VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

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VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by oldcomputerguy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:50 am

Notification this morning from Vanguard, telling me that the ER on VTIAX has dropped from 0.12% to 0.11%

The downward pressure continues. :sharebeer
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by lgs88 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:16 am

It now matches the ER of FTIPX, Fidelity's new total international fund.
merely an interested amateur

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by Fudgie » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:04 am

:oops:
Last edited by Fudgie on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by Crushtheturtle » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:01 am

I'm slightly richer!
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by Blueskies123 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:19 am

IXUS has had .11% for a while, they are late to the game.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by jhfenton » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:24 am

Blueskies123 wrote:IXUS has had .11% for a while, they are late to the game.
Well, since Vanguard reports expense ratios in arrears, this means that VTIAX was actually at 0.11% ER last year.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by mhc » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:55 am

Awesome!

I can now retire 10 minutes earlier. :twisted:

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by Geologist » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:01 am

Good, so for every 1 million dollars you have in the fund, you will save an extra $100 per year (assuming no rounding). This supports mhc's estimate of how much sooner he can retire.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by alpenglow » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:05 am

mhc wrote:Awesome!

I can now retire 10 minutes earlier. :twisted:
Sweet deal!! 8-)

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by kolea » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:03 pm

The ER for VTIAX (and I think all Vanguard funds) does not include transaction costs so the actual expense is higher than the ER. Not sure about funds from Fido and iShares.
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by Whakamole » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:05 pm

The stated ER doesn't include lending income, which was substantial last year. This gets us closer and closer to a free fund :sharebeer

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by rtraud » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:50 pm

I noticed the reduction too. My Vanguard muni bond funds also ticked down from 0.20% to 0.19%. And, I just graduated to the Admiral shares of their REIT mutual fund, so it's a good day for me, fee-wise.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by linenfort » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:04 pm

oldcomputerguy wrote:Notification this morning from Vanguard, telling me that the ER on VTIAX has dropped from 0.12% to 0.11%
Nice to hear. I could have sworn I saw a similar notification about a lower ER on VWITX (Vanguard inter-term tax exempt, i.e. national munis), but now I can't find it.

Anyway, here are some recent lowerings from the end of last year:
https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip ... sExR122216

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by jhfenton » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:15 pm

kolea wrote:The ER for VTIAX (and I think all Vanguard funds) does not include transaction costs so the actual expense is higher than the ER. Not sure about funds from Fido and iShares.
None of them include trading costs in the expense ratio. That's not part of the definition.

Neither do they get to include securities lending revenue as an offset to the expense ratio, even if they return it to the fund (which Vanguard does). (The others do too, in part or in whole.)

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by Longtermgrowth » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Nice! The ER of the ETF equivalent (VXUS) now matches the Admiral Shares, so VXUS actually dropped 2 basis points.

I decided to check a few of their other international funds, and it looks like VYMI (Vanguard International High Dividend Yield ETF) went up 2 basis points in cost (0.30% to 0.32%). Isn't that kind of odd since VYMI looks to have already gathered over 300 million in assets under management in less than a year?

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by 92irish » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:33 pm

I also find it odd that VYMI (Vgd International High Dividend ETF + mutual fund shares) had their expense ratio go up. Especially since it is an index fund which to begin with already had a relatively high expense ratio. It is mostly an index with large cap developed country stocks, so I don't know why the expenses are so high - you'd wouldn't think trading costs and other issues would cause a high ratio expense (as an obscure index in a thinly traded emerging market might as an example). The mutual fund version even has buy-in and redemption fees to boot.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by montanagirl » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:54 pm

kolea wrote:The ER for VTIAX (and I think all Vanguard funds) does not include transaction costs so the actual expense is higher than the ER. Not sure about funds from Fido and iShares.
Uh, what's this..do they charge when you exchange between funds?

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by kolea » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:01 pm

montanagirl wrote:
kolea wrote:The ER for VTIAX (and I think all Vanguard funds) does not include transaction costs so the actual expense is higher than the ER. Not sure about funds from Fido and iShares.
Uh, what's this..do they charge when you exchange between funds?
No, those are costs for buying/selling securities within the fund.
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by grabiner » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:09 pm

This ends the expense advantage from splitting international into separate funds, which existed for a long time. With Developed Markets at 0.09%, and Emerging Markets at 0.15%, a portfolio containing both would have about the same 0.11% expense ratio as Total International. (It wouldn't be the same portfolio, as Emerging Markets Index includes China A-shares.)
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by whodidntante » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:11 pm

I'm glad to see Vanguard is finally competitive. :happy

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER

Post by baw703916 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:27 am

rtraud wrote:I noticed the reduction too. My Vanguard muni bond funds also ticked down from 0.20% to 0.19%. And, I just graduated to the Admiral shares of their REIT mutual fund, so it's a good day for me, fee-wise.
Actually the Admiral shares on the national muni funds went from 0.12% to 0.09% :)
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by badbreath » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:29 am

mhc » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:55 am

Awesome!

I can now retire 10 minutes earlier. :twisted:
very funny :beer
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by TIAX » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:56 am

If only TD Ameritrade would add VXUS to its commission-free ETF list.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by Longtermgrowth » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:26 am

TIAX wrote:If only TD Ameritrade would add VXUS to its commission-free ETF list.
How about VEU (Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US ETF)? It's on that commission free list and it looks like Vanguard lowered the ER of VEU to 0.11% as well.

Looking on Morningstar (M* needs to update the ER on their site for a number of Vanguard funds now), VEU has an average market cap of 27,164 Mil vs 19,559 Mil for VXUS. Could add VSS (Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Small-Cap ETF) in whatever percentage you're comfortable with for a lower overall market cap and more diversification.
VSS is also on that commission free list and Vanguard is showing an ER of 0.13% for VSS now too! It was at 0.17% yesterday, but even at that ER it has been mentioned a number of times that securities lending revenue covered the entire ER of VSS.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by triceratop » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:00 am

Longtermgrowth wrote:
TIAX wrote:If only TD Ameritrade would add VXUS to its commission-free ETF list.
How about VEU (Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US ETF)? It's on that commission free list and it looks like Vanguard lowered the ER of VEU to 0.11% as well.

Looking on Morningstar (M* needs to update the ER on their site for a number of Vanguard funds now), VEU has an average market cap of 27,164 Mil vs 19,559 Mil for VXUS. Could add VSS (Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Small-Cap ETF) in whatever percentage you're comfortable with for a lower overall market cap and more diversification.
VSS is also on that commission free list and Vanguard is showing an ER of 0.13% for VSS now too! It was at 0.17% yesterday, but even at that ER it has been mentioned a number of times that securities lending revenue covered the entire ER of VSS.
VEU is now an all-cap fund so VSS shouldn't even be necessary. VWO (soon to be at 0.14% ER), Vanguard Emerging Markets ETF, would be needed to complement VEU to somewhat closely approximate VXUS. VWO includes Chinese A-shares so it wouldn't be a perfect match.
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VEU vs VXUS Holdings

Post by EyeDee » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:00 am

.
Triceratop,

I believe you might be mistaken that VEU is now an all-cap fund. The following is from VEU's "Strategy and policy" page:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/FundsS ... IntExt=INT

"Strategy and policy

Investment strategy

Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US ETF is an exchange-traded share class of Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Index Fund, which employs a “passive management”—or indexing—investment approach designed to track the performance of the FTSE All-World ex US Index. The index includes approximately 2,200 stocks of companies in 46 countries, from both developed and emerging markets around the world. The fund attempts to replicate the target index by investing all, or substantially all, of its assets in the stocks that make up the index, holding each stock in approximately the same proportion as its weighting in the index."

In contrast to VXUS's "Strategy and policy" page:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/FundsS ... IntExt=INT

"Strategy and policy

Investment strategy

Vanguard Total International Stock ETF is an exchange-traded share class of Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund which employs an indexing investment approach designed to track the performance of the FTSE Global All Cap ex US Index, a free-float-adjusted market-capitalization-weighted index designed to measure equity market performance of companies located in developed and emerging markets, excluding the United States. The index includes more than 5,300 stocks of companies located in 46 countries. The fund invests substantially all of its assets in the common stocks included in its target index."
triceratop wrote: VEU is now an all-cap fund so VSS shouldn't even be necessary. VWO (soon to be at 0.14% ER), Vanguard Emerging Markets ETF, would be needed to complement VEU to somewhat closely approximate VXUS. VWO includes Chinese A-shares so it wouldn't be a perfect match.
Randy

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by triceratop » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:09 am

My apologies, i was thinking of VEA.
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by ruralavalon » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:45 am

oldcomputerguy wrote:Notification this morning from Vanguard, telling me that the ER on VTIAX has dropped from 0.12% to 0.11%

The downward pressure continues. :sharebeer
mhc wrote:Awesome!

I can now retire 10 minutes earlier. :twisted:
Awesome :D . I always enjoy it when they slice another 1/100 of a percent off the expense ratio of a fund we use, even though it means almost nothing in practical terms.

I guess we can now afford to go out to lunch today.

I guess this means that Fidelity Total International Index Fund Premium Class (FTIPX) now has to drop to 0.10%, to keep Fidelity's marketing blitz going.
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by Longtermgrowth » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:29 pm

triceratop wrote:My apologies, i was thinking of VEA.
So would a combo of VEA and VWO be a better recommendation if trying to get close to VXUS? I see that VEA has an average market cap of 21,023 Mil, so much closer to VXUS already - just lacking the 18.9% Emerging Markets that VWO would take care of. Those two are also available on that commission free list.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by triceratop » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:36 pm

Longtermgrowth wrote:
triceratop wrote:My apologies, i was thinking of VEA.
So would a combo of VEA and VWO be a better recommendation if trying to get close to VXUS? I see that VEA has an average market cap of 21,023 Mil, so much closer to VXUS already - just lacking the 18.9% Emerging Markets that VWO would take care of. Those two are also available on that commission free list.
If you are at Fidelity and want to use commission-free ETFs, yes. Note that using VWO and VEA is not precisely the same as VXUS due to differences in indices that VXUS, VEA, and VWO follow (look at VWO).
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by Longtermgrowth » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:13 pm

triceratop wrote: If you are at Fidelity and want to use commission-free ETFs, yes. Note that using VWO and VEA is not precisely the same as VXUS due to differences in indices that VXUS, VEA, and VWO follow (look at VWO).
I was just thinking about possible options for TIAX, or anyone else at TD Ameritrade, since they pointed out that VXUS wasn't available commission free there.

VEA and VWO would make it simple to tilt emerging if one desired. Then of course VSS also has a place as a third holding if wanting to tilt small. Overall the commission free options there aren't too bad - especially for those of us that like to tilt. :happy

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by triceratop » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:21 pm

Longtermgrowth wrote:
triceratop wrote: If you are at Fidelity and want to use commission-free ETFs, yes. Note that using VWO and VEA is not precisely the same as VXUS due to differences in indices that VXUS, VEA, and VWO follow (look at VWO).
I was just thinking about possible options for TIAX, or anyone else at TD Ameritrade, since they pointed out that VXUS wasn't available commission free there.

VEA and VWO would make it simple to tilt emerging if one desired. Then of course VSS also has a place as a third holding if wanting to tilt small. Overall the commission free options there aren't too bad - especially for those of us that like to tilt. :happy
Sorry, yes, TD Ameritrade. And yes, that sounds like a good plan.
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by jhfenton » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:42 pm

As of today, VWO/VEMAX is officially at 0.14%, and VSS/VFSVX is @ 0.13%/0.27%.

VEA/VTMGX is at 0.07% according to the annual report, but it won't be official until the April prospectus comes out.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by jrbdmb » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:50 pm

Also, as of today VFSVX (Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Small-Cap Index Fund Investor Shares) ER dropped from 0.31% to 0.27%. I use this fund in my IRA to balance out my 401K where the international fund has only large cap stocks.

Alas, I'm still patiently waiting for an Admiral Shares class of this fund to open ...

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by jhfenton » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:58 pm

jrbdmb wrote:Alas, I'm still patiently waiting for an Admiral Shares class of this fund to open ...
Me too.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by linenfort » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:22 pm

ruralavalon wrote: I always enjoy it when they slice another 1/100 of a percent off the expense ratio of a fund we use, even though it means almost nothing in practical terms.

I guess we can now afford to go out to lunch today.
Hey, if someone dropped the equivalent in cash in my lap, that would be enough to make me smile. Knowing that it keeps happening, to several funds and over several years...it's rather significant. :happy

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by Longtermgrowth » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:53 pm

linenfort wrote:
ruralavalon wrote: I always enjoy it when they slice another 1/100 of a percent off the expense ratio of a fund we use, even though it means almost nothing in practical terms.

I guess we can now afford to go out to lunch today.
Hey, if someone dropped the equivalent in cash in my lap, that would be enough to make me smile. Knowing that it keeps happening, to several funds and over several years...it's rather significant. :happy
Very true. Plus, when factoring in securities lending revenue, some of these funds have close to a zero cost to hold - or even negative in the case of VSS (thank you, triceratop for pointing out the securities lending aspect in previous threads).

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As of 02/23/2017, the expense ratio on your Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral Shares has changed...

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:20 pm

Less is more:

"As of 02/23/2017, the expense ratio on your Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral Shares has changed from 0.12% to 0.11%." :happy
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by triceratop » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:23 pm

^^ I merged arcticpineapple's thread into here.
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by SpringMan » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:53 pm

Today was notified VSS has been lowered to .13% too. :)
Best Wishes, SpringMan

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by MittensMoney » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:07 pm

I'm a little confused, why would anyone pay 0.11% for VTIAX when VTI is only 0.05%?

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by Duckie » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:32 pm

MittensMoney wrote:I'm a little confused, why would anyone pay 0.11% for VTIAX when VTI is only 0.05%?
Because VTI is total US stock and VTIAX is total international stock.

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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by oldcomputerguy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:46 pm

Duckie wrote:
MittensMoney wrote:I'm a little confused, why would anyone pay 0.11% for VTIAX when VTI is only 0.05%?
Because VTI is total US stock and VTIAX is total international stock.
What he said. As a side note, there are some times when mutual funds are easier to deal with (automatic investment comes to mind).
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Re: VTIAX now has 0.11% ER [Vanguard Total Int'l Stock, Admiral Class]

Post by grabiner » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:04 pm

grabiner wrote:This ends the expense advantage from splitting international into separate funds, which existed for a long time. With Developed Markets at 0.09%, and Emerging Markets at 0.15%, a portfolio containing both would have about the same 0.11% expense ratio as Total International. (It wouldn't be the same portfolio, as Emerging Markets Index includes China A-shares.)
Other posts report that Developed Markets Admiral is down to 0.07%, which has not yet been reported, so the anomaly remains; splitting Total International into two funds decreases the expenses slightly.
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