What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

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White Coat Investor
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by White Coat Investor »

anoop wrote:I see it as more of a mindset/belief thing. If you believe it's possible, then it is. I grew up with the middle class mentality of hard work and I find it very hard to break away from it. In fact, the only reason I even think of alternatives now is because the way employers treat employees is rapidly changing for the worse--not just in compensation and benefits, but also in the number of hours that they expect one to put in.
Exactly. If you simply will it into existence, it will eventually exist. The harder I work the luckier I get etc.

But the beautiful thing is you don't have to choose one or the other. I've got a nice reliable, stable, high paying job as a doc and I max out my retirement accounts with index funds. But I'm also constantly on the prowl for other businesses to buy or develop. After a while, those opportunities just come to you...you don't even have to go looking for them. I get pitched the opportunity to own/start a legitimate business (not counting real estate- that's dozens of times a week) once a month or so.
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steve roy
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by steve roy »

neomutiny06 wrote:Tonight, I had dinner with an old friend who is a successful entrepreneur. ...

Guys, I left this dinner feeling like I missed out on something. I work 8-6 everyday, long commute, and I don't make 1/4 of what he makes. What am I missing? Did he build the dream life? Or are there cons to the Four Hour Workweek also?
Somebody's always doing better. Somebody's always doing worse. Somebody's hit the mother lode. Somebody else has six months to live.

As Roger Miller taught us:

"I hear tell you're doing well
That could things have come to you
I wish I had your happiness
And you had a doo whacka doo whacka doo whacka doo"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI-Y0CMGwxo

Envy and regret buy you nothing. You are where you are. You could have been born a Rockefeller or Walton or Koch. Then you wouldn't have to work AT ALL. Forget about four hours a week.
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reriodan
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by reriodan »

I've always wondered why people who have supposedly made a lot of money doing X go into business selling books about how to make money doing X.
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White Coat Investor
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by White Coat Investor »

reriodan wrote:I've always wondered why people who have supposedly made a lot of money doing X go into business selling books about how to make money doing X.
For a lot of people, the business is the book. That's a good chunk of my revenue. Everyone ought to write and try to sell a book. It's a very informative experience and sometimes it even makes money.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
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mlebuf
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by mlebuf »

Here's a formula for the Zero Hour Work Week:
1. Get a good education in a marketable skill.
2. Go to work and make money.
3. Save and invest a healthy part of your paycheck, the more the better. You can invest in mutual funds, stocks, bonds, rental real estate or something that you have some knowledge about.
4. Continue to work, save, invest and let your money make money.
5. When your net worth is 20 - 25 times your yearly spending, you can graduate to the Zero Hour Work Week.

How do we know that the guy talking about how easy it is to make money isn't just blowing smoke? I had multiple streams of income as a writer from royalties, etc. where the checks rolled in with no effort on my part. But the money in large quantities didn't start rolling in until about 13 years after I began. During those 13 years I was working my tail off for little pay. I'm a great believer in the old saying that it takes 15 years to become an overnight success.

Jason Zweig said it best: "The problem with getting rich quick is that you have to do it so often." To be sure, there are exceptions to the rule. But betting our future believing that we will be the exception usually doesn't end well.

There are basically 2 ways to make money:
1. Labor - You exchange your time and skills for money.
2. Capital - You let your accumulated savings and investments make money.

Unless we chose rich parents, the way to build wealth almost always requires doing both.
Best wishes, | Michael | | Invest your time actively and your money passively.
TravelGeek
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by TravelGeek »

White Coat Investor wrote: For a lot of people, the business is the book. That's a good chunk of my revenue.
Revenue... But is it profitable? ;)
Everyone ought to write and try to sell a book. It's a very informative experience and sometimes it even makes money.
Yup, been there, done that. I agree.

But wasn't a four hour work week business.
randomguy
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by randomguy »

TravelGeek wrote:
White Coat Investor wrote: For a lot of people, the business is the book. That's a good chunk of my revenue.
Revenue... But is it profitable? ;)
Everyone ought to write and try to sell a book. It's a very informative experience and sometimes it even makes money.
Yup, been there, done that. I agree.

But wasn't a four hour work week business.
It is once you finish the book. Just sit back and watch the royalty checks roll in forever. Of course that only really works if you wrote something like the "Lord of the Rings" or "Catcher in the Rye". I be the beetle royalities are also pretty good.

I think people are confusing running a business (everyone should due it once. It is educational) and the 4 hour workweek type business (The only thing close is when you delegate everything out. At that point you are no longer a businessman. You are an investor).
staythecourse
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by staythecourse »

Didn't read the other posts so apologize if I am repeating, but the ONLY way someone is getting easy money in this world is if they are lying, cheating, stealing, marrying, or inheriting it.

For everyone else and MUCH more so for self owning business folks they work hard to make it. Anyone who is saying anything else is just not being honest.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
TravelGeek
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by TravelGeek »

randomguy wrote:
It is once you finish the book. Just sit back and watch the royalty checks roll in forever. Of course that only really works if you wrote something like the "Lord of the Rings" or "Catcher in the Rye". I be the beetle royalities are also pretty good.
So yes, I really should have written Lord of the Rings. But I didn't, and the vast majority of authors don't.

Sure, there are a few people who put up a web site with minimal effort that somehow becomes a magic money machine. Not really scalable for the masses, though. I have a feeling those those who sell the recipes for this make more money than those who try to follow them.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by White Coat Investor »

TravelGeek wrote:
White Coat Investor wrote: For a lot of people, the business is the book. That's a good chunk of my revenue.
Revenue... But is it profitable? ;)
Everyone ought to write and try to sell a book. It's a very informative experience and sometimes it even makes money.
Yup, been there, done that. I agree.

But wasn't a four hour work week business.
I don't think Ferriss ever claimed that you NEVER had to work mroe than 4 hours. I think the point was to get the business to where it could be run with only four hours a week. I certainly spend less than 4 hours a week selling my book. In fact, it's almost completely passive. Is it profitable? Heck yes. If only I could guarantee it would continue to sell as much in the future as it has in the past I could retire today solely on that revenue. Ask Mike Piper about his book sales. He essentially supports his family on them. The book sales were so profitable he took all the ads off his site and just uses it to sell his books.

Some of the things I do in my side business (writing, speaking) are 100% active. Some are now 100% passive (like the book sales.) And some are in between. But the point is I have a dozen or more streams of revenue, several of which could support my lifestyle on their own.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Meaty »

dharrythomas wrote:My father was a CPA with his own practice in as small town so I knew many businessmen growing up. Some made a great deal of money and some barely survived. Between my father's business and the Army Reserve, he came home to eat and sleep. His successful clients were working more than 60 hours a week and taking risk with leverage. I remember taking my kids to Disney World in the 1990s, I was out of touch with my job, I saw a small business owner on a pay phone and then heard him in a worried discussion with his wife about what an employee was doing back home.

Often, the most successful people don't have a job or own a business, the job or business owns them.
+1
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by White Coat Investor »

Meaty wrote:
dharrythomas wrote:My father was a CPA with his own practice in as small town so I knew many businessmen growing up. Some made a great deal of money and some barely survived. Between my father's business and the Army Reserve, he came home to eat and sleep. His successful clients were working more than 60 hours a week and taking risk with leverage. I remember taking my kids to Disney World in the 1990s, I was out of touch with my job, I saw a small business owner on a pay phone and then heard him in a worried discussion with his wife about what an employee was doing back home.

Often, the most successful people don't have a job or own a business, the job or business owns them.
+1
I kind of understand how Warren Buffett feels when he says he hopes everyone indexes because then he'll have less competition!

Just because lots of people fail at entrepreneurship doesn't mean all do. Plus, for many people it is entirely possible to do both. Then if the new business doesn't work out, you haven't lost anything but your time and effort, and if you enjoyed it, then you haven't lost anything at all.
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Meaty
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Meaty »

White Coat Investor wrote:
Meaty wrote:
dharrythomas wrote:My father was a CPA with his own practice in as small town so I knew many businessmen growing up. Some made a great deal of money and some barely survived. Between my father's business and the Army Reserve, he came home to eat and sleep. His successful clients were working more than 60 hours a week and taking risk with leverage. I remember taking my kids to Disney World in the 1990s, I was out of touch with my job, I saw a small business owner on a pay phone and then heard him in a worried discussion with his wife about what an employee was doing back home.

Often, the most successful people don't have a job or own a business, the job or business owns them.
+1
I kind of understand how Warren Buffett feels when he says he hopes everyone indexes because then he'll have less competition!

Just because lots of people fail at entrepreneurship doesn't mean all do. Plus, for many people it is entirely possible to do both. Then if the new business doesn't work out, you haven't lost anything but your time and effort, and if you enjoyed it, then you haven't lost anything at all.
Agreed. I just think it's a valid point that successful owners are often working 24/7.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Barefootgirl »

Although I have to continue to remind myself that I'm human too, I try to remember that the outside view is often different from reality on side of the wall - the one we don't see. It's also human nature to be competitive. My stepfather always remembers to tell me about his casino winnings, but somehow forgets to mention the losses.

I try to focus instead on myself, what is within my control and the personal hand I'm playing - different than the one my neighbor was dealt.

At the same time, this line of discussion is very American. Whenever I travel abroad I'm struck by how I see more people relaxing, laughing, smiling and dancing (even outside of tourist areas)...could be a matter of perspective, but I think not.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but I figure relaxing, laughing, smiling and dancing to be markers of success.

BFG
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by stoptothink »

I know nothing about the book and considering I am only marginally financially successful, I'm not sure my opinion would matter even if I did. What I do know about is exercise and nutrition, and in that respect, Ferriss' other work (4-Hour Body) is kind of a joke. It does provide the basics of exercise and nutrition, but the other stuff is kind of "interesting". The more "interesting" parts of the plan are based not on science, but primarily on his own anecdotal experience. FWIW, Ferriss has no formal background in the topics of exercise and nutrition, has admitted to a lot of previous anabolic use, and he's hardly a world-class athlete or in (what I would consider) phenomenal shape; so, I'm not sure why anybody would be viewing him as an expert in the subject.

Makes me hesitant to take anything else he has written too seriously. He is a heck of a lot more financially successful than I am though, so...
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by bradshaw1965 »

stoptothink wrote:I know nothing about the book and considering I am only marginally financially successful, I'm not sure my opinion would matter even if I did. What I do know about is exercise and nutrition, and in that respect, Ferriss' other work (4-Hour Body) is kind of a joke. It does provide the basics of exercise and nutrition, but the other stuff is kind of "interesting". The more "interesting" parts of the plan are based not on science, but primarily on his own anecdotal experience. FWIW, Ferriss has no formal background in the topics of exercise and nutrition, has admitted to a lot of previous anabolic use, and he's hardly a world-class athlete or in (what I would consider) phenomenal shape; so, I'm not sure why anybody would be viewing him as an expert in the subject.

Makes me hesitant to take anything else he has written too seriously. He is a heck of a lot more financially successful than I am though, so...
The 4 hour brand is not about giving best practices for any subject, it's about hacking and experimentation. Maybe it's not the best way to go deep on a subject but it's an interesting platform. I've listened to him speak, he's a pretty genuine guy and he's probably outgrown the 4 hour brand at this point.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by anil686 »

Meaty wrote:
dharrythomas wrote:My father was a CPA with his own practice in as small town so I knew many businessmen growing up. Some made a great deal of money and some barely survived. Between my father's business and the Army Reserve, he came home to eat and sleep. His successful clients were working more than 60 hours a week and taking risk with leverage. I remember taking my kids to Disney World in the 1990s, I was out of touch with my job, I saw a small business owner on a pay phone and then heard him in a worried discussion with his wife about what an employee was doing back home.

Often, the most successful people don't have a job or own a business, the job or business owns them.
+1
I own a few businesses and this has happened to me at Disneyworld on my cell frequently answering emails and phone calls on "vacation". My spouse and I both understand I get zero vacation until I retire - it is not possible and I accept that. We just try to make the best of it and call it what it is - an attempt to spend time with family...
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by bertie wooster »

staythecourse wrote:Didn't read the other posts so apologize if I am repeating, but the ONLY way someone is getting easy money in this world is if they are lying, cheating, stealing, marrying, or inheriting it.

For everyone else and MUCH more so for self owning business folks they work hard to make it. Anyone who is saying anything else is just not being honest.
Agree
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Dutch »

If you can successfully build "multiple streams of residual income", then I don't see any cons to that.

Don't give up the day-job just yet, while you're trying.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by bnes »

nisiprius wrote:To be specific, how on earth can a business of selling yoga mats on Amazon "run itself?" Somebody's got to write up the product descriptions, take the pictures of the mats and put them in the descriptions, take the orders, pack the mats, ship them, handle the returns and the complaints and the chargebacks, deal with people who post negative feedback, and so forth. That's beginning to sound like work.
In the case of Amazon in particular, all the above is a service that Amazon charges for. Amazon will hold your inventory, take the orders, pack the mats, etc, etc. But margins are thin, and some other seller could undercut you at any time.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by expat »

cherijoh wrote:Most entrepreneurs work a heck of a lot more than 4 hours per week launching their business(es). And the failure rate is extraordinarily high.
That's the point of the book. If you are working non-stop in your business, you will eventually fail.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by 691175002 »

Every retiree is technically working zero hours and still getting paid. The equation needs to consider time spent reaching the current situation and capital invested. Anyone can get paid $500,000/yr doing nothing if they start with enough $.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by WestTechsan »

susze wrote:You are sure this guy is not into MLM right? Usually people do many of those 20+ and in the end its a scam for everyone except for the one person who started the MLM
Not always the case. My stay at home wife did a couple of MLMs and never made any money. She then started a third three years ago and has done very well, last year earning more than a lot of distributors who have been with the company longer than her. We fully expect others who joined the company after her to pass her in annual income in the future, this particular company's comp plan really allows hard chargers to earn great income. The key phrase being "hard chargers", those who work their butts off. She works very long hours but gets to choose when she works. As far as building a business with residual income, our limited experience is finding the right MLM is one of the best routes.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by alfaspider »

WestTechsan wrote:
susze wrote:You are sure this guy is not into MLM right? Usually people do many of those 20+ and in the end its a scam for everyone except for the one person who started the MLM
Not always the case. My stay at home wife did a couple of MLMs and never made any money. She then started a third three years ago and has done very well, last year earning more than a lot of distributors who have been with the company longer than her. We fully expect others who joined the company after her to pass her in annual income in the future, this particular company's comp plan really allows hard chargers to earn great income. The key phrase being "hard chargers", those who work their butts off. She works very long hours but gets to choose when she works. As far as building a business with residual income, our limited experience is finding the right MLM is one of the best routes.
Just like casinos, the only ones who win consistently at the MLM game are those who run them.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Vilgan »

White Coat Investor wrote:Thank you to the mods for unlocking the thread. I think this is super interesting and very relevant.

Many Bogleheads tend to be Debbie Downers with regard to entrepreneurship. For that portion of the participants here, the secret to success is putting your nose to the grindstone in your cubicle, living frugally, saving 30% of your income, investing in as low a cost portfolio as they can build, and retiring to a frugal retirement at 50-55.

While there is no doubt that that is a completely viable path to financial independence, it is not the only path.
I agree with this completely. People constantly find reasons to doubt others success or come up with excuses about why it can't be done. The main thing about entrepreneurship is it frees you from the restrictions of a "market rate hourly wage". Sometimes that means you make less. But it also means you can make more and potentially a LOT more. The main thing is that your earnings are more correlated to the value that you create rather than the hours that you worked. If you have a valuable skill, you can bill yourself as a consultant and make 2-4x what salaried people make with that skill. If you create something with recurring value you can make a recurring profit with minimal additional effort. I have a friend who created course materials several years ago and makes 200-300k per year off the royalties w/o additional work. Others went from a salaried tech position to freelance and bumped their income from 150k/year to multiples of that.

I do think personality comes into play a lot though. Many people do not have the right personality for it. You need to be comfortable with risk, failure, and the ups and downs that come with owning your own business.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

White Coat Investor wrote:
Meaty wrote:
dharrythomas wrote:My father was a CPA with his own practice in as small town so I knew many businessmen growing up. Some made a great deal of money and some barely survived. Between my father's business and the Army Reserve, he came home to eat and sleep. His successful clients were working more than 60 hours a week and taking risk with leverage. I remember taking my kids to Disney World in the 1990s, I was out of touch with my job, I saw a small business owner on a pay phone and then heard him in a worried discussion with his wife about what an employee was doing back home.

Often, the most successful people don't have a job or own a business, the job or business owns them.
+1
I kind of understand how Warren Buffett feels when he says he hopes everyone indexes because then he'll have less competition!
Novice here so this may be a dumb question....If I have a portfolio (lets say the 3 fund portfolio), will it help, hurt, or do nothing to my funds?
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

Vilgan wrote:People constantly find reasons to doubt others success or come up with excuses about why it can't be done.
I think that's a total strawman. Very few doubt that entrepreneurs can be successful, or that some do so with a small amount of on-going effort. However, that doesn't mean that these opportunities are easily available. If it's simple to make good money with no work, why would there be any room for new people to join? It's not like it's some kind of secret, not if books are being published. The slots should be pretty full.

So the answer more likely lies in that it's not that easy, at least to get started, or that it's not nearly certain that it will be profitable. Especially as an area of business becomes more visible, and larger companies with economy of scale start to compete.

Earl
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Vilgan »

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Vilgan wrote:People constantly find reasons to doubt others success or come up with excuses about why it can't be done.
I think that's a total strawman. Very few doubt that entrepreneurs can be successful, or that some do so with a small amount of on-going effort. However, that doesn't mean that these opportunities are easily available. If it's simple to make good money with no work, why would there be any room for new people to join? It's not like it's some kind of secret, not if books are being published. The slots should be pretty full.

So the answer more likely lies in that it's not that easy, at least to get started, or that it's not nearly certain that it will be profitable. Especially as an area of business becomes more visible, and larger companies with economy of scale start to compete.

Earl
Not sure its a strawman when there examples of doubt/excuses right here in this thread. Some examples:
susze wrote:You are sure this guy is not into MLM right? Usually people do many of those 20+ and in the end its a scam for everyone except for the one person who started the MLM
randomguy wrote: Your missing the guys that spend 100k's to build apps and mad 4 dollars/month. The ones that buy warehouse that sit empty, and so on. You don't have any idea of about how much time and money your friend is risking. I am sure for 1 million bucks, I can work 4 hours/week and have someone else do the work. The questions is will that income stream be higher/more stable than passive investing? If you have good partners with lack of cash, the answer might be yes.
cherijoh wrote:Most entrepreneurs work a heck of a lot more than 4 hours per week launching their business(es). And the failure rate is extraordinarily high. So while there are some wildly successful entrepreneurs - especially in the tech world - these are the statistical outliers IMO. Either your friend was incredibly lucky or he's leaving out some of the details to make a better story. Does he claim that he's always had a 4 hour workweek or that that is what he has now that the businesses are cruising?
I've also seen the exact same thing in person. I left my W2 job to start a company and there were dozens of other people there who should be consulting or otherwise working for themselves instead of giving away 80% of their value to the company and only keeping 20% in the form of a salary. When I left everyone assumed it was for Facebook, Google, or to lead development at some startup. Going out on your own was an alien thought that many had trouble comprehending.

I talked to my old boss a few weeks ago and one of the their main concerns is how to get people to stay when they could make a lot more money on their own. They spend a LOT of focus on making it a "great place to work" in order to keep people from thinking about their other options. However, despite the fact it would make financial sense for more to follow in my path: not one other person has done it.

The W2 route is easy: you go to college like everyone else, you talk to some recruiters, you get a job, then maybe you talk to a few other recruiters every few years and change jobs. You never have to learn about business, think about the profit potential, worry about sales (unless you are in sales), worry about talent acquisition/retention (unless you are in recruitment/management), think about legal stuff, etc. You can build one marketable skill and frequently ride that to retirement. When most society is structured around this path: being willing to break out and find other revenue streams is unusual and a step that many won't consider. Many people seem to assume entrepreneurship is a pipe dream that only happens on TV or to specific "special" people without being willing to assume that they too can be successful at it.

The issue isn't that "all the slots are full" its that most people assume they are or assume they couldn't fill one of those slots.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

I don't those show what you think. The fact that some people are dubious about a particular case or (rightfully) indicate that this case might not by typical doesn't mean that they think that no entrepreneurs ever succeed. Which would be silly, as there are bona fide examples.

There are millions of adults in the USA. It's hard to believe that there are very many "slots" going wanting, especially with a large number of people who do attempt to go that route and fail.

Even if we accept the accuracy of the original anecdote, that doesn't mean that it is common, or even likely. There is the counter-attitude here you've expressed that most people are pretty dumb for working a full day for modest pay when they could be doing this instead. There is little evidence that this is a viable path to income for most people.

Earl
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Will do good »

anil686 wrote:
Meaty wrote:
dharrythomas wrote:My father was a CPA with his own practice in as small town so I knew many businessmen growing up. Some made a great deal of money and some barely survived. Between my father's business and the Army Reserve, he came home to eat and sleep. His successful clients were working more than 60 hours a week and taking risk with leverage. I remember taking my kids to Disney World in the 1990s, I was out of touch with my job, I saw a small business owner on a pay phone and then heard him in a worried discussion with his wife about what an employee was doing back home.

Often, the most successful people don't have a job or own a business, the job or business owns them.
+1
I own a few businesses and this has happened to me at Disneyworld on my cell frequently answering emails and phone calls on "vacation". My spouse and I both understand I get zero vacation until I retire - it is not possible and I accept that. We just try to make the best of it and call it what it is - an attempt to spend time with family...
As a business owner, I have to check in all the time while on vacation, unlike when I worked at megacorp. But I'm also making a lot more and the business I grow benefits my family. At this point I'm much happier owning my business than when I worked for someone else. YMMV
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Mingus »

reriodan wrote:I've always wondered why people who have supposedly made a lot of money doing X go into business selling books about how to make money doing X.
I can think of a few reasons

1) They have been very successful, have made theirs, so why not share with the world how they did it. The counter argument to this would be why give up their secret? The counter to the counter is most people don't have what it takes to be a threat.

2) They are so passionate and excited about what they do, writing a book about it is the next logical step.

3) Make it look like they have been successful. Make money off of books, which might lead into giving seminars and selling more books, or training courses.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by sk.dolcevita »

White Coat Investor wrote:... I get pitched the opportunity to own/start a legitimate business (not counting real estate- that's dozens of times a week) once a month or so.
It is my understanding that doctors (at least the ones I know) get such pitches frequently - there are people whose job is to pitch "special" investment ideas to doctors. For example, a cardiologist I know teamed up with four other doctors to buy an oil storage container few months ago and fill it up with oil. As per the unconfirmed gossip they are just above their breakeven point and will do very well if oil goes to $60.

The same group of doctors flew around the country and brought two foreclosed developments directly from banks - one in San Diego and another in Miami in 2008. They sold those recently and have made a pretty penny.

Then few weeks ago they bought puts on LinkedIn two days before the shares tanked 50%.

All this happened because they were pitched these ideas that ordinary mortals don't have access to. Of course, money attracts money.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by randomguy »

Mingus wrote:
reriodan wrote:I've always wondered why people who have supposedly made a lot of money doing X go into business selling books about how to make money doing X.
I can think of a few reasons

1) They have been very successful, have made theirs, so why not share with the world how they did it. The counter argument to this would be why give up their secret? The counter to the counter is most people don't have what it takes to be a threat.

2) They are so passionate and excited about what they do, writing a book about it is the next logical step.

3) Make it look like they have been successful. Make money off of books, which might lead into giving seminars and selling more books, or training courses.
4) it is more scalable. You might be able to run say 10 rental properties on your own. But doing 200 would require building a company. Do you build that company or do you find 1k people who are willing to give you 5k each for you to tell them the secrets to getting into real estate? What will require more work over the long run.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by randomguy »

sk.dolcevita wrote:
White Coat Investor wrote:... I get pitched the opportunity to own/start a legitimate business (not counting real estate- that's dozens of times a week) once a month or so.
It is my understanding that doctors (at least the ones I know) get such pitches frequently - there are people whose job is to pitch "special" investment ideas to doctors. For example, a cardiologist I know teamed up with four other doctors to buy an oil storage container few months ago and fill it up with oil. As per the unconfirmed gossip they are just above their breakeven point and will do very well if oil goes to $60.

The same group of doctors flew around the country and brought two foreclosed developments directly from banks - one in San Diego and another in Miami in 2008. They sold those recently and have made a pretty penny.

Then few weeks ago they bought puts on LinkedIn two days before the shares tanked 50%.

All this happened because they were pitched these ideas that ordinary mortals don't have access to. Of course, money attracts money.
I don't know about money attracting money. But if you want to make money, going where the money is a good approach. Doctors have a reputation for being dumb money (i.e. they will invest in any hare brained scheme if you market as something exclusive) so there are people out there that will try and get them to invest in their scheme. If it works out, great. You split the money and everyone is happy. If it is a loser, you walk away and find another set of doctors to try a different scheme with. Eventually you will hit a winner and make your fortune.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by randomguy »

Vilgan wrote:
I've also seen the exact same thing in person. I left my W2 job to start a company and there were dozens of other people there who should be consulting or otherwise working for themselves instead of giving away 80% of their value to the company and only keeping 20% in the form of a salary. When I left everyone assumed it was for Facebook, Google, or to lead development at some startup. Going out on your own was an alien thought that many had trouble comprehending.

The issue isn't that "all the slots are full" its that most people assume they are or assume they couldn't fill one of those slots.
I know a couple dozen of people that left to start a new company (combo of startups and consulting). Some make it. Most don't. After a couple of years they go back to working for someone else. Only one is working less than a 4 hour week (last I heard he is still retired from selling the company 2 years ago. I figure he will get the itch to try it again in another year or two) that I know of. Most are working 50+ weeks. I think everyone should go out on their own at some point if they have any desire. But I think the odds of making a lot more money are better than cutting the work week down.

I would really try not to mix up going out on your own and the idea of passive income. They are only very,very loosely related.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by White Coat Investor »

Earl Lemongrab wrote:I don't those show what you think. The fact that some people are dubious about a particular case or (rightfully) indicate that this case might not by typical doesn't mean that they think that no entrepreneurs ever succeed. Which would be silly, as there are bona fide examples.

There are millions of adults in the USA. It's hard to believe that there are very many "slots" going wanting, especially with a large number of people who do attempt to go that route and fail.

Even if we accept the accuracy of the original anecdote, that doesn't mean that it is common, or even likely. There is the counter-attitude here you've expressed that most people are pretty dumb for working a full day for modest pay when they could be doing this instead. There is little evidence that this is a viable path to income for most people.

Earl
The idea that there are "slots" isn't very entrepreneurial. The whole idea is to create your own slot. Before I started WCI, how many slots for websites about physician personal finance and investing were there? I don't know, but none were full. Now there are a half dozen or more sites, but I'm still not sure how many slots there are. Maybe there is one. Maybe there is a dozen. Maybe there are hundreds.

Entrepreneurship is about seeing a need and filling that need. Once you start looking around, you realize there are needs everywhere. As you solve peoples' problems, they will throw money at you. For example, before I started my site, my readers had nowhere good to go to get physician-specific financial information and my advertisers had nowhere good to go where for a reasonable price, they could advertise directly to high income professionals interested in their services. I put the two of them together and solved problems for dozens of businesses and tens of thousands of docs. Win-win-win.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Beliavsky »

neomutiny06 wrote:Tonight, I had dinner with an old friend who is a successful entrepreneur.

He reminds me of the book "Four Hour Workweek" which basically promotes "residual income" from multiple streams. You build out many income sources (selling yoga mats on Amazon, launching apps, launching a clothing line, etc.) All of these businesses are built to run themselves and you make money for life without working, while traveling and doing what you want. That's the idea.

Well tonight, I spoke with an old friend who is doing just that. My friend is a part of over 20 businesses. He got started by coming up with an idea for a new app, he had somebody build the idea out, he got massive funding, and launched it. It makes him $6k per month.
If you can up with good business ideas, you can earn much more per hour than the average wage. Otherwise they would not be good business ideas. The question is how to become a person that comes up with and implements them.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Vilgan »

White Coat Investor wrote: Entrepreneurship is about seeing a need and filling that need. Once you start looking around, you realize there are needs everywhere.
This! Look for pain points, solve them, collect $$. You don't need the "perfect" idea, you just need to remember that there needs to be a group that is willing to pay money to solve the pain that you are alleviating. WCI solves pain for doctors and for advertisers and thus cash pours in. Watch Shark Tank, see how all kinds of normal people experience a pain, figure out how to solve the pain, start a viable business. I did the consulting route because its the easiest and most guaranteed money I've come across as I'm solving a common pain, but I see other business opportunities I could make a good living at on a monthly basis.

This is away from the "four hour workweek" bit though. Businesses can turn into 4 hour workweeks someday, but worry about that down the road. Build the business, then later hire people to operate it and step away. I've personally been slow about this because hiring people has its own risks, but I would be a lot more aggressive about hiring if the four hour workweek was my #1 goal.

Other note: it isn't always more stressful to be a business owner as you usually have more control which can result in higher happiness. Despite being in situations that are theoretically WAY more stressful, my blood pressure has gone down significantly since I became my own boss. Anecdotal I know, but I was shocked at how low it registered earlier this week - I've never been that low and there haven't been any significant improvements in fitness or lifestyle.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

Sure. I can lay out the perfect plan:

1. Come up with innovative concept.
2. Implement that concept.
3. Profit.

Simple! Only not so easy. People try and try. Most fail. To promote this as something that is a readily available alternative to a regular job is to discount the extremely high failure rate.

EmergDoc's point about his website is an interesting one. I would be very impressed if he said that there was a plan from the beginning to develop a following on BogleHeads by dispensing great advice, create a website for medical professionals from that reputation, then monetize it. I suspect that things sort of happened more gradually.

There was a niche, and "slot" as it were, that he uncovered. So does that mean we can all go out and start our own version of the WCI? Probably not. Just as I can't just decide to have the new hot Zhu Zhu Pets toy. Lightning strikes on occasion, and often because a good lightning rod was constructed. That still doesn't make it common. Or easy.

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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by White Coat Investor »

Vilgan wrote: Despite being in situations that are theoretically WAY more stressful, my blood pressure has gone down significantly since I became my own boss. Anecdotal I know, but I was shocked at how low it registered earlier this week - I've never been that low and there haven't been any significant improvements in fitness or lifestyle.
Maybe you're septic? :)
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by White Coat Investor »

Earl Lemongrab wrote:EmergDoc's point about his website is an interesting one. I would be very impressed if he said that there was a plan from the beginning to develop a following on BogleHeads by dispensing great advice, create a website for medical professionals from that reputation, then monetize it. I suspect that things sort of happened more gradually.
Of course. It's easy to see going back through my BH posts that I started with GETTING advice, then moved into just having fun and helping other people. Then I was asked to work on the wiki and I said to myself, "If I'm going to do all that work, I might as well get paid for it." So I talked to a few bloggers, made a commitment to stick with it for two years to see if I was making $1K a month by then, and went for it. I barely made that goal, by the way and the hourly rate of return on my first couple of years was pathetically low. But it was fun. It's less fun (except interacting with docs) and more work now but it sure pays a lot better!

But at this point, I could have four hour work week and have a six figure income. Additional work at this point is about increasing income and making the business more valuable. Well, that's only partially true. I still feel pretty passionately about the primary mission (helping docs get a fair shake on wall street) to be honest and still do lots of stuff for free or close to it in that regard.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

Jim, it's great that you were able to take what you learned and pass it on. These responses certainly aren't any attempt to dissuade those who have a passion or an idea and want to see where it goes. But some of the messages have been with a tone that people who don't are passing up the easy life in exchange for drudgery.

Mention was made of people quitting their regular jobs to go into the lucrative consulting area. That's something I have a bit of experience with. I work as a software engineer at a Megacorp. We use contractors there a fair amount. And they do make good money. But in exchange they live a life of uncertainty. One of the guys in my group is a former contractor who made the other change and became a regular hire. Why? Because a hitch in funding can send you packing. At one point he had to leave his family and take an assignment in another city.

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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by White Coat Investor »

Earl Lemongrab wrote:Jim, it's great that you were able to take what you learned and pass it on. These responses certainly aren't any attempt to dissuade those who have a passion or an idea and want to see where it goes. But some of the messages have been with a tone that people who don't are passing up the easy life in exchange for drudgery.

Mention was made of people quitting their regular jobs to go into the lucrative consulting area. That's something I have a bit of experience with. I work as a software engineer at a Megacorp. We use contractors there a fair amount. And they do make good money. But in exchange they live a life of uncertainty. One of the guys in my group is a former contractor who made the other change and became a regular hire. Why? Because a hitch in funding can send you packing. At one point he had to leave his family and take an assignment in another city.

Earl
Yup, life is risky. On the other hand....it's harder to get fired by all your clients than it is to be fired by your boss.

I'm certainly not saying what I have done is easy or risk less. But I think there are a lot of people out there who are scared to own their job and especially insomuch as you can move into it gradually (evenings, weekends etc) it isn't nearly as risky as you might think, especially if start up costs are low.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by knpstr »

Pros: It is a dream life
Cons: It is very difficult to fully achieve
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by renue74 »

White Coat Investor wrote:Yup, life is risky. On the other hand....it's harder to get fired by all your clients than it is to be fired by your boss.

I'm certainly not saying what I have done is easy or risk less. But I think there are a lot of people out there who are scared to own their job and especially insomuch as you can move into it gradually (evenings, weekends etc) it isn't nearly as risky as you might think, especially if start up costs are low.
I think this is a good way of putting it. I own a small business and have four other income streams. My W2 income may vary wildly from year to year and that's when I can rely on the other streams. If all five do well, then I save more that year. If I lose a ton of clients at work, I have a fallback.

For many entrepreneur's, I think working angles is a built-in trait....the enjoyment of the process, trying new things. If you can try new things and they don't work, there is a fallback of other income streams.

Home runs are great, but it's the singles and doubles that win the game.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Mingus »

randomguy wrote:
Mingus wrote:
reriodan wrote:I've always wondered why people who have supposedly made a lot of money doing X go into business selling books about how to make money doing X.
I can think of a few reasons

1) They have been very successful, have made theirs, so why not share with the world how they did it. The counter argument to this would be why give up their secret? The counter to the counter is most people don't have what it takes to be a threat.

2) They are so passionate and excited about what they do, writing a book about it is the next logical step.

3) Make it look like they have been successful. Make money off of books, which might lead into giving seminars and selling more books, or training courses.
4) it is more scalable. You might be able to run say 10 rental properties on your own. But doing 200 would require building a company. Do you build that company or do you find 1k people who are willing to give you 5k each for you to tell them the secrets to getting into real estate? What will require more work over the long run.
That's the intent of the "Learn to make millions" real estate seminars we hear about advertised on the radio? "Call this # for a free DVD of my method and tickets to my presentation!"
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by Vilgan »

Earl Lemongrab wrote:Jim, it's great that you were able to take what you learned and pass it on. These responses certainly aren't any attempt to dissuade those who have a passion or an idea and want to see where it goes. But some of the messages have been with a tone that people who don't are passing up the easy life in exchange for drudgery.

Mention was made of people quitting their regular jobs to go into the lucrative consulting area. That's something I have a bit of experience with. I work as a software engineer at a Megacorp. We use contractors there a fair amount. And they do make good money. But in exchange they live a life of uncertainty. One of the guys in my group is a former contractor who made the other change and became a regular hire. Why? Because a hitch in funding can send you packing. At one point he had to leave his family and take an assignment in another city.

Earl
Do you have experience with it? Or just knowledge of the people your megacorp hires as staff aug? Staff aug generally sucks whether you are a contractor, a W2 for a consulting company, or an FTE that's just getting added to push things forward faster. Nobody I've known who switched to freelancing and/or started a consulting company did staff aug for a megacorp because that isn't the fun stuff. Its generally lower paying and the least interesting work that can be done. The more interesting work, in my experience, has been owning projects for small and medium size companies. You bring in specialized knowledge to knock out things they don't know how to do, create critical value for their company, make great money doing so. Are there periods of downtime? Sure. Heck, I recently went through one myself where several projects ended simultaneously and we needed to negotiate contracts and wait for signatures. That's awesome, extra time off! Unexpected time off to go hiking, read books, etc is hardly a huge downside when you can still make a year's salary in 3-6 months.

As WCI mentioned, startup costs are also very low and something that you can ease into working nights/weekends to see if it is for you. That's how I got started: moonlighting at night until I realized I far preferred it over standard W2. Startup costs for tech consulting are like 300 bucks if you have a laptop, 1200-1800 if not. Have 6 months expenses in the bank in case stuff goes sour. This whole "move to another city for work" sounds insane to me, shouldn't the work be done remotely anyway? If its a "we want you to come sit at a desk and be seen working" job, that's generally staff aug and to be avoided. In person stuff definitely happens but that usually seems to boil down to a 1 week business trip 1-3 times per project, after that slack/hangouts/etc can handle most followup interaction.
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by abuss368 »

Bogleheads,

Most small business owners that I know have worked many more hours than four each and every week. There efforts have built and developed very good business and they have prospered.

Best.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by snowblinded »

I met a guy like that once. I was at my kid's school, and wondered why this one dad always seemed to have free time during the day to be at every school event. He told me: he was managing a lending company and had 8 or 9 people out there each managing a relatively small amount of money doing loans. It was 2006. He was a bottom-feeding subprime guy, at the middle level of some pyramid. And I later came to learn that he was a convicted felon to boot, with a string of creditors seeking judgments against him!

One lesson: don't take everything at face value, particularly from people quick to brag about it.

On the multiple revenue streams: from what I've seen and tried, there are plenty of little arbitrage opportunities in the online space. I once spent a few hours setting up a review page with Amazon affiliate links that over the course of a year or two, started pulling in some decent referral money (enough to make the time I spent worth about $100/hour in profit for the initial time spent.) Guess what? My state decided that Amazon was leaching tax dollars, so proposed taxing Amazon because of their affiliate program, and Amazon cancelled the affiliate program in my state to avoid having to charge sales tax. No more revenue from referral links.

The point is that these 4-hour work week opportunities exist, but they're often time-limited arbitrage opportunities that disappear after a period of time. Rarely are they sustainable. If you want to make them sustainable, you have to keep finding new ones. Consequently, it becomes a full time job thinking of new schemes to replace the old ones. Some people love that hunt...especially if it gives them the chance to gloat over lunch!
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Re: What are Pros and Cons to the "Four Hour Workweek?"

Post by KyleAAA »

snowblinded wrote: Guess what? My state decided that Amazon was leaching tax dollars, so proposed taxing Amazon because of their affiliate program, and Amazon cancelled the affiliate program in my state to avoid having to charge sales tax. No more revenue from referral links.
FYI there are super easy ways around this using services like Viglink. You have to give them a small slice of the revenue, but it's very little effort on your part and so still probably worth it.
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