How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

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zadie
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby zadie » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:46 am

Something else that seems off is that 4 of the M* style boxes in PW,are empty even though most of my holdings are in total stock mkt. What's up with that?

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby in_reality » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:26 am

zadie wrote:Something else that seems off is that 4 of the M* style boxes in PW,are empty even though most of my holdings are in total stock mkt. What's up with that?



Not using PW anymore, but I believe it just reports what the fund is classified as without analyzing it. So if a total market fund is classified as large blend, then it won't show anything in madcap value or growth for instance even though the fund contains those styles.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby AllenSmith » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:09 am

in_reality wrote:
zadie wrote:Something else that seems off is that 4 of the M* style boxes in PW,are empty even though most of my holdings are in total stock mkt. What's up with that?



Not using PW anymore, but I believe it just reports what the fund is classified as without analyzing it. So if a total market fund is classified as large blend, then it won't show anything in madcap value or growth for instance even though the fund contains those styles.


Is it possible to get someone from Vangard to respond to this? Seems like an important question.

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby friar1610 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:10 pm

I use PW much as Livesoft described it. I have a fairly simple portfolio (4 VG funds at the moment plus several outside investments - CDs, I-Bonds.) It does everything I need it to do. I probably waste more time than I should looking at the Portfolio Tester and seeing what other variations on my portfolio would do to the overall asset allocation and historical returns. (In fact, I have a post under Help With Personal Investments at the moment asking for opinions on a couple of alternatives that I have looked at several times on Portfolio Tester.)

For non-VG investments, I just manually input/update them once a quarter side they don't change that much.

Bottom line: I'm perfectly happy with PW but then again I'm not that sophisticated nor do I have a complex portfolio. My directions to my wife direct her to PW for managing investments if she is ever doing so on her own.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby zadie » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:08 am

I've asked my Flagship rep to address the empty M* style boxes within PW [even though I hold Total Stk Mkt]. I will post an update once I get that response from him.

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby SpringMan » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:05 am

I think it is agreed that Vanguard''s PW has its faults. Vanguard and Morningstar don't even agree on their definitions of cap size. Look at VG Capital Opportunity, VG says mid cap growth, M* says large cap growth. For rebalancing purposes, I trust PW for stock to bond percentages but even that differs from M*. Vanguard says we have 39.0% stock and M* says we have 40.3% stock. The tools give different overall ERs too but that is because VG does not use the temporary reductions of Fidelity Spartan funds. Don't ask why VG Precious Metals and Mining is 100% domestic in PW when it is predominately foreign.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby AllenSmith » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:18 am

SpringMan wrote:I think it is agreed that Vanguard''s PW has its faults. Vanguard and Morningstar don't even agree on their definitions of cap size. Look at VG Capital Opportunity, VG says mid cap growth, M* says large cap growth. For rebalancing purposes, I trust PW for stock to bond percentages but even that differs from M*. Vanguard says we have 39.0% stock and M* says we have 40.3% stock. The tools give different overall ERs too but that is because VG does not use the temporary reductions of Fidelity Spartan funds. Don't ask why VG Precious Metals and Mining is 100% domestic in PW when it is predominately foreign.


I just signed up for the M* free-trial. Is there any easy way to import all your Vanguard transactions? For example, I have say 500 shares of a Vanguard fund purchased over 25 purchases. Do I have to import each purchase date, with shares, and prices in order for M* to calculate my return and such? That seems extremely time consuming.

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:35 am

zadie wrote:I've asked my Flagship rep to address the empty M* style boxes within PW [even though I hold Total Stk Mkt]. I will post an update once I get that response from him.

I suspect Vanguard will say, "Oh, we'll look into that" and do nothing. Just like the last time and the time before that and the time before that ….

Also please ask why the prices used by PW for Vanguard ETFs entered in outside accounts are incorrect all weekends and only updated Monday mornings even though the prices for Vanguard ETFs are correct on the "Balances and Holdings" page.

Here is a thread all about it: viewtopic.php?t=137689
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby zadie » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:55 am

I also hold VBR, and the M* boxes in PW show the SCG box as empty, but when you look at style boxes on the M* website, it has 7 in SCG.

I bet that PW just takes the overall M* Fund Category (SCV in this case), and uses that, even though it's not at all accurate.

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby SpringMan » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:03 am

AllenSmith wrote:
SpringMan wrote:I think it is agreed that Vanguard''s PW has its faults. Vanguard and Morningstar don't even agree on their definitions of cap size. Look at VG Capital Opportunity, VG says mid cap growth, M* says large cap growth. For rebalancing purposes, I trust PW for stock to bond percentages but even that differs from M*. Vanguard says we have 39.0% stock and M* says we have 40.3% stock. The tools give different overall ERs too but that is because VG does not use the temporary reductions of Fidelity Spartan funds. Don't ask why VG Precious Metals and Mining is 100% domestic in PW when it is predominately foreign.


I just signed up for the M* free-trial. Is there any easy way to import all your Vanguard transactions? For example, I have say 500 shares of a Vanguard fund purchased over 25 purchases. Do I have to import each purchase date, with shares, and prices in order for M* to calculate my return and such? That seems extremely time consuming.

Not that I am aware of. I set up a M* portfolio based on total number of shares of each symbol. I still need to update after cap gains and dividends are reinvested. Not that difficult, I just bring up Vanguard's website and copy share number and paste into M*. I don't have a premium M* membership. I have it set up so my portfolio is attached to a suitcase next to my handle in discussion group posts. This provides a free x-ray but I am still missing most premium tools. Another option is to set up a T Rowe Price login which is free. TRP users have access to M* tools at TRP website.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby best2u » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:17 am

SpringMan wrote:I think it is agreed that Vanguard''s PW has its faults. Don't ask why VG Precious Metals and Mining is 100% domestic in PW when it is predominately foreign.



Interesting. I remember that portfolio tester could break vgpmx into foreign and domestic when I used to own it. Didn't pay attention to how it was treated in PW.

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby zadie » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:12 am

heard back from my flagship rep, regarding why in PW some M* style boxes are empty even though on the M* website they show it differently. I asked specifically why I show an empty box for SCG, even though I own Total Stock Mkt and VBR, both of which hold some SCG. He said that PW doesn't pull all the detailed fund data from M* into PW, only the main Category. So VBR is treated as 100% SCV since that's the way M* has categorized it...

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:28 am

Thanks for chatting with the Vanguard rep. The answer is consistent with what has been posted in this thread.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby AllenSmith » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:31 am

livesoft wrote:Thanks for chatting with the Vanguard rep. The answer is consistent with what has been posted in this thread.


agreed, +1

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby Dottie57 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:28 pm

Thanks goes to livesoft. I entered my non fidelity information into the fidelity product and now I know my allocations to a much more precise degree.

Thank you!

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:50 pm

You're welcome!
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:50 am

madsinger reported that he rebalanced on 2016-12-09: viewtopic.php?p=3143586#p3143586

Vanguard Portfolio Watch is telling me that I need to rebalance some more. Compare the screen capture below to the one in the first post of this thread:

Image

See the "consider Your current asset allocation varies from your long-term target."?

For future readers of this thread, the FOMC has a meeting this week where they are expected to raise the Fed Funds Rate. Bond funds have swooned in the weeks leading up to this meeting. For that and another reason, I am underweight in bonds. I intend to rebalance into bonds after the meeting announcement. I cannot predict what bond funds will do this week in response to waiting for the meeting and in response to the post-meeting announcement.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby abuss368 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:53 pm

I have found Vanguard's Portfolio watch interesting and helpful. Does it have everything I would like? No. However, it is good. For us, it does not have much impact either way. Our investment portfolio is a few index funds that are total market funds. The only area I am really getting flagged on is we presently do not have any international bonds!
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby dbr » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:53 am

abuss368 wrote:I have found Vanguard's Portfolio watch interesting and helpful. Does it have everything I would like? No. However, it is good. For us, it does not have much impact either way. Our investment portfolio is a few index funds that are total market funds. The only area I am really getting flagged on is we presently do not have any international bonds!


I would suggest that a portfolio analysis and presentation tool should not also be making investment recommendations just because Vanguard has arrived at a certain point of view about what assets they think people "should" own. Obviously they can be ignored but it adds to the pressure on people to react to the wrong source of advice.

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby Lieutenant.Columbo » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:08 am

I just read through the Topic

is there a consensus on whether it is more accurate to use Morningstar's grid or Vanguard's Portfolio Watch for rebalancing purposes? particularly when one wants to stay within a certain tilt range

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:28 am

I would not use Vanguard Portfolio Watch tool to determine tilt between Value and Growth nor to determine tilt between Large and Small. For one thing, Vang Port Watch specifically excludes any analysis of foreign equity funds. For another thing, it gives each fund a single classification (total stock market is Large Blend). Thus VPW is useless for tilt determination. You can see that yourself readily.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby blevine » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:35 am

@livesoft Why 58% target for stocks ?
You must be doing precise age-in-bonds ;-)

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:42 pm

blevine wrote:@livesoft Why 58% target for stocks ?
You must be doing precise age-in-bonds ;-)

This is a natural consequence of wanting a 50:50 split of US:foreign and wanting the US allocation to be a prime number. If equities are to be around 60%, there are limited choices such that 60%/2 is close to a prime number. Indeed, the choices are 29% US or 31% US. 62% equities is too much for me, so that leaves only one choice. But it does make a nice band of 58% to 62% for equities, doesn't it?

It also ignores that need, ability, willingness thing.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby kmurp » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:17 pm

Does the vanguard tool accurately track individual bonds? I hold some of these at Fidelity and Fidelity has a Morningstar like graphic that shows average duration and credit quality of the whole bond portfolio.

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:18 pm

kmurp wrote:Does the vanguard tool accurately track individual bonds? I hold some of these at Fidelity and Fidelity has a Morningstar like graphic that shows average duration and credit quality of the whole bond portfolio.

No. While I am aware of the graphic you mentioned, I never found it useful to make any decisions, so I don't waste my time looking at it.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby kmurp » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:27 pm

livesoft wrote:
kmurp wrote:Does the vanguard tool accurately track individual bonds? I hold some of these at Fidelity and Fidelity has a Morningstar like graphic that shows average duration and credit quality of the whole bond portfolio.

No.

Man you are fast! And thank you.

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby Lieutenant.Columbo » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:33 pm

kmurp wrote:
livesoft wrote:
kmurp wrote:Does the vanguard tool accurately track individual bonds? I hold some of these at Fidelity and Fidelity has a Morningstar like graphic that shows average duration and credit quality of the whole bond portfolio.

No.

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Re: How to use TDAmeritrade / M* X-ray for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:46 pm

I also wanted to show some screen captures of how TDAmeritrade has access to Morningstar Portfolio X-ray with the ability to enter, import, and save portfolios. I am starting to use it instead of the Fidelity GPS tool.

For TDAmeritrade account holders, click on the two controls shown in the next pic:

Image

When one does that the following screen is displayed:

Image


From there one can learn how to either enter by share amount, dollar amount, or import a comma-separate-value (CSV) text file of one's holdings. Then one can Save the portfolio. I use a date such as 20170210 for the Save name. I export a CSV text file from MS Money, edit it, then import into the TDAmeritrade site.

I like the output and ability to compare to a "World Allocation" which the other tools do not let me do. I will show a little bit of that in a follow-on post.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby Munir » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:55 pm

Off topic: I have four Vanguard bond funds in varying amounts. How can I calculate the average duration of the whole bond portfolio?

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:00 pm

Munir wrote:Off topic: I have four Vanguard bond funds in varying amounts. How can I calculate the average duration of the whole bond portfolio?

Since I am working on the TDAmeritrade version of the Morningstar X-ray, I show below a bit of the Bond analysis output which shows that:

Image

I cannot confirm if it is accurate, but one could test that for themselves.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:36 pm

Below is part of the M* output. I have not shown the pie chart nor the bar graph. In the tool, I selected "World Allocation" instead of the defauld S&P500 for the benchmark comparison because my portfolio is rather close to a 60/40 World Allocation benchmark. Also note that I have used GCC as a proxy for my TIAA Real Estate holding since ticker QREARX is not analyzed like I want it to be. GCC is a combination of "Other" and "Cash", so the pic below shows less "Other" and more "Cash" than Vanguard Portfolio Watch and Fidelity GPS.

Image

So folks can see that I have about 60% equities split between US and foreign. Here is the 9-box style grid:

Image

The bond box is shown in the previous post.

Also don't forget that M* uses the symbols CASH$ for cash and money markets. And the symbol BOND$ for bonds without a ticker symbol. I assume the analysis of effective duration and maturity ignores investments entered as CASH$ and BOND$. One can have multiple instances of these symbols, too.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:58 pm

Here is another output panel comparing geographic equity location between my portfolio and the "World Allocation" benchmark:

Image
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby triceratop » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:48 pm

Great thread.

For those following along wondering about other brokerages, you can do nearly all of the VPW stuff in Merrill Edge as well, using their Portfolio Analysis tool. Since it's just using M*, the information is identical.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby SobeCane » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:29 pm

bengal22 wrote:I use the Vanguard Portfolio as well. It is a good tool. However, it refuses to treat the Fidelity Total U.S. stock index properly(counts it as 100% large cap) so I have to go to Portfolio analysis and subsitute the Vanguard Total US Stock Index to get an accurate account for small and mid cap stocks. I have written them but they said that they use the Morningstar 9 box but that is inaccurate. So it takes me a little longer but it is a good tool. The Fidelity web site has a similar tool.



2 years later and it still treats Fidelity Total US Stock as 100% Large Cap. Same with Schwab Total US Stock.

Does anyone know of similar funds that I can use instead that Vanguard correctly classifies in Portfolio Watch?

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby bengal22 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:53 pm

SobeCane wrote:
bengal22 wrote:I use the Vanguard Portfolio as well. It is a good tool. However, it refuses to treat the Fidelity Total U.S. stock index properly(counts it as 100% large cap) so I have to go to Portfolio analysis and subsitute the Vanguard Total US Stock Index to get an accurate account for small and mid cap stocks. I have written them but they said that they use the Morningstar 9 box but that is inaccurate. So it takes me a little longer but it is a good tool. The Fidelity web site has a similar tool.



2 years later and it still treats Fidelity Total US Stock as 100% Large Cap. Same with Schwab Total US Stock.

Does anyone know of similar funds that I can use instead that Vanguard correctly classifies in Portfolio Watch?

Vanguard total stock market

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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby Doc » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:58 am

triceratop wrote:Great thread.

For those following along wondering about other brokerages, you can do nearly all of the VPW stuff in Merrill Edge as well, using their Portfolio Analysis tool. Since it's just using M*, the information is identical.

Use Morningstar detailed data whatever way you can get it. Just using style box to define a funds portfolio can be misleading. Just compare an S&P 500 with a TSM fund or the small cap value funds from Vanguard and​ iShares as examples.

A fund will give M* detailed data because they get some benefits. A competitive fund company not so much.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Mon May 22, 2017 7:40 am

I think Vanguard has added a new link in their Portfolio Watch tool to explain the analysis, so I changed the first pic in this thread. Now there is a
Learn more about this analysis
link which has a lot of info that users of the Portfolio Watch should read and try to understand.

In particular, the "fine print" states that prices used are usually stale as has been noted many times:
Image
Also there is more about the different analysis of Vanguard funds versus non-Vanguard funds as well as multi-asset funds. Note the use of "of the previous business day" and "may be from today's close". This shows that prices for anything and everything may not be from today's close.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby Lieutenant.Columbo » Mon May 22, 2017 7:49 am

thank you, livesoft
livesoft wrote:the "fine print" states that prices used are usually stale as has been noted many times:
Image
Also there is more about the different analysis of Vanguard funds versus non-Vanguard funds as well as multi-asset funds. Note the use of "of the previous business day" and "may be from today's close". This shows that prices for anything and everything may not be from today's close.
does this mean one is better off doing the rebalancing Math with the holdings' balances as per the account values (which are current) instead of using Portfolio Watch?
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Mon May 22, 2017 7:54 am

Lieutenant.Columbo wrote:thank you, livesoft
livesoft wrote:the "fine print" states that prices used are usually stale as has been noted many times:
Image
Also there is more about the different analysis of Vanguard funds versus non-Vanguard funds as well as multi-asset funds. Note the use of "of the previous business day" and "may be from today's close". This shows that prices for anything and everything may not be from today's close.
does this mean one is better off doing the rebalancing Math with the holdings' balances as per the account values (which are current) instead of using Portfolio Watch?

No, it means that Vanguard Portfolio Watch only has correct prices between about 3 hours before the market opens and just before the market opens. Do your math at that time. Or do like me and don't use math. The reality is that one does not have to use math to rebalance because one can get close enough with just guessing. Besides, the numbers will be different again the next day.

Also it means that you cannot do math on a RBD, so you have to wing it on such days if you are doing intraday trading.
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby Lieutenant.Columbo » Mon May 22, 2017 8:27 am

livesoft wrote:...one does not have to use math to rebalance because one can get close enough with just guessing. Besides, the numbers will be different again the next day...
this is philosophically interesting; the actual/exact allocation targets are unattainable, other than only ephemerally

this makes me want to invest each month's savings into the holding that's the most underweight at that time (aka, buying low) (and even if doing so results in a higher allocation to such fund than the Target AA calls for), rather than splitting the inflow in mathematical agreement with the Target AA...
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Re: How to use Vanguard Portfolio Watch for rebalancing

Postby livesoft » Mon May 22, 2017 8:33 am

Guess what? You got a fever and the only prescription is more RBD.
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