BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

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VFANX
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BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby VFANX » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:47 pm

I have been using Bank of America for my HSA contributions. I was using the Vanguard S&P stock fund (VFINX), Vanguard Total international stock fund (VGTSX), and the TIPS bond (VIPSX) fund as my investions with a blended ER of about 19 basis points. I liked the "banky"ness of the HSA with the debit card and the investment options all things considered (I know Vanguard Admiral shares can be fund elsewhere).

I got a email today from BofA and they are getting rid of the Vanguard options altogether. They are being replaced by a Blackrock S&P fund (WFSPX ER 4 basis points) and a Blackrock total international stock fund (BDOKX ER 46 basis points). The best bond fund will be the venerable PIMCO total return (PTTRX) at 46 basis points as well.

I have 24K in my HSA now and have been using 50/50 stock bond split. I have been somewhat conservative with the HSA as it could be used as a medical emergency fund to pay for COBRA tax free if I loose my job. My new blended ER would be about 36 basis points with the blackrock and PIMCO products.

Although we all can suffer for lowERitis, i think I will be moving on to either Alliant Credit Union, HSA Bank, or HSA administrators.

Does anyone have any strong feelings for or against the above said HSA accounts. I did read the Wiki but would like some individual opinions.

Warmest Regards,

VFANX

centrifuge41
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby centrifuge41 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:55 pm

Just use the Blackrock S&P 500 fund, and fill out the rest of your portfolio elsewhere. Super cheap!

If you really want to ditch the BofA HSA, I think that HSA Bank is a good choice.

HSA Administrators charges 25bps on top of whatever Vanguard charges.

HSA Bank charges no fees if the main interest-bearing account has at least $5000 in it. The rest may then be invested through the TD Ameritrade self-directed option. There are no fees to buy one of a bunch of low-cost index ETFs, and no fees to sell either, if no buy has occurred in the last month.

VFANX
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby VFANX » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:05 pm

Centrifuge41, you have a good point about just loading up on the Blackrock fund. I have used Vanguard target date funds exclusively in my other buckets (401k, Roth) to keep myself from playing with my food (tilts, tactical this or that), but maybe I just should overweight the S&P a bit more in comparison to the Vanguard 60/40 domestic/international split.

As many have said a perfect plan is the enemy of a good plan.

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dodecahedron
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Bank of America HSA: new investment menu

Postby dodecahedron » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:10 pm

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

B of A HSA has offered investor class shares of Vanguard's 500, inflation protected bond, and Total International funds, choices I was pretty happy with.

However, they just today announced a new lineup. They are getting rid of the Vanguard choices effective next month but they are adding the Blackrock 500 index fund (with an ER of 0.04).

http://healthaccounts.bankofamerica.com/core.pdf

an_asker
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Re: Bank of America HSA: new investment menu

Postby an_asker » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:11 pm

Is this through your workplace or is it open to the public? If the latter, what are the gotchas/fees etc? Thanks!!

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dodecahedron
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Re: Bank of America HSA: new investment menu

Postby dodecahedron » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:19 pm

an_asker wrote:Is this through your workplace or is it open to the public? If the latter, what are the gotchas/fees etc? Thanks!!


It is not through my workplace (though others may get it that way.) I get it as member of public. There is a monthly fee of $4.50, but that is waived for me because I am a "Platinum Preferred" B of A customer, a status I maintain by virtue of having at least $100K in assets at B of A and/or Merrill Edge. (In my case, I just hold $100K of Vanguard ETFs in a fee-free Merrill Edge Roth IRA to earn this status.)

Only other gotcha is that only my HSA assets in excess of $1,000 can be invested.

mpsz
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Re: Bank of America HSA: new investment menu

Postby mpsz » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:46 pm

dodecahedron wrote:There is a monthly fee of $4.50, but that is waived for me because I am a "Platinum Preferred" B of A customer


Did you have to ask for this, or did it happen automatically? I've been researching Preferred Rewards and have found nothing on whether the HSA fee is waived or if HSA assets count towards the tiers.

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dodecahedron
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Re: Bank of America HSA: new investment menu

Postby dodecahedron » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:48 pm

I had to ask. (And when I did, they not only stopped charging me, they refunded the monthly fees I had already been charged.) Also, I have no idea whether assets in HSA count towards tiers because I was already in top tier based on my Vanguard ETF assets held in my Merrill Edge Roth IRA.

centrifuge41
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby centrifuge41 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:39 am

If you would like to establish balance, then you still can.

HSA: Blackrock S&P 500 fund
Elsewhere, such as your Roth IRA or 401k: load up on small caps or extended market indices.

Link

Pale Horse
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby Pale Horse » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:54 am

Is your HSA w/ BofA through an employer? How did you receive notification of the change?

My employer's HSA is through BofA and I haven't heard/seen anything.

mhalley
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby mhalley » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:27 pm

With that much money you might check out select account.
https://www.selectaccount.com/

samsnow25
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Re: Bank of America HSA: new investment menu

Postby samsnow25 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:51 pm

OP, thanks for starting the topic.
I was happy with Vanguard offerings as well and had allocated across all 3 (S&P 500, International and Bond). Even though S&P expense ratio went down, choices for international and bonds are not that great. I might move all to S&P 500 fund.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby LadyGeek » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:23 pm

I merged dodecahedron's thread into here. The combined thread is now in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum (investing news).
To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby *3!4!/5! » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:23 pm

VFANX wrote:...I got a email today from BofA and they are getting rid of the Vanguard options altogether. They are being replaced by a Blackrock S&P fund (WFSPX ER 4 basis points) and a Blackrock total international stock fund (BDOKX ER 46 basis points). The best bond fund will be the venerable PIMCO total return (PTTRX) at 46 basis points as well. ...

FWIW, for the ER of BlackRock Total Intl ex US Idx K BDOKX, it says
https://www.blackrock.com/investing/pro ... ass-k-fund
Net, Excluding Investment Related Expenses 0.11%
Gross Expense Ratio 0.46%
so maybe it is cheap, though I find it hard to figure out what is going on with BlackRock funds, so I don't know what ER figure to trust. (Also, it's just large cap, not all cap.)

SobeCane
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Re: Bank of America HSA: new investment menu

Postby SobeCane » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:31 pm

dodecahedron wrote:[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

B of A HSA has offered investor class shares of Vanguard's 500, inflation protected bond, and Total International funds, choices I was pretty happy with.

However, they just today announced a new lineup. They are getting rid of the Vanguard choices effective next month but they are adding the Blackrock 500 index fund (with an ER of 0.04).

http://healthaccounts.bankofamerica.com/core.pdf


Isn't this a positive change? The new fund will be at a quarter of the price of the Vanguard S&P 500 fund. Will we be transferred to the Blackrock fund automatically? I never received notice about the change and have my full investment account balance in the Vanguard S&P 500.

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dodecahedron
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Re: Bank of America HSA: new investment menu

Postby dodecahedron » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:37 pm

SobeCane wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

B of A HSA has offered investor class shares of Vanguard's 500, inflation protected bond, and Total International funds, choices I was pretty happy with.

However, they just today announced a new lineup. They are getting rid of the Vanguard choices effective next month but they are adding the Blackrock 500 index fund (with an ER of 0.04).

http://healthaccounts.bankofamerica.com/core.pdf


Isn't this a positive change? The new fund will be at a quarter of the price of the Vanguard S&P 500 fund. Will we be transferred to the Blackrock fund automatically? I never received notice about the change and have my full investment account balance in the Vanguard S&P 500.


The letter says that folks with investment holdings in the three Vanguard funds they are dropping will simply be moved to cash if we don't act before the mid-March change. So we will have to take the initiative and buy whatever replacement funds we choose. I am currently in the Vanguard inflation protected and Total International funds. I plan to move to Blackrock 500 in my HSA and readjust my portfolio elsewhere to keep things balanced.

JD2775
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby JD2775 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:57 pm

I'm not sure this holds true across the board...

I have B of A HSA through my employer, all Vanguard funds within, have received no email about this, and just logged into my account and see no mention of it anywhere.

Maybe it only applies to a certain segment of people?

I have allocation in:

VANGUARD TOTAL INTL STK INDEX VGTSX
VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET IDX VBMFX
VANGUARD 500 INDEX INV VFINX
VANGUARD SMALL CAP INDEX FUND NAESX
VANGUARD MID CAP INDEX FUND VIMSX

Edit: Just realized I was making that account unnecessarily complicated, I hadn't looked at it in a long time. Trimmed it down to 2 funds :)

afkjoe
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby afkjoe » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:00 pm

SobeCane wrote:Isn't this a positive change? The new fund will be at a quarter of the price of the Vanguard S&P 500 fund.


With respect to the S&P 500 fund, it is absolutely a positive change. The loss of the 0.20% TIPS fund is disappointing as there isn't another fixed income alternative at this ER level now. Also, the Blackrock international fund is only a cheaper option as long as the fee waiver is in effect. Otherwise, its fairly equivalent to Vanguard with respect to EM + Developed market mix though it does lack some mid and small cap exposure that Vanguard has in their fund.

In my opinion, the most positive change would have been just a conversion from Investor class to Admiral class of the existing Vanguard fund offerings...

I have ~3k in the Vanguard TIPS fund and the rest in the Vanguard Total International fund. I'll likely go full Blackrock international fund BDOKX given the changes.

*3!4!/5! wrote:FWIW, for the ER of BlackRock Total Intl ex US Idx K BDOKX, it says
https://www.blackrock.com/investing/pro ... ass-k-fund
Net, Excluding Investment Related Expenses 0.11%
Gross Expense Ratio 0.46%
so maybe it is cheap, though I find it hard to figure out what is going on with BlackRock funds, so I don't know what ER figure to trust. (Also, it's just large cap, not all cap.)


According to the prospectus, the fee waiver is good until April 30, 2018 so 0.11% is the price we'll pay until then (subject to a 90 day notice of fee waiver termination).
Last edited by afkjoe on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby *3!4!/5! » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:28 pm

mhalley wrote:With that much money you might check out select account.
https://www.selectaccount.com/
I moved (most of) my $20k balance from HealthEquity to SelectAccount. It's worth a look for the OP. Also consider
http://www.thehsaauthority.com/hsa_inve ... vices.aspx
and Saturna
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=135513

Yohanson
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby Yohanson » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:26 am

Pale Horse wrote:Is your HSA w/ BofA through an employer? How did you receive notification of the change?

My employer's HSA is through BofA and I haven't heard/seen anything.


Mine is through my employer and I received notification.

letsgobobby
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby letsgobobby » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:15 pm

I just got the letter tonight.

Significant downgrade for me, as 100% of my HSA was invested in the Vanguard total international stock index fund. Definitely not happy with more than doubling the fee; although on $30,000, 0.27% per year is... $77! Actually, that is real money.

EIther have to buy the blackrock S&P, and further overweight US large cap, or dump the whole HSA, withdraw all eligible funds, and invest in taxable.

They only added these Vanguard funds in 2013. Silly to me that just 3.5 years later, they change their mind.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby *3!4!/5! » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:57 pm

letsgobobby wrote:I just got the letter tonight.

Significant downgrade for me, as 100% of my HSA was invested in the Vanguard total international stock index fund. Definitely not happy with more than doubling the fee; although on $30,000, 0.27% per year is... $77! Actually, that is real money.

EIther have to buy the blackrock S&P, and further overweight US large cap, or dump the whole HSA, withdraw all eligible funds, and invest in taxable.

They only added these Vanguard funds in 2013. Silly to me that just 3.5 years later, they change their mind.


That's pretty extreme. Why not simply transfer to another HSA?

letsgobobby
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby letsgobobby » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:01 pm

*3!4!/5! wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:I just got the letter tonight.

Significant downgrade for me, as 100% of my HSA was invested in the Vanguard total international stock index fund. Definitely not happy with more than doubling the fee; although on $30,000, 0.27% per year is... $77! Actually, that is real money.

EIther have to buy the blackrock S&P, and further overweight US large cap, or dump the whole HSA, withdraw all eligible funds, and invest in taxable.

They only added these Vanguard funds in 2013. Silly to me that just 3.5 years later, they change their mind.


That's pretty extreme. Why not simply transfer to another HSA?

if the blackrock fee waiver is in effect, I'll stay in at 0.11%.

If the waiver goes away, well I was already thinking about emptying my HSA to avoid hording paperwork for a few decades and this would probably tip me over the edge.

If there is another HSA option with no account maintenance fees that lets me maintain the income tax and FICA savings of the BOA HSA, I'll look into it. Most I've seen have fees.

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ClevrChico
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby ClevrChico » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:20 pm

JD2775 wrote:I'm not sure this holds true across the board...

I have B of A HSA through my employer, all Vanguard funds within, have received no email about this, and just logged into my account and see no mention of it anywhere.

Maybe it only applies to a certain segment of people?

I have allocation in:

VANGUARD TOTAL INTL STK INDEX VGTSX
VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET IDX VBMFX
VANGUARD 500 INDEX INV VFINX
VANGUARD SMALL CAP INDEX FUND NAESX
VANGUARD MID CAP INDEX FUND VIMSX

Edit: Just realized I was making that account unnecessarily complicated, I hadn't looked at it in a long time. Trimmed it down to 2 funds :)


I have the same situation. I hold VBMFX in my HSA, and there's no mention of any changes here:

http://healthaccounts.bankofamerica.com/core.pdf

VBMFX isn't even listed as an option. Employer plans must be unique. (For now.)

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby letsgobobby » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:24 pm

ClevrChico wrote:
JD2775 wrote:I'm not sure this holds true across the board...

I have B of A HSA through my employer, all Vanguard funds within, have received no email about this, and just logged into my account and see no mention of it anywhere.

Maybe it only applies to a certain segment of people?

I have allocation in:

VANGUARD TOTAL INTL STK INDEX VGTSX
VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET IDX VBMFX
VANGUARD 500 INDEX INV VFINX
VANGUARD SMALL CAP INDEX FUND NAESX
VANGUARD MID CAP INDEX FUND VIMSX

Edit: Just realized I was making that account unnecessarily complicated, I hadn't looked at it in a long time. Trimmed it down to 2 funds :)


I have the same situation. I hold VBMFX in my HSA, and there's no mention of any changes here:

http://healthaccounts.bankofamerica.com/core.pdf

VBMFX isn't even listed as an option. Employer plans must be unique. (For now.)

i have an employer BOA plan, and I got the letter tonight.

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ClevrChico
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby ClevrChico » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:37 am

letsgobobby wrote:i have an employer BOA plan, and I got the letter tonight.


Darn! Thanks for the heads up.

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billyv
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby billyv » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:26 pm

BoA and Wells Fargo have been trading the title of "Least Customer-Friendly Big Bank" back and forth for years. And I say that as a longtime BoA customer. :annoyed

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby ftobin » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:48 pm

Vanguard's Total International fund VGTSX has outperformed the new Blackrock fund BDOKX by about 0.5% for the past 1, 3, and 5 years, so one might think it's due the small-cap exposure instead of just Large-Mid. However, even the Vanguard FTSE ex-US fund VFWIX, which has similar cap exposures, has beaten it by 0.3% over 1 and 5 years (over 3 years by 0.7%!).

The Blackrock fund has trailed its benchmark MSCI ACWI Ex USA NR by about 0.10% , so this seems to be more about benchmark quality than anything else.

This switch does not seem in the interest of BofA's customers. I'll be looking to transfer as much as possible out of this employer-selected account into HSA Bank.

afkjoe
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby afkjoe » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:16 am

ftobin wrote:This switch does not seem in the interest of BofA's customers. I'll be looking to transfer as much as possible out of this employer-selected account into HSA Bank.


Couldn't agree more. I'm debating doing the same thing.

letsgobobby
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby letsgobobby » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:21 pm

afkjoe wrote:
ftobin wrote:This switch does not seem in the interest of BofA's customers. I'll be looking to transfer as much as possible out of this employer-selected account into HSA Bank.


Couldn't agree more. I'm debating doing the same thing.

what is the deal with HSA bank? If I transfer my current account there, can I still receive my paycheck-deducted employee HSA contributions, and do I still get to deduct my FICA?

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby centrifuge41 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:34 pm

You have to load funds directly into an HSA from payroll deduction to get the FICA deduction. So, keep your existing HSA, and if desired, also open up an HSA Bank account. You should be allowed to roll over from your employer's chosen HSA to HSA Bank 1x/year.

letsgobobby
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby letsgobobby » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:09 pm

centrifuge41 wrote:You have to load funds directly into an HSA from payroll deduction to get the FICA deduction. So, keep your existing HSA, and if desired, also open up an HSA Bank account. You should be allowed to roll over from your employer's chosen HSA to HSA Bank 1x/year.

I see.

Last time I was with HSA Bank, they had at least two monthly fees that totaled to around $40 per year. Is that still the case?

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby centrifuge41 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:07 pm

I believe it. You need $5000 or more in the deposit account to avoid all monthly fees.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby ftobin » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:36 pm

centrifuge41 wrote:I believe it. You need $5000 or more in the deposit account to avoid all monthly fees.

Personally, I think it's a waste to try to avoid the fees. I think they came to around $60/year for me, but if you have invested that $5000 you'll likely come out better, given that a $5000 total bond ETF holding will likely return over $100/year. If your HSA Bank holdings are in stock ETFs your expected returns will be even higher (though with more volatility), so it should be even more a no-brainer.

I only keep about $200 in the deposit account. This is to handle a couple of years' fees in case I forget to manage the funds available.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby *3!4!/5! » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:09 pm

ftobin wrote:
centrifuge41 wrote:I believe it. You need $5000 or more in the deposit account to avoid all monthly fees.

Personally, I think it's a waste to try to avoid the fees. I think they came to around $60/year for me, but if you have invested that $5000 you'll likely come out better, given that a $5000 total bond ETF holding will likely return over $100/year. If your HSA Bank holdings are in stock ETFs your expected returns will be even higher (though with more volatility), so it should be even more a no-brainer.

I only keep about $200 in the deposit account. This is to handle a couple of years' fees in case I forget to manage the funds available.


Shouldn't you compare it to returns on cashlike holdings, otherwise the difference is mostly due to change in allocation?

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby ftobin » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:21 pm

*3!4!/5! wrote:Shouldn't you compare it to returns on cashlike holdings, otherwise the difference is mostly due to change in allocation?

Yes, it's not apples-to-apples, but since I don't want any apples in my HSA, but oranges instead (more aggressive holdings), it's still something to point out. If you want apples (cash like holdings), don't go with HSA Bank. Go there for oranges.

APR on HSA Bank's deposit account are about 0.10%. If you want tax-sheltered cash, do it in another vehicle at another institution where you can get 1.00%.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby SobeCane » Tue May 16, 2017 4:51 pm

Just wanted to provide a heads up. Bank of America HSA recently did a systems wide upgrade to their website towards the end of April. All of my investments were automatically liquidated to cash. Just logged into the new website to set up the investments again. Not happy.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby VFANX » Tue May 16, 2017 6:16 pm

Original poster here.

Sorry to hear your problems SobeCane.

I ultimately transferred my HSA to Alliant Credit Union. You get the low cost vanguard domestic and international stock funds as well as the Barclays agg bond fund. Cash gets about 0.65% return and the investment cost about $6 bucks a month.

I just felt that BofA moved my cheese, so I made a change.

Take care,

VFANX

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby indexfundfan » Tue May 16, 2017 8:25 pm

I thought the BofA HSA looks pretty interesting if the monthly fees can be waived with "platinum preferred" status.

Available investments and the current ERs include

WFSPX, S&P 500 index, ER 0.04%
BDOKX, Total international index, ER 0.11%
IUTIX, Treasury index, ER 0.2%
My signature has been deleted.

ftobin
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby ftobin » Tue May 16, 2017 10:54 pm

indexfundfan wrote:Available investments and the current ERs include

WFSPX, S&P 500 index, ER 0.04%
BDOKX, Total international index, ER 0.11%
IUTIX, Treasury index, ER 0.2%

Expense ratios are not enough to look at. BDOKX, Blackrock's "Total International", has underperformed Vanguard's Total International (VTIAX) by about 0.50% annually on a 3 and 5 year basis. It has not trailed its own benchmark well as well, moving between -0.5 % on a 1-year basis and +0.13% on a 5-year basis.

VFANX, thanks for the heads-up about Alliant's offering. If I hadn't already sent paperwork to transfer to HSA Bank I'd go with Alliant as well.

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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby SobeCane » Wed May 17, 2017 7:57 am

ftobin wrote:
indexfundfan wrote:Available investments and the current ERs include

WFSPX, S&P 500 index, ER 0.04%
BDOKX, Total international index, ER 0.11%
IUTIX, Treasury index, ER 0.2%

Expense ratios are not enough to look at. BDOKX, Blackrock's "Total International", has underperformed Vanguard's Total International (VTIAX) by about 0.50% annually on a 3 and 5 year basis. It has not trailed its own benchmark well as well, moving between -0.5 % on a 1-year basis and +0.13% on a 5-year basis.

VFANX, thanks for the heads-up about Alliant's offering. If I hadn't already sent paperwork to transfer to HSA Bank I'd go with Alliant as well.



This is very interesting. How does WFSPX with its .04% ER compare to the S&P 500 index?

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indexfundfan
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby indexfundfan » Wed May 17, 2017 8:50 am

ftobin wrote:
indexfundfan wrote:Available investments and the current ERs include

WFSPX, S&P 500 index, ER 0.04%
BDOKX, Total international index, ER 0.11%
IUTIX, Treasury index, ER 0.2%

Expense ratios are not enough to look at. BDOKX, Blackrock's "Total International", has underperformed Vanguard's Total International (VTIAX) by about 0.50% annually on a 3 and 5 year basis. It has not trailed its own benchmark well as well, moving between -0.5 % on a 1-year basis and +0.13% on a 5-year basis.

VFANX, thanks for the heads-up about Alliant's offering. If I hadn't already sent paperwork to transfer to HSA Bank I'd go with Alliant as well.

If I guess correctly, BDOKX only dropped its ER recently, explaining the under performance in its past years.
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indexfundfan
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby indexfundfan » Wed May 17, 2017 8:56 am

Don't know if there was a typo, but this post says that ER of BDOKX used to be 1.2%!

viewtopic.php?t=162233
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letsgobobby
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby letsgobobby » Wed May 17, 2017 9:08 am

indexfundfan wrote:Don't know if there was a typo, but this post says that ER of BDOKX used to be 1.2%!
h
viewtopic.php?t=162233

I've been willing to attribute the underpermance to the higher ER. now that it is lower I expect the performance to improve.

ftobin
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby ftobin » Wed May 17, 2017 9:25 am

letsgobobby wrote:
indexfundfan wrote:Don't know if there was a typo, but this post says that ER of BDOKX used to be 1.2%!
h
viewtopic.php?t=162233

I've been willing to attribute the underpermance to the higher ER. now that it is lower I expect the performance to improve.

Perhaps that was the gross expense ratio, not net. According to Morningstar the expense ratios for the past few years are:
2013: 0.34
2014: 0.15
2015: 0.13
2016: 0.11

Still unsatisfactorily trailed the benchmark. I've come to learn that if someone is removing access to Vanguard funds, it's not for my benefit. I'll be paying someone more someplace.

letsgobobby
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby letsgobobby » Wed May 17, 2017 9:58 am

ftobin wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:
indexfundfan wrote:Don't know if there was a typo, but this post says that ER of BDOKX used to be 1.2%!
h
viewtopic.php?t=162233

I've been willing to attribute the underpermance to the higher ER. now that it is lower I expect the performance to improve.

Perhaps that was the gross expense ratio, not net. According to Morningstar the expense ratios for the past few years are:
2013: 0.34
2014: 0.15
2015: 0.13
2016: 0.11

Still unsatisfactorily trailed the benchmark. I've come to learn that if someone is removing access to Vanguard funds, it's not for my benefit. I'll be paying someone more someplace.

thanks for that. so as I asked above, am I really better off moving? all fees are waived through boa because our employer uses it. elsewhere i may get nickel and dimed to death.

SobeCane
Posts: 246
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby SobeCane » Wed May 17, 2017 11:04 am

letsgobobby wrote:
ftobin wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:
indexfundfan wrote:Don't know if there was a typo, but this post says that ER of BDOKX used to be 1.2%!
h
viewtopic.php?t=162233

I've been willing to attribute the underpermance to the higher ER. now that it is lower I expect the performance to improve.

Perhaps that was the gross expense ratio, not net. According to Morningstar the expense ratios for the past few years are:
2013: 0.34
2014: 0.15
2015: 0.13
2016: 0.11

Still unsatisfactorily trailed the benchmark. I've come to learn that if someone is removing access to Vanguard funds, it's not for my benefit. I'll be paying someone more someplace.

thanks for that. so as I asked above, am I really better off moving? all fees are waived through boa because our employer uses it. elsewhere i may get nickel and dimed to death.


Would depend on the account value. You can do the math to see if the ER becomes greater at a certain account value than the fixed monthly fees.

*3!4!/5!
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby *3!4!/5! » Fri May 19, 2017 7:29 pm

SobeCane wrote:Just wanted to provide a heads up. Bank of America HSA recently did a systems wide upgrade to their website towards the end of April. All of my investments were automatically liquidated to cash. Just logged into the new website to set up the investments again. Not happy.

What?! Did this happen to anything else? That's absolutely terrible. What have you done to get it fixed? Was there any warning?

I doubt I would use BoA HSA anyway (even with Preferred Rewards status), though I do use Merrill Edge (for just enough for that status).

I definitely want to be aware of any custodian that is prone to randomly liquidating assets. It's pretty hard to "stay the course" if your holdings can be randomly liquidated at any time. Is there any more information that could help us understand this. I think any such case of random liquidation warrants a new thread to warn people.

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dodecahedron
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby dodecahedron » Fri May 19, 2017 8:07 pm

*3!4!/5! wrote:
SobeCane wrote:Just wanted to provide a heads up. Bank of America HSA recently did a systems wide upgrade to their website towards the end of April. All of my investments were automatically liquidated to cash. Just logged into the new website to set up the investments again. Not happy.

What?! Did this happen to anything else?


Yes, it happened to me too.

*3!4!/5! wrote:That's absolutely terrible. What have you done to get it fixed?


I discovered it pretty quickly fortunately and just moved the funds back into the fund where I had been before.

*3!4!/5! wrote:Was there any warning?


Yes, sort of, I think, but apparently I didn't interpret it correctly. Apparently on the new platform, you need to have yourself set up for automatic investment at all times OR ELSE you will be periodically swept into cash. This is kind of weird, and I didn't really understand what the warning was telling me to do. I knew that I had to move money out of my old Vanguard fund into a new offering before mid-March, but I didn't realize that if I didn't set up automatic investing, I wouldn't be able to *stay in* the new investment I chose, but would be swept out and liquidated periodically. I think I am okay now--and, as I said, I discovered it pretty quickly so I wasn't out of the market very long.

*3!4!/5!
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Re: BofA HSA dropping Vanguard Funds

Postby *3!4!/5! » Fri May 19, 2017 8:27 pm

If there were losses from being put out of the market, I would insist on being made whole (unless their prior disclosures really were adequate warning).


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