Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX??
Fidelity Spartan Glb ex USIdxAdvtg
FSGDX 1.43%
http://quotes.morningstar.com/fund/FSGDX/f?t=FSGDX
Vanguard Total Intl Stock Index Admiral
VTIAX 3.36%
http://quotes.morningstar.com/fund/VTIAX/f?t=VTIAX
The two funds are basically the same (Global ex USA), except VTIAX is all-caps and FSGDX is large-caps, but I don't see how that would explain the difference in yield.
[Editted to add fund names.]
Fidelity Spartan Glb ex USIdxAdvtg
FSGDX 1.43%
http://quotes.morningstar.com/fund/FSGDX/f?t=FSGDX
Vanguard Total Intl Stock Index Admiral
VTIAX 3.36%
http://quotes.morningstar.com/fund/VTIAX/f?t=VTIAX
The two funds are basically the same (Global ex USA), except VTIAX is all-caps and FSGDX is large-caps, but I don't see how that would explain the difference in yield.
[Editted to add fund names.]
Last edited by 555 on Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
I own both of these funds. I would like you to do two things to investigate this issue please.
1. Plot "Growth of" at Morningstar for the 2 funds simuitaneously. Is there a ~2% difference? It would be very obvious.
2. List the ACTUAL distributions of these two funds in this thread for the past 2 years. Be aware that capital gains is not the same as dividends even though both are considered distributions.
1. Plot "Growth of" at Morningstar for the 2 funds simuitaneously. Is there a ~2% difference? It would be very obvious.
2. List the ACTUAL distributions of these two funds in this thread for the past 2 years. Be aware that capital gains is not the same as dividends even though both are considered distributions.
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Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Yield on stock funds is pretty meaningless and especially so in this case as the Vanguard fund distributes quarterly and the Fidelity yearly.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Okay, I did that. From 09/08/2011 (perhaps when FSGDX started(?)) to 11/01/2014 $10k grows to:livesoft wrote:1. Plot "Growth of" at Morningstar for the 2 funds simultaneously. Is there a ~2% difference? It would be very obvious.
FSGDX $12,753.18
VTIAX $12,991.40
which actually is a non-trivial difference, so I do wonder why that is. It is a ~2% difference over about 3 years. Is that what you meant? Or were you expecting the absence of a ~2% difference per year despite yield difference?
https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutua ... /316146141livesoft wrote:2. List the ACTUAL distributions of these two funds in this thread for the past 2 years. Be aware that capital gains is not the same as dividends even though both are considered distributions.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... =INT#tab=4
That confirms the percentages (and I see FSGDX has a CGD). This is a tax-sheltered account where I can get FSGDX?
I'm still quite puzzled about the difference in yield, and now I'm puzzled about other things too.
Can anyone figure this out?
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
I believe FSGDX has no small caps, and I think international small caps have outperformed large caps over your charted period.
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Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
If you are worried about small caps, compare with VFWAX. Not the exact same index as FSGDX, but closer to it than VTIAX. The start date on this fund is 9/27/2011, so we'll begin from there.
Morningstar gives me these numbers for 9/27/2011 to 11/01/2014:
FSGDX $13983.75
VTIAX $14171.35
VFWAX $14194.05
Gaps of 1.34% and 1.50% (not annualized) over 3+ years.
Before getting too overworked about these gaps, I would compare the returns of the respective benchmarks, and the tracking errors of each fund over this period. On top of that, there could be more differences arising from fair value pricing issues. ERs are about the same.
This wiki page illustrates just how much variability there is among benchmarks that are all supposedly tracking the same asset class: global ex-US stocks:
http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Global_e ... ex_returns
But more interesting to me is the puzzle presented by the gap in dividends. Even if you add in the cap gain distributions, there is still a gap.
Income returns in 2012 and 2013 for VFWAX were 3.52% and 3.28%, VTIAX is similar. Eyeballing the Fidelity fund, looks like about 1.5% and 1.75%, gaps of 2% and 1.5% each year. I can't explain that.
Morningstar gives me these numbers for 9/27/2011 to 11/01/2014:
FSGDX $13983.75
VTIAX $14171.35
VFWAX $14194.05
Gaps of 1.34% and 1.50% (not annualized) over 3+ years.
Before getting too overworked about these gaps, I would compare the returns of the respective benchmarks, and the tracking errors of each fund over this period. On top of that, there could be more differences arising from fair value pricing issues. ERs are about the same.
This wiki page illustrates just how much variability there is among benchmarks that are all supposedly tracking the same asset class: global ex-US stocks:
http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Global_e ... ex_returns
But more interesting to me is the puzzle presented by the gap in dividends. Even if you add in the cap gain distributions, there is still a gap.
Income returns in 2012 and 2013 for VFWAX were 3.52% and 3.28%, VTIAX is similar. Eyeballing the Fidelity fund, looks like about 1.5% and 1.75%, gaps of 2% and 1.5% each year. I can't explain that.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
It's true that FSGDX has no small caps. But when I add Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Small-Cap Index Fund Investor Shares (VFSVX) to this comparison:jpsfranks wrote:I believe FSGDX has no small caps, and I think international small caps have outperformed large caps over your charted period.
555 wrote:Okay, I did that. From 09/08/2011 (perhaps when FSGDX started(?)) to 11/01/2014 $10k grows to:livesoft wrote:1. Plot "Growth of" at Morningstar for the 2 funds simultaneously. Is there a ~2% difference? It would be very obvious.
FSGDX $12,753.18
VTIAX $12,991.40
which actually is a non-trivial difference, so I do wonder why that is. It is a ~2% difference over about 3 years. Is that what you meant? Or were you expecting the absence of a ~2% difference per year despite yield difference?
I get
FSGDX $12,753.18
VTIAX $12,991.40
VFSVX $12,411.92
So that doesn't explain it. The difference is the wrong way. It's a puzzle.
I newly have access to Fidelity mutual funds (instead of TIAA-CREF) in my 403b, and was thinking of using this fund FSGDX, but I need to figure if it has a defect, or if there is a meaningless glitch in the numbers.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
I just saw this, and thanks for the further analyses. I'm definitely not "worried" about small caps, and I would much prefer "total" funds. I just want to cobble together a 3-fund portfolio the best I can from the available funds in various location. I have just gained access to Fidelity spartan funds (but not Vanguard) in my 403b space, so I want to check out these funds. FSGDX is the closest thing they have to a TISM fund.House Blend wrote:If you are worried about small caps...
This wiki page illustrates just how much variability there is among benchmarks that are all supposedly tracking the same asset class: global ex-US stocks:
http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Global_e ... ex_returns
Thanks for the wiki link about the various international stock indexes. So it could be FSGDX are just a bit different VTIAX (in more ways than just small caps), and won't track tha closely.
I just want to make sure that FSGDX is not a dud, and should perform similarly to VTIAX (V TISM) in the long term.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Anyone have any ideas about this. There are unanswered questions about these funds.
I'm fine with your Socratic methods, but do you actually know the answer?livesoft wrote:I own both of these funds. I would like you to do two things to investigate this issue please.
1. Plot "Growth of" at Morningstar for the 2 funds simuitaneously. Is there a ~2% difference? It would be very obvious.
2. List the ACTUAL distributions of these two funds in this thread for the past 2 years. Be aware that capital gains is not the same as dividends even though both are considered distributions.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
No, I don't know the answer and your investigation of the questions didn't turn up anything. (I did not check your answers either, but took them at face value.) I thought House Blend's report was interesting.
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Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
I am bumping to see if anyone knows the answer to this. I'm curious as well.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
I found these
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... IntExt=INT
https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... IntExt=EXT
So the indexes are different and may differ from each other by a few tens of basis points per year. Sometimes one index wins, sometimes the other.
The funds may also each differ from their respective index by a few tens of basis points per year. This is more than what could be explained by the expense ratios alone, and sometimes the fund beats the index.
So the funds should be similar but won't track super closely.
The difference in yield is still a mystery though.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... IntExt=INT
https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... IntExt=EXT
So the indexes are different and may differ from each other by a few tens of basis points per year. Sometimes one index wins, sometimes the other.
The funds may also each differ from their respective index by a few tens of basis points per year. This is more than what could be explained by the expense ratios alone, and sometimes the fund beats the index.
So the funds should be similar but won't track super closely.
The difference in yield is still a mystery though.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Wow, I hadn't realized the difference! According to Morningstar, FSGDX has a yield of 1.53% vs. VTIAX which has a yield of 3.37%. I'm curious if anyone ever solved the answer to this question? Why such a difference in yield?
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
The 12/12/2014 distribution from FSGDX was about 2.5% all by itself. This was the only distribution so far for 2014.
The 2014 distributions of VTIAX amount to about 3.1%. If one looks at only the last 6 months, it is about 1.34% or 2.7% annuallized.
They are really close enough given that FSGDX appears not to have any of the small caps that VTIAX has.
This just says to be wary of Morningstar's extrapolation.
The 2014 distributions of VTIAX amount to about 3.1%. If one looks at only the last 6 months, it is about 1.34% or 2.7% annuallized.
They are really close enough given that FSGDX appears not to have any of the small caps that VTIAX has.
This just says to be wary of Morningstar's extrapolation.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
The gap may have narrowed, but the anomaly is still larger than could be explained by relatively minor differences in index.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
My theory is that FSGDX is a relatively new fund created 9/8/2011 that it has had a very large ramp up in assets over to $748 million from probably $25 million in seed money to start the fund. As more new money has come in, more shares had to be created, and all these new assets over the course of the year have diluted the dividend yield.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
That theory is definitely consistent with the data. Good one.mathwhiz wrote:My theory is that FSGDX is a relatively new fund created 9/8/2011 that it has had a very large ramp up in assets over to $748 million from probably $25 million in seed money to start the fund. As more new money has come in, more shares had to be created, and all these new assets over the course of the year have diluted the dividend yield.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
FSGDX will probably end up being more tax efficient than VEA/VTMGX and VXUS / VTIAX by a wide margin for the same return in 2014. Although I suppose the fund that lost the most money could be called the most tax efficient.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Fidelity All World Ex-U.S. index fund (FSGDX) pays dividends annualy in December.
Vanguard Total International Index (VTIAX) pays dividends quarterly.
Yes, the two funds track different indexes. But the fact that dividends are reinvested more frequently in the Vanguard fund gives the Vanguard fund an advantage.
Vanguard Total International Index (VTIAX) pays dividends quarterly.
Yes, the two funds track different indexes. But the fact that dividends are reinvested more frequently in the Vanguard fund gives the Vanguard fund an advantage.
"Learn from the past, live in the present, plan for the future"
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Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
No. In a mutual fund, dividends are reinvested continuously.mesaverde wrote:But the fact that dividends are reinvested more frequently in the Vanguard fund gives the Vanguard fund an advantage.
Dividend (and cap gain) distributions are simply bookkeeping formalisms that have no net effect on fund returns. Of course they do create immediate tax costs for the individual (taxable) investor, and if all else is equal, smaller total distributions would be better. But distribution frequency is mostly irrelevant for tax purposes. There can be minor effects related to the relative costs of buying a dividend, or avoiding one.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
I think FSGDX has a lower yield and lower performance because Fidelity pays itself higher brokerage fees or higher prices for buys and lower prices for sales when it trades for this fund. These fees may not end up reflected in the fund expense ratio.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Are you saying they're skimming off this fund? That should show up in the performance (eventually).livesoft wrote:I think FSGDX has a lower yield and lower performance because Fidelity pays itself higher brokerage fees or higher prices for buys and lower prices for sales when it trades for this fund. These fees may not end up reflected in the fund expense ratio.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
Check the performance yourself. What do you see?
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
I see it trails its index by about 30bp per year.
Re: Why does FSGDX have such a low yield compared to VTIAX?
I'm also interested in getting to the bottom of this. FSGDX is the only int'l index offered in my 401k and I'm worried that it's inferior to the similar Vanguard offerings. Doing a side by side comparison of the annual reports for FSGDX and VTIAX from last year, it appears that Fidelity withholds foreign taxes while Vanguard does not. Also, Vanguard makes 5x the percentage of AUM in security lending compared to Fidelity (.02% vs .1%). However, these discrepancies don't account for the entire difference in Net Investment Income. Fidelity's NII is 2.07% of AUM, Vanguard's is 2.70%.