"Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

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Kevin M
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by Kevin M »

I emailed my Vanguard rep asking when the upgrade would be available to me. No date given. Just said that they are in the early phases of a slow, controlled rollout, and that I would be contacted when the opportunity is available to me.

I'm looking forward to it in general, but specifically because I did some arbitrage on the deep discounts offered awhile back on the California muni ETFs CMF and CXA by selling some of my VG CA int-term and long-term muni funds and buying the ETFs (so far it has paid off handsomely). When the accounts are integrated I won't have to worry about having the cash to buy the mutual funds or being out of the funds for three days when I reverse the trade.

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robertalpert
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by robertalpert »

indexfundfan wrote:I was just given the option to upgrade my Roth VBS account. Here's some benefits listed:

* Get a single tax statement for your tax filing convenience.
Tax forms for the mutual fund account have usually been available in February. The VBS tax forms lag by a month or so (March). If the combined single tax form becomes available on the February schedule, that would be wonderful.
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SpringMan
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by SpringMan »

If they combine Vanguard and VBS on the website, I doubt it will make VBS tax information available any earlier than it has been. It would be nice if they did. On the other hand, nobody likes to get amended 1099s after they have submitted their taxes to the IRS. Better to receive accurate information than erroneous information early. If they do combine tax information forms, I could see they combined forms coming out later than February.
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SpringMan
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by SpringMan »

Kevin M wrote:I emailed my Vanguard rep asking when the upgrade would be available to me. No date given. Just said that they are in the early phases of a slow, controlled rollout, and that I would be contacted when the opportunity is available to me.

When the accounts are integrated I won't have to worry about having the cash to buy the mutual funds or being out of the funds for three days when I reverse the trade.

Kevin
Thanks for the update, I am looking forward to the roll out too. I hope VBS fixes their updating of non-Vanguard mutual funds. Currently they are not updated until the overnight computer run. There is no way to refresh their values even though the closing NAV is already known elsewhere on the web. On the topic of waiting three days to buy a Vanguard mutual fund, it will be nice not to have to wait and be out of the market. I am sure you are aware you can buy another ETF immediately. Of course, that does not help if you want an actively managed Vanguard fund.
Best Wishes, SpringMan
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frugaltype
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by frugaltype »

sperry8 wrote:Im a Flagship customer and have eligible accounts and didn't see the offer to upgrade. Surprised they didn't start with Flagship.
Who would you rather upset if you were a company rolling out a new feature with possible bugs - customers with a zillion dollars or other customers?
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by lazyday »

CABob wrote:[snip]Is there anything about this upgrade that makes it more advantageous to have a VBS account?
Compared to VG funds without a VBS account:

Upside
- There's the obvious: possibility to buy instruments through VBS, such as Treasury bonds and ETFs. If unexpectedly wish to own in the future, no delay if already have VBS account.

Might be downsides
- More steps between you and your traditional mutual fund shares might mean more risk, more places for something to go wrong, such as in a data breach or extreme financial catastrophe. I haven't read fine print on how "in house" VBS is, or internal/external layers between you and your fund.
- Some have said that SIPC is very aggressive interpreting its rules. Might become more difficult to stay under $500K limit.

Glad to see this change. Never liked brokers that required settled funds within account, causes avoidable market risk. If only VBS would offer nearly free trades for ~500K accounts only partly in VG funds.
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by Epsilon Delta »

robertalpert wrote:
indexfundfan wrote:I was just given the option to upgrade my Roth VBS account. Here's some benefits listed:

* Get a single tax statement for your tax filing convenience.
Tax forms for the mutual fund account have usually been available in February. The VBS tax forms lag by a month or so (March). If the combined single tax form becomes available on the February schedule, that would be wonderful.
I agree with Springman that this is unlikely. VBS is not entirely in control of the timing. VBS cannot issue tax forms until they receive information about the securities in the account from third parties (other mutual fund companies, ETF sponsors or the security issuer). In the case of Vanguard mutual funds they usually have all of the information in house and can get right to work.

IIRC there are a few Vanguard funds (REIT funds come to mind) that also routinely delay the 1099, because Vanguard has to wait for information from the sponsors of all the constituent securities.
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JamesSFO
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by JamesSFO »

Just a ping for folks that have performed the conversion to see how it's going a month or so in?
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by thepommel »

Just wanted to check-in to see if more people have completed this conversion and what the experience has been like? Thanks!

Kind Regards,
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Doc
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by Doc »

OMG

Called Vanguard today.

We can't upgrade because we have a zero balance (since 2009) Vanguard MM fund in one of our accounts which is closed to new investors. They can't move it to the new platform until it reopens and they can't make the fund go away either. And they have to move all our accounts or none. But they're working on it. :(

So our upgrade is hung up by QE1 2 & 3. Who would have thought.
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Kevin M
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by Kevin M »

Did they say that any account with a zero balance would prevent the migration, or is it specific to the MM fund? I have quite a few such accounts. Also, I have agent authority on several other accounts, which I was told will delay migration for me due to the additional complexity.

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Doc
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by Doc »

Kevin M wrote:Did they say that any account with a zero balance would prevent the migration, or is it specific to the MM fund? I have quite a few such accounts. Also, I have agent authority on several other accounts, which I was told will delay migration for me due to the additional complexity.

Kevin
The implication was that it was because the funds were closed to new investors. The two accounts in question were MM accounts. At one point these accounts were the clearing accounts but have not been for some five years. One had a zero balance the other did not.

Nothing was said about the agent authority. The CSR was obviously aware that I was acting as agent on one pair of accounts.

Aside: I did not use the general phone number. I used the one on the account-upgrade page. The CSR seemed very knowledgeable especially for a weedy question. She did "check the accounts" but didn't have to get more assistance.
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by grok87 »

Doc wrote:Having check writing or Quicken BillPay tied to a brokerage account scares the daylights out of me.

It just makes me sleep much better knowing that if some fraud occurs with all those payments that I make to entities all over the country (world) my loss is limit to a few $k even if the bank does not make it good.
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Quidnam
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by Quidnam »

For anybody who's interested, I just spoke with Vanguard and was advised that my accounts are not eligible for the upgrade because I use automatic exchanges. The rep said they do expect to implement this feature (probably later this year), and that they will advise when the eligibility status changes.
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by stan1 »

Seems like this is a big deal for Vanguard's IT department. As much as I like the idea I am in no hurry to be an early adopter on this. Would rather stick with what works than be an experimental guinea pig.
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by Doc »

Quidnam wrote:For anybody who's interested, I just spoke with Vanguard and was advised that my accounts are not eligible for the upgrade because I use automatic exchanges. The rep said they do expect to implement this feature (probably later this year), and that they will advise when the eligibility status changes.
I had gotten the same info last fall. But after eliminating them I still was not eligible. Eliminating them from only one pair of accounts didn't do any good.

Apparently there are at least three issues.

1) You have to convert all your accounts at the same time. We had five accounts his, hers and ours. Now we have six which is perverted to go to six so that you can then go to three.

2) The auto exchange issue. This is apparently related to #1. I was told the all or none was related to inter account exchanges.

3) The closed fund issue. Seems like nothing can be done about this one. Even a zero balance account not active for years can hold up the conversion. Some kind of IT and/or legal complication maybe.
stan1 wrote:Seems like this is a big deal for Vanguard's IT department. As much as I like the idea I am in no hurry to be an early adopter on this. Would rather stick with what works than be an experimental guinea pig
Vanguard is still having IT problems with wash sales in Vanguard mutual fund accounts. Since I do a lot of trades into and out of short bond funds and the current interest rate environment often leads to a loss, wash sales have become the rule rather than the exception. I am hoping that the brokerage side of the house which has had an extra year to handle the wash sale reporting requirement will be an improvement. Hence I am willing to be a guinea pig but it doesn't make me happy either
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by letsgobobby »

I have about a dozen $0 balance or closed accounts. Surely most Bogleheads and Vanguard investors have many and therefore aren't eligible for this conversion.
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by JoMoney »

My ROTH IRA account became eligible for upgrade (despite having several $0 balance / closed funds in the account). I'm still unable to upgrade my individual / taxable account. I'm wondering if the age of the account has any bearing. My Traditional IRA account was upgraded about a year ago, and was the youngest of my accounts. My ROTH account is a couple years older, and my taxable individual account oldest of them.
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by Doc »

JoMoney wrote:My ROTH IRA account became eligible for upgrade (despite having several $0 balance / closed funds in the account). I'm still unable to upgrade my individual / taxable account. I'm wondering if the age of the account has any bearing. My Traditional IRA account was upgraded about a year ago, and was the youngest of my accounts. My ROTH account is a couple years older, and my taxable individual account oldest of them.
"Closed" refers to new investors not to the fact that you may have closed your personal position.

I'm guessing that there is some kind of IT/legal problem associated with moving past data to a new registration if the fund is closed to new investors. But it doesn't make any sense to me. Transferring data does not create a "new investor" in my view. Transferring actual dollars is another matter.
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Re: VBS upgrade roll out has started

Post by JamesSFO »

BTW I got my account upgraded (Flagship) but it took some pestering, minimal fuss in Quicken and all is well. Much easier to have one single account like at Fidelity and elsewhere for all of my holdings of one type.
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"Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:

Last week I tried to help a friend open a $2,000 Target Fund in a Roth IRA. The convoluted Application talked about "Brokerage" and "Money Market Accounts" -- both of which we did not want. Upon receiving the friend's web-application, Vanguard withdrew $4,000 from his bank checking account -- resulting in 3 overdrawn check charges which I felt necessary to reimburse. :(

Today I read this Vanguard article which seems to confirm:

Action Requested

Any thoughts or more information?

Best wishes.
Taylor
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indexfundfan
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by indexfundfan »

Vanguard is just moving towards what other brokerages have been doing all along -- a single brokerage account that lets you buy Vanguard mutual funds, third party mutual funds as well as stocks and ETFs.

FWIW, I converted all my accounts as soon as they were eligible.
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abyan
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by abyan »

Yep. There's some issue, with the new combined accounts, they told me with regards to automatic RMDs. I don't recall what it was exactly, but the vanguard person warned me about it, said they think whatever service was missing in the new combined acct will eventually be added, but it's not there now. I think it might have been for people who want RMDs automatically withdrawn but dont want them sent to a bank account. Does anyone else remember what the issue was?
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by Longdog »

abyan wrote:Yep. There's some issue, with the new combined accounts, they told me with regards to automatic RMDs. I don't recall what it was exactly, but the vanguard person warned me about it, said they think whatever service was missing in the new combined acct will eventually be added, but it's not there now. I think it might have been for people who want RMDs automatically withdrawn but dont want them sent to a bank account. Does anyone else remember what the issue was?
That wouldn't (and shouldn't) explain why they withdrew $4000 instead of $2000 dollars! I feel confident they will make it right. They are not perfect, but in my experience they do own up to and correct their own mistakes.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by nisiprius »

Side issue. I just called them to find out why the website says I can't convert them... didn't quite get an answer... but found out that you CANNOT set up automatic deposits, withdrawals, or exchanges between Vanguard funds once they are in the brokerage account. (In the traditional mutual fund accounts, you can, if you like set up an automatic exchange of $500 a month for 24 months from fund X to fund Y... etc.) So I told them to leave well enough alone.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by JDDS »

Hmm, interesting. So did they make two $2k withdrawals?
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by ftobin »

I wish their FAQ covered whether people can opt-opt of this. Working in the trading industry, my employer will not allow a brokerage account at Vanguard for compliance reasons (I have to use "preferred" brokers). Given what nisiprius, I definitely prefer the level of automatic-ness I can achieve with mutual fund accounts too.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by asif408 »

I received an e-mail about converting my Vanguard accounts recently and went ahead and did it, since I only have a brokerage account with ETFs and might be interested in utilizing funds in the future. I have not had any issues with the conversion and am sorry to hear about your friend's issue. Did they provide any explanation why they withdrew $4000 instead of $2000? I agree with others that it wasn't clear whether it was optional or not to convert.

My parent's had an issue when they moved over to Vanguard recently. I believe Vanguard had double credited their account. Eventually the issue was resolved, but I believe for a while their account balance what showing double what it actually was :moneybag.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by House Blend »

FWIW, I will be opting out as long as possible.

I prefer all dividend and cap gain distributions in my taxable mutual fund account to go straight to my (external) bank account.

The new account structure only allows two choices for distributions: reinvest, or direct to a Money Market sweep account.

Perhaps they are putting people like me who use services that are being "improved" out of existence at the end of the queue.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by stlutz »

Hi Taylor,

This change is basically to eliminate the problems people had where dealing with VG Brokerage and VG mutual funds was no easier (and sometimes harder) than dealing with VG mutual funds and, say, Fidelity Brokerage.

I also echo ftobin--I wish they would make it more clear if this ultimately a required change or not.

Please let us know how it all gets worked out. As you know, Bogleheads often serves as the Vanguard complaint forum. From my perspective, issues can happen anywhere--I judge more based on how the companies ultimately resolve the problem, so this will be a good datapoint!
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by Doc »

They started this transition a year ago. We were invited to convert but when we tried got "none of our accounts are eligible". Over the last 12 months I have called several times and told couldn't do it because of "X". After correcting this it was because of "Y". And then there was "Z". I think there were one or two more but its getting hazy. Some times when I corrected the "problem" the situation got worse. I could no longer transfer funds between our joint account and DW's taxable account but I could between our joint account and my ROTH.

I was told they were supposed to have everyone on the new platform in first quarter 2014. They have lots of problems with details such as have been mentioned by others. One of the problems is that I had a fund closed to new investors and that was a problem. The fund has a zero balance. Go figure.

Last week I sold an ETF to buy a Vanguard fund. It took five business days. They were bond funds/ETFs so it didn't matter that much. If they had been equities I would have been in ....

There are two other threads on this topic.

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=1259
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 0&t=130133
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Byzantine Retirement Plans

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Did they provide any explanation why they withdrew $4000 instead of $2000?
Asif:

No "explanation" but they did say they would cancel the application as if nothing happened if requested within one week from the erroneous transaction.

A problem is that the $4,000 was put into a Roth IRA, and cancelling $2,000 will be treated as an IRA withdrawal. This means that future 2014 contributions will be limited to $1,000 (IRA maximum contributions per year).

Our byzantine retirement plans are a disgrace that no one can fully understand..

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

I called Vanguard to ask when they expect to have everyone switched over...end of 2016.
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Re: Byzantine Retirement Plans

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

Taylor Larimore wrote: A problem is that the $4,000 was put into a Roth IRA, and cancelling $2,000 will be treated as an IRA withdrawal. This means that future 2014 contributions will be limited to $1,000 (IRA maximum contributions per year).
Taylor
I think a letter of explanation to the feds will fix that.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

Doc wrote:Some times when I corrected the "problem" the situation got worse. I could no longer transfer funds between our joint account and DW's taxable account but I could between our joint account and my ROTH
Not sure if this is relevant (I have not been converted to the single account structure) but I can make all sorts of transfers, including JTROS accounts and my DW taxable account with the voice password system.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by Doc »

TheGreyingDuke wrote:
Doc wrote:Some times when I corrected the "problem" the situation got worse. I could no longer transfer funds between our joint account and DW's taxable account but I could between our joint account and my ROTH
Not sure if this is relevant (I have not been converted to the single account structure) but I can make all sorts of transfers, including JTROS accounts and my DW taxable account with the voice password system.
I have not converted either. I use to be able to do the transfers/exchanges you mentioned also. But then I was told that I needed to add a brokerage account (zero balance) to our joint mutual fund account and some but not all of the transfer abilities disappeared. We can still transfer/exchange from individual to joint but not the other way around to one individual account mutual fund account but can to the other. It makes no sense. This is just an illustration of the many problems they are having trying to tear down that Chinese wall between the two entities - VBS and Vg Mutual Fund companies.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by montanagirl »

This transition must be for Big Money because I haven't heard anything about it. :?
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Re: Byzantine Retirement Plans

Post by placeholder »

Taylor Larimore wrote:No "explanation" but they did say they would cancel the application as if nothing happened if requested within one week from the erroneous transaction.
Why would you let them off the hook with that lame bit of "solution"?
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"lame solution"

Post by Taylor Larimore »

placeholder wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:No "explanation" but they did say they would cancel the application as if nothing happened if requested within one week from the erroneous transaction.
Why would you let them off the hook with that lame bit of "solution"?
Two reasons:

1. The market was down after the contribution.

2. We had no better choice.

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by toto238 »

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Did they provide any explanation why they withdrew $4000 instead of $2000?
Asif:

No "explanation" but they did say they would cancel the application as if nothing happened if requested within one week from the erroneous transaction.

A problem is that the $4,000 was put into a Roth IRA, and cancelling $2,000 will be treated as an IRA withdrawal. This means that future 2014 contributions will be limited to $1,000 (IRA maximum contributions per year).

Our byzantine retirement plans are a disgrace that no one can fully understand..

Best wishes.
Taylor
I'm not sure if canceling that $2000 would actually count as an IRA withdrawal. I've had Vanguard cancel transactions into IRAs before and everything matched. My transaction history was updated so that the erroneous transaction never occured, the statements agree, and there was no 1099R produced so no withdrawal was reported to the IRS.

Nothing's been reported to the IRS quite yet, so I'd give Vanguard a little time to fix the mistake.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by Geologist »

What I worry about myself is the changeover and how it affects the accounts of my 89-year-old mother. She doesn't respond at all well to change these days. The descriptions I've read imply a whole new set of checkbooks and possibly account numbers. I'm 500 miles away and just can't drop in to help with the transition in person at any time.
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Re: "lame solution"

Post by placeholder »

Taylor Larimore wrote:
placeholder wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:No "explanation" but they did say they would cancel the application as if nothing happened if requested within one week from the erroneous transaction.
Why would you let them off the hook with that lame bit of "solution"?
Two reasons:

1. The market was down after the contribution.
2. We had no better choice.
Did Vanguard make a mistake or did you/your friend because if the former then they should not only be fixing the account they should be reimbursing any fees incurred for the overdrafts.
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by IPer »

dolphinsaremammals wrote:I called Vanguard to ask when they expect to have everyone switched over...end of 2016.
Excellent, I opt to wait and let them force the accounts to convert, perhaps they will fix bugs until then, thanks!
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by sport »

I believe that having a "mutual fund only" account has a measure of security over a combined mutual fund/brokerage account. If a brokerage account gets hacked, there is a lot of damaging mischief that could be done. However, if someone gets access to a mutual fund account, it would be much more difficult for them to profit by it. Accordingly, I do not want to switch to a brokerage account unless I have no choice.
Jeff
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Re: "lame solution"

Post by Taylor Larimore »

placeholder wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:
placeholder wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:No "explanation" but they did say they would cancel the application as if nothing happened if requested within one week from the erroneous transaction.
Why would you let them off the hook with that lame bit of "solution"?
Two reasons:

1. The market was down after the contribution.
2. We had no better choice.
Did Vanguard make a mistake or did you/your friend because if the former then they should not only be fixing the account they should be reimbursing any fees incurred for the overdrafts.
Placeholder:

I don't know who made the mistake. I, my friend, and a nice Vanguard representative helped with the application. I'm not going to make an issue of relatively small bank charges when it is easier for us to pay them (my friend gave me my money back).

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by toto238 »

nisiprius wrote:Side issue. I just called them to find out why the website says I can't convert them... didn't quite get an answer... but found out that you CANNOT set up automatic deposits, withdrawals, or exchanges between Vanguard funds once they are in the brokerage account. (In the traditional mutual fund accounts, you can, if you like set up an automatic exchange of $500 a month for 24 months from fund X to fund Y... etc.) So I told them to leave well enough alone.
My understanding was that automatic investments and automatic withdrawals were still fine. My VG CSR basically said it was only the automatic exchanges that weren't working. I don't really do automatic exchanges anyway, so I'm not too concerned. But they said they'll have the feature eventually.

The way the guy talked about it on the phone, it sounds like it's not technically "mandatory" just yet. But I'm guessing they're going to start putting more pressure on people as the majority of accounts get converted. Once 90% of accounts are upgraded, it may not be unreasonable of them to charge any old accounts an extra $20 annual fee to pay for the extra costs to their organization. Training employees on two systems, training their processors on two sets of procedures, etc. Sooner or later, we may have no choice but to upgrade.
ftobin
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Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by ftobin »

Fidelity used to have a dual-mode system like Vanguard, having mutual fund account separately from the brokerage. I kept a mutual fund-only account for many years after they merged their brokerage operation and fund operation. I was even allowed to create a new mutual fund-only account later when they didn't describe it anymore -- they were wondering why I needed it, but had no problems creating one for me.

Hopefully Vanguard is as flexible, otherwise I'll be forced have to move all my assets away.
JW-Retired
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:25 pm

Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by JW-Retired »

ftobin wrote:Fidelity used to have a dual-mode system like Vanguard, having mutual fund account separately from the brokerage. I kept a mutual fund-only account for many years after they merged their brokerage operation and fund operation. I was even allowed to create a new mutual fund-only account later when they didn't describe it anymore -- they were wondering why I needed it, but had no problems creating one for me.

Hopefully Vanguard is as flexible, otherwise I'll be forced have to move all my assets away.
Did you finally merge them at Fidelity? Any benefit from doing it?

I've got a 35 year old mutual fund account at Fidelity as well as a 20-something year old Fido Brokerage account. Never a peep from them about merging anything. Is there some advantage to merging or shall I keep on leaving well enough alone?
JW
Retired at Last
toto238
Posts: 1892
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:39 am

Re: "Vanguard converting mutual fund accounts to brokerage?

Post by toto238 »

ftobin wrote:Fidelity used to have a dual-mode system like Vanguard, having mutual fund account separately from the brokerage. I kept a mutual fund-only account for many years after they merged their brokerage operation and fund operation. I was even allowed to create a new mutual fund-only account later when they didn't describe it anymore -- they were wondering why I needed it, but had no problems creating one for me.

Hopefully Vanguard is as flexible, otherwise I'll be forced have to move all my assets away.
I imagine they would be. There's a lot of people who simply aren't allowed to own brokerage accounts they would essentially be banning. In all likelihood, it'll be something where you have to call in to ask about it but they don't advertise it as an option on the public web site.
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