Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosophy

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.

Principles of Boglehead Philosophy

Keep Investing Costs Low
230
28%
Use Index Funds
98
12%
Diversify Your Investments
112
14%
Manage Investment Risk Carefully
11
1%
Slice and Dice for Better Returns
2
0%
Simplify Investing
30
4%
Stay The Course
158
19%
Minimize Taxes on your Investments
11
1%
Market Timing
2
0%
Market Timing Only When the Signs are Overwhelming
1
0%
Set an Investment Plan and Stick To It
27
3%
Live Below Your Means
86
10%
Live Frugally
4
0%
Ignore The Noise
25
3%
Stay Out Of Debt
10
1%
Manage Debt Prudently
6
1%
Invest As Much Money As You Can
11
1%
Concentrate on Domestic Investments
0
No votes
International Investments are Important
1
0%
Other (please specify)
4
0%
 
Total votes: 829

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Index Fan
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Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosophy

Post by Index Fan » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:05 am

Just for fun...pick what you think are the top 3 Boglehead principles. You can re-vote if you change your mind.
Last edited by Index Fan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MathWizard
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by MathWizard » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:22 am

The only obvious one is costs matter.

My "other" is to pick an AA for which you can "stay the course".

There are many of these that derive from others.

Use (low cost) index funds grows out of
minimize costs , and
diversify investments.

Live below your means is implicit in having funds to invest.

Generally those on this board seem to agree with enhancing human capital, even if that means spending
years in school and perhaps racking up debt for a lucrative career. Perhaps maximizing human capital + investments
could be considered.

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nedsaid
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by nedsaid » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:24 am

I picked use index funds, keep costs low, and diversify your investments. So far, folks seem to agree.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by YDNAL » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:05 am

Index Fan wrote:Just for fun...pick what you think are the top 3 Boglehead principles. You can re-vote if you change your mind.
I thought there were only 10 Principles of the Bogleheads investment philosophy. Your poll shows many other choices and some very important choices are actually excluded. Gosh, I dislike these poll thingies.

Code: Select all

1 Develop a workable plan
2 Invest early and often
3 Never bear too much or too little risk
4 Diversify
5 Never try to time the market
6 Use index funds when possible
7 Keep costs low
8 Minimize taxes
9 Invest with simplicity
10 Stay the course
Landy | Be yourself, everyone else is already taken -- Oscar Wilde

longinvest
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by longinvest » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:12 am

YDNAL wrote: I thought there were only 10 Principles of the Bogleheads investment philosophy. Your poll shows many other choices and some very important choices are actually excluded. Gosh, I dislike these poll thingies.

Code: Select all

1 Develop a workable plan
2 Invest early and often
3 Never bear too much or too little risk
4 Diversify
5 Never try to time the market
6 Use index funds when possible
7 Keep costs low
8 Minimize taxes
9 Invest with simplicity
10 Stay the course
I didn't vote as I adhere to all of the 10 principles of the Bogleheads investment philosophy and I do not wish to select among them.
Bogleheads investment philosophy | Lifelong Portfolio: 25% each of (domestic/international)stocks/(nominal/inflation-indexed)bonds | VCN/VXC/VLB/ZRR

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:33 am

Keep Investing Costs Low, Diversify Your Investments, Stay the Course! Carry on!
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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pennstater2005
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by pennstater2005 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:52 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Keep Investing Costs Low, Diversify Your Investments, Stay the Course! Carry on!
:thumbsup
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by IowaFarmBoy » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:36 am

Keep investing costs low, diversify and stay the course. It was hard to pass by index funds but I figured low costs would drive me to index funds, anyway. Staying the course is so important- I've seen too many cases of "buy high, sell low".

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Dulocracy » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:42 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Keep Investing Costs Low, Diversify Your Investments, Stay the Course! Carry on!
I feel accomplished. Those are precisely the three for which I voted. If my answers are the same as Grt2bOutdoors, then I feel like I am on the right path.
I'm not a financial professional. Post is info only & not legal advice. No attorney-client relationship exists with reader. Scrutinize my ideas as if you spoke with a guy at a bar. I may be wrong.

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by FreeAtLast » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:44 am

I agree with YDNAL and longinvest.....you cannot fairly pare the BH philosophy down to just 3 principles.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by BabylonOrBust » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:07 pm

More than 3 and of roughly equal value ... index funds only, low cost, own the market, simplification, stay the course.

A lot of us deviate a little and do some kind of market-timing and slice and dice, but it's all through utilizing low-cost index funds. I'm unsure which way is ultimately best, but I'm sure for the vast majority of people a strict Boglehead plan is the way to go.

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by pennstater2005 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:24 pm

Other than market timing and slice and dicing I don't recall my FA mentioning too many of the others. Wonder why :?:
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by lack_ey » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:30 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Keep Investing Costs Low, Diversify Your Investments, Stay the Course! Carry on!
Voted the same.

Indexing is really a tool—and not necessarily the only one—for implementing the first two.

Really, I think keeping taxes low should be a poll response as well unless you lump that in with keeping costs low.

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by MoonOrb » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:00 pm

It was hard for me to choose 3 instead of 4. I view "Live Below Your Means" as essential, and I also chose "diversify" and "stay the course," but I wanted to choose "choose low cost investments," too.

If I had to prioritize them I would prioritize "choose low cost investments" less than those other three, so it was a very tough cut. Sorry, "low cost!"

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elgob.bogle
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by elgob.bogle » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:09 pm

I wonder what the results would have been if the listings were in some other order, e.g. alphabetically?? Seems to me that he ones at the top were favored heavily, and I suspect that some of that is due to their location on the selection list.

elgob

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VictoriaF
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:18 pm

I voted for:
1. Keep investing costs low
2. Stay the course
3. Other (please specify)

1. Keep investing costs low frequently means using index funds, but not necessarily. For example, I have investments in I bonds and CDs which are not index funds but are low-cost investments.

2. Staying the course in my definition implies a flexible course as defined in my IPS. Individual investments have and will be changed to suit the IPS.

3. Other is broad-based finds. There could be an index fund of Russian caviar or Polish kielbasa, and it could even be low-cost, but I would not invest in it other than gastronomically.

An item that I intentionally did not include is Live frugally. Some Boglehead discussions take frugality to an extreme level and tend to promote it as an integral Boglehead principle. I disagree. The essence of Jack's contribution to the humanity is low-cost index funds, not an art of stretching penies at the expense of all else.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Petrocelli » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:07 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Keep Investing Costs Low, Diversify Your Investments, Stay the Course! Carry on!
Those were my three votes too!
Petrocelli (not the real Rico, but just a fan)

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by YDNAL » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:36 pm

.
There are no 3, 4 (whatever) important investing principles. The Boglehead investing philosophy is comprehensive -- all 10 principles -- encompassing important investing decisions that enhance our ability (and probability) to meet financial goals.

I didn't really read all responses in detail, but I don't believe one person (for instance) has addressed taxes, or addressed even a MOST IMPORTANT principle to "invest early and often" (savings rate).

I'm done posting about this silly poll -- no offense, original poster.
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Wildebeest
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Wildebeest » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:50 pm

YDNAL wrote:.
There are no 3, 4 (whatever) important investing principles. The Boglehead investing philosophy is comprehensive -- all 10 principles -- encompassing important investing decisions that enhance our ability (and probability) to meet financial goals.

I didn't really read all responses in detail, but I don't believe one person (for instance) has addressed taxes, or addressed even a MOST IMPORTANT principle to "invest early and often" (savings rate).

I'm done posting about this silly poll -- no offense, original poster.
I agree with YDnal, that there are well thought out 10 principles of Boghehead philosophy and having a vote on 3 seems silly. The revived % Boglehead thread (thanks to Nisiprius ) was enjoyable to weigh in and I did learn something about myself.

I did not vote in this poll (I did read the responses in detail), but if you do not live below your means there is nothing left to invest and am I missing something to be in the minority in believing this?

Should there not be a 11 th tenet of the Boglehead philosophy stating to live "la dolce vita" and be merry using up your stash till death and 11 a. if you are genetically/physiologically challenged for happiness, do good with your money and send it to charity?
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by pennstater2005 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:56 pm

YDNAL wrote:.
There are no 3, 4 (whatever) important investing principles. The Boglehead investing philosophy is comprehensive -- all 10 principles -- encompassing important investing decisions that enhance our ability (and probability) to meet financial goals.

I didn't really read all responses in detail, but I don't believe one person (for instance) has addressed taxes, or addressed even a MOST IMPORTANT principle to "invest early and often" (savings rate).

I'm done posting about this silly poll -- no offense, original poster.
First three words of original posters post above........"just for fun".
“If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments.” – Earl Wilson

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:59 pm

Wildebeest wrote:
YDNAL wrote:.
There are no 3, 4 (whatever) important investing principles. The Boglehead investing philosophy is comprehensive -- all 10 principles -- encompassing important investing decisions that enhance our ability (and probability) to meet financial goals.

I didn't really read all responses in detail, but I don't believe one person (for instance) has addressed taxes, or addressed even a MOST IMPORTANT principle to "invest early and often" (savings rate).

I'm done posting about this silly poll -- no offense, original poster.
I agree with YDnal, that there are well thought out 10 principles of Boghehead philosophy and having a vote on 3 seems silly. The revived % Boglehead thread (thanks to Nisiprius ) was enjoyable to weigh in and I did learn something about myself.

I did not vote in this poll (I did read the responses in detail), but if you do not live below your means there is nothing left to invest and am I missing something to be in the minority in believing this?

Should there not be a 11 th tenet of the Boglehead philosophy stating to live "la dolce vita" and be merry using up your stash till death and 11 a. if you are genetically/physiologically challenged for happiness, do good with your money and send it to charity?
Ten, eleven, or whatever is the right number of the Bogleheads principles, provide a comprehensive view of one's personal financial management. Perhaps, things like adequate insurance and estate planning belong here, too.

However, the most effective number to focus on is THREE. If you have a list of 10 items on your daily to-do list, you may not complete any of them by the end of the day; if you have three items you will have all of them done. If you have 10 long-term goals, they will remain a fantasy; if you focus on achieving three things (or fewer), you are much more likely to get there.

And so the value of this poll is for the participants to present their three highest priorities in the Boglehead-style financial management and to see which three items are the most common.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by bengal22 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:23 pm

I chose:

Keep investment cost low(which leads you to index funds)
Diversify
Get an investment plan and stick to it


I think the comment "Live below your means" should be "live within your means". Bogleism does not advocate being over the top frugal.

I think the characteristic - work hard/smart to make the most you can and save a significant amount every pay check should be added.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Wildebeest » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:53 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Wildebeest wrote:
YDNAL wrote:.
There are no 3, 4 (whatever) important investing principles. The Boglehead investing philosophy is comprehensive -- all 10 principles -- encompassing important investing decisions that enhance our ability (and probability) to meet financial goals.

I didn't really read all responses in detail, but I don't believe one person (for instance) has addressed taxes, or addressed even a MOST IMPORTANT principle to "invest early and often" (savings rate).

I'm done posting about this silly poll -- no offense, original poster.
I agree with YDnal, that there are well thought out 10 principles of Boghehead philosophy and having a vote on 3 seems silly. The revived % Boglehead thread (thanks to Nisiprius ) was enjoyable to weigh in and I did learn something about myself.

I did not vote in this poll (I did read the responses in detail), but if you do not live below your means there is nothing left to invest and am I missing something to be in the minority in believing this?

Should there not be a 11 th tenet of the Boglehead philosophy stating to live "la dolce vita" and be merry using up your stash till death and 11 a. if you are genetically/physiologically challenged for happiness, do good with your money and send it to charity?
Ten, eleven, or whatever is the right number of the Bogleheads principles, provide a comprehensive view of one's personal financial management. Perhaps, things like adequate insurance and estate planning belong here, too.

However, the most effective number to focus on is THREE. If you have a list of 10 items on your daily to-do list, you may not complete any of them by the end of the day; if you have three items you will have all of them done. If you have 10 long-term goals, they will remain a fantasy; if you focus on achieving three things (or fewer), you are much more likely to get there.

And so the value of this poll is for the participants to present their three highest priorities in the Boglehead-style financial management and to see which three items are the most common.

Victoria
Thank you Victoria.

I stand corrected.

Also Penstater2005 made the excellent point that OP started out by saying "just for fun".

I will vote on one item: living below your means, even while living beyond your means may support our economy better.

PS I hate insurance and suggest that the 12 th tenet to freedom would have enough money to self insure.
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:06 pm

Wildebeest wrote:I will vote on one item: living below your means, even while living beyond your means may support our economy better.
Both are LBYM, so you are covered either way.

Seriously, I find the argument about "supporting the economy" harmful, because it provides a quasi-legitimate excuse for overspending. When the spending is reasonable, one does not think about the economy and just spends. It's when one is clearly doing something excessive or extravagant the "economy defense" comes in. It's similar to being inappropriately invested in order to save taxes. Eventually, it bites you more painfully than Luis Suarez.
Wildebeest wrote:PS I hate insurance and suggest that the 12 th tenet to freedom would have enough money to self insure.
Some things you must have insured, e.g., your car, your health, your home. Adequate finances can replace life insurance and long-term care insurance, which is reasonable.

Victoria
Last edited by VictoriaF on Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Wildebeest » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:49 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Wildebeest wrote:I will vote on one item: living below your means, even while living beyond your means may support our economy better.
Both are LBYM, so you are covered either way.

Seriously, I find the argument about "supporting the economy" harmful, because it provides a quasi-legitimate excuse for overspending. When the spending is reasonable, one does think about the economy and just spends. It's when one is clearly doing something excessive or extravagant the "economy defense" comes in. It's similar to overspending or being inappropriately invested in order to save taxes. Eventually, it bites you more painfully than Luis Suarez.
Wildebeest wrote:PS I hate insurance and suggest that the 12 th tenet to freedom would have enough money to self insure.
Some things you must have insured, e.g., your car, your health, your home. Adequate finances can replace life insurance and long-term care insurance, which is reasonable.

Victoria
May be I should have used an emoticons but I do hate them and almost as much as I hate to be in debt.

I do believe that we are lucky/fortunate that the rest of the world is willing to support the USA's ( over) spending habit at below market rates. I just wish that this money would be invested in a better infra structure (e.g. going to the metric system, Internet service everywhere, etc).
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:57 pm

Wildebeest wrote:May be I should have used an emoticons but I do hate them and almost as much as I hate to be in debt.
Emoticons are vulgar; when I have emotions, I spell (spill?) them out in parentheses.

Victoria
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by YDNAL » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:12 am

pennstater2005 wrote:First three words of original posters post above........"just for fun".
VictoriaF wrote:Ten, eleven, or whatever is the right number of the Bogleheads principles, provide a comprehensive view of one's personal financial management. Perhaps, things like adequate insurance and estate planning belong here, too.

However, the most effective number to focus on is THREE. If you have a list of 10 items on your daily to-do list, you may not complete any of them by the end of the day; if you have three items you will have all of them done. If you have 10 long-term goals, they will remain a fantasy; if you focus on achieving three things (or fewer), you are much more likely to get there.

And so the value of this poll is for the participants to present their three highest priorities in the Boglehead-style financial management and to see which three items are the most common.

Victoria
Nonsense.

The Boglehead philosophy isn't about "having fun" with it, or about "goals, fantasy."

The philosophy is an activity of thought meant to guide action all of the time. "The most effective number to focus on" is ALL.
Previously, YDNAL wrote:10 Principles of the Bogleheads investment philosophy.

Code: Select all

1 Develop a workable plan
2 Invest early and often
3 Never bear too much or too little risk
4 Diversify
5 Never try to time the market
6 Use index funds when possible
7 Keep costs low
8 Minimize taxes
9 Invest with simplicity
10 Stay the course
Landy | Be yourself, everyone else is already taken -- Oscar Wilde

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Cosmo » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:31 am

YDNAL wrote:
pennstater2005 wrote:First three words of original posters post above........"just for fun".
VictoriaF wrote:Ten, eleven, or whatever is the right number of the Bogleheads principles, provide a comprehensive view of one's personal financial management. Perhaps, things like adequate insurance and estate planning belong here, too.

However, the most effective number to focus on is THREE. If you have a list of 10 items on your daily to-do list, you may not complete any of them by the end of the day; if you have three items you will have all of them done. If you have 10 long-term goals, they will remain a fantasy; if you focus on achieving three things (or fewer), you are much more likely to get there.

And so the value of this poll is for the participants to present their three highest priorities in the Boglehead-style financial management and to see which three items are the most common.

Victoria
Nonsense.

The Boglehead philosophy isn't about "having fun" with it, or about "goals, fantasy."

The philosophy is an activity of thought meant to guide action all of the time. "The most effective number to focus on" is ALL.
Previously, YDNAL wrote:10 Principles of the Bogleheads investment philosophy.

Code: Select all

1 Develop a workable plan
2 Invest early and often
3 Never bear too much or too little risk
4 Diversify
5 Never try to time the market
6 Use index funds when possible
7 Keep costs low
8 Minimize taxes
9 Invest with simplicity
10 Stay the course
Wow, Landy, I have number 11 for you:

11: Lighten up a little.

Here are mine:
1. Keep Investing Costs Low
2. Diversify Your Investments
3. Stay the Course

Cosmo

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by nisiprius » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:38 am

The text of the Boglehead's Philosophy came from somewhere. I don't actually remember who hammered it out. (I didn't take part).

I like it, I think they did a great job, but it's just a forum consensus opinion... and it wasn't written by John C. Bogle, either.

:oops: It's a Wiki article, of course I can find out who wrote it. Dan Kohn did the first draft, many edits by (in alphabetical order) Barry Barnitz, CyberBob, Kevin M, louis c, LadyGeek, Linuxizer, and Stickman:

The first draft originally had only five points:
1 Save a lot
2 Asset Allocation (Holding Bonds) Is Essential
3 Buy Low Cost Index Funds Covering the Whole Stock Market
4 Tax Efficiency Matters
5 Stay the Course
The expansion to 10 points occurred in 25 March 2012 and was mostly the work of Barry Barnitz.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:09 am

YDNAL wrote:
pennstater2005 wrote:First three words of original posters post above........"just for fun".
VictoriaF wrote:Ten, eleven, or whatever is the right number of the Bogleheads principles, provide a comprehensive view of one's personal financial management. Perhaps, things like adequate insurance and estate planning belong here, too.

However, the most effective number to focus on is THREE. If you have a list of 10 items on your daily to-do list, you may not complete any of them by the end of the day; if you have three items you will have all of them done. If you have 10 long-term goals, they will remain a fantasy; if you focus on achieving three things (or fewer), you are much more likely to get there.

And so the value of this poll is for the participants to present their three highest priorities in the Boglehead-style financial management and to see which three items are the most common.

Victoria
Nonsense.

The Boglehead philosophy isn't about "having fun" with it, or about "goals, fantasy."

The philosophy is an activity of thought meant to guide action all of the time. "The most effective number to focus on" is ALL.
Previously, YDNAL wrote:10 Principles of the Bogleheads investment philosophy.

Code: Select all

1 Develop a workable plan
2 Invest early and often
3 Never bear too much or too little risk
4 Diversify
5 Never try to time the market
6 Use index funds when possible
7 Keep costs low
8 Minimize taxes
9 Invest with simplicity
10 Stay the course
You treat this thread as the "Bogleheads Doctrine." For me, it's a guide for prioritizing Bogleheads' principles. Nonsense is in the eyes of the beholder.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by pennstater2005 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:20 am

YDNAL wrote:
pennstater2005 wrote:First three words of original posters post above........"just for fun".
VictoriaF wrote:Ten, eleven, or whatever is the right number of the Bogleheads principles, provide a comprehensive view of one's personal financial management. Perhaps, things like adequate insurance and estate planning belong here, too.

However, the most effective number to focus on is THREE. If you have a list of 10 items on your daily to-do list, you may not complete any of them by the end of the day; if you have three items you will have all of them done. If you have 10 long-term goals, they will remain a fantasy; if you focus on achieving three things (or fewer), you are much more likely to get there.

And so the value of this poll is for the participants to present their three highest priorities in the Boglehead-style financial management and to see which three items are the most common.

Victoria
Nonsense.

The Boglehead philosophy isn't about "having fun" with it, or about "goals, fantasy."

The philosophy is an activity of thought meant to guide action all of the time. "The most effective number to focus on" is ALL.
Previously, YDNAL wrote:10 Principles of the Bogleheads investment philosophy.

Code: Select all

1 Develop a workable plan
2 Invest early and often
3 Never bear too much or too little risk
4 Diversify
5 Never try to time the market
6 Use index funds when possible
7 Keep costs low
8 Minimize taxes
9 Invest with simplicity
10 Stay the course
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Petrocelli » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:21 am

For the life of me, I have never understood how "living below your means" became so ingrained in an investing philosophy. Don't get me wrong, saving is extremely important. But once you save enough, isn't the goal to have fun with all that money you saved? You can't take it with you.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:29 am

Petrocelli wrote:For the life of me, I have never understood how "living below your means" became so ingrained in an investing philosophy. Don't get me wrong, saving is extremely important. But once you save enough, isn't the goal to have fun with all that money you saved? You can't take it with you.
it's a good point. During the accumulation phase, you have your "means," you have your "living," and if the "living" is smaller than the "means" you accumulate the difference.

But once the assets have been accumulated, one should live according to one's means, not below them.

Victoria
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by oragne lovre » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:36 am

Petrocelli wrote:For the life of me, I have never understood how "living below your means" became so ingrained in an investing philosophy. Don't get me wrong, saving is extremely important. But once you save enough, isn't the goal to have fun with all that money you saved? You can't take it with you.
"Living below your means" is more a habit than an investing philosophy. The problem is that an activity needs to be ingrained to become a habit. Once a habit, it will not be easy to let go :D
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Dasnyc » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:40 am

Live below your means - you have to begin by having money to invest; it's not always what you make, it's what you have left to invest. I've known many people who made a lot of money, but spent it all (and more) as quickly as they made it.

Stay the course - as Mr. Bogle points out, churning the accounts reduces your gains dramatically

Diversify investments - proper allocations reduce risk!

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:45 am

oragne lovre wrote:
Petrocelli wrote:For the life of me, I have never understood how "living below your means" became so ingrained in an investing philosophy. Don't get me wrong, saving is extremely important. But once you save enough, isn't the goal to have fun with all that money you saved? You can't take it with you.
"Living below your means" is more a habit than an investing philosophy. The problem is that an activity needs to be ingrained to become a habit. Once a habit, it will not be easy to let go :D
The habit is not as much "living below your means" as deciding how to spend the "means." That's where consumption smoothing is helpful. If you achieve a stable sustainable level of consumption -- as your income goes up and down -- there is no need to change the habits.

For the record, I have not been following consumption smoothing. When I was making more, I was spending less, because I had less time to spend. Now, I have more time and lower income, and I am learning new habits.

Victoria
Last edited by VictoriaF on Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Cosmo » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:46 am

Petrocelli wrote:For the life of me, I have never understood how "living below your means" became so ingrained in an investing philosophy. Don't get me wrong, saving is extremely important. But once you save enough, isn't the goal to have fun with all that money you saved? You can't take it with you.
You agree this is important during the accumulation stage? Otherwise, you will never get to the point of reaching your "number" or being able to retire, correct? I guess there is a happy medium.

Cosmo

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Sheepdog » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:49 am

Several of the choices are important, but a person's choices may be best for their stage in life, so they may be different.. As a retiree living off of his life's accumulation, my 3 are,
Keep investment costs low
Manage investment risk carefully
Stay the course
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Petrocelli » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:59 am

Cosmo wrote:
You agree this is important during the accumulation stage? Otherwise, you will never get to the point of reaching your "number" or being able to retire, correct? I guess there is a happy medium.
I agree that saving money is important. Theoretically, you can always save more.

Personally, I max out a 401(k) and a profit sharing plan. I invest some after tax money in the stock market. After that, I spend the rest. I could, theoretically, cut out cable, drive a Honda instead of a Mercedes, never buy art, give up my country club, get a flip phone, and never eat at fancy restaurants. I also could have returned the Rolex my wife bought me for Christmas, and the $750 Tumi briefcase she got me for my birthday.

I don't think an investing philosophy should involve spending. That's a separate thing entirely. If you are a good saver, and have a good income, you can spend like a drunken sailor and still follow every precept of Boglehead investing.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:06 am

Petrocelli wrote:If you are a good saver, and have a good income, you can spend like a drunken sailor and still follow every precept of Boglehead investing.
... for as long as a drunken sailor can keep the ship on course.

Victoria
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosophy

Post by bloom2708 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:10 am

1. Keep Investing Costs Low
2. Live Below Your Means
3. Stay Out Of Debt

2 and 3 allowed us to pile up investments. #1 allowed us to keep more of the investments working for us.

It is hard to only pick 3, but a good list.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Petrocelli » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:10 am

VictoriaF wrote:
Petrocelli wrote:If you are a good saver, and have a good income, you can spend like a drunken sailor and still follow every precept of Boglehead investing.
... for as long as a drunken sailor can keep the ship on course.

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosophy

Post by kellyfj » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:30 am

My 2 cents there are a lot of duplicates in here that mean the same thing or almost do

Keep Investing Costs Low == Use Index Funds

Diversify Your Investments == Manage Investment Risk Carefully == Slice and Dice for Better Returns

Market Timing == Market Timing Only When the Signs are Overwhelming

Stay the course == Set an Investment Plan and Stick To It == Ignore The Noise

Live Below Your Means == Live Frugally

Stay Out Of Debt == Manage Debt Prudently

Would love to see this poll done again with fewer options and less overlap between the options,

-Frank

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by oragne lovre » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:35 am

VictoriaF wrote:
oragne lovre wrote:
Petrocelli wrote:For the life of me, I have never understood how "living below your means" became so ingrained in an investing philosophy. Don't get me wrong, saving is extremely important. But once you save enough, isn't the goal to have fun with all that money you saved? You can't take it with you.
"Living below your means" is more a habit than an investing philosophy. The problem is that an activity needs to be ingrained to become a habit. Once a habit, it will not be easy to let go :D
The habit is not as much "living below your means" as deciding how to spend the "means." That's where consumption smoothing is helpful. If you achieve a stable sustainable level of consumption -- as your income goes up and down -- there is no need to change the habits.

For the record, I have not been following consumption smoothing. When I was making more, I was spending less, because I had less time to spend. Now, I have more time and lower income, and I am learning new habits.

Victoria
Just be careful with your NEW habits since they may become addictive :D
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by VictoriaF » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:44 am

oragne lovre wrote:Just be careful with your NEW habits since they may become addictive :D
I'm aiming at becoming Petrocelli's drunken sailor.

Victoria
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Cosmo » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:45 am

Petrocelli wrote:
Cosmo wrote:
You agree this is important during the accumulation stage? Otherwise, you will never get to the point of reaching your "number" or being able to retire, correct? I guess there is a happy medium.
I also could have returned the Rolex my wife bought me for Christmas, and the $750 Tumi briefcase she got me for my birthday.
Boy would that light up the famous "$5,000 watch" thread!

Cosmo

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by nisiprius » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:00 am

Petrocelli wrote:For the life of me, I have never understood how "living below your means" became so ingrained in an investing philosophy. Don't get me wrong, saving is extremely important. But once you save enough, isn't the goal to have fun with all that money you saved? You can't take it with you.
Right. Some of the academicians call it "consumption smoothing." You are trying to strike some kind of balance between present fun and future fun, and you have to make the decision despite the presence of unresolvable uncertainty. It seems to me that the goal is to try to spend as much of your life as possible somewhere in the purple "self-actualization" section of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

But, really, the more common error to make is overspending rather than oversaving, and while no doubt oversaving is possible, it takes a pretty extreme person to save at such a high rate that they drop down out of the green zone.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by hornet96 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:09 pm

Petrocelli wrote:I don't think an investing philosophy should involve spending. That's a separate thing entirely. If you are a good saver, and have a good income, you can spend like a drunken sailor and still follow every precept of Boglehead investing.
So in other words, you actually agree since the drunken sailor, by default, must be living below his means in order to be saving anything.

If you spend more than you earn, the rest of the conversation about Boglehead "investing" principles becomes moot. If you spend down your portfolio too aggressively in retirement, you are living above your means and again the investing principles become moot.

So yes, I voted for "living below your means" as a Boglehead principle. Without that, nearly every other principle breaks down.

**Edited to fix quoting errors due to ioS 8 on an old iPad.

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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Petrocelli » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:43 pm

hornet96 wrote:
Petrocelli wrote:I don't think an investing philosophy should involve spending. That's a separate thing entirely. If you are a good saver, and have a good income, you can spend like a drunken sailor and still follow every precept of Boglehead investing.
So in other words, you actually agree since the drunken sailor, by default, must be living below his means in order to be saving anything.

If you spend more than you earn, the rest of the conversation about Boglehead "investing" principles becomes moot. If you spend down your portfolio too aggressively in retirement, you are living above your means and again the investing principles become moot.

So yes, I voted for "living below your means" as a Boglehead principle. Without that, nearly every other principle breaks down.
So "living below your means" isn't equated with being frugal? I can wear a Rolex and still be a Boglehead? That's good news.
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Re: Poll: Principles of Boglehead Philosopy

Post by Johno » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:51 pm

Petrocelli wrote:
hornet96 wrote:
Petrocelli wrote:I don't think an investing philosophy should involve spending. That's a separate thing entirely. If you are a good saver, and have a good income, you can spend like a drunken sailor and still follow every precept of Boglehead investing.
So in other words, you actually agree since the drunken sailor, by default, must be living below his means in order to be saving anything.

If you spend more than you earn, the rest of the conversation about Boglehead "investing" principles becomes moot. If you spend down your portfolio too aggressively in retirement, you are living above your means and again the investing principles become moot.

So yes, I voted for "living below your means" as a Boglehead principle. Without that, nearly every other principle breaks down.
So "living below your means" isn't equated with being frugal? I can wear a Rolex and still be a Boglehead? That's good news.
Last statement might be tongue in cheek but I agree with it. However what you might be pointing out is something at least some self described BH's don't agree with. They think frugality is an end in itself, have a fairly absolute idea of what 'frugal' means, not just a synonym for spending less by a given % than your take home income, and want to think of their concept of 'righteous' frugality as part of the BH 'investment philosophy'.

I don't disagree with hornet necessarily but I don't think his point really contradicts yours. If the sailor isn't saving, 'investment principles' become moot. If he's saving enough (according to his own choice once conversant with the facts of realistic investment returns v likely spending needs for retirement, future education, bequest, etc), why does it matter what he's spending on or even how much?

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