Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I opened a 529 plans for my son 5 years ago. I was allowed to put in a maximum contribution of $120,000 (that's a prepayment for 5 years). Five years have just expired and the 529 plan had increased to $190K. I just put put in another $110K for the next 5 years. Since there is now about $300K in the account I have already maxed out the lifetime contribution that I am able to make. My son is 6 years old and has another 12 years to college. I am wondering if perhaps I have put in too much? I have no idea what college will cost in 12 years. The investment is all in reits and small value index. I have another younger son (age 2) and he also has a 529 which I have just funded with $120K. I was thinking of not funding him anymore just in case the older son's 529 exceeds his actual needs (I can then transfer some to the younger son). Does this seem sound?
I think so. You can also split this plan and transfer some funds to another plan so that you don't go over the plan limit.
Many people that I talk to are paying less than $25K a year for their kids' college. Very few folks go to expensive colleges though the news media would have you believe that everyone needs to save a million or so to pay for. That's just fantasy.
Many people that I talk to are paying less than $25K a year for their kids' college. Very few folks go to expensive colleges though the news media would have you believe that everyone needs to save a million or so to pay for. That's just fantasy.
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ilan,
I am still in the first 5 year 529 gift period with son #1, but with a couple more on the way I am contemplating issues like this too. I have thought that probably $120K in contributions during infancy was about it for each, knowing that I'd probably rather have to contribute from elsewhere than to end up with much more in the 529 locations than was needed for all schooling. Still, it is most efficient if your guess (and 529 contributions) comes out to be just about right.
I consider the tuition and fees cost of a 4-year Ivy League program today to be a reasonable contribution goal. That should basically mean that if the returns match the tuition inflation rate, you'd be very close.
Now there is always graduate/professional school, and in my family that is the norm. And then there is the ability to shift beneficiary to a grandchild, and thus grow tax free for a rather long time. I can't imagine what your $300K would look like in 45-50 years, though, and how in the world it could all be spent on education. I think there is an inherent value in a legacy that "must" be used for education. Such in my mind is the location risk with the 529.
Now see if you agree with this. In the overall portfolio scheme, the least tax-efficient asset should go in the 529, and if that asset is taken from elsewhere in the portfolio, the net result of the translocation (with a tax-adjusted AA) is the same. Thus, for example, if you have already resolved to own TIPS and SCV, for example, you might at some point prefer to hold the TIPS in the 529 and the SCV elsewhere, to lessen the chance of the 529 becoming too large to realistically exhaust.
All this hyper-funding of 529s of course assumes retirement funding is well taken care of. A nice problem to have, though I myself am not quite there yet.
I am still in the first 5 year 529 gift period with son #1, but with a couple more on the way I am contemplating issues like this too. I have thought that probably $120K in contributions during infancy was about it for each, knowing that I'd probably rather have to contribute from elsewhere than to end up with much more in the 529 locations than was needed for all schooling. Still, it is most efficient if your guess (and 529 contributions) comes out to be just about right.
I consider the tuition and fees cost of a 4-year Ivy League program today to be a reasonable contribution goal. That should basically mean that if the returns match the tuition inflation rate, you'd be very close.
Now there is always graduate/professional school, and in my family that is the norm. And then there is the ability to shift beneficiary to a grandchild, and thus grow tax free for a rather long time. I can't imagine what your $300K would look like in 45-50 years, though, and how in the world it could all be spent on education. I think there is an inherent value in a legacy that "must" be used for education. Such in my mind is the location risk with the 529.
Now see if you agree with this. In the overall portfolio scheme, the least tax-efficient asset should go in the 529, and if that asset is taken from elsewhere in the portfolio, the net result of the translocation (with a tax-adjusted AA) is the same. Thus, for example, if you have already resolved to own TIPS and SCV, for example, you might at some point prefer to hold the TIPS in the 529 and the SCV elsewhere, to lessen the chance of the 529 becoming too large to realistically exhaust.
All this hyper-funding of 529s of course assumes retirement funding is well taken care of. A nice problem to have, though I myself am not quite there yet.
tuition
I think your plan to shift leftover $ from child 1 to child 2 is sound. It would seem time and compounding will provide more than enough.
FWIW, my 18 yr old is going to a college that will cost $45 M per year, starting next year. Her 529 is only 75% funded for all 4 years; we will make up the difference as needed. This cost is typical for a private (vs. state) school.
I am happy to help her do this without loans. It isn't just because I can afford it. It is really hard for kids who come out of school today to get jobs that pay enough for them to live independently (at least in NYC, where I am from). So I think if you can afford to give them the opportunity to start their adult lives debt free, it is a really great thing to be able to do for them. Just on person's opinion (FWIW, I went to state school, on loans, and paid them off over 10 years).
FWIW, my 18 yr old is going to a college that will cost $45 M per year, starting next year. Her 529 is only 75% funded for all 4 years; we will make up the difference as needed. This cost is typical for a private (vs. state) school.
I am happy to help her do this without loans. It isn't just because I can afford it. It is really hard for kids who come out of school today to get jobs that pay enough for them to live independently (at least in NYC, where I am from). So I think if you can afford to give them the opportunity to start their adult lives debt free, it is a really great thing to be able to do for them. Just on person's opinion (FWIW, I went to state school, on loans, and paid them off over 10 years).
I have placed only tax-inefficient REITS and Small cap value in the 529 plans as part of my overall AA. I have very limited tax-free space in my normal portfolio and view the 529 as literally a "free lunch". However,in 2007 an ivy league 4yr college costs about $35,000 a year tuition/board. That would mean $140K in todays dollars. If I assume that tuition costs increase slightly faster than inflation, then $300K of todays dollars is overkill.
If I let the money compound tax free and can't spend all of it on qualified expenses; would the 10% penalty and ultimate taxes still make this a good strategy? If the taxes paid are at ordinary income levels (I am in a high bracket) then I will have paid more taxes on the final amount than if I had kept this in a regular taxable account. Then again, I have the advantage of the compounding.
If I let the money compound tax free and can't spend all of it on qualified expenses; would the 10% penalty and ultimate taxes still make this a good strategy? If the taxes paid are at ordinary income levels (I am in a high bracket) then I will have paid more taxes on the final amount than if I had kept this in a regular taxable account. Then again, I have the advantage of the compounding.
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It should be able to go to your future grandchildren... or you can take it out with a 10% penalty and taxes on earnings.
Anyone know if the entire amount is 10% penalized or just the earnings above the contribution are penalized?
Im sure only the earnings are taxed on nonqualified distribution, because yo already paid taxes on the principal contribution, but not sure about penalty?
Anyone know if the entire amount is 10% penalized or just the earnings above the contribution are penalized?
Im sure only the earnings are taxed on nonqualified distribution, because yo already paid taxes on the principal contribution, but not sure about penalty?
Just the earnings. And if a beneficiary dies, you would could withdraw then and pay tax but no penalty. That isn't necessarily a great outcome (same deferral as a variable annuity, but expenses that may have been higher), but it's a good escape valve.allenmickers wrote:It should be able to go to your future grandchildren... or you can take it out with a 10% penalty and taxes on earnings.
Anyone know if the entire amount is 10% penalized or just the earnings above the contribution are penalized?
If you have the money, are willing to at least consider paying for future generations' education, and need to control taxable income from inefficient investments, a bunch of super-funded 529's is a very good plan.
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Yes of course the money accumulates! I think you can only do this once or twice though (switching beneficiaries) and each one has to be within a certain range of family (immediate family for a legitimate beneficiary switch I think)ilan1h wrote:What if it takes another 10-20 years to get grandchildren? Does the money continue to accumulate? I assume this is a way to avoid estate taxes.
tuition reality check
Ilan,
Just wanted to provide a reality check re: tuition. Your $35M/yr figure is way too low for a private college.
The undergraduate budget for my daughter's school next year, provided by the school itself, is $46,466...and only $1000 of that is for a category called "personal". This school's tuition is not atypical. The figure is even higher for certain majors...ie architecture students at $50,066, because of a higher computer/software expense.
My point is if you want to budget for a private school, in my opinion you are figurining $10,000 too low per year per kid ($80,000 too low in total). . You should add that into your mental calculus.
Just wanted to provide a reality check re: tuition. Your $35M/yr figure is way too low for a private college.
The undergraduate budget for my daughter's school next year, provided by the school itself, is $46,466...and only $1000 of that is for a category called "personal". This school's tuition is not atypical. The figure is even higher for certain majors...ie architecture students at $50,066, because of a higher computer/software expense.
My point is if you want to budget for a private school, in my opinion you are figurining $10,000 too low per year per kid ($80,000 too low in total). . You should add that into your mental calculus.
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Re: tuition reality check
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Ilan cites $35K per year for an Ivy League school - the only case I can think of where this would be true would be a NY State resident who attends one of the state-funded colleges within Cornell University. Otherwise, you're looking at close to $50K for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown, Penn, Columbia, or the private side of Cornell. You can get lower than that by living at home and commuting (probably saves around $10K of room & board costs), but I didn't get the sense that's what Ilan was thinking.hurshaw1 wrote:Just wanted to provide a reality check re: tuition. Your $35M/yr figure is way too low for a private college.
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One thing to note about your Virginia plan -- it requires that that fund be distributed within 10 years or, if the beneficiary hasn't graduated from high school yet, within 10 years of the beneficiary's graduation from high school. So if you're planning to transfer it to grandchildren not yet in existence, you'll need to roll it over to another state at some point (unless Va. changes its rules).ilan1h wrote:What if it takes another 10-20 years to get grandchildren? Does the money continue to accumulate? I assume this is a way to avoid estate taxes.
A question that I haven't seen anyone address (though I haven't done a search, either):
A 529 plan has the Roth-like quality of tax-free distributions (when qualified). If a rule of thumb is to select Roth assets with the highest expected return, so that the tax-free distributions can be maximized, then should the same rule of thumb also apply to 529 plans?
Of course, over a relatively shorter time period, it's more difficult to have confidence in expected returns. Would a balanced portfolio be appropriate in order to maximize the expected tax-free distributions?
It seems to me that a non-balanced 529 portfolio, allocated as part of an overall asset allocation, leaves open the possibility of forgoing tax-free distributions. Am I missing something, or is it that the tax-free distributions are worth less than optimized holistic portfolio (including retirement and taxable)?
A 529 plan has the Roth-like quality of tax-free distributions (when qualified). If a rule of thumb is to select Roth assets with the highest expected return, so that the tax-free distributions can be maximized, then should the same rule of thumb also apply to 529 plans?
Of course, over a relatively shorter time period, it's more difficult to have confidence in expected returns. Would a balanced portfolio be appropriate in order to maximize the expected tax-free distributions?
It seems to me that a non-balanced 529 portfolio, allocated as part of an overall asset allocation, leaves open the possibility of forgoing tax-free distributions. Am I missing something, or is it that the tax-free distributions are worth less than optimized holistic portfolio (including retirement and taxable)?
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with regards to school costs I visited several websites and collated the figures that were presented there for private schools. Not a single site came remotely close to $50,000. I attended an ivy league university in 1985 and the tuition was about $20K then (so I actually believe that it could have gone up to 50K). I also inquired about how they defined "living expenses"? Apparently, the schools present to the 529 plan what they consider to be normal "living expenses" and these can also be taken out of the 529. This obviously puts a damper on my idea of buying an expensive home for the kids and renting it to them while they go to school (rent coming out of the 529).
I refer you to collegeboard.com for costs for Fall 2007. If you read there you will see that Ivy League schools all are in the region of $35,000 for tuition and fees; $11,000 for room and board; and $1000+ for books and supplies. Perilously close to $50,000 per annum. Some schools also list their estimate of personal expenses and transportation costs on top. As far as I am aware these last two categories can not be claimed from 529 plans as 'qualified withdrawals'.
Ok, so I've reconciled myself to the fact this it will cost at least $200K (in 2007). However, the little pisher already has $300K there now (and he's got 12 years to go till college). I think what I will do is leave it as such for now but I will not max out the second little beast's plan (he's currently only got $120K there). If I have indeed overfunded the first I can always take money out of his and put it in his brother's. Since they never want to share any of their toys at this point, I hope I will be able to get away with it.
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You can find the exact information at the Admissions section of university websites. Most top schools these days waive tuition for students from middle class families. If this policy is still in place in 2020, it might be worth taking an unpaid sabbatical the year before Junior enrolls. My family did something similar to this, though not intentionally, and it worked out well.ilan1h wrote:I attended an ivy league university in 1985 and the tuition was about $20K then (so I actually believe that it could have gone up to 50K).
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I am bumping this old thread to see if the OP might still be around or how he or anyone else who thought they had overfunded or fully funded their 529s felt about it several years later.
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
And in 2013 the cost appears to be ~$60k per year private instead of the ~$50k per year when the thread was started.
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
Actually closer to $65K for many. Like our local (Pittsburgh area) big name, Carnegie-Mellon.Blue wrote:And in 2013 the cost appears to be ~$60k per year private instead of the ~$50k per year when the thread was started.
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
The college rat race is pure madness but I don't want to leave my child with a huge debt burden. I have a 12 year old who has excelled at school and who may indeed do well enough to get into highly competitive schools like Cornell. I don't have enough income to fund college out of every day cash flow, so since his birth I have aggressively funded a 529 plan. It is currently worth 300,000. I am not planning on putting in any more money. However, as college costs continue to rise, it seems that there is no end to the amount of money one can put in. The college calculator I use says that I have a small shortfall at a college cost inflation rate of 6% and an investment return of 5%. I think I am done though, as I don't want to seriously overfund. I am okay with excess funds being used for graduate school which is likely in his case. Is all of this worth it? Time will tell.
Last edited by msj16 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I think $300k at age 12 is pretty reasonable. You may fall a little short or be a lot over, but you'd be in a position to manage it regardless. Having two kids makes it harder - both could go to private schools, or both could go to community college. That's a million dollars difference, because my kids are only 4 and 6.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
Sounds like you are also setting up your grandchildrens college expenses. Nice gift from Grandpa.
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Re:
One in track costs at $64k a year.ilan1h wrote:with regards to school costs I visited several websites and collated the figures that were presented there for private schools. Not a single site came remotely close to $50,000. I attended an ivy league university in 1985 and the tuition was about $20K then (so I actually believe that it could have gone up to 50K). I also inquired about how they defined "living expenses"? Apparently, the schools present to the 529 plan what they consider to be normal "living expenses" and these can also be taken out of the 529. This obviously puts a damper on my idea of buying an expensive home for the kids and renting it to them while they go to school (rent coming out of the 529).
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
The college calculator from the college board says that college at 65000 per year (worst case scenario) in 8 years will cost (at 6% college inflation rate) a staggering 103,600 per year and 453,000 total. I know there is talk of this all being a bubble but so far the bubble has not popped. What I have so far will almost cover that at a 5% rate of return. I had to save like crazy and it helped that the funds earned over a 100,000 return on investment (go Utah savings plan!). If the investments had a 7% rate of return instead of 5%, there will be 70,000 extra at the end. I prefer to possibly overfund than to underfund. Thanks letsgobobby on your thumbs up with my plan.
Lastly, I am definitely not elitist about this. I would be happy if my son chose a good state school and used the additional funds for graduate school if that was the right decision to make. I also don't think one should go to a private college for that much money unless it truly is ranked very high for the field you will specialize in. I doubt there will be much left for grandchildren unless my son goes the state school route but that would be really nice as a generational gift. Also, it depends if he finishes in four or five years, since I recently realized that many do not finish in four years. Perhaps you can tell that I have been thinking of this a little too much but my son is lucky that I have done so.
Lastly, I am definitely not elitist about this. I would be happy if my son chose a good state school and used the additional funds for graduate school if that was the right decision to make. I also don't think one should go to a private college for that much money unless it truly is ranked very high for the field you will specialize in. I doubt there will be much left for grandchildren unless my son goes the state school route but that would be really nice as a generational gift. Also, it depends if he finishes in four or five years, since I recently realized that many do not finish in four years. Perhaps you can tell that I have been thinking of this a little too much but my son is lucky that I have done so.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I dream of the day I can start a post entitled "Have I put too much into the 529 plan?" Don't look for it any time soon…
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I put in about $60k each into my kids' 529s, and the rest into UTMA accounts with the intent of that money being used for college. At this point in their young lives, I feel it's way too early to know if they'll go Ivy League, state school, community college or into the trades and also whether they'll qualify for any scholarships. Therefore, I don't want to just assume they're both Harvard-bound. Furthermore, I don't believe college tuition can keep increasing 7%/year. If it did, only about 5 people in America would be able to afford it by the time my kids are 18. For those reasons, I feel more comfortable forgoing a little bit of a tax break in favor of some flexibility. I suggest stopping the contributions at this point. I think you're overfunded.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I think you have more than plenty in the 529 plan.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
Wowwww. It really seems like there has to be a ridiculous amount of diminishing returns as prices increase to that level.Blue wrote:And in 2013 the cost appears to be ~$60k per year private instead of the ~$50k per year when the thread was started.
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
zaboomafoozarg wrote:Wowwww. It really seems like there has to be a ridiculous amount of diminishing returns as prices increase to that level.Blue wrote:And in 2013 the cost appears to be ~$60k per year private instead of the ~$50k per year when the thread was started.
Maybe. Maybe not. For many, we are in an economy where a "name" school matters. I wasn't certain if sending my daughter to "NAME" or to Penn State...about $125,000 vs $250,000 for name...made sense. But 2 years after graduation, it appears that she'll earn more than enough to compensate for that $125,000 difference...probably in just the first 5-10 years of employment. She MIGHT have done as well at Penn State, but many state schools don't have the culture of academics that many "name" places have. Yeah, many do and it depends on the kid.
ALL college is overpriced but the DIFFERENCE between a good state and a "name" might still be worth it.
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I don't know that it's been covered above, but one thing to remember is that you can withdrawal the contributions without triggering tax consequences. Now, there is a proportion rule, but you can manage that at withdrawal time. Take the initial contributions and pocket it, and use the proportion that is earnings to pay education funds. Your only negative impact would then be any state tax deductions on the original contributions you may have been entitled to.
For example, let's say you contributed $250K to the account and it is worth $500K when your child starts to incur expenses. Assume that the annual cost of qualified educational expenses is $50K a year. You can withdraw $100K, and since it is proportional to 50% earnings and 50% contributions, you can pocket the $50K and use the other $50K to pay the educational expenses.
This is a very simplified view of it and there is some more math there regarding what was contributions vs. earnings, etc., but the point is that if you overfund the account, you can withdraw the contributions and use for other purposes.
For example, let's say you contributed $250K to the account and it is worth $500K when your child starts to incur expenses. Assume that the annual cost of qualified educational expenses is $50K a year. You can withdraw $100K, and since it is proportional to 50% earnings and 50% contributions, you can pocket the $50K and use the other $50K to pay the educational expenses.
This is a very simplified view of it and there is some more math there regarding what was contributions vs. earnings, etc., but the point is that if you overfund the account, you can withdraw the contributions and use for other purposes.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
Could you explain how you have the option to withdraw the contribution amount(s) and just let the interest compounded over time remain in the 529--and NOT incur a penalty?
I have done reading about the Utah 529 which we are opening for a grandson and couple of other 529s and saw nothing about that option.
I have done reading about the Utah 529 which we are opening for a grandson and couple of other 529s and saw nothing about that option.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
Since you love to read, review the IRS website for 529 plans and the rules around withdrawals. Principal withdrawals are not taxable, however earnings not used for qualified educational expenses are including a penalty besides normal income taxes. It's not on the website as an option, because it is an IRS regulation governing that choice. The choice is yours whether you wish to leave the principal in to compound or not. If the intent is to fund college, most folks will not have enough in interest amounts to pay for the cost of schooling, therefore most will leave all balances in the plan until payment for schooling is required.loves2read wrote:Could you explain how you have the option to withdraw the contribution amount(s) and just let the interest compounded over time remain in the 529--and NOT incur a penalty?
I have done reading about the Utah 529 which we are opening for a grandson and couple of other 529s and saw nothing about that option.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
The OP has not added to this thread since April 2008!
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
You cannot do that from a single 529, or more specifically from any number of 529s held at a single institution. The only way to do this is to have different accounts with different custodians, and to split up the contributions either over time or by asset class with different custodians. ie, you might have $50k in contributions in stocks in 2009 at Utah; then $30k in contributions in bonds in 2013 in New York; then $50k in contributions in stocks in 2018 in California. These assets would have different amounts of gains and then when time came to withdraw, you could be selective about how to withdraw the money to minimize taxes and penalties for any nonqualifying withdrawals.loves2read wrote:Could you explain how you have the option to withdraw the contribution amount(s) and just let the interest compounded over time remain in the 529--and NOT incur a penalty?
I have done reading about the Utah 529 which we are opening for a grandson and couple of other 529s and saw nothing about that option.
For qualifying withdrawals there are no taxes or penalties regardless so this would not be an issue.
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
One cannot really do that unless perhaps in the following circumstance:loves2read wrote:Could you explain how you have the option to withdraw the contribution amount(s) and just let the interest compounded over time remain in the 529--and NOT incur a penalty?
You have equities and fixed income in the 529 plan with a ratio of say 80:20 or whatever. The equities lose 50%, but the fixed income gains 5%. The overall 529 value has gone down, so it has a loss. You can take out ALL the 529 plan without a penalty or taxes or ANY amount of the 529 plan without a penalty or taxes. You can even leave behind in the 529 plan an amount equal to the 5% gains (interest) paid by the fixed income component.
In any event, withdrawals from the 529 plan are pro-rated to include contributions and gains (interest). Even transfers to another 529 plan do this pro-rated thing.
In other words, what Bacchus01 wrote is not possible.
Also note that one can even tax-loss harvest losses in a 529 plan under certain circumstances.
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
What I wrote included a proportion of contributions and gains. 50% of it was contributions and you can pocket it. 50% of it was gains and you can apply that to education and not pay taxes on it.livesoft wrote:One cannot really do that unless perhaps in the following circumstance:loves2read wrote:Could you explain how you have the option to withdraw the contribution amount(s) and just let the interest compounded over time remain in the 529--and NOT incur a penalty?
You have equities and fixed income in the 529 plan with a ratio of say 80:20 or whatever. The equities lose 50%, but the fixed income gains 5%. The overall 529 value has gone down, so it has a loss. You can take out ALL the 529 plan without a penalty or taxes or ANY amount of the 529 plan without a penalty or taxes. You can even leave behind in the 529 plan an amount equal to the 5% gains (interest) paid by the fixed income component.
In any event, withdrawals from the 529 plan are pro-rated to include contributions and gains (interest). Even transfers to another 529 plan do this pro-rated thing.
In other words, what Bacchus01 wrote is not possible.
Also note that one can even tax-loss harvest losses in a 529 plan under certain circumstances.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
i'm really confused here. Where we live we can only put in 3k a year thats tax deductable. How are people even getting to 300k invested in there kids 529s as opposed to using different methods to invest?
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I knew that but I guess i dont see an added benefit over other options. Thought maybe there was more to it. Thanks!
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
The dollar amounts being tossed around this post are eye rolling, and indeed are "first world problems". Sheesh.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
Some people here make a lot of money and are very rich. Some are not. The circumstances can differ greatly.
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Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
I think that's a good amount. Should cover undergrad and maybe even some grad school. Worst case they can either roll it to their kids some day or take it out and pay the small penalty tax (I think 10%).
Re: Have I put too much into the 529 plan?
letsgobobby wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:40 pmThe added benefit is federal tax free growth and tax free withdrawals. Like a Roth IRA. The upfront state tax deduction is peanuts in comparison.
Makes sense. I thought most people just did it for the tax deduction. Learn something new everyday. Thanks