Market up but VTSAX down???

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Bodio
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Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by Bodio » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:00 pm

Hello,

Can someone explain this to me. I see that S&P 500 is up +1.5% today, the VB (Vanguard Small Cap ETF) is up +1.7%, but the VTSAX is down -0.4%.
How can that be? I thought VTSAX is tracking every single stock in the market. If anyone could explain that would be greatly appreciated.

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prudent
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by prudent » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:08 pm

VTSAX is a mutual fund. Mutual fund prices do not change during the trading day - only after market close. So the -0.4% change you see was based on yesterday's price. The price of VTSAX will be updated later today after the market closes.

livesoft
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by livesoft » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:11 pm

prudent wrote:VTSAX is a mutual fund. Mutual fund prices do not change during the trading day - only after market close. So the -0.4% change you see was based on yesterday's price. The price of VTSAX will be updated later today after the market closes.
The NAVs (prices) of mutual fund ticker symbols seem to be updated fastest at finance.yahoo.com, so one can get today's closing NAV of VTSAX around 6 pm eastern from there BEFORE it is updated at vanguard.com. HOWEVER, finance.yahoo.com (and morningstar.com) may also list the change from the previous day, but that change will be WRONG for at least another hour, if not more. Morningstar notes this by stating the actual DATEs (one for the NAV, a different one for the delta) which most people ignore. Don't ignore the dates and times. Check it out for yourself.
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vitaflo
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by vitaflo » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:14 pm

I almost always check my funds at 6:30pm Eastern for this reason. That's about when the price is updated everywhere.

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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by Taylor Larimore » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:22 pm

vitaflo wrote:I almost always check my funds at 6:30pm Eastern ...
vitaflo:

Why do you check so often?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

PandaBear
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by PandaBear » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:26 pm

If you want to know more or less what VTSAX will be before it is updated, look up VTI (the ETF share class of the same fund). Then take the percentage and multiply yesterday's closing price to it plus 1.

For example, today VTI closed up 1.35%. VTSAX closed yesterday at 59.28. VTSAX should be around 59.28 * 1.0135 = 60.08.

LateStarter1975
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by LateStarter1975 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:33 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
vitaflo wrote:I almost always check my funds at 6:30pm Eastern ...
vitaflo:

Why do you check so often?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
+1. I knew that comment will attract Taylor's attention, lol.
Debt is dangerous...simple is beautiful

jebmke
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by jebmke » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:34 pm

faster to do it in my head. Market up 3%-ish since I re-balanced. Target is 40% so no way it is near my trigger point -- no action required. Time for another glass of wine.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

ved
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by ved » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:36 pm

LateStarter1975 wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:
vitaflo wrote:I almost always check my funds at 6:30pm Eastern ...
vitaflo:

Why do you check so often?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
+1. I knew that comment will attract Taylor's attention, lol.
vitaflow didn't say s/he checks everyday. She said s/he checks at 6:30 pm (on the days that s/he checks).
At least, that's how I interpreted it.
Last edited by ved on Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Visitor
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by Visitor » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:38 pm

LateStarter1975 wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:
vitaflo wrote:I almost always check my funds at 6:30pm Eastern ...
vitaflo:

Why do you check so often?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
+1. I knew that comment will attract Taylor's attention, lol.
+2. The older Taylor gets, the faster he is in checking out all the threads in this forum. :wink:

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vitaflo
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by vitaflo » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:45 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
vitaflo wrote:I almost always check my funds at 6:30pm Eastern ...
vitaflo:

Why do you check so often?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
Taylor, I could have phrased that better. I did not mean to imply I check my funds every day at 6:30pm, just that when I do, I wait until then to get the most recent price. Today is a good example, I add new money to accounts on the 1st, and will wait until after 6:30 to see which funds are under-allocated and put new money towards those funds.

Jags4186
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by Jags4186 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:47 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
vitaflo wrote:I almost always check my funds at 6:30pm Eastern ...
vitaflo:

Why do you check so often?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
Fun to check when the market is rallying. Not so fun to check when it's going down.

livesoft
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by livesoft » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:52 pm

And 60.11 it is.
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FinancialDave
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by FinancialDave » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:07 pm

How about a little longer term thinking:

12 months VTSAX 26+ %, Vanguard 500 ETF 23+%

Dave
I love simulated data. It turns the impossible into the possible!

jebmke
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by jebmke » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:08 pm

livesoft wrote:And 60.11 it is.
and we have just under 22 hours to figure out what to do with that little tidbit of info. :idea:
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

fantasytensai
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by fantasytensai » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:25 pm

jebmke wrote:
livesoft wrote:And 60.11 it is.
and we have just under 22 hours to figure out what to do with that little tidbit of info. :idea:
Steak dinner?

livesoft
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by livesoft » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:33 pm

fantasytensai wrote:
jebmke wrote:
livesoft wrote:And 60.11 it is.
and we have just under 22 hours to figure out what to do with that little tidbit of info. :idea:
Steak dinner?
I use ETFs, so I had steak for lunch.
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jebmke
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by jebmke » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:46 pm

fantasytensai wrote:Steak dinner?
Only if you re-balanced to food before 4:00 EST. I normally do that just before the beginning of every month when I know what my bills look like.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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blueblock
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by blueblock » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:46 pm

I hold VTSAX at Vanguard and it updated at about 5:30p Central.

BW1985
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by BW1985 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:
vitaflo wrote:I almost always check my funds at 6:30pm Eastern ...
vitaflo:

Why do you check so often?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
Fun to check when the market is rallying. Not so fun to check when it's going down.
It's been great checking lately!
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

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jhfenton
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by jhfenton » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:53 pm

FinancialDave wrote:How about a little longer term thinking:

12 months VTSAX 26+ %, Vanguard 500 ETF 23+%

Dave
Small caps have outperformed, so total market has outperformed slightly. Vanguard's small cap value is up 36% in the last year.

sco
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Re: Market up but VTSAX down???

Post by sco » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:29 am

If I want to check things, I do one of the following. Normally just C.
A. login during the day and realize I am looking at yesterday's NAV prices
B. Wait until after 10pm EST (some of my accounts take forever to update)
C. Just have a watch list and include the matching ETF for the broader markets. VTI, VEU, BND. That is normally sufficient.

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