What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

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Dandy
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by Dandy » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:19 am

A decent portion of my fixed income is in CDs and EE bonds and savings accounts. They aren't required to show the expensesprofits that are taken from the yield. I'm sure if I saw what my CDs were invested in and what the bank takes off the top I'd be angry. Given that my estimate is about .06%

freedom66
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by freedom66 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:35 am

Yet another vote for 0.09 for entire portfolio.

feh
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by feh » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:40 am

.16% (weighted)

NHRATA01
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by NHRATA01 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:43 am

I enjoy that this thread has so many responses which proves I'm not the only nerd out there calculating the effective ER of my retirement portfolio!

As of month-end February, just updated about an hour ago:

My 401K - 0.0872
My Roth IRA - 0.0871
Wife's 457b - 0.0736 (Wife's Roth IRA is 100% in TD2045 until enough $ to do a 3-fund, so I didn't count it)

Grand total = 0.0866

Even totaled it up down to the dollar. :)


EDIT Asset allocation as follows:

77% Stocks (22% Intl, 10% REIT)
23% Bonds
Last edited by NHRATA01 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

KlangFool
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:44 am

0.16% Overall portfolio expense ratio as reported by Vanguard Portfolio watch. Not including my Fidelity 401K A/C.

KlangFool

d0gerz
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by d0gerz » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:46 am

0.12%

Want it to be lower but don't have good options in the 401k. Everything there is in a total stock market fund with a 0.22% ER. That plus VTIAX at 0.14%.

SteadyWins
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by SteadyWins » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:48 am

Another .09 here just for 401k.

pacodelostigres
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by pacodelostigres » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:51 am

13bps weighted, which is:

42% Vanguard Intermediate Bond at 20bps (the only decent choice in DW 401k)
38% VTSAX at 5bps
20% VTIAX at 14bps

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SpringMan
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by SpringMan » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:51 am

Overall ER is .16%. Could get it lower but can't bring myself to dump PRWCX, TRP Capital Appreciation, its ER is .73%. PRWCX is also closed to new investors.
Best Wishes, SpringMan

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max12377
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by max12377 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:05 am

Another vote for .09.

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House Blend
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by House Blend » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:11 am

I have ~9% in TIAA Traditional. It doesn't have an ER (or a ticker symbol for that matter), but it obviously has expenses.

The other 91% has a dollar-weighted ER of about 16.5bp.

More than half of those expenses are due to a ~9% stake in TIAA Real Estate (ER=0.87%).

The remaining ~82% has a dollar-weighted ER of about 8.5bp.

This doesn't take into account the fact that in the past few years, two of my employee retirement accounts have had negative fees. That is, extra cash proportional to the account balance has been deposited annually. (Not to be confused with employer contributions.) Last year, this amounted to an extra ~1.5bp bonus.

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ruralavalon
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by ruralavalon » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:16 am

0.0756% overall

Highest ER is Vanguard Total international Stock index Fund VTIAX 0.14%.
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packet
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by packet » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:41 am

Total Blended ER for portfolio...

Currently = 0.1271%
Will reduce to ~= 0.1127% this summer (after a little cleanup)
Will grow towards ~= 0.16% as the most active savings points are 0.16% and 0.17%

I'll be happy if I retire at or below 0.16%

What is everyone else's "happy point" (skipping "the lower the better", of course)?

:beerCheers,
Packet
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g$$
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by g$$ » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:58 pm

0.07%

:moneybag

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xyz12
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by xyz12 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:07 pm

0.09%

Like many here, I'm fortunate to have extremely low cost funds in my 401K.

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Meg77
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by Meg77 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:18 pm

I didn't know the answer to this until recently when I joined Personal Capital. They calculate it for you over all accounts and funds. My husband an I have a 0.13 total expense ratio in our investments. It would be lower except that my 401k doesn't have any funds under 60 bps, and it's about a fifth of our total investments. :(
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NateH
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by NateH » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:36 pm

Weighted ER = 0.111%
more important is that it has been around that for many years.

Our most expensive fund is 0.34% ER STAR fund in my son's education IRA.
It is twice as expensive as the equivalent life-strategy funds, but it keeps outperforming them.
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therub
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by therub » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:49 pm

.19(weighted). I suspect anyone under .10 to not have any meaningful amount of international - I'm (pretty much) evenly weighted domestic/international. I also only have 10% in bonds, due to my age.
Fees are the rub.

investor1
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by investor1 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:21 pm

Meg77 wrote:I didn't know the answer to this until recently when I joined Personal Capital. They calculate it for you over all accounts and funds. My husband an I have a 0.13 total expense ratio in our investments. It would be lower except that my 401k doesn't have any funds under 60 bps, and it's about a fifth of our total investments. :(
It is just a weighted average. For each fund you own, take its ER and multiply it by the percentage of your portfolio. Take the summation of those products.

For example:
Take a three fund portfolio held in VG Admiral shares with 40% TSM, 20% TISM, and 40% TBM:

VTSAX's ER = 0.05%
VTIAX ER = 0.14%
VBTLX ER = 0.08%

(0.05 * 0.40) + (0.14 * 0.20) + (0.08 * 0.40) = 0.08

Your weighted average is 0.08%.

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Uncle Pennybags
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by Uncle Pennybags » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:52 pm

Dandy wrote:A decent portion of my fixed income is in CDs and EE bonds and savings accounts. They aren't required to show the expensesprofits that are taken from the yield. I'm sure if I saw what my CDs were invested in and what the bank takes off the top I'd be angry. Given that my estimate is about .06%
I have about 20% in emergency funds, saving and checking that I didn't figure in my 0.12 expense ratio. I don't consider FDIC insured accounts investments, they are savings.

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LadyGeek
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:59 pm

This thread is now in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum (general investing). I also retitled the thread.

baw703916 has started a poll: Poll: Average E/R [Expense Ratio]

It makes sense to merge the threads, but doing so will reset the poll (or remove it). I'll leave the threads separate.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

krannerd
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by krannerd » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:32 pm

0.11 My 401k cut fees in half last year.

Hank Moody
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by Hank Moody » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:18 pm

About the same as mine. Small and value tilts, plus a decent dose of small and value on the international side including EM get me there.
backpacker wrote:I'll pipe up as a "high" ER investor. I have an ER of .34 mostly because my entire portfolio is tilted towards value stocks and small stocks. I'm happy to pay more for higher loadings, especially internationally. :happy
-HM

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steve roy
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by steve roy » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:34 pm

12 basis points.

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LadyGeek
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:39 pm

For new investors, 100 basis points is equal to 1%. See: Basis point

0.01 (decimal) = 1 % (percent) = 100 bp (basis points)

Basis points are used when working small numbers like expense ratios or bond yields, for example.
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baw703916
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by baw703916 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:57 pm

LadyGeek wrote:small numbers like expense ratios
Hopefully they're small numbers, lol!
Most of my posts assume no behavioral errors.

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fourwedge
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by fourwedge » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:06 am

.16 because I have some DFA funds with my VG funds (or it would be .08)
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heartandsoul
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by heartandsoul » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:54 am

Be careful with looking only at ER when assessing funds. Bid/offer spreads, commissions and tracking error may also add to overall costs. If you really are a long-term-buy-and-hold investor then the first two are less important of course.
'Life is a strange thing. Just when you think you learned how to use it. It's gone' SS

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Uncle Pennybags
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by Uncle Pennybags » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:17 am

heartandsoul wrote:. Bid/offer spreads, commissions and tracking error may also add to overall costs.
I own all of my investments directly with Vanguard I don't do bid/offer/commissions.

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empb
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by empb » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:23 am

0.43%. Extortion!

dkturner
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by dkturner » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:07 am

.15

I like Vanguard's low cost actively managed funds.

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artthomp
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by artthomp » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:39 am

0.11% - all Vanguard Admiral index funds or ETFs.
Art

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kenyan
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by kenyan » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:29 am

A little higher than I'd like due to not having access to cheaper options in certain retirement plans (as well as some slice/dice costs). The egregious offender is the SIMPLE IRA at Oppenheimer, where I'm forced to pay over 200 bp, not counting the various other periodic fees. Portfolio ER drops every time I transfer out of that, but right now I'm only doing that twice per year; I may switch to quarterly transfers.

Anyhow, the answer is 25 bp. After my transfer next month, that'll drop to 20-21 bp.
Retirement investing is a marathon.

inbox788
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by inbox788 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Don't know exactly, but below 0.25. Probably between 0.15 to 0.2. Went through a purge a while back with 0.25 threshold. Now I'm getting rid of anything over 0.1, so when I'm done it will be somewhat below 0.1, probably between 0.06-0.08.

grog
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by grog » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:13 pm

I'm at 0.20. I have most of it in my 401K and that's about as low as it's gonna get for now.

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sperry8
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by sperry8 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:29 pm

17 funds... .29% ER. 60/40 Domestic/Int'l, highest ER .64% (Dodge & Cox Int'l)
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rtw318
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by rtw318 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:00 pm

26 bps here.

I have zero chance of getting into the single digits while I have PLFMX (72 bps ER) and PBOIX (84 bps ER) in my 403(b). Outrageous! :annoyed

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Seattlenative
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Re: What's your average ER?

Post by Seattlenative » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:20 pm

Uncle Pennybags wrote:
Dandy wrote:A decent portion of my fixed income is in CDs and EE bonds and savings accounts. They aren't required to show the expensesprofits that are taken from the yield. I'm sure if I saw what my CDs were invested in and what the bank takes off the top I'd be angry. Given that my estimate is about .06%
I have about 20% in emergency funds, saving and checking that I didn't figure in my 0.12 expense ratio. I don't consider FDIC insured accounts investments, they are savings.
Agreed. Certificates of deposit, U.S. Treasuries and Treasury Direct bonds, cash and money market, and bank checking and savings accounts should be excluded for purposes of developing a specific portfolio's aggregate ER.

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Seattlenative
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by Seattlenative » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:37 pm

What online tools have the rest of you found the most helpful in calculating your portfolio's aggregate expense ratio? I have used this Portfolio MER calculator - Portfolio MER Calculator, but I'm definitely wondering if there is a better one out there. Comparing their calculations with my information using Excel is pretty close (just over 0.011% is my portfolio's ER) but I'd really like to be as exact as possible.

FYI my investment portfolio is entirely within three traditional IRAs and two Roth IRAs, one of each is at Wellstrade and the rest at Schwab. I currently have some redundant holdings which I'm consolidating, but most are inexpensive. Here's my list of positions listed by ER, without listing my relative percentage weighting for each position:

0.04%: SCHB, SCHX; 0.05%: VTI; 0.06%: SCHZ
0.07%: SCHD, SCHH, SCHM, SCHP, SCHV
0.08%: SCHA, SCHF, SCHO
0.09%: VTV, SCHR; 0.10%: VTIP
0.14%: VXUS, SCHE; 0.17%: VT; 0.19%: SCHC;
0.24%: VNQI; 0.25%: SPLV; 0.32%: FNDX; 0.40%: EFV

[MER calculator link fixed by admin LadyGeek]
Last edited by Seattlenative on Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

livesoft
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by livesoft » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:41 pm

The online tools shown in this thread calculated not only averaged weighted expense ratio, but also asset allocation, 9-box style grids, lots of other things about your portfolio.
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Jaxfann
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by Jaxfann » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:41 pm

0.15%

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Uncle Pennybags
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by Uncle Pennybags » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:44 pm

Seattlenative wrote:What online tools have the rest of you found the most helpful in calculating your portfolio's aggregate expense ratio? I have used this Portfolio MER calculator -
Morningstar X-ray is good. If you use Quicken you can get the information from within the program.

Instant X-Ray

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Seattlenative
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by Seattlenative » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:54 pm

livesoft wrote:The online tools shown in this thread calculated not only averaged weighted expense ratio, but also asset allocation, 9-box style grids, lots of other things about your portfolio.
Schwab's Portfolio Checkup tool is very good, but unlike Portfolio Watch for Vanguard clients I haven't been able to find an average weighted expense ratio computation using Schwab's tool. I do have a "free" account with Futureadvisor and it has provided me an aggregate ER figure for my positions which I have manually inputted from the Schwab and Wellstrade IRAs. However, I dislike Futureadvisor for other reasons, i.e. classifying Vanguard Total World Stock (VT) as being 100% U.S. Large Cap, and other non-Boglehead "slice and dice" distractions.
Last edited by Seattlenative on Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

masteraleph
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by masteraleph » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:26 pm

Roughly .45, due to 401k and 403b (which make up about 2/3 of the portfolio and have ERs in the mid .6s; the other 1/3 is at Vanguard and helps bring the total down). Technically, it's actually a little lower than that right now, but TIAA Cref is going to be creating share classes in the next couple of months and that's going to raise it to the level I've stated.

Agamede
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by Agamede » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:17 pm

0.15% right now. I expect that to rise as I contribute more to my terrible SIMPLE IRA, then drop again as I convert to a traditional rollover IRA. As much as I'm grumpy about paying 1.2% on ANYTHING, it could be much worse.

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tigerman3
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by tigerman3 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:23 pm

Until I read all the previous posts, I thought I was doing exceptionally well with .11

heartandsoul
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by heartandsoul » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:48 am

Uncle Pennybags wrote:
heartandsoul wrote:. Bid/offer spreads, commissions and tracking error may also add to overall costs.
I own all of my investments directly with Vanguard I don't do bid/offer/commissions.
https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip ... daskspread
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Uncle Pennybags
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by Uncle Pennybags » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:51 am

heartandsoul wrote:
Uncle Pennybags wrote:
heartandsoul wrote:. Bid/offer spreads, commissions and tracking error may also add to overall costs.
I own all of my investments directly with Vanguard I don't do bid/offer/commissions.
https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip ... daskspread
Those are ETF; I have Admiral shares I buy myself, no broker necessary so ETFs low ER are not a factor.

red5
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by red5 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:45 am

tigerman3 wrote:Until I read all the previous posts, I thought I was doing exceptionally well with .11
You are doing exceptionally well with a weighted average ER of .11%. I feel once a portfolio's average ER gets really low (say, .25%) then other factors will outweigh the small differences between .08% and .11% and .20%.

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Steadfast
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Re: What's your average ER? [Expense Ratio]

Post by Steadfast » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:53 pm

0.10%
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