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Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:56 pm
by sperry8
Just finished reading this article about the major banks who rigged the silver market
http://www.minyanville.com/business-new ... 6/id/58997

Stunning stuff. Will be interesting to see what penalties, if any, come of it.

If true, it's another reason why it's hard to trade against the market. At least when we buy & hold over the long term, these sorts of short term manipulations don't matter as much. The boglehead way wins again.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:59 pm
by TomCat96
sperry8 wrote:Just finished reading this article about the major banks who rigged the silver market
http://www.minyanville.com/business-new ... 6/id/58997

Stunning stuff. Will be interesting to see what penalties, if any, come of it.

If true, it's another reason why it's hard to trade against the market. At least when we buy & hold over the long term, these sorts of short term manipulations don't matter as much. The boglehead way wins again.

Only if the market is the right kind of market.
The fact is one cannot willy-nilly pick any market to just try to apply a boglehead philosophy to.
I wouldnt for example, recommend going 100% VGPMX and going full boglehead there, calling dips noise, staying the course.
The endeavor itself may be said to be unsound.

One reason I like VTI is collectively, it's so big, there are very few players in the world with the capability of manipulating it.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:06 pm
by sperry8
That's why I said the market. Not a sector of the market, but the boglehead way of buying the whole market fully diversified. Hard to manipulate that over the long term.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:30 pm
by Jack FFR1846
Interesting article. Unfortunately, I expect that all the defendant banks will pay fines and go their merry way. When executives go to real jail, they'll keep their houses in order. A bunch of perp walks are really needed or they'll just go doing this again.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:47 pm
by boglephreak
no idea whether any of this is true or not, but thats a horribly written article that appears results oriented to decry wall street, and relying upon a civil complaint's allegations to prove a point is like asking the wolf what he is doing in the hen house.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:15 pm
by sperry8
Jack FFR1846 wrote:Interesting article. Unfortunately, I expect that all the defendant banks will pay fines and go their merry way. When executives go to real jail, they'll keep their houses in order. A bunch of perp walks are really needed or they'll just go doing this again.
Agreed.
boglephreak wrote:no idea whether any of this is true or not, but thats a horribly written article that appears results oriented to decry wall street, and relying upon a civil complaint's allegations to prove a point is like asking the wolf what he is doing in the hen house.
I'm no expert in this case... but Bloomberg says they previously settled to a lawsuit for manipulating silver prices and as part of that, they handed over documents showing other banks were in on it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-prices

It appears to me that you are suggesting that we cannot ever trust the one who "cuts the deal". I know many Italian mobsters who agree with that :shock:

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:49 pm
by boglephreak
sperry8 wrote:
Jack FFR1846 wrote:Interesting article. Unfortunately, I expect that all the defendant banks will pay fines and go their merry way. When executives go to real jail, they'll keep their houses in order. A bunch of perp walks are really needed or they'll just go doing this again.
Agreed.
boglephreak wrote:no idea whether any of this is true or not, but thats a horribly written article that appears results oriented to decry wall street, and relying upon a civil complaint's allegations to prove a point is like asking the wolf what he is doing in the hen house.
I'm no expert in this case... but Bloomberg says they previously settled to a lawsuit for manipulating silver prices and as part of that, they handed over documents showing other banks were in on it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-prices

It appears to me that you are suggesting that we cannot ever trust the one who "cuts the deal". I know many Italian mobsters who agree with that :shock:
i have no idea what you are talking about and how the mob is relevant. i am making no judgment based on deutsche bank cutting a deal. i am saying the article is horribly written and makes me seriously doubt its veracity just based on the statements made in it. journalism is supposed to be objective, not results oriented.

some examples (keep in mind that deutsche bank has not admitted to anything, so nothing has been proven; settling and denying liability is the norm, not the exception; also, the regulators have investigated and apparently not found sufficient evidence of wrongdoing despite the allegations of a "smoking gun"):
apparently not among the banking class of criminals
We know banks have been rigging all sorts of markets and sticking it to their own customers for a long, long time with little repercussion.
Regulatory capture - the cozy relationship between Wall Street and the bureaucrats who often want nothing more than to land a high-paying job there - is a real problem.
After spending more than 7,000 enforcement hours, officials there somehow managed to miss what appears to be institutionalized cheating over a period lasting years.
And, because it is a civil matter, the case cannot be derailed by inept or compromised regulators.
The new evidence might even be too compelling for regulators to keep looking the other way.
if this was just an opinion piece, i would give it a little more leniency. but good lord, this is not objective reporting. its results oriented and utter trash. they should be ashamed they published this.

the bloomberg article is much better.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:53 pm
by sperry8
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Not sure what all those quotes are... did they come from an article surrounding this case?

Anyway... I sent the Bloomberg article because I figured there reporting would be better. It'll be interesting to see what comes of all this, but I fear like you say it'll be settlements with fines and no admission of wrong-doing. But hey, we all know what that means anyway.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:26 pm
by boglephreak
sperry8 wrote:Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Not sure what all those quotes are... did they come from an article surrounding this case?

Anyway... I sent the Bloomberg article because I figured there reporting would be better. It'll be interesting to see what comes of all this, but I fear like you say it'll be settlements with fines and no admission of wrong-doing. But hey, we all know what that means anyway.
those quotes came from the article you linked in the original post.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:36 pm
by sandramjet
I didn't read the article, but just the words "silver market" bring to mind (well for some, anyway) the Hunt brothers and their effort to manipulate that market....

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:35 pm
by tacster
sandramjet wrote:I didn't read the article, but just the words "silver market" bring to mind (well for some, anyway) the Hunt brothers and their effort to manipulate that market....
Yep that's what I thought the thread was referring to.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:40 pm
by LadyGeek
This thread has run its course and is locked (not actionable, stupidity of other people). See: Unacceptable Topics
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