Why Bogle?

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Confuscious
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Why Bogle?

Post by Confuscious »

Im curious why we choose to follow the Bogle ideals and to what extent we follow those ideals. is the Bogle ideology ever expanding and changing? Do we follow because we feel that is the best way to make money? How long have we been following? Is it just a fad that we will look back on in x years and question?
Day9
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Day9 »

I'm just a fan of the person I got my user name from
snarlyjack
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by snarlyjack »

Confuscious,

I'm sure you will get a lot of replies to your question.

Guess what...study after study after study...Jack Bogle's way works!
Jack Bogle's way makes money. Very few strategies in the stock market
make money long term. Thank God for Jack Bogle & his way's!!!
Were all richer because of him...
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stemikger
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by stemikger »

Confuscious wrote:Im curious why we choose to follow the Bogle ideals and to what extent we follow those ideals. is the Bogle ideology ever expanding and changing? Do we follow because we feel that is the best way to make money? How long have we been following? Is it just a fad that we will look back on in x years and question?
Because he's the smartest guy in the room! :beer
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in_reality
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by in_reality »

Because we are geeks who think Boglehead bobble-head dolls are cool and as hard as we try can't find anything that reliably works better. Mostly it's the idea of cheesy Boglehead bobble-head dolls though. Don't even know if they exist but wow what a cool factor! Factor investing after all you know!
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David Jay
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by David Jay »

I made my first contribution to a 401K in 1986 so I am not new to investing. I am new to BH and what I like best is the teachability of the BH philosophy. It works. Anyone can do it.

Finally, it is extensible. You can use it as your core and then layer on your personal interests (real estate, individual equities, crowd-funding...).

[edit] We need to find a better name than "fun money" for our personal extensions that we take seriously. I take my 10% special funds very seriously.
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

Many of us stumbled upon John Bogle as we were in search of the truth. We found that he is knowledgeable, honest, and his ideas are based upon common sense and "the relentless rules of humble arithmetic." In other words, it is hard to argue with the basic tenets of Bogle's philosophy because they are true and easily understood. While we can quibble around the edges, it is hard to argue that active management in aggregate must under-perform by the amount of the costs and so therefore, for whatever asset classes you choose to own, indexing is a winning strategy.
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stemikger
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by stemikger »

Call_Me_Op wrote:Many of us stumbled upon John Bogle as we were in search of the truth. We found that he is knowledgeable, honest, and his ideas are based upon common sense and "the relentless rules of humble arithmetic." In other words, it is hard to argue with the basic tenets of Bogle's philosophy because they are true and easily understood. While we can quibble around the edges, it is hard to argue that active management in aggregate must under-perform by the amount of the costs and so therefore, for whatever asset classes you choose to own, indexing is a winning strategy.
+1

Well said!! :beer
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Twins Fan
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Twins Fan »

Simple, easy to put into action, and you don't have to study businesses and managers and all.

"The best"... I don't know about that. There might be better ways to make money, but knowing how ahead of time is difficult. You can certainly do much worse trying other ways.

"A fad".... as long as there's a market to be followed and those willing to take what the market gives them,... I think it will be around for a while. :happy
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by woof755 »

It's important to be clear that Bogleheads don't follow his advice like he is our leader. Bogle has made his case against investing in international funds, yet the majority of us do.

It's the other stuff--buy and hold, keep costs low, tune out the noise, know the value of Enough. That's the good stuff that keeps us coming back.
"By singing in harmony from the same page of the same investing hymnal, the Diehards drown out market noise." | | --Jason Zweig, quoted in The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing
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meowcat
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by meowcat »

Even the best investment strategies don't offer guarantees, not even Bogles'. What the Bogle strategy *does* do is offer it's investors the greatest odds of reaching your retirement/investment goals.
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Hindsight
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Hindsight »

Call_Me_Op wrote:
Many of us stumbled upon John Bogle as we were in search of the truth. We found that he is knowledgeable, honest, and his ideas are based upon common sense and "the relentless rules of humble arithmetic." In other words, it is hard to argue with the basic tenets of Bogle's philosophy because they are true and easily understood. While we can quibble around the edges, it is hard to argue that active management in aggregate must under-perform by the amount of the costs and so therefore, for whatever asset classes you choose to own, indexing is a winning strategy. :happy

I have been lurking for sometime. This sums up my journey so far! :happy +2
dbr
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by dbr »

I don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here do look at investing and what Jack Bogle says about it and figure out what makes sense. It does turn out for those people that the result is generally similar to but not always the same as what Mr. Bogle has said on the whole over the years. A person who invests by "following" anyone is a fool.

Oh, and a lot of what makes sense can actually be implemented because Mr. Bogle made it possible in Vanguard funds. That does not mean there aren't ways to do the same thing using investments elsewhere, and it certainly does not mean one has to place one's money "at" Vanguard.
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by nisiprius »

dbr wrote:I don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here do look at investing and what Jack Bogle says about it and figure out what makes sense. It does turn out for those people that the result is generally similar to but not always the same as what Mr. Bogle has said on the whole over the years. A person who invests by "following" anyone is a fool.

Oh, and a lot of what makes sense can actually be implemented because Mr. Bogle made it possible in Vanguard funds. That does not mean there aren't ways to do the same thing using investments elsewhere, and it certainly does not mean one has to place one's money "at" Vanguard.
+1, +1, +1. What he said.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by VictoriaF »

Jack Bogle has created index funds, an act of courage against the enormous pressure from the financial industry, first, in disbelief that it would work, and then in hostility against a superior product. The American investors should be eternally grateful to Jack for enabling us to invest in index funds; and we should guard against overt and covert attacks on broad-based low-cost indexing by those who are threatened by it.

Indexing is not an ideology; it's common sense for the mathematically literate.

The composition of investments is personal. Jack shares his investment approach, and others are welcome to follow it to the extent they wish. Taylor shares his approach, and others may find a 3-fund portfolio suitable for them. Vanguard advocates all-in-one Target Retirement and Lifecycle funds, which are an excellent option for some. All of these options are good. There is no need to pursue "excellence" not merely because "excellent is an enemy of good enough," but mostly because fine-tuning and tweaking of one's portfolio opens gaping holes for behavioral mistakes and has little predicting power in an uncertain financial environment.

Victoria
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dkturner
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by dkturner »

dbr wrote:
Oh, and a lot of what makes sense can actually be implemented because Mr. Bogle made it possible in Vanguard funds.
Boy, you hit the nail on the head with that compliment. In my book Mr. Bogle is going to be remembered primarily for his extraordinary contributions to low cost investing in an enviornment where investing had been egregiously overpriced.
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woof755
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by woof755 »

dkturner wrote:
dbr wrote:
Oh, and a lot of what makes sense can actually be implemented because Mr. Bogle made it possible in Vanguard funds.
Boy, you hit the nail on the head with that compliment. In my book Mr. Bogle is going to be remembered primarily for his extraordinary contributions to low cost investing in an enviornment where investing had been egregiously overpriced.

It really seems borderline Nobel-worthy.
"By singing in harmony from the same page of the same investing hymnal, the Diehards drown out market noise." | | --Jason Zweig, quoted in The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing
chisey
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by chisey »

dbr wrote:I don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here do look at investing and what Jack Bogle says about it and figure out what makes sense. It does turn out for those people that the result is generally similar to but not always the same as what Mr. Bogle has said on the whole over the years. A person who invests by "following" anyone is a fool.

Oh, and a lot of what makes sense can actually be implemented because Mr. Bogle made it possible in Vanguard funds. That does not mean there aren't ways to do the same thing using investments elsewhere, and it certainly does not mean one has to place one's money "at" Vanguard.
All of the +s.

I don't care about all the "Bogle says" and "Bogle does" arguments that have arisen here, on the Morningstar forums, and elsewhere. Bogle's broad philosophy matches my own and I thank him a million times over for what he's done for mutual fund investing. Beyond that I don't "follow" him.
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by nisiprius »

Last edited by nisiprius on Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
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VictoriaF
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by VictoriaF »

[I removed my response to Nisi's teasing wisecrack--Victoria]
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by nisiprius »

VictoriaF wrote:We never had a predictable financial environment. My statement that you cited is general, not period-specific. Victoria
Apologies. I blanked my posting.
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Rexindex
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Rexindex »

Confuscious wrote:Im curious why we choose to follow the Bogle ideals and to what extent we follow those ideals. is the Bogle ideology ever expanding and changing? Do we follow because we feel that is the best way to make money? How long have we been following? Is it just a fad that we will look back on in x years and question?
Over extended periods of time, it is factually correct that very, very few people can beat the market. Add in the costs for trying and the number thins even more. Its that simple, so keeping a simple, low cost portfolio of index funds proves to be the best way for most people to earn a fair rate of return from the market.

Keep costs low, resist the urge to buy and sell when markets fluctuate, rebalance when necessary and stick to the plan.
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Dirghatamas
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Dirghatamas »

dbr wrote:I don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here do look at investing and what Jack Bogle says about it and figure out what makes sense. It does turn out for those people that the result is generally similar to but not always the same as what Mr. Bogle has said on the whole over the years. A person who invests by "following" anyone is a fool.

Oh, and a lot of what makes sense can actually be implemented because Mr. Bogle made it possible in Vanguard funds. That does not mean there aren't ways to do the same thing using investments elsewhere, and it certainly does not mean one has to place one's money "at" Vanguard.
+ infinity :happy
Dang I wrote my reply but then read this post by dbr before posting mine. There was no need to bother posting my reply. This is exactly right, nothing more to add.
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goingup
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by goingup »

Confuscious wrote:Im curious why we choose to follow the Bogle ideals and to what extent we follow those ideals.
I try to follow the ideals, and definitely listen closely when Jack Bogle speaks. But I can't ascribe to following every nuanced position. I'm never fond of of it when someone here intones what a true Boglehead would do. (gack)

Taylor Larimore (Bogleheads Guide to Investing) really led me understand what Jack Bogle was about. From there I read Jack's books, as well as the other BH authors. I'm not a cynic--Jack Bogle is the real deal, championing issues that matter to investors.
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by LateStarter1975 »

Call_Me_Op wrote:Many of us stumbled upon John Bogle as we were in search of the truth. We found that he is knowledgeable, honest, and his ideas are based upon common sense and "the relentless rules of humble arithmetic." In other words, it is hard to argue with the basic tenets of Bogle's philosophy because they are true and easily understood. While we can quibble around the edges, it is hard to argue that active management in aggregate must under-perform by the amount of the costs and so therefore, for whatever asset classes you choose to own, indexing is a winning strategy.
+2
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Toons
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Toons »

Index funds and,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Expenses :happy
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careytilden
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by careytilden »

I think of it like an affinity group. Most of us share similar ideas with Bogle; we read what he writes and think, "that's my kind of guy." It makes us feel good. Then we argue about the details endlessly. :beer
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Fallible »

chisey wrote:
dbr wrote:I don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here don't follow Jack Bogle. A lot of people here do look at investing and what Jack Bogle says about it and figure out what makes sense. It does turn out for those people that the result is generally similar to but not always the same as what Mr. Bogle has said on the whole over the years. A person who invests by "following" anyone is a fool.

Oh, and a lot of what makes sense can actually be implemented because Mr. Bogle made it possible in Vanguard funds. That does not mean there aren't ways to do the same thing using investments elsewhere, and it certainly does not mean one has to place one's money "at" Vanguard.
All of the +s.

I don't care about all the "Bogle says" and "Bogle does" arguments that have arisen here, on the Morningstar forums, and elsewhere. Bogle's broad philosophy matches my own and I thank him a million times over for what he's done for mutual fund investing. Beyond that I don't "follow" him.
Very much the way I feel about his "broad philosophy." I do, however, consider myself a follower of that philosophy and greatly admire him beyond indexing. I certainly don't consider myself what I think (and I may be wrong) dbr refers to as a following "fool," and assume he meant those who follow blindly, i.e., without question, unthinking, or mindlessly.
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by dbr »

Fallible wrote:
Very much the way I feel about his "broad philosophy." I do, however, consider myself a follower of that philosophy and greatly admire him beyond indexing. I certainly don't consider myself what I think (and I may be wrong) dbr refers to as a following "fool," and assume he meant those who follow blindly, i.e., without question, unthinking, or mindlessly.
Of course.
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Fallible »

dbr wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Very much the way I feel about his "broad philosophy." I do, however, consider myself a follower of that philosophy and greatly admire him beyond indexing. I certainly don't consider myself what I think (and I may be wrong) dbr refers to as a following "fool," and assume he meant those who follow blindly, i.e., without question, unthinking, or mindlessly.
Of course.
Then again, one could blindly follow the Boglehead philosophy and do quite well.
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
dbr
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by dbr »

Fallible wrote:
dbr wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Very much the way I feel about his "broad philosophy." I do, however, consider myself a follower of that philosophy and greatly admire him beyond indexing. I certainly don't consider myself what I think (and I may be wrong) dbr refers to as a following "fool," and assume he meant those who follow blindly, i.e., without question, unthinking, or mindlessly.
Of course.
Then again, one could blindly follow the Boglehead philosophy and do quite well.
Yes, maybe, though I am not sure that "blindly follow a philosophy" is not an oxymoron. The issue for me is all the questions about trying to follow every instance of "Jack just said . . ., should I . . .? "
fortyofforty
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by fortyofforty »

Because nobody knows nothin', that's why.
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by Fallible »

dbr wrote:
Fallible wrote:
dbr wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Very much the way I feel about his "broad philosophy." I do, however, consider myself a follower of that philosophy and greatly admire him beyond indexing. I certainly don't consider myself what I think (and I may be wrong) dbr refers to as a following "fool," and assume he meant those who follow blindly, i.e., without question, unthinking, or mindlessly.
Of course.
Then again, one could blindly follow the Boglehead philosophy and do quite well.
Yes, maybe, though I am not sure that "blindly follow a philosophy" is not an oxymoron. The issue for me is all the questions about trying to follow every instance of "Jack just said . . ., should I . . .? "
I was thinking 'blindly following' in the sense that what is being followed is not well understood or is even misunderstood. Someone could index simply because others he knows are indexing. Agree on "every instance of Jack."
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
jimcrawford01
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by jimcrawford01 »

Confuscious wrote: Is it just a fad that we will look back on in x years and question?
I doubt that many BHs invest via fads.

I view Mr Bogle as the only honest person on Wall St.

His philosophy makes sense and has withstood the test of time, especially when compared to alternatives.

His honesty has allowed myself and many others to invest wisely and participate in the rewards of doing so.

I am forever grateful that I was exposed to Mr Bogle.

Thanks Jack. You da man!!

Jim
wesgreen
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by wesgreen »

I've been reading about investing for over 30 years and have not come across anyone, or any strategy, that makes more sense to me (or is a better fit for my circumstances - selfemployed musician, not much interest in finance or owning stuff, comparatively low income and expenses, need to selfinsure for health and retirement). I would consider myself maybe a half blind follower, since I try to check out the numbers when he says something, but my math is strictly amateur.
Wish I had read about him at age 18. I'm trying to introduce fellow artists, especially young ones, to his writings and this site. He's the Louis Armstrong of investing to me. Go on with your bad self, Mr. Bogle!
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MEA
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by MEA »

Because I don't have time for a do-over. For most people it can take 25 to 30 years to build wealth.

Think of it like sleepwalking. If I'm sleepwalking I can get up walk around the house, get a drink, and walk back to bed. All in the dark. If I wake up I have a hard time just getting to a light switch. I move slow. I'm more or less paralyzed with fear because I might stub my toe, or walk into a wall.

Passive investing works because it takes your brain out of the game.
“Stay the course is the most important piece of advice I can give you.”-Bogle
psystal
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Re: Why Bogle?

Post by psystal »

wesgreen wrote: Wish I had read about him at age 18. I'm trying to introduce fellow artists, especially young ones, to his writings and this site.
+1

I'm only 30, but I just discovered the Boglehead philosophy last year. We ingrain in kids from a young age that stock picking and trading is this wonderful concept (many high schools even have stock market clubs/competitions), and I was no different. If someone would have introduced me to these simple concepts at age 15 when I first started working, I'd have a much more substantial nest egg today. Spread the word to the next generation - they'll thank you for it.
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