Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

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tooluser
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by tooluser » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:44 pm

For difficult customer service issues, I have always had better (and very good) luck writing a physical letter to the CEO, than in complaining to Customer Service. I have not had to do so for Vanguard. If you calmly and briefly lay out your concerns, you will almost certainly get a reply, at least know that they heard you, and that the response you receive is officially the company response, and not some ill-considered reply-of-the-moment. If the issue is very egregious or very important to you it is worth the time and postage.

Maybe e-mail them if they make it easy to do so - but it should be a direct e-mail, not one submitted through customer service.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:27 am

Kevin M wrote:Drawdown is a period of negative total return.
I usually think of "drawdown" as a voluntary reduction of a source of assets like a saving account, or a line of credit or even a manure pile but I see where you use of the term is valid. The problem with it's use in the current topic is that it is one sided. It ignores "buildup" which can be an important factor for different fixed income types during equity market stress. If you look at the drawdown in the chart I presented but expand your time frame to the whole five year period you get different perspective of the effect. And if you go our to ten years you get "buildup" not "drawdown". It's the "bonds are for safety" conundrum. Safety of the bond or safety of the protfolio?
Kevin M wrote:A cent is not a basis point, so calling 15 cents 15 bps makes no sense. The math for the price decline would be -0.15/10.80 = -1.4%. Since there is no difference of percentages involved anywhere in this calculation, basis points or percentage points are not relevant units.
My bad.
Kevin M wrote:If we want to compare a Treasury fund to Prime MM, we should compare Treasury MM fund, with an SEC yield of 0.63%
I was just pointing out the Prime money market no longer guarantees a fixed price. I was looking at price variance not return.
Kevin M wrote:The short-term Treasury fund only holds only about 20% of its portfolio in Treasuries with maturities of less than one year. ...thank you very much
The Vanguard short term Treasury fund follows the BBgBarc 1-5 Treasury index. The less than one year holdings are near zero. Your bad. You are welcome. :sharebeer

We do agree that a short term bond fund is not cash. How did we bet sidetracked on the cash/bond/CD debate? That's a rhetorical question. Please don't answer.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by DaleMaley » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:56 am

Doc wrote:
DaleMaley wrote:Now I electronically move money from her money market fund to my local bank checking account, then pay the bill using my local bank check, to avoid all the hassle.
Right.

Bogleheads don't make mutual fund investments through their bank so why should they want to write checks on their investment accounts? :?
What if you are an older person who is not very computer literate, and you don't know, or you don't want to know how to go online and move money from Vanguard to your checking account? I have several family members in this category.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by dbr » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:29 am

DaleMaley wrote:
Doc wrote:
DaleMaley wrote:Now I electronically move money from her money market fund to my local bank checking account, then pay the bill using my local bank check, to avoid all the hassle.
Right.

Bogleheads don't make mutual fund investments through their bank so why should they want to write checks on their investment accounts? :?
What if you are an older person who is not very computer literate, and you don't know, or you don't want to know how to go online and move money from Vanguard to your checking account? I have several family members in this category.
like it or not, it may be that being unable to manage one's finances and other daily affairs online is going to result in virtual paralysis. I would urge anyone not yet computer literate at some level to become so as soon as possible. This whole area is problematic. One issue, for example, is how caretakers, POA, etc. can also help people as they lose their own faculties. But it is a valid point how possible it is to keep up yet avoid electronic interaction.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:32 pm

DaleMaley wrote:What if you are an older person who is not very computer literate, and you don't know, or you don't want to know how to go online and move money from Vanguard to your checking account? I have several family members in this category.
Then you get someone that is more capable to help them set it up and also put Vanguard's number on their speed dial so they can phone Vg and have the rep send them the money to their bank.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Kevin M » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:33 pm

Doc wrote:
Kevin M wrote:The short-term Treasury fund only holds only about 20% of its portfolio in Treasuries with maturities of less than one year. ...thank you very much
The Vanguard short term Treasury fund follows the BBgBarc 1-5 Treasury index. The less than one year holdings are near zero. Your bad.
Straight from the Vanguard web page for the fund:

Distribution by effective maturity (% of fund) as of 03/31/2017
Short-Term Treasury Inv
Under 1 Year 19.0%

Vanguard - Short-Term Treasury Fund Investor Shares - Portfolio & Management.

But it's the 81% of the portfolio with maturity of one year or more that is the relevant factor here. If it were 100%, that would be even worse (in terms of comparing to a MM fund).

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:03 pm

Kevin M wrote:
Doc wrote:
Kevin M wrote:The short-term Treasury fund only holds only about 20% of its portfolio in Treasuries with maturities of less than one year. ...thank you very much
The Vanguard short term Treasury fund follows the BBgBarc 1-5 Treasury index. The less than one year holdings are near zero. Your bad.
Straight from the Vanguard web page for the fund:

Distribution by effective maturity (% of fund) as of 03/31/2017
Short-Term Treasury Inv
Under 1 Year 19.0%

Vanguard - Short-Term Treasury Fund Investor Shares - Portfolio & Management.

But it's the 81% of the portfolio with maturity of one year or more that is the relevant factor here. If it were 100%, that would be even worse (in terms of comparing to a MM fund).

Kevin
Kevin I was only saying the that the NAV of both varies because Prime MM is no longer always $1. There was no intent of comparing their duration or yields. If the criteria for cash is fixed price than Prime MM is not cash just as a short term Treasury fund is not cash. But I think that Prime is cash so the fixed price is not a requirement in my mind.

Weird portfolio details:

Morningstar and Vanguard are both showing $7.8B AUM and and duration of 2.26 and 2.2 respectively. As of dates 12/31/16 and 3/31/17.

Vanguard has $691M in Vanguard Market Liquidity Fund as of 12/31/16. (Note the date for the detail is different than their summary page.) These short term reserves are about 8% of the AUM.

Looking at Vanguard's portfolio detail with the 12/31/16 as of date the earliest maturity bond date is 11/30/17. Eleven months away but still under a year. There are three more issues maturing in December.

I tried to get the 3-5 year number from Vg detailed data and got 43% compare M*'s 26.58% and Vanguard's own 18.3% as of 3/31/17. I probably screwed up a year.)

By comparison Vanguard's Short Term Governments (1-3 Index) has 97.9% in the 1-3 range and a duration of 2.0. (1/31/17 as of)

This makes no sense.

Its getting worse. The annual report dated 1/31/17 shows 9% under 1 year which looks like the short term reserve fund amount from 12/31/16.

From the annual report:

Other Assets and Liabilities (-1.3%)
Other Assets 653,723
Liabilities (755,648)
Net ....... (101,925) (amounts in $000)

These net to a small amount but each by themselves is about 10% of AUM

So bottom line: Should we consider that VFISX is 80% bonds and 20% cash equivalents? :twisted:

I have ceased to care. My AA is equities/fixed income and cash is fixed income except for short term (like 10 minutes or only 5 if I drive to the bank) demand deposits.

Enough. I am not even going to proof read this mess. If it wasn't thunder storming I would drive over to Larry's and offer to take him to Mike Duffy's pub for a beer.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by dh » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:34 am

I realize the OP started this thread two months ago, yet today was the first day that I received an invitation to change to a brokerage account. Here is the central portion of the email:

We invite you to transition your Vanguard mutual fund account to the Vanguard Brokerage Account—a simple, more flexible way to manage all your investments in the same account. When you make the move, you'll gain:
• A wider range of investment choices, including not only Vanguard mutual funds but also ETFs (exchange-traded funds), stocks, bonds, and CDs (certificates of deposit).
• Fast, commission-free transactions for all Vanguard mutual funds and ETFs.*
• The ability to easily cancel transactions, gift Vanguard fund shares, and make same-day fund purchases with trade proceeds.
We hope you'll take advantage of this exciting offer, which will greatly enhance your investing experience at Vanguard.

I do not have a taxable account with Vanguard. I do have a Roth IRA and a Rollover IRA (from a previous employers 401 plan). I only have Vanguard mutual funds in those two accounts. I don't foresee a need to buy ETFs, individual stocks, bonds or CDs. Am I a person who should decline the invitation, or am I missing out on advantages that I am unaware. Thank you!

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Kevin M » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:22 pm

dh wrote: I do not have a taxable account with Vanguard. I do have a Roth IRA and a Rollover IRA (from a previous employers 401 plan). I only have Vanguard mutual funds in those two accounts. I don't foresee a need to buy ETFs, individual stocks, bonds or CDs. Am I a person who should decline the invitation, or am I missing out on advantages that I am unaware. Thank you!
If happy with what you have, I would stick with it until Vanguard forces you to switch, or makes it too inconvenient to not switch. That's what I'm doing.

I actually started to "upgrade" a smaller Roth account the other day for a particular reason, but it turned out I needed to download and fill out a form to do so. Some accounts can be upgraded online with a few clicks (I've done that with a few accounts for various reasons), but it's not worth it to me to download, fill out, and mail a paper form to do it.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by wander » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:37 am

I still see the "upgrade" button on some of my accounts.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by randomizer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:06 am

Fun fact: seems you can't upgrade if you are not a US-citizen and happen to have a trust account. (One of the forms you fill out has you indicate US citizen, resident alien, or non-resident alien, and the only one which is enabled is the citizen one.) I guess that makes the choice of whether to upgrade or not pretty easy for me!
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by S_Track » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:47 am

How do I know if I have a brokerage account? When I log in to my TIRA, I get a white screen which shows total assets and then directly under a link titled My name - Traditional IRS brokerage - Account Number. When I click on the link it takes me almost to another account (different tabs) where I see links for purchasing ETFs and stocks... Is this a brokerage, is the first page presented to me a parent which can hold multiple sub accounts? If I click on the link at the top to open an account I get a section titled upgrade your account, consolidate to a vanguard brokerage account. Thanks

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by flamesabers » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:34 pm

wander wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:37 am
I still see the "upgrade" button on some of my accounts.
I don't see an upgrade button on any of my accounts. I haven't initiated the transition either. Does this mean Vanguard changed my account to a brokerage account? I don't they would since I thought I would have to complete some paperwork in order to open a brokerage account with them.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by abuss368 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:59 pm

One of my concerns and thus would be an inconvenience is the annual statement. The statements for our mutual fund only accounts are "year to date statements". Thus we print out the statement only once during the year and all transaction are reported on the statement.

My understanding (and I hope I am incorrect here) is that the brokerage account statements are not year to date and thus do not report every single transactions form the past year at year end.

Perhaps someone can offer additional insight.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by jebmke » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:36 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:59 pm
My understanding (and I hope I am incorrect here) is that the brokerage account statements are not year to date and thus do not report every single transactions form the past year at year end.
I have some ETFs in my individual brokerage account. Looking at the December, YTD statement for 2016 I think you are correct; it appears to only list the December transactions. I don't know if this is a "default" reporting mode that can be changed by them or something that is hard-wired. It is a drawback. I keep all my taxable transactions in Quicken so I have a central place to go for those if I need something in summary form. That isn't ideal.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by abuss368 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:39 pm

jebmke wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:36 pm
abuss368 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:59 pm
My understanding (and I hope I am incorrect here) is that the brokerage account statements are not year to date and thus do not report every single transactions form the past year at year end.
I have some ETFs in my individual brokerage account. Looking at the December, YTD statement for 2016 I think you are correct; it appears to only list the December transactions. I don't know if this is a "default" reporting mode that can be changed by them or something that is hard-wired. It is a drawback. I keep all my taxable transactions in Quicken so I have a central place to go for those if I need something in summary form. That isn't ideal.
Hi jebmke -

That was what I had noticed with the one account I was privy to review. Now in terms of the mutual fund only accounts, I had to contact Vanguard to have our statements changed from "quarter to date" to "year to date". Brokerage appears different however. One would think Vanguard could lower costs by providing a simple year to date (with all transactions) statement once a year.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by quantAndHold » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:47 pm

bob_m10 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:47 am
How do I know if I have a brokerage account? When I log in to my TIRA, I get a white screen which shows total assets and then directly under a link titled My name - Traditional IRS brokerage - Account Number. When I click on the link it takes me almost to another account (different tabs) where I see links for purchasing ETFs and stocks... Is this a brokerage, is the first page presented to me a parent which can hold multiple sub accounts? If I click on the link at the top to open an account I get a section titled upgrade your account, consolidate to a vanguard brokerage account. Thanks
Your account name is “Traditional IRA Brokerage”. It’s a brokerage account. Also, if it’s not a brokerage account, there’ll be a link to upgrade it.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mel Lindauer » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:16 pm

My Vanguard brokerage statements are "Year to Date". Not sure why others seem to be having problems getting their statements that way.

Call Vanguard and tell them your preference.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by retiredjg » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:06 pm

bob_m10 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:47 am
How do I know if I have a brokerage account? When I log in to my TIRA, I get a white screen which shows total assets and then directly under a link titled My name - Traditional IRS brokerage - Account Number.
It is a brokerage account. You know because it has "brokerage" in the name and because you can buy ETFs there. You cannot buy ETFs in the old style mutual fund accounts.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by retiredjg » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:10 pm

quantAndHold wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:47 pm
Also, if it’s not a brokerage account, there’ll be a link to upgrade it.
I don't think this is necessarily correct for everyone. I just got my "offer' for an upgrade a few months ago. And I just got the upgrade button as well. I believe there are others who have not gotten their "offer" yet.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by abuss368 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:01 pm

Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:16 pm
My Vanguard brokerage statements are "Year to Date". Not sure why others seem to be having problems getting their statements that way.

Call Vanguard and tell them your preference.
Mel -

Your "year to date statement" at year end (i.e. December statement) will show the transactions for all 12 months?
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by flamesabers » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:14 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:10 pm
quantAndHold wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:47 pm
Also, if it’s not a brokerage account, there’ll be a link to upgrade it.
I don't think this is necessarily correct for everyone. I just got my "offer' for an upgrade a few months ago. And I just got the upgrade button as well. I believe there are others who have not gotten their "offer" yet.
I got the offer to upgrade along and the upgrade button did appear on my accounts. However, the upgrade button has disappeared on my accounts. Did Vanguard rescind the upgrade offer to me or something? :confused

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by retiredjg » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:03 pm

flamesabers wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:14 pm
retiredjg wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:10 pm
quantAndHold wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:47 pm
Also, if it’s not a brokerage account, there’ll be a link to upgrade it.
I don't think this is necessarily correct for everyone. I just got my "offer' for an upgrade a few months ago. And I just got the upgrade button as well. I believe there are others who have not gotten their "offer" yet.
I got the offer to upgrade along and the upgrade button did appear on my accounts. However, the upgrade button has disappeared on my accounts. Did Vanguard rescind the upgrade offer to me or something? :confused
Those of us who don't want to upgrade can only HOPE that button disappears. :twisted:

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mel Lindauer » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:52 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:01 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:16 pm
My Vanguard brokerage statements are "Year to Date". Not sure why others seem to be having problems getting their statements that way.

Call Vanguard and tell them your preference.
Mel -

Your "year to date statement" at year end (i.e. December statement) will show the transactions for all 12 months?
No. It's called "YTD", but in only shows "Income" YTD and the current month's transactions.

I checked last year's Dec. statement and it did not include the full year's transactions like it used to do before the conversion to their Brokerage system; it only included the Dec. transactions. That means you now have to retain the entire year's worth of paperwork in order to see all of your transactions.

That's definitely another step backwards for the so-called "upgrade".
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by schachtw » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:35 pm

Upon logging into your account, under account balances, there’s an option to download balances and transaction activity.

Simply pick the appropriate period (YTD) option, and for each account selected all transactions will be downloaded (sorted by account and date).

Hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by abuss368 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:20 pm

Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:52 pm
abuss368 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:01 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:16 pm
My Vanguard brokerage statements are "Year to Date". Not sure why others seem to be having problems getting their statements that way.

Call Vanguard and tell them your preference.
Mel -

Your "year to date statement" at year end (i.e. December statement) will show the transactions for all 12 months?
No. It's called "YTD", but in only shows "Income" YTD and the current month's transactions.

I checked last year's Dec. statement and it did not include the full year's transactions like it used to do before the conversion to their Brokerage system; it only included the Dec. transactions. That means you now have to retain the entire year's worth of paperwork in order to see all of your transactions.

That's definitely another step backwards for the so-called "upgrade".
Mel -

Do you know if this issue has been raised with Vanguard at the Bogleheads Conferences? That is a lot of statements to save.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mel Lindauer » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:45 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:20 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:52 pm
abuss368 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:01 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:16 pm
My Vanguard brokerage statements are "Year to Date". Not sure why others seem to be having problems getting their statements that way.

Call Vanguard and tell them your preference.
Mel -

Your "year to date statement" at year end (i.e. December statement) will show the transactions for all 12 months?
No. It's called "YTD", but in only shows "Income" YTD and the current month's transactions.

I checked last year's Dec. statement and it did not include the full year's transactions like it used to do before the conversion to their Brokerage system; it only included the Dec. transactions. That means you now have to retain the entire year's worth of paperwork in order to see all of your transactions.

That's definitely another step backwards for the so-called "upgrade".
Mel -

Do you know if this issue has been raised with Vanguard at the Bogleheads Conferences? That is a lot of statements to save.
I have made my Vanguard rep aware of a number of "downgrades" included in the so-called upgrade to brokerage. He's supposedly passed them on to the powers that be. However, so far, I haven't seen a resolution to any one of my complaints.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mike14 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:41 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:59 am
There are a few small features missing from the new brokerage accounts. [..] (2) You cannot automatically reinvestment dividends from one fund into another.
BrandonBogle wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:47 am
On the MF platform, you can tell fund A's dividends and/or capital gains to be [...] 3) invested into fund B. On the Brokerage platform, you cannot do #3.
Has the ability to automatically reinvestment dividends from one Vanguard mutual fund into another Vanguard mutual fund been restored?

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mike14 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:48 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:59 am
Now you can rebalance from an ETF to a Vanguard mutual fund the same day. (Vanguard covers the settlement float.) That would have taken 4 days under the old separate accounts (i.e., sell, settle 3 days later, transfer, buy).
Does that require margins to be activated?
This sounds like an excellent way to switch from ETF back into mutual funds without being out of the markets.

Curious why Vanguard allows going from MF to ETF, but not vice versa. I always thought it was because ETF settle 1 day after MF, but from what you are saying that doesn't appear to be the reason.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mike14 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:52 pm

Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:52 pm
It's called "YTD", but in only shows "Income" YTD and the current month's transactions.

I checked last year's Dec. statement and it did not include the full year's transactions like it used to do before the conversion to their Brokerage system; it only included the Dec. transactions. That means you now have to retain the entire year's worth of paperwork in order to see all of your transactions.
Has this issue been resolved?
Did the quarterly statements disappear as well?

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mel Lindauer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:52 pm

Mike14 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:52 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:52 pm
It's called "YTD", but in only shows "Income" YTD and the current month's transactions.

I checked last year's Dec. statement and it did not include the full year's transactions like it used to do before the conversion to their Brokerage system; it only included the Dec. transactions. That means you now have to retain the entire year's worth of paperwork in order to see all of your transactions.
Has this issue been resolved?
Did the quarterly statements disappear as well?
Not yet and not sure if it's going to be changed, but I sure hope so.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mike14 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:56 pm

I read that there is a way to downgrade back to the mutual fund only platform.
It would be interesting to know what the process looks like and if they make you apply for a new account, or if they do it all for you.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by boglesmind » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:47 am

523HRR wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:53 pm
I never understood the point of the "non-brokerage" account model: multiple account numbers, multiple 1099s, ... Converted our mutual fund holdings to a single brokerage account a couple years ago; no problems; much simpler.
+1
Same here. Converted about 2 years back and no major issues.

I expect there are many more folks who have no major issues with a brokerage account but they don't post on Bogleheads forum, compared to those who do have some serious issues.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by jhfenton » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:55 am

Mike14 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:48 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:59 am
Now you can rebalance from an ETF to a Vanguard mutual fund the same day. (Vanguard covers the settlement float.) That would have taken 4 days under the old separate accounts (i.e., sell, settle 3 days later, transfer, buy).
Does that require margins to be activated?
This sounds like an excellent way to switch from ETF back into mutual funds without being out of the markets.

Curious why Vanguard allows going from MF to ETF, but not vice versa. I always thought it was because ETF settle 1 day after MF, but from what you are saying that doesn't appear to be the reason.
No. You do not have to have margin active. You can even do it in retirement accounts.

And you can readily swap from a MF to an ETF on the same day. Just buy the ETF and then sell the necessary amount of the MF to cover it. You will even get a day of money market interest paid on the cash that sits there for a day before the ETF settles.

Going in the other direction, if you do have a margin account they will charge you a day of interest if you do the ETF to mutual fund swap (because the mutual fund buy settles a day before the ETF sale). But If you don't have a margin account, Vanguard just floats it.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by jhfenton » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:56 am

Mike14 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:41 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:59 am
There are a few small features missing from the new brokerage accounts. [..] (2) You cannot automatically reinvestment dividends from one fund into another.
BrandonBogle wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:47 am
On the MF platform, you can tell fund A's dividends and/or capital gains to be [...] 3) invested into fund B. On the Brokerage platform, you cannot do #3.
Has the ability to automatically reinvestment dividends from one Vanguard mutual fund into another Vanguard mutual fund been restored?
No. I'm skeptical that it ever will.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:27 am

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:55 am
Going in the other direction, if you do have a margin account they will charge you a day of interest if you do the ETF to mutual fund swap (because the mutual fund buy settles a day before the ETF sale). But If you don't have a margin account, Vanguard just floats it.
I'm not sure that's correct. One way you don't get the one days interest and the other way you don't pay the one day's interest.

We don't have a margin account at Vanguard but at Schwab we would not be charged that one day's interest that you describe.

At Vanguard Brokerage I can "pull" money from a linked bank that "settles" in two days and at the same time that I place the "pull" order I can place a buy order for a mutual fund that settle in only one day. No issues. No interest owed.

Edit: I found a transaction that I made at Vangaurd selling an ETF (T2) and buying a mutual fund (T1) the same day - no problem.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by sport » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:46 am

Mel Lindauer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:52 pm
Mike14 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:52 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:52 pm
It's called "YTD", but in only shows "Income" YTD and the current month's transactions.

I checked last year's Dec. statement and it did not include the full year's transactions like it used to do before the conversion to their Brokerage system; it only included the Dec. transactions. That means you now have to retain the entire year's worth of paperwork in order to see all of your transactions.
Has this issue been resolved?
Did the quarterly statements disappear as well?
Not yet and not sure if it's going to be changed, but I sure hope so.
We have a mutual fund account with a separate brokerage account. We just received our YTD statement for the third quarter. It shows the mutual fund account transactions from Jan thru Sep. It only shows brokerage account transactions for July thru Sep. The pages of the statement that show the brokerage account say "year-to-date" on them. However, the data is not YTD.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by tadamsmar » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:30 am

I suppose having a brokerage account might open you up to hack, pump, and dump. It would perhaps allow quicker exploitation of a hacked account. But it seems that such exploits are rare and you'd have to be hacked in the first place.

But if you have only mutual funds then they take a while to settle. Not sure how long it takes for the money from a sale to become available for reinvestment.

Perhaps if you had lots of money in a money market fund then that could be exploited more quickly.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:46 am

Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:27 am
The pages of the statement that show the brokerage account say "year-to-date" on them. However, the data is not YTD.
You might be mis-interpreting the report. The "year-to-date" refers to the totals. The "transaction" section is only for the current quarter.

I think on the old platform the reports might have had year-to-date transactions.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by jhfenton » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:49 am

Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:27 am
jhfenton wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:55 am
Going in the other direction, if you do have a margin account they will charge you a day of interest if you do the ETF to mutual fund swap (because the mutual fund buy settles a day before the ETF sale). But If you don't have a margin account, Vanguard just floats it.
I'm not sure that's correct. One way you don't get the one days interest and the other way you don't pay the one day's interest.

We don't have a margin account at Vanguard but at Schwab we would not be charged that one day's interest that you describe.

At Vanguard Brokerage I can "pull" money from a linked bank that "settles" in two days and at the same time that I place the "pull" order I can place a buy order for a mutual fund that settle in only one day. No issues. No interest owed.

Edit: I found a transaction that I made at Vangaurd selling an ETF (T2) and buying a mutual fund (T1) the same day - no problem.
I am quite sure. I see it all the time, including right now. Last week during the market drops, I added to a few ETF positions. Afterwards, I sold a corresponding amount of VSBSX (Vanguard Short-Term Treasury Index Admiral) to cover the ETF purchases. The next day, my account showed a money market balance equal to the amount of VSBSX I sold with an offsetting negative balance in "Total credits and debits" for the unsettled ETF purchases. When the last ETF purchase settled the balances netted out, and I received a money market dividend of $0.98. (I placed a buy order for $0.98 of VSBSX this morning.)

We did briefly have a margin account at Vanguard, and I was accustomed to selling an ETF and buying a mutual fund in our retirement accounts. But when I did it in our taxable margin account, we were dinged for two days of interest. (I just looked and found the transaction in November 2015. We had transferred out accounts to Vanguard in October. I sold VTEB/Vanguard Muni Bond ETF at T+3 that we purchased elsewhere and bought VOHIX/Vanguard OH Long-Term Tax Exempt at T+1. I was dinged with a small margin interest charge after everything settled.)

You don't have interest charged on the purchase and bank pull, because they credit bank pulls immediately.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:38 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:49 am
The next day, my account showed a money market balance equal to the amount of VSBSX I sold with an offsetting negative balance in "Total credits and debits" for the unsettled ETF purchases. When the last ETF purchase settled the balances netted out, and I received a money market dividend of $0.98.
Let me see if I understand.

You had a negative "Total Credit/Debit Balance" , OK.

The (negative) balance netted out on settlement date, OK.

What does the money market dividend have to do with it? If you were being charged interest the money market dividend would have been negative.

Are you sure that dividend was from your MM, or was it the accrued dividend on the VSBSX dividend that you sold?

I think it was the accrued dividend on the VSBSX.

:?
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by jhfenton » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:53 pm

Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:38 pm
Let me see if I understand.

You had a negative "Total Credit/Debit Balance" , OK.

The (negative) balance netted out on settlement date, OK.

What does the money market dividend have to do with it? If you were being charged interest the money market dividend would have been negative.

Are you sure that dividend was from your MM, or was it the accrued dividend on the VSBSX dividend that you sold?

I think it was the accrued dividend on the VSBSX.

:?
It wasn't an accrued dividend on the VSBSX because I still own VSBSX. Also, VSBSX doesn't declare/accrue daily. It declares and pays monthly.

Also, my transaction shows 10/15/2018 - VANGUARD FEDERAL MONEY MARKET FUND (Settlement Fund) - Dividend - $0.98. :beer

All I'm saying is that when the settlement period is in your favor--buy ETF, sell MF--Vanguard sweeps the amount to the Federal Money Market Fund and pays you interest on it for a day.

Here's what the process looks like.

Day 0
Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund $0.00.
Total credits and debits $0.00.

On Day 0 I buy 1 share of VSS for $105.00.
On Day 0 I sell $105.00 of VSBSX.

Day 1
Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund $105.00.
Total credits and debits -$105.00

Day 2
Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund $105.00.
Total credits and debits -$105.00

The purchase of VSS settles on Day 2, but they don't reflect that until overnight.

Day 3
Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund $0.01.
Total credits and debits $0.00.

Vanguard Federal Money Market Dividend received $0.01.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:05 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:53 pm
All I'm saying is that when the settlement period is in your favor--buy ETF, sell MF--Vanguard sweeps the amount to the Federal Money Market Fund and pays you interest on it for a day.
OK. I have seen that small credit and assumed it was accrued dividends from what I sold.

Now the question is what if you go the other way, sell the ETF (T2) and buy the mutual fund (T1) the same day. Do they charge you interest without a margin account? I don't have a transaction to verify the "interest" charge.

I do have a transaction that sold the MF and bought the ETF and it show a dividend not interest for the fund (VFIDX) I sold.

I'm confused but it's probably not worth worrying about it.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by jhfenton » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:33 pm

Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:05 pm
OK. I have seen that small credit and assumed it was accrued dividends from what I sold.

Now the question is what if you go the other way, sell the ETF (T2) and buy the mutual fund (T1) the same day. Do they charge you interest without a margin account? I don't have a transaction to verify the "interest" charge.

I do have a transaction that sold the MF and bought the ETF and it show a dividend not interest for the fund (VFIDX) I sold.

I'm confused but it's probably not worth worrying about it.
No. If you sell T+2 and buy T+1 in a non-margin account, they float the difference in settlement with no interest charge. That's why I was surprised the one time I did it in a margin account and got a small margin interest charge.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:47 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:33 pm
No. If you sell T+2 and buy T+1 in a non-margin account, they float the difference in settlement with no interest charge. That's why I was surprised the one time I did it in a margin account and got a small margin interest charge.
I agree that they float the difference. What I was questioning was whether they give you interest when going the other way in a non-margin account.

I think that in a margin account you get interest credit or debit in both cases and get neither interest credit/debit in both cases in a non-margin account.

The question then is whether that small credit amount that we see at Vanguard is not really a dividend but it is an interest credit instead.

Don't know. Don't really care. :D
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by jhfenton » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:51 pm

Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:47 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:33 pm
No. If you sell T+2 and buy T+1 in a non-margin account, they float the difference in settlement with no interest charge. That's why I was surprised the one time I did it in a margin account and got a small margin interest charge.
I agree that they float the difference. What I was questioning was whether they give you interest when going the other way in a non-margin account.

I think that in a margin account you get interest credit or debit in both cases and get neither interest credit/debit in both cases in a non-margin account.

The question then is whether that small credit amount that we see at Vanguard is not really a dividend but it is an interest credit instead.

Don't know. Don't really care. :D
I agree it doesn't matter much. :beer But in a non-margin account you do get money market interest for the difference in settlement period because they sweep the money to the settlement account. That was the example I gave up above, and was the source of my $0.98 dividend today.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Doc » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:25 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:51 pm
But in a non-margin account you do get money market interest for the difference in settlement period because they sweep the money to the settlement account.
My question was do you then have to pay interest going the other way?

I now see the one day balance increase in the MM account. I confused myself with the dividend posted on the next day. The interest on that one days balance in the MM account will not show up until the EOM.

So going the other way (buy mutual and sell ETF) do you see a negative balance in the MM account for that one day? You don't actually see the interest because it gets subtracted from what was earned on the MM fund that month.

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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by abuss368 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:07 pm

Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:46 am
Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:27 am
The pages of the statement that show the brokerage account say "year-to-date" on them. However, the data is not YTD.
You might be mis-interpreting the report. The "year-to-date" refers to the totals. The "transaction" section is only for the current quarter.

I think on the old platform the reports might have had year-to-date transactions.
They did.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by Mel Lindauer » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:57 pm

Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:46 am
Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:27 am
The pages of the statement that show the brokerage account say "year-to-date" on them. However, the data is not YTD.
You might be mis-interpreting the report. The "year-to-date" refers to the totals. The "transaction" section is only for the current quarter.

I think on the old platform the reports might have had year-to-date transactions.
Yes, the old platform was actually a REAL YTD because it showed all transactions YTD. Therefore, you only had to retain one statement to have all YTD transactions and then the December statement to have all of the transactions for the year.

As it is now, you have to retain 12 monthly statements to be able to see all transactions you've made in that year. That's not what most people would consider YTD, especially after coming off the previous method to what was called an "Upgrade". To me, and most folks I've talked to, that's more like a "downgrade" since it's a step backwards for the investors.
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Re: Vanguard has switched to brokerage only accounts

Post by heartwood » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:14 pm

Mel Lindauer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:57 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:46 am
Doc wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:27 am
The pages of the statement that show the brokerage account say "year-to-date" on them. However, the data is not YTD.
You might be mis-interpreting the report. The "year-to-date" refers to the totals. The "transaction" section is only for the current quarter.

I think on the old platform the reports might have had year-to-date transactions.
Yes, the old platform was actually a REAL YTD because it showed all transactions YTD. Therefore, you only had to retain one statement to have all YTD transactions and then the December statement to have all of the transactions for the year.

As it is now, you have to retain 12 monthly statements to be able to see all transactions you've made in that year. That's not what most people would consider YTD, especially after coming off the previous method to what was called an "Upgrade". To me, and most folks I've talked to, that's more like a "downgrade" since it's a step backwards for the investors.
Similar to the YTD transactions issue is that transaction balance information has also disappeared as far as I can tell. Both online and in statements, transactions are listed but the balance after each transaction is not shown. We use a Vanguard Advantage account as our main checking account. There are many transactions each month, each gets listed by date and amount, but none show the balance in the account other than at the end date for the fund. It makes it more difficult to find an error in your checkbook (actually an excel sheet) if you can't readily compare a balance on one date with the Vanguard listings.

If I'm missing it, please advise.

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