[Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

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kcyahoo
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[Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by kcyahoo » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:37 am

[Title was: Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund. Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

Does anyone know why October dividends for the Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund are dramatically down? Thanks

*NOTE FROM MODERATOR MEL: - Vanguard is aware of the dividend issue and is working to resolve it. All clients will be paid the full dividends due them. Thank you for your patience.
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Re: Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund

Post by JDDS » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:51 am

To expand, the distributions page shows a normal-sized dividend:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... =INT#tab=4

My Vanguard account is showing about 5% of the dividend though. Somebody has some splaining to do... I'm sure they'll get it fixed in the next few days.

In case it matters, I own the investor shares VFICX

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Re: Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund

Post by jhfenton » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:00 am

Interesting. I was about to post a link to the same distributions page showing that the distributions aren't down compared to prior months. But it sounds like there's a discrepancy between the reported distributions and the distributions reinvested.

They show as payable on 11/02/15. Do reinvested dividends usually show up on the reinvest date or the payable date (having been reinvested at the reinvest date price)? I'm brand new to Vanguard (and I don't own that fund).

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Re: Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund

Post by JDDS » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:04 am

jhfenton wrote:Interesting. I was about to post a link to the same distributions page showing that the distributions aren't down compared to prior months. But it sounds like there's a discrepancy between the reported distributions and the distributions reinvested.

They show as payable on 11/02/15. Do reinvested dividends usually show up on the reinvest date or the payable date (having been reinvested at the reinvest date price)? I'm brand new to Vanguard (and I don't own that fund).
I have them reinvested. The transaction history shows them reinvested on the reinvest date w/the reinvest price. The records don't show up for you until the overnight computer run though, so today I can see the transaction record dated yesterday. It is showing a low dollar amount and thus a low share count.

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Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by MKP » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:59 pm

I was just checking my Vanguard account and updating my month end numbers and noticed I was paid almost no dividend for this month. My account has a distribution recorded as follows:

10/30/2015 Dividend Received 0.0480 at $10.76
$0.52

I currently hold 750.796 shares, so I am not sure how this is correct in any way. Vanguard's distribution page lists a dividend of .02145 which should result in a distribution of $16.10.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... =INT#tab=4

Has anyone ever had an issue like this before? Did you have an error with VBMFX this month?

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by navyitaly » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:03 pm

When you called Vanguard they said....

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by MKP » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:09 pm

navyitaly wrote:When you called Vanguard they said....
Was curious if anyone had seen it, if someone says it will work itself out I would just wait it out. Also, they aren't open today. :happy

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by NonnyGoGo » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:12 pm

Happened to me with a different fund. I sent an email but I bet they will fix it by Monday.

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by EnjoyIt » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:13 pm

MKP wrote:I was just checking my Vanguard account and updating my month end numbers and noticed I was paid almost no dividend for this month. My account has a distribution recorded as follows:

10/30/2015 Dividend Received 0.0480 at $10.76
$0.52

I currently hold 750.796 shares, so I am not sure how this is correct in any way. Vanguard's distribution page lists a dividend of .02145 which should result in a distribution of $16.10.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... =INT#tab=4

Has anyone ever had an issue like this before? Did you have an error with VBMFX this month?
I have the same thing in my vanguard int-term tax exempt muni fund. My plan is to wait till Tuesday before I call and ask. I bet it will work itself out.

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by BoxOfUpticks » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:13 pm

MKP -
I found the same thing for VPAIX & VBISX this month. I never saw this before. I double checked the math for my funds, and it's clearly Vanguard's fault, either in calculating or posted incorrect distributions in the funds' pages.

I almost posted asking if anyone else had this happen, but figured i'd get snarky responses, as you did:
navyitaly wrote:When you called Vanguard they said....
Yeah, really helpful, thanks.

From "Contact Us" when logged into vanguard:
Monday to Friday
8 a.m. to 10 p.m. Eastern time

MKP - Thanks for posting your query, as it confirmed i'm not the only one.


EDIT - changed tense regarding double checking math, to reflect that i double checked the math for my funds.
Last edited by BoxOfUpticks on Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by DSInvestor » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:14 pm

Did you hold those 750.796 shares for the entire month? I believe your fund declares dividends daily and distributes monthly. For funds that do this, you get the dividend for the days that you've held those shares. If you bought your fund shares on OCT 27, you'd be paid smaller dividend than if you had bought or owned the same number of shares on SEP 30.
Last edited by DSInvestor on Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by MKP » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:15 pm

BoxOfUpticks wrote:MKP -
I found the same thing for VPAIX & VBISX this month. I never saw this before. Double checked the math, and it's clearly Vanguard's fault, either in calculating or posted incorrect distributions in the funds' pages.
Unless they offset the distribution (somehow) and posted the wrong amount on the distribution page, it looks like they didnt do the math correctly when applying the dividend to my account. (dist*shares)
Last edited by MKP on Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by BoxOfUpticks » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:18 pm

DSInvestor wrote:Did you hold those 750.796 shares for the entire month?
Excellent point, thanks! In my case, it does not apply, though, had the shares the whole month.
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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by MKP » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:19 pm

double post
Last edited by MKP on Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by MKP » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:20 pm

BoxOfUpticks wrote:
DSInvestor wrote:Did you hold those 750.796 shares for the entire month?
Excellent point, thanks! In my case, it does not apply, though, had the shares the whole month.
The only activity on this fund is the monthly distributions and I have had it since last year.

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by JDDS » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:23 pm

Clearly lots of Vanguard bond funds held at Vanguard are having this problem: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176763&newpost=2673348

btw when did they stop doing customer service on Saturday?

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by DSInvestor » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:25 pm

MKP wrote:
BoxOfUpticks wrote:
DSInvestor wrote:Did you hold those 750.796 shares for the entire month?
Excellent point, thanks! In my case, it does not apply, though, had the shares the whole month.
The only activity on this fund is the monthly distributions and I have had it since last year.
My dividend from Total Bond Admiral was correct and I held the fund shares all month. Was there any fee that could have been subtracted for say small account or Annual 401k annual fee per fund? Sometimes those fees may be taken out of fund distributions.
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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by MKP » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:31 pm

DSInvestor wrote:
MKP wrote:
BoxOfUpticks wrote:
DSInvestor wrote:Did you hold those 750.796 shares for the entire month?
Excellent point, thanks! In my case, it does not apply, though, had the shares the whole month.
The only activity on this fund is the monthly distributions and I have had it since last year.
My dividend from Total Bond Admiral was correct and I held the fund shares all month. Was there any fee that could have been subtracted for say small account or Annual 401k annual fee per fund? Sometimes those fees may be taken out of fund distributions.
Nope, mine is in a roth. Fees for Solo 401k are in July/August.

ETA: I sent vanguard a message - we will see what happens.

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Re: Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund

Post by ruralavalon » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:34 pm

We have Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares (VFIDX), we have the dividends reinvested. Our "dividends and capital gains summary" for "dividends received" show that they are up slightly for October for both dollar amount and shares transacted. This is in a rollover IRA.
Last edited by ruralavalon on Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund

Post by MKP » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:36 pm

Apparently multiple funds are having issues.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176776&p=2673553#p2673553

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by BoxOfUpticks » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm

DSInvestor wrote:My dividend from Total Bond Admiral was correct and I held the fund shares all month
Same here.
DSInvestor wrote:Sometimes those fees may be taken out of fund distributions.
No fees here either, but another good point, thanks!. i've had both funds for a long time with no activity other than dividends/cg -- no fees.

The two funds that experienced a problem are held in another account, though.

I sent a secure message via vanguard's website detailing the math. It'll be an interesting morning for them Monday.

Oh, and all my accounts are still mutual fund only accounts (not brokerage), not that that should make a difference.
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Re: Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund

Post by Kevin M » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:55 pm

Admiral shares in one account showing normal dividend. Investor shares in another account showing tiny dividend. Definitely something weird going on. Anyone contacted VG about it yet?

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Vanguard Ohio MM and LT Bond Funds Dividends

Post by KlingKlang » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:04 pm

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

Did anyone else notice a problem with the Vanguard Ohio Tax-Exempt Money Market (VOHXX) and Ohio Long-Term Tax-Exempt (VOHIX) funds dividend received transactions for this month? The totals look OK but the dividend amounts are about 3% of what they should be.

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Re: Vanguard Ohio MM and LT Bond Funds Dividends

Post by runner9 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:22 pm

How are you determining it's 3% of what it should be?

Is this 3% of what the posted distribution amount is or are you saying the amount posted is not calculated correctly?

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... =INT#tab=4
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... =INT#tab=4

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Re: Vanguard Ohio MM and LT Bond Funds Dividends

Post by KlingKlang » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:33 pm

Thank you for the tables. VOHIX which had a $391.80 distribution last month only shows a $12.77 distribution for this month, but the total on the balances page is $410.08 higher with the fund price unchanged. Right now I'll assume that it's a glitch and phone in if it isn't cleared up on Monday.

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by KlingKlang » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:14 pm

Had the same problem with VOHXX and VOHIX. Dividends are posted way low but the balances look correct.

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Re: Vanguard Ohio MM and LT Bond Funds Dividends

Post by runner9 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:22 pm

Looks like there are glitches on other funds as well:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176776&newpost=2673660

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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by LadyGeek » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:31 pm

^^^ I merged KlingKlang's thread into here. The combined thread is now in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum (calculating dividends).
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by LadyGeek » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:37 pm

Piling on, I merged kcyahoo's post into here. The software sorts by time, so kcyahoo's post appears first.

If anyone needs help understanding how to double-check the Dividend, post here.
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by Doc » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:46 pm

It's the Vanguard Brokerage Service platform. Dividends that reinvested on the last day of the month will not post until the next business day. Everything will be OK on Monday.

(I hope.)
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by corpgator » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:22 pm

I noticed this as well, but I track the number of shares that I have and they went up the correct amount on auto-reinvest, but the transaction history page shows the wrong amount.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by MKP » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:15 pm

corpgator wrote:I noticed this as well, but I track the number of shares that I have and they went up the correct amount on auto-reinvest, but the transaction history page shows the wrong amount.
nice catch! My share count is correct, however the distribution amount is wrong. As long as I have the correct # of shares, I dont care that much.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by Kevin M » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:30 pm

Doc wrote:It's the Vanguard Brokerage Service platform. Dividends that reinvested on the last day of the month will not post until the next business day.
Doesn't make sense. VBS isn't even required for mutual funds (old platform anyway). Like I said up-thread, correct dividend for admiral shares in one account, incorrect tiny dividend for investor shares in another account. Dividends not reinvested in either account, and there is a VBS account "associated" with each of these VB mutual fund accounts.

Agree that it probably will be fixed Monday. Not worried.

I wonder if this affected anyone who had dividends transferred to an external bank account. Not a problem for the tax-exempt bond funds in my taxable account, where dividends are transferred to external account.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by The529guy » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:49 pm

Thanks for this thread. My dividends for VUSTX and VCITX are also awry.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by Doc » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:09 pm

Kevin M wrote:Doesn't make sense. VBS isn't even required for mutual funds (old platform anyway).
Agreed doesn't make sense.

On the "old" Vanguard mutual fund platform dividends for (most) bond funds posted on the last day of the month. On the "new" Vanguard Brokerage Service platform they don't post until the next business day. I though perhaps this is what people were seeing since for the current calendar the next business day is after the weekend. If their was another business day in the same week after the dividend reinvested nobody may have noticed the difference. Is this whole thing about reinvesting dividends instead of sending them to MM account? On "old" platform dividends to MM account was an exchange which happened on same business day. On "new" VBS account dividends go to cash (or pending?) and don't' sweep until the following business day. There is a concept in brokerage accounts of "trade date balance". (This is not just a Vg thing.) I don't really understand the concept.
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by The529guy » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:14 pm

This isn't a VBS problem. None of my bond funds are held using VBS - I haven't been invited to the account merger yet. Two funds were screwed up, while one received dividends as expected. All three are set to reinvest dividends.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by Doc » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:29 pm

The529guy wrote:This isn't a VBS problem. None of my bond funds are held using VBS - I haven't been invited to the account merger yet. Two funds were screwed up, while one received dividends as expected. All three are set to reinvest dividends.
OK. I've been perplexed with some of the "oddities" of the new platform. I thought this was just another one. Since I will not know whether my dividends are correct until the "next business day" I will have to wait.
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Re: Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:47 pm

MKP wrote:I was just checking my Vanguard account and updating my month end numbers and noticed I was paid almost no dividend for this month. My account has a distribution recorded as follows:

10/30/2015 Dividend Received 0.0480 at $10.76
$0.52

I currently hold 750.796 shares, so I am not sure how this is correct in any way. Vanguard's distribution page lists a dividend of .02145 which should result in a distribution of $16.10.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... =INT#tab=4

Has anyone ever had an issue like this before? Did you have an error with VBMFX this month?
^^^ This is for Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund Investor Shares (VBMFX)

I just checked my account, as I have Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund Admiral Shares (VBTLX) which has the same distribution info. With the actual values removed, I see:

10/30/2015 Dividend Received (number of shares) at $10.76 $(amount)

Which arrives at the correct $(amount) = (number of shares x $10.76/share). MKP's error is in the number of shares, not the price. If it matters, this fund is in a tax-deferred account.

Update: This example shows an error in the investor share class, but not the admiral share class. See below.
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by Kevin M » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:54 pm

Doc wrote:I though perhaps this is what people were seeing since for the current calendar the next business day is after the weekend.
Not for me. Old platform, and seeing the problem for one fund (investor shares).
Is this whole thing about reinvesting dividends instead of sending them to MM account? On "old" platform dividends to MM account was an exchange which happened on same business day. On "new" VBS account dividends go to cash (or pending?) and don't' sweep until the following business day.
Well, I'm on old platform for all accounts, dividends are not reinvested in either, but are sent to MM (because these are IRAs, so can't send them to external account without tax consequences), and I'm seeing the problem in the investor shares version in one account but not for the admiral shares version in another.

In reference to other replies, since I don't reinvest, the number of shares is not a factor for me; all I see is the dollar amount.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:01 pm

Good point. Perhaps the problem could be in the investor share classes, but not admiral? That's what I'm seeing in my previous post.
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by msimon » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:12 pm

Here is a way to check this issue in a systematic way.

Go to the page listing the per share distribution amounts for the bond fund in question. There you will see a multiplier for the amount of income per share.

For example for VFICX (Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund Investor Shares) the 10/30/2015 distribution amount is 0.02570 $ per share at a reinvest price of 9.78. This distribution amount only applies if no other transactions changed the share balance of your account since your last income dividend.

If N is the number of shares you held on 9/30/2015 and no other transactions occurred, the total income distribution would be N * 0.0257 rounded to 2 decimal places. If you reinvest your dividends the number of shares reinvested is the previous amount divided by 9.78 rounded to 3 decimal places.

In my case the transaction information on my VFICX is clearly way too low. More interestingly if I use the official per share numbers for the fund I calculate a number of shares to be reinvested SMALLER than the actual change in my share balance. However if I add the weird small share change listed in my transaction information for 10/30/2015 to the number calculated from the per share distribution amounts, I get the actual change in the number of shares for my fund (within .001 shares).

This leads me to believe there was some error in the dividend amount that was only partly corrected in Vanguards computer systems. The tiny income dividend listed in the per account transaction data likely reflects the correction for the error. The per share distribution amount listed under the mutual fund data is clearly incorrect since it does not translate into the proper change in the number of shares when reinvesting the dividend.
Last edited by msimon on Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by The529guy » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:14 pm

LadyGeek wrote:Good point. Perhaps the problem could be in the investor share classes, but not admiral? That's what I'm seeing in my previous post.
That seemed like a good hypothesis, but when I went back to check, my fund that performed properly is Investor class.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by Kevin M » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:18 pm

The529guy wrote:
LadyGeek wrote:Good point. Perhaps the problem could be in the investor share classes, but not admiral? That's what I'm seeing in my previous post.
That seemed like a good hypothesis, but when I went back to check, my fund that performed properly is Investor class.
But do you hold both classes of the same fund in different accounts? That's my situation, and how I see the discrepancy.

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by Kevin M » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:19 pm

msimon wrote:Here is a way to check this issue in a systematic way.
Or you can just observe that your dividend last month was $100, and this month it's $2, and you haven't sold any shares. ;-)

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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:26 pm

The529guy wrote:That seemed like a good hypothesis, but when I went back to check, my fund that performed properly is Investor class.
^^^ Thanks (Kevin M's first spotted this, though). The next hypothesis is that the problem is occurring deep inside a database that's not related to the fund info.

In many major corporations, the website is an aggregation of many databases - fund pricing, customer support, user accounts, status, analysis engines, search engines, you name it - there's a database to match. There's a ton of underlying development to glue all of this together so that the user interface (meaning you) sees everything as an integrated website.

(I saw this for myself during the Bogleheads Conference visit to Vanguard. They were demonstrating a new user interface and explained how much work this is to coordinate everything. I understood completely and gave them a sympathetic ear for this perspective.)

I'm betting the error is occurring at one of those underlying databases. It won't make sense until the root cause is found.
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The529guy
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by The529guy » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:28 pm

Kevin M wrote:
The529guy wrote:
LadyGeek wrote:Good point. Perhaps the problem could be in the investor share classes, but not admiral? That's what I'm seeing in my previous post.
That seemed like a good hypothesis, but when I went back to check, my fund that performed properly is Investor class.
But do you hold both classes of the same fund in different accounts? That's my situation, and how I see the discrepancy.

Kevin
No, I hold three different bond funds, all Investor class. No Investor/Admiral duplication.

I see the discrepancy for two funds because October's dividends are both less than 5% of September's dividends, despite underlying balances that have only increased.

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kcyahoo
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by kcyahoo » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:29 pm

"Kevin M"
I wonder if this affected anyone who had dividends transferred to an external bank account. Not a problem for the tax-exempt bond funds in my taxable account, where dividends are transferred to external account.

Kevin
Yes, I originally saw this problem when the dividend amount posted to an external bank account did not make sense.
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MKP
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by MKP » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:06 pm

deleted
Last edited by MKP on Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mel Lindauer
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by Mel Lindauer » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:13 pm

NOTE FROM MODERATOR MEL:

Vanguard is aware of the dividend issue and is working to resolve it. All clients will be paid the full dividends due them. Thank you for your patience.
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi

GoldenFinch
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Re: [Vanguard Calculated Dividend Incorrectly]

Post by GoldenFinch » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:18 pm

^^Thank you!

It was funny for me because I bought bonds for the first time in early August after reading all the"WHY BONDS" threads and I saw the paltry dividend the other day and thought, "Why bonds?"
Last edited by GoldenFinch on Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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