. We can get used to almost anything that doesn't kill us. While people may like the idea of getting more out of life, many many people are satisfied with what they have. Why sacrifice for something better when this is good enough? My wife always tries to get young people at her store to go to the local JC to learn a skill; get a better job; try for something better than "just making it by". They all professed interest, but none of them ever do. $11 an hour is good enough. . . .
Last edited by sreynard on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

veindoc
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by veindoc » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:55 pm

I knew from a young age that I wanted to retire early. When I say young I mean like a teenager. Not sure if I am just inherently lazy or what, but no one had to tell me to save for retirement. As soon as I had my first job as a teen, I was saving for my eventual retirement. When I started to invest in medical school twenty years ago, all the investing articles described early retirement as occurring in the 50's. When I turned 40, I started to hear about extreme early retirement and realized I could get there even earlier. At 44, still going but at this point it's basically OMY syndrome.

When I try to think back to what made me this way, I look at my parents. My mother stopped working to raise us and was economically dependent on my dad. She hated it. From her I learned to always have my own money.

My parents were immigrants and grew up in one of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere. My father ultimately became a physician. His siblings are cab drivers, nurses and and security guards. We grew up in a house with a yard. My cousins lived in apartment buildings and shared bedrooms. There was no doubt we were better off financially than they were. My dad went to work at 5am and came back at midnight six days a week. My aunts and uncles worked hard too, extremely hard but didn't have the same financial success my dad had. I knew I wanted to be successful and make money. To me that meant go to college like my parents and then work as hard as they all did. The only one who didn't work was my mother and she resented it. I was fine with the college part but I was exhausted thinking about all the hard work I would inevitably have to do. I think that's when the seed of early retirement sprouted. I was actually shocked to learn as an adult that some people work 9-5 and that's it. No one in my family worked that way. Days, nights, weekends and holiday: the adults were at work. Ultimately it paid off, everyone is financially independent. But as a youngster it seemed depressing. I wanted to work as much as I had to but for the shortest time period possible. So I banked the money- as much as I could and in every retirement vehicle available to me. And when I met my husband I made sure he did the same too.

At this rate, I will probably retire before my father does. He's fine economically but still at it and happy to do so.

Grt2bOutdoors
Posts: 19504
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
Location: New York

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:03 pm

I have family which has more means today. We all grew up from very modest means, quite modest. And yet, my immediate family found a way to stretch the dollar and saved what they could. They used those savings to take a risk on a duplex, live in one, rent the other out. Not easy, we had our fair share of deadbeat tenants including one who belonged to a group that nothing good came out of - we got off cheap paying $5k to get rid of them, home repairs, job losses. Worked their way up. Then I have family which also came from very modest means but the similarity ends there, their belief is "it takes big money to make money" In essence, unless you have alot of money to invest you can't accumulate enough to make a difference to get ahead. I have given up trying to explain the magic of compounding - they live for today, but tomorrow is fast approaching, the levers of compounding are becoming shorter making the mountain a more strenuous endeavor to overcome. One can hope though.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

Silverado
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:07 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Silverado » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:10 pm

I hate that fear has been cited so often here. That can cause stress, which is no good for anyone. But I am right there with you. That's it, fear of not being able to exist comfortably. I think my parents did a good job of setting an example. They borrowed $2500 once from mom's mom, and it was uncomfortable for dad to have that debt. I don't think it was the MIL factor, just the debt. I observed that as a ten year old or so. Had an impact. Then somehow once out of college I just understood needing to save.

As years went by, fear starting creeping in. I think it's because I have seen so may people let go from two former companies (I often wonder how in the heck I was never caught), that the thought of not having funds to do the various fairly simple things we do simply frightens me. We are on a great path, and all the heavy lifting could be left to the portfolio, but I can't let it autopilot. My wife has some fear, but is driven in some different ways. It's complementary so it works good.

I am trying to not let the first thought in many instances be 'boy, that is going to be expensive' as we move forward. It's a goal.

fantasytensai
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:30 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by fantasytensai » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:20 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:16 pm
fantasytensai wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:56 pm
dn160 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:01 pm
fantasytensai wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:17 pm
Because I hate my profession, but I invested years of my life into getting a degree and license for the earning potential, so I cannot (or should I say, choose not to) turn back.
This speaks to me on so many levels.
If you can, try not to take your work home with you. Cliche I know, but that is really so important.
fantasytensai,

I work from home. I guess I am doomed. :confused :shock: :oops: :sharebeer

KlangFool
Haha, you know what I mean. The ability to shut off work is wayyy underrated. I'm still working on mine.

snarlyjack
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:44 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by snarlyjack » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:22 pm

I get a psychological high from investing & a
psychological low from needless spending. I could
care less about shopping. My idea of a good book
is a good investment book.

McGilicutty
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:24 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by McGilicutty » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:55 pm

I live below my means because I'm wired that way. I'm not sure if I was born that way or if I became that way. My parents fought a lot over money and that caused a lot of stress for me when I was growing up so that may be one of the reasons that I LBMM -- I never want to be in a position where I'm hurting for money. Of course, saving money is one of the benefits of LBYM.

As for investing, I think I developed that interest in college. I would watch CNBC any time during the day that I wasn't in class. I know a lot of folks here just think of CNBC as financial porn, but I feel that I've learned a lot from watching it.

I had a research assistantship during grad school and as soon as I had some money saved I opened an account with Interactive Brokers. This was during the 1999-2000 bubble era. If I recall correctly, the first stock I bought was NTAP. I think it went up something like 5x or 10x in a year. I sold NTAP and started trading Broadcom. After a while, I think I lost all of my gains and was back to my original investment.

Around this time I discovered The Retire Early Home Page run by intercst. This is where I first learned about the 25x rule.

Eventually, I made my way to a big tech company on the West Coast and made quite a bit through stock options and stock grants from that company. I dabbled in the stock market between 2001 and 2012, but it wasn't until 2012 after selling most of my stock options that I got back into the market mostly through the SPY (S&P 500) ETF. Now, I work part-time in a LCOL area and have about 90% of my portfolio in S&P 500 and total stock market ETFs and the rest in individual tech stocks.

Teague
Posts: 1221
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Teague » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:41 pm

At some point I realized the easiest way to have enough money to retire is save for that. All I have to do is (almost) nothing. It beats working longer.

Now, as to why I understand the need to save and others don't realize that - I think maybe someone needs to ask the non-savers why they are different.
Semper Augustus

frugalecon
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:39 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by frugalecon » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:51 pm

It is interesting that people cite parents as examples. Mine definitely were; they followed LBYM even when the “M” was fairly modest. My mother sewed clothes for herself, and we always had a big garden. Dad saved in IRAs and 401k when they became available. (Though he wasn’t a great investor...too many behavioral mistakes.)

What is interesting is that I had the same parents as my two siblings, and I am the only one who became a serious saver/investor. Clearly the parentalexample is not sufficient.

AlwaysBeClimbing
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:39 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by AlwaysBeClimbing » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:38 pm

I LYBM in case I wind up in good health at age of standard life expectancy. Having good health and no money is probably as unpleasant as being in bad health with a lot of money. Also, I don't feel the urge to consume simply for the sake of consuming. I get things I need and if there's a want I can justify, I happily spend on that.

finite_difference
Posts: 1080
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by finite_difference » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:43 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am
Folks,

I started this topic because in my case, this is normal.

1) The average gross saving rate in my country is 30+%.

2) Looking for the bargain is part of the culture.

3) My family is multi-generations business family. Investing is part of the regular dining table discussion.

This is part of my community/culture. It extends beyond my family. This is the norm. So, I wonder how a person in a culture that this is not normally done come to this path.

KlangFool
And which culture is that? Because even though you make it sound like it’s been that way forever —and will remain that way — it could very well be changing. To use China as an example, there is a term which literally translates as “biting your ancestors” but which means an adult living off their parents; it’s becoming increasingly common that kids are spending their parents’ life savings on a foreign education or an apartment. And mortgages/car loans are picking up although domestic debt is still much less than the UK/US.

My point is that your upraising may no longer be the norm. Welcome to the “new normal” or whatever.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh

daveydoo
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 1:53 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by daveydoo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:49 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:32 pm

Once I was at a McDonald, the person in front of me was buying 20 pieces of chicken Nugget and paying about $6 from the main menu. To the right of the main menu is the dollar menu. The person could buy the same 20 pieces of chicken nugget for $4. But, he paid $6. Ditto on many other items that he bought that day...

What makes you different from others?
I guess that I don't go to McDonald's? :D

And why were you following that poor man around all day...?
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"

finite_difference
Posts: 1080
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by finite_difference » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:54 pm

In my case my Mom taught me about finances by example, by chiding me to set a budget and to make sure to save, and in some ways inspired me to learn more about finance through her anxieties and curiosity about how it all worked, which eventually lead me here. She was proud to always pay bills on time. And while she didn’t know about IRAs, she knew to max out their 401k, and understood compounding. And she never dared to touch their retirement accounts during good times or bad, which just so happens to be one of the best things you can do (doing nothing, that is.)

When I was little I remember reading the story about a kid who offers to give a lot of rice up front to the King, in return for 1 grain of rice the first day, 2 grains of rice the second day, and so on for double the previous amount each following day, for 30 days. The King thought that sounded like a sweet deal but pretty soon was in trouble. That’s just an exaggeration of how compounding works.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh

KlangFool
Posts: 10677
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by KlangFool » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:40 pm

Folks,

It is easier and normal if you live in a society that saves a lot of their income. The average gross saving rate for American at almost all income level is about 0%. But, somehow there are people like Bogleheads that do not behave like average American and save and invest a lot more. This is the interesting part. This is why I started this topic. Trying to understand and know the story that leads someone down this path.

KlangFool

User avatar
oldzey
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:38 pm
Location: Land of Lincoln

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by oldzey » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:58 pm

I sleep well at night knowing that I'm a saver and not a spender.
"The broker said the stock was 'poised to move.' Silly me, I thought he meant up." ― Randy Thurman

hmw
Posts: 567
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:44 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by hmw » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:36 am

KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am
Folks,

I started this topic because in my case, this is normal.

1) The average gross saving rate in my country is 30+%.

2) Looking for the bargain is part of the culture.

3) My family is multi-generations business family. Investing is part of the regular dining table discussion.

This is part of my community/culture. It extends beyond my family. This is the norm. So, I wonder how a person in a culture that this is not normally done come to this path.

KlangFool
We probably share similar cultural background. Your #1 and #2 points are true in my case, and all three points are true in my wife's case.

Expro
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:37 am
Location: Girona

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Expro » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:46 am

What I'm getting from this thread is that Bogleheads are frightened, job hating old people who pick up pennies and learned to save soap scraps from their parents and grandparents.

motorcyclesarecool
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by motorcyclesarecool » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:13 am

KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am
Folks,

I started this topic because in my case, this is normal.

1) The average gross saving rate in my country is 30+%.

2) Looking for the bargain is part of the culture.

3) My family is multi-generations business family. Investing is part of the regular dining table discussion.

This is part of my community/culture. It extends beyond my family. This is the norm. So, I wonder how a person in a culture that this is not normally done come to this path.

KlangFool
My ancestors were abnormally frugal. I spent weeks at a time visiting both sets of grandparents who survived the Great Depression and WWII. Both sides were conspicuously frugal yet unbelievably generous. On the maternal side, they shared a single teabag a day, making for a progressively weaker tea at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It was totally unnecessary but really precious.

On the paternal side, my grandfather was a boglehead before bogleheads existed. He subscribed to Morningstar in print and gave me his old copies. He gave me $1000 on the condition that I invest it in the Vanguard STAR fund mutual fund of funds. Which I did. What sold me on LBMM and saving/investing was breaking open my piggy bank to pay for a wedding and honeymoon. With zero intervention from me, Grandpa's $1000 had grown to over $5000. I've been hooked ever since.
Understand that choosing an HDHP is very much a "red pill" approach. Most would rather pay higher premiums for a $20 copay per visit. They will think you weird for choosing an HSA.

Ari
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 6:59 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Ari » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:52 am

I'm still a bit angry that nobody told me that it's possible to retire early until I was almost 30. It's not something I'd heard about, and I didn't know you could get continuous income from stocks. I remember thinking about it when I was younger, but I assumed I'd have to be able to live on the interest rate of a bank account, and this was hardly realistic.

I never cared much about money. When going to the boss for salary negotiation, I just accepted whatever he told me, since I didn't spend what I was earning and had no use for any more. I could spend loads of money on something pointless, like a really expensive hotel, once in a while mostly because what else are you going to do with it? I remember getting an angry letter from the union I don't remember joining. They told me my salary was too low and I was bad for the statistics. My boss got the same letter and the next salary negotiation we were both going "Yeah, I guess we should do something about this?".

Anyway, at some point in my late 20s, I started reading up on money and investments, just out of interest, and learned that there were actually people who retired with their own money (as opposed to the government paying them to stop working). I was flabbergasted, and ended up on BogleHeads trying to learn more. Somehow also got to Early Retirement Extreme and read some stuff there.

Now I've got a really good salary and I'm keeping my spending down, with a ~70% savings rate. I started saving at 30 and now, soon 34, I'm almost halfway to financial independence. I'll probably not stop working when I reach my number, but I'll be very happy to enjoy the freedom it entails. I'll be able to keep working to increase my spending, to work part time, to change carreers, to take periodical "mini-retirements", or whatever else I'll care to do. So for me, fear is not a big motivator, but rather the desire for freedom. I've never been a big spender, but now I'm frugal with a goal!
All in, all the time.

KlangFool
Posts: 10677
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:04 am

Expro wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:46 am
What I'm getting from this thread is that Bogleheads are frightened, job hating old people who pick up pennies and learned to save soap scraps from their parents and grandparents.
Expro,

Really?

I save 30+% of my gross income.

A) My annual expense is 60K per year with mortgage and property tax. My annual expense without mortgage and property tax is 40K per year.

B) I just spent $1,700 on a folding electric bike.

C) I buy new cars and eat out regularly.

KlangFool

User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 5284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:06 am

Silverado wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:10 pm
I hate that fear has been cited so often here. That can cause stress, which is no good for anyone.
It is the way people tend to be motivated. Great athletes almost always say the hate losing far more than they enjoy winning. Fight or flight man, fight or flight we try to avoid the negative, some by picking short term solutions like credit cards and junk food, others by pick long term solutions like saving and working out. They are either fleeing or fighting the negative. Just a thought.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

User avatar
Pajamas
Posts: 6015
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:32 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Pajamas » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:10 am

Here's an article about a Danish study that suggests that offspring are more likely to have financial problems if they parents have them. It doesn't discuss whether or not offspring also inherit their parent's good financial tendencies but would seem to imply that they do.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ur-parents

The study abstract:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=2996988
Basic theory points to three possible explanations for the correlation across generations in financial trouble: (i) children and parents face common shocks; (ii) children and parents insure each other against adverse shocks; (iii) financial behavior differs across people and is transmitted across generations. Our evidence indicates that the last explanation is the most important.
Expro wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:46 am
What I'm getting from this thread is that Bogleheads are frightened, job hating old people who pick up pennies and learned to save soap scraps from their parents and grandparents.
There is some truth there. My grandparents lived through and told stories of recessions in the early 1900s and the WWI era when the crops were left in the field because it cost more to harvest them than they could be sold for as well as of the Great Depression and WWII. My parents came of age during WWII when rationing was common. I grew up during the inflationary recession of the 1970s. I see here on Bogleheads and in discussions with friends with children how younger people have been affected by the 2007-2008 financial crisis. Every generation lives through difficult economic periods and learns lessons from them.
Last edited by Pajamas on Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

KlangFool
Posts: 10677
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:10 am

Expro wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:46 am
What I'm getting from this thread is that Bogleheads are frightened, job hating old people who pick up pennies and learned to save soap scraps from their parents and grandparents.
Expro,

Over a stretch of 5 1/2 years, my employer had 5% to 10% quarterly laid off until 80% of the employees were gone. Over that time period, in spite of the continuous laid off, my location double and triple our revenue and profits. As a reward for our performance, my location was shut down and off-shored to India.

Would you love your job at this employer?

KlangFool

User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 5284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:12 am

daveydoo wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:49 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:32 pm

Once I was at a McDonald, the person in front of me was buying 20 pieces of chicken Nugget and paying about $6 from the main menu. To the right of the main menu is the dollar menu. The person could buy the same 20 pieces of chicken nugget for $4. But, he paid $6. Ditto on many other items that he bought that day...

What makes you different from others?
I guess that I don't go to McDonald's? :D

And why were you following that poor man around all day...?
While I am keenly aware of the McDonald's dollar menu and think they have great breakfast sandwiches (and fries of course) and the $1 cokes are a good deal, I am pretty sure once healthcare costs are factored in the meals are pretty expensive no matter which menu you use.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 5284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:31 am

KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:40 pm
Folks,

It is easier and normal if you live in a society that saves a lot of their income. The average gross saving rate for American at almost all income level is about 0%. But, somehow there are people like Bogleheads that do not behave like average American and save and invest a lot more. This is the interesting part. This is why I started this topic. Trying to understand and know the story that leads someone down this path.

KlangFool
Middle and lower middle class Americans have for quite a long period been reliant on home equity as a source wealth in the later years combined with SS, which is forced savings that is considered a tax not savings when calculating savings rate.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 5284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:36 am

hmw wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:36 am
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am
Folks,

I started this topic because in my case, this is normal.

1) The average gross saving rate in my country is 30+%.

2) Looking for the bargain is part of the culture.

3) My family is multi-generations business family. Investing is part of the regular dining table discussion.

This is part of my community/culture. It extends beyond my family. This is the norm. So, I wonder how a person in a culture that this is not normally done come to this path.

KlangFool
We probably share similar cultural background. Your #1 and #2 points are true in my case, and all three points are true in my wife's case.
Just to make sure we are correctly representing this, and assuming we are speaking of the Chinese which are champion savers of the world, they save 30% of their disposable income which is net of taxes not gross.
Chinese household socks away about 30 percent of its disposable income, one of the world's highest rates. The downside of saving so much is that consumption makes up only about 35 percent of gross domestic product. -- Bloomberg Apr 30, 2015
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

book lover
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:01 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by book lover » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 am

J. Paul Getty at the time the richest man in the world had pay phones installed in his house because he was fed up with people using his phones. He was once at a party and asked the host how much it cost for the event and when the host did not know told the host that for each party he knew exactly what the cost was per person. While that seems a bit extreme, I do agree with the Latte Factor philosophy which says that if people pay more attention to their discretionary expenses they would have more money to save and invest.

KlangFool
Posts: 10677
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:57 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:36 am
hmw wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:36 am
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am
Folks,

I started this topic because in my case, this is normal.

1) The average gross saving rate in my country is 30+%.

2) Looking for the bargain is part of the culture.

3) My family is multi-generations business family. Investing is part of the regular dining table discussion.

This is part of my community/culture. It extends beyond my family. This is the norm. So, I wonder how a person in a culture that this is not normally done come to this path.

KlangFool
We probably share similar cultural background. Your #1 and #2 points are true in my case, and all three points are true in my wife's case.
Just to make sure we are correctly representing this, and assuming we are speaking of the Chinese which are champion savers of the world, they save 30% of their disposable income which is net of taxes not gross.
Chinese household socks away about 30 percent of its disposable income, one of the world's highest rates. The downside of saving so much is that consumption makes up only about 35 percent of gross domestic product. -- Bloomberg Apr 30, 2015
TheTimeLord,

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pe ... e-most.asp

KlangFool

User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 5284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:22 am

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:57 am
TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:36 am
hmw wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:36 am
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am
Folks,

I started this topic because in my case, this is normal.

1) The average gross saving rate in my country is 30+%.

2) Looking for the bargain is part of the culture.

3) My family is multi-generations business family. Investing is part of the regular dining table discussion.

This is part of my community/culture. It extends beyond my family. This is the norm. So, I wonder how a person in a culture that this is not normally done come to this path.

KlangFool
We probably share similar cultural background. Your #1 and #2 points are true in my case, and all three points are true in my wife's case.
Just to make sure we are correctly representing this, and assuming we are speaking of the Chinese which are champion savers of the world, they save 30% of their disposable income which is net of taxes not gross.
Chinese household socks away about 30 percent of its disposable income, one of the world's highest rates. The downside of saving so much is that consumption makes up only about 35 percent of gross domestic product. -- Bloomberg Apr 30, 2015
TheTimeLord,

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pe ... e-most.asp

KlangFool
Since you like Investopedia, as do I, here you go.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/savings-rate.asp
What is a 'Savings Rate'
A savings rate is the amount of money, expressed as a percentage or ratio, that a person deducts from his disposable personal income to set aside as a nest egg or for retirement. The cash accumulated is typically put into very low-risk investments (depending on various factors such as expected time until retirement), like a money market fund or a personal individual retirement account (IRA) composed of non-aggressive mutual funds, stocks and bonds.
Calculating Savings Rate
The savings rate is the ratio of personal savings to disposable personal income and can be calculated for an economy as a whole or at the personal level. The Federal Reserve defines disposable income as all sources of income minus the tax you pay on that income. Your savings is disposable income minus expenditures, such as credit card payments and utility bills. Using this approach, if you have has $30,000 left over after taxes (disposable income) and spend $24,000 in expenditures, then your savings are $6,000. Dividing savings by your disposable income yields a savings rate of 20% ($6,000 / $30,000 x 100).
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

fantasytensai
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:30 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by fantasytensai » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:05 am

Expro wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:46 am
What I'm getting from this thread is that Bogleheads are frightened, job hating old people who pick up pennies and learned to save soap scraps from their parents and grandparents.
I'm 29, but the other points are valid.

SGM
Posts: 2765
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by SGM » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:50 am

I learned about compounding at a very early age. While I found a lot of good role models, I also observed and learned the mistakes of others. I repeatedly found ways to increase my human capital while enjoying life along the way. I opted for increased opportunities and experience as opposed to staying some place I did not enjoy just to get a large pension.

Lynette
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Lynette » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:12 am

Interesting thread. My parents were very frugal as they grew up during the Depression. I saved, worked long but had pensions and SS that cover my expenses. I'm retired now and still figuring out what to spend. As I worked long, I spent a small fortune on my hobby of travel but I still saved even though I have pensions. At the moment I'm totally content to simply study Spanish and read. Part of the reason I don't spend much is that I HATE shopping. I could likely save more by bargain hunting, using coupons, chasing credit card and brokerage bonuses. As for the OP's original question on McDonalds, I would not even have noticed. I buy everything at a Michigan supermarket - including clothes. I know the prices are low and that is good enough for me. Otherwise I shop at Amazon.

delamer
Posts: 6402
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by delamer » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:38 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:31 am
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:40 pm
Folks,

It is easier and normal if you live in a society that saves a lot of their income. The average gross saving rate for American at almost all income level is about 0%. But, somehow there are people like Bogleheads that do not behave like average American and save and invest a lot more. This is the interesting part. This is why I started this topic. Trying to understand and know the story that leads someone down this path.

KlangFool
Middle and lower middle class Americans have for quite a long period been reliant on home equity as a source wealth in the later years combined with SS, which is forced savings that is considered a tax not savings when calculating savings rate.
When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, my parents' and their friends' primary financial goal was to pay off their mortgages as soon as possible. I'd guess that some of them probably would have been better off in the long run if they'd invested some of those funds instead, but the security was very important. Most of them grew up during the Depression, and it profoundly shaped their thinking (understandably).

I am surprised today how many of the families that I know at or near retirement age have most of their wealth in their homes, and have minimal, relative to their incomes, liquid assets. At the other extreme, I know families who are great savers but have little to no knowledge of investing. They are very happy to have money in the bank, but don't care much about the return they are getting (but they clip coupons).

stoptothink
Posts: 4521
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by stoptothink » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:54 am

Expro wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:46 am
What I'm getting from this thread is that Bogleheads are frightened, job hating old people who pick up pennies and learned to save soap scraps from their parents and grandparents.
That's quite a sad way to look at it. We want for nothing. Live in a nicer home, drive nicer vehicles, have nicer stuff, and go to more places than either my wife or I ever dreamed of was possible. My wife just spent nearly $1k on a mattress; I didn't even have a bed for all of my childhood and most of my adult life. It just so happens we can do that and still save nearly half of our income, and no we aren't super high-earners.

I know what improves my quality of life, and never having to worry about money makes me a lot happier than driving an exotic car or regularly eating out.

KlangFool
Posts: 10677
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:59 am

delamer wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:38 am
TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:31 am
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:40 pm
Folks,

It is easier and normal if you live in a society that saves a lot of their income. The average gross saving rate for American at almost all income level is about 0%. But, somehow there are people like Bogleheads that do not behave like average American and save and invest a lot more. This is the interesting part. This is why I started this topic. Trying to understand and know the story that leads someone down this path.

KlangFool
Middle and lower middle class Americans have for quite a long period been reliant on home equity as a source wealth in the later years combined with SS, which is forced savings that is considered a tax not savings when calculating savings rate.
When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, my parents' and their friends' primary financial goal was to pay off their mortgages as soon as possible. I'd guess that some of them probably would have been better off in the long run if they'd invested some of those funds instead, but the security was very important. Most of them grew up during the Depression, and it profoundly shaped their thinking (understandably).

I am surprised today how many of the families that I know at or near retirement age have most of their wealth in their homes, and have minimal, relative to their incomes, liquid assets. At the other extreme, I know families who are great savers but have little to no knowledge of investing. They are very happy to have money in the bank, but don't care much about the return they are getting (but they clip coupons).
delamer,

Many of them have pensions. So, they were in a fairly good shape as compared to us.

KlangFool
Last edited by KlangFool on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sandi_k
Posts: 829
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 11:55 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Sandi_k » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:05 am

I'm with other previous posters: I save and invest because of fear.

I saw my grandmother widowed, and then her husband's *tiny* pension, which had allowed for some small luxuries, disappeared with him. She was reduced to moving in with each of her daughters, and finding that the two daughters with kids couldn't live with her in the household - she was way too interfering. So she finally moved in with the daughter who had no kids, and spent the last 8 years of her life as an add-on to someone else's life and home.

I saw my mom widowed at 64. Her husband's pension disappeared too - when he retired from the military, he took his pension with no survivor's benefits, since he'd just split from his first wife. So my mom ended up with a $350 monthly corporate pension, about $1200 in SocSec, and some small investment income. She'd abandoned her own possible pension with 6 months to go when my step-dad relocated for work in 1981. In 2001, she had real reason to regret that choice. She has been able to hold onto her house, but she lives on less than $20k per year in California - which is not a cheap place to live.

I've been saving for retirement since my first post-college job. I am not depending on my husband's income, pension, potential SocSec, inheritance, or anything of that nature. I will be fine based on my work, and my savings.

delamer
Posts: 6402
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by delamer » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:26 am

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:59 am
delamer wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:38 am
TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:31 am
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:40 pm
Folks,

It is easier and normal if you live in a society that saves a lot of their income. The average gross saving rate for American at almost all income level is about 0%. But, somehow there are people like Bogleheads that do not behave like average American and save and invest a lot more. This is the interesting part. This is why I started this topic. Trying to understand and know the story that leads someone down this path.

KlangFool
Middle and lower middle class Americans have for quite a long period been reliant on home equity as a source wealth in the later years combined with SS, which is forced savings that is considered a tax not savings when calculating savings rate.
When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, my parents' and their friends' primary financial goal was to pay off their mortgages as soon as possible. I'd guess that some of them probably would have been better off in the long run if they'd invested some of those funds instead, but the security was very important. Most of them grew up during the Depression, and it profoundly shaped their thinking (understandably).

I am surprised today how many of the families that I know at or near retirement age have most of their wealth in their homes, and have minimal, relative to their incomes, liquid assets. At the other extreme, I know families who are great savers but have little to no knowledge of investing. They are very happy to have money in the bank, but don't care much about the return they are getting (but they clip coupons).
delamer,

Many of them have pensions. So, they are in a fairly good shape as compared to us.

KlangFool
True, especially if they worked for major corporations or in the public sector. Although my husband and I are fortunate to have traditional pensions too.

Afty
Posts: 843
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Afty » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:31 am

I don't do it because of fear or because I hate my job. I do it because my parents did it. They were proto-Bogleheads; professionals living in a LCOL area, they saved and invested probably 50% of their (high) incomes. They drilled saving into me at an early age. I don't think it's rational for me at this point, it's just how I am.

User avatar
BolderBoy
Posts: 4176
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:16 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by BolderBoy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:57 am

My depression-era father raised me to believe that no matter what, you are only one misstep away from utter destitution. Unfortunately, I'm still acting on that belief...
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect

overcomer
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:09 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by overcomer » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:27 pm

It is part of the law of reaping and sowing, investing is sowing good seed, it is one of many good habits that brings abundance and life, one of many bad habits are, eating your seed( spending your money) before it can multiply, learning can be transforming! :D

hmw
Posts: 567
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:44 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by hmw » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:29 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:36 am
hmw wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:36 am
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am
Folks,

I started this topic because in my case, this is normal.

1) The average gross saving rate in my country is 30+%.

2) Looking for the bargain is part of the culture.

3) My family is multi-generations business family. Investing is part of the regular dining table discussion.

This is part of my community/culture. It extends beyond my family. This is the norm. So, I wonder how a person in a culture that this is not normally done come to this path.

KlangFool
We probably share similar cultural background. Your #1 and #2 points are true in my case, and all three points are true in my wife's case.
Just to make sure we are correctly representing this, and assuming we are speaking of the Chinese which are champion savers of the world, they save 30% of their disposable income which is net of taxes not gross.
Chinese household socks away about 30 percent of its disposable income, one of the world's highest rates. The downside of saving so much is that consumption makes up only about 35 percent of gross domestic product. -- Bloomberg Apr 30, 2015
I don't know KlangFool's background for sure. Maybe Malaysian Chinese? Both my wife and I are of Chinese descent.

User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 5284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:46 pm

hmw wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:29 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:36 am
hmw wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:36 am
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am
Folks,

I started this topic because in my case, this is normal.

1) The average gross saving rate in my country is 30+%.

2) Looking for the bargain is part of the culture.

3) My family is multi-generations business family. Investing is part of the regular dining table discussion.

This is part of my community/culture. It extends beyond my family. This is the norm. So, I wonder how a person in a culture that this is not normally done come to this path.

KlangFool
We probably share similar cultural background. Your #1 and #2 points are true in my case, and all three points are true in my wife's case.
Just to make sure we are correctly representing this, and assuming we are speaking of the Chinese which are champion savers of the world, they save 30% of their disposable income which is net of taxes not gross.
Chinese household socks away about 30 percent of its disposable income, one of the world's highest rates. The downside of saving so much is that consumption makes up only about 35 percent of gross domestic product. -- Bloomberg Apr 30, 2015
I don't know KlangFool's background for sure. Maybe Malaysian Chinese? Both my wife and I are of Chinese descent.
I do not know either. Just guessing based off the 30% savings rate he is quoting matching to the rate in China and China being among the most avid saving societies on the planet.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

KlangFool
Posts: 10677
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:02 pm

Folks,

Please stay on topic. This is not about me. My question is why do some American save and invest when the overall average saving rate is 0%. My part is boring. The norm in my society is to save and invest. I am just doing whatever the average folks in my society are doing.

KlangFool

hq38sq43
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:25 pm
Location: Bradenton FL

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by hq38sq43 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:20 pm

For a financially secure retirement. Done.

Best regards,
Harry at Bradenton

User avatar
goodenyou
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:57 pm
Location: Skating to Where the Puck is Going to Be..or on the golf course

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by goodenyou » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:18 pm

If you are comparing cultural differences between Americans and Asians, I would imagine that the idea of self-reliance and the (lack of) a social safety net comes into play. Without digressing into forbidden politics, I believe the welfare system may have some impact on savings rates. Americans also work longer, take less vacations and retire later than almost any other nation. Milton Friedman also once opined that we are really a culture where the family unit is the core and not the individual. Cultures that are family-centric may also have a higher propensity to save.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" | "The best years you have left are the ones you have right now"

KlangFool
Posts: 10677
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:04 pm

goodenyou wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:18 pm
If you are comparing cultural differences between Americans and Asians, I would imagine that the idea of self-reliance and the (lack of) a social safety net comes into play. Without digressing into forbidden politics, I believe the welfare system may have some impact on savings rates. Americans also work longer, take less vacations and retire later than almost any other nation. Milton Friedman also once opined that we are really a culture where the family unit is the core and not the individual. Cultures that are family-centric may also have a higher propensity to save.
goodenyou,

The question on this topic is why some American save and invest while average American don't?

So far, the popular answers are:

A) Family influence

B) Bad boss/job

C) Experienced a recession and/or job loss.

KlangFool

Atilla
Posts: 1262
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Atilla » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:28 pm

"My question to the member of the forum is this. What makes you different from others? What makes you believe that you could be LBYM, save and invest to make a difference in your life? I believe this will be a very interesting topic to discuss."

For me it was finding myself divorced, living in a craphole 1 bedroom sublet at 35 years old with maybe $30K in retirement savings, $27K in credit card debt and pre-tax annual pay of under $50K. Up till then I spent my whole life spending more than I made. People have gone through worse, but for me it was a huge wake up call.

15 years later I'm married to a lovely woman who was always good with money, we own our house free and clear and together we have a net worth screaming toward 2 million.

I save and give more than I spend and you could have never convinced my old self that was even possible. :sharebeer
The Village Idiot - here for your entertainment.

Dead Man Walking
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:51 pm

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Dead Man Walking » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:22 pm

dn160 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:01 pm
fantasytensai wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:17 pm
Because I hate my profession, but I invested years of my life into getting a degree and license for the earning potential, so I cannot (or should I say, choose not to) turn back.
This speaks to me on so many levels.
I felt the same way, but I stayed the course for the pension. My grandfather told me if work was supposed to be fun, they wouldn't have called it work. I lived well below my means and saved so that I could retire early. I really love retirement. I won the game.

DMW
Last edited by Dead Man Walking on Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

scottinmet
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:27 am

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by scottinmet » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:44 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:32 pm

My question to the member of the forum is this. What makes you different from others? What makes you believe that you could be LBYM, save and invest to make a difference in your life? I believe this will be a very interesting topic to discuss.
For me it is definitely fear:
  • Fear of losing my job.
  • Fear of not being able to support my kids.
  • Fear of dying and my kids being destitute.
  • Fear of losing control of my future.
  • Fear of being ridiculed for being a loser at life.
  • Fear of SS not being there when I'm eligible.
Looking over the list, the fears have piled on as I have gotten older and consequently my savings to spending ratio has gone up quite a bit over the last several years and my frugality and careful spending have increased as well. Also, having a relatively large 401k does not help with my fears that much as it is not easily touchable until you get past a certain age, therefore not only do I have to save the max in the 401k, I also have to move as much as I can into Roth and taxable.

User avatar
Toons
Posts: 13049
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Why do you LBYM? Why do you save and invest?

Post by Toons » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:50 pm

Why save and invest?
To have some gold in the golden years.

"The New Reality Of Old Age In America :shock:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... ge%2Fstory
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee

Post Reply