[Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

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IlliniDave
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Re: My Fund is Down?! IT'S DISTRIBUTION TIME!!!

Post by IlliniDave »

john94549 wrote:Be honest, we all freaked out early on in our investing "lives" when we saw our funds (or ETFs) plunge on an "up" day.
I never noticed it until I started a taxable account where I don't automatically reinvest distributions. Usually I only look at my total balance across all funds, and even then not all that frequently. I "knew" how things worked, but the first time I saw it in action was actually this past December when I was looking at my Roth IRA account to see if there was any reason to rebalance. The markets were up a fair bit that day but I noticed the share price of a particular fund was down a percent or two. So while it wasn't a "freak out" I did do a double-take and snooped around some and determined I just happened to look the morning after the distribution. So it's even a bit jarring to some of us kids who have been around the block a time or two. :beer
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

It's time to pack this thread away until it's needed again, perhaps in December.

(Now "un-stickied" from the top of the forum.)
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by triceratop »

Bump. Bump. Bumpetty. Boop.

I had to play a guessing game as to what the URL should be, since it is not yet publicly linked to. I found it though! :) But it should be linked from the main Vanguard page at some point today.

Vanguard: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insigh ... ons-122015

Fidelity: https://www.fidelity.com/taxes/fidelity ... n/year-end

The wiki is updated.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Toons »

triceratop wrote:Bump. Bump. Bumpetty. Boop.

I had to play a guessing game as to what the URL should be, since it is not yet publicly linked to. I found it though! :) But it should be linked from the main Vanguard page at some point today.

Vanguard: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insigh ... ons-122015

Fidelity: https://www.fidelity.com/taxes/fidelity ... n/year-end

The wiki is updated.


+1 Good Idea :happy
A bump every so often the next few weeks :happy
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by triceratop »

Perhaps LadyGeek can re-sticky it. :happy
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Leeraar »

I think a fresh stickied thread is in order.

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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

triceratop wrote:Bump. Bump. Bumpetty. Boop.

I had to play a guessing game as to what the URL should be, since it is not yet publicly linked to. I found it though! :) But it should be linked from the main Vanguard page at some point today.

Vanguard: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insigh ... ons-122015

Fidelity: https://www.fidelity.com/taxes/fidelity ... n/year-end

The wiki is updated.
Bumped. This thread is now stuck to the top of the Investing - Theory, News & General forum. I'll pry it off the top sometime in January.

And here's the wiki link: Why did my fund unexpectedly drop in value
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P&C actuary
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by P&C actuary »

Yesterday was a down day for stocks. I was surprised to see the JP Morgan 500 index (HLEIX) in my HSA down 17% when the index was down 2%.

Sure enough, there was a LT CG the same day. Still surprising to see such a CG for an index fund, based on not seeing them for Vanguard 500 for years.

I know it doesn't change my investment. I am down about the same 2% for the day.
Indyxc
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Indyxc »

Similiar question about dividends, but on bond ETFS.

I own a couple ishares bond ETFS (HYG, ITSB, CIU) for my personal money.

How these work, as far as I can tell, is on the ex-dividend date, the share price goes down the payment amount. I do not get any more shares, just my payment per share.

That makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense to me, is since these are bonds, where is the interest payment going? Is the fund manager taking the income payments, and buying shares that the fund itself owns to drive the value of the ETF up?

Someone mentioned to me, that I make up the ex-dividend money by others buying into the fund over the month to get the payment. I agree, that on ex-dividend date, these funds do not follow the market indiciators, but bottom line is where do the bond payments themselves go?


Thanks!
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Leeraar »

Indyxc wrote:Similiar question about dividends, but on bond ETFS.

I own a couple ishares bond ETFS (HYG, ITSB, CIU) for my personal money.

How these work, as far as I can tell, is on the ex-dividend date, the share price goes down the payment amount. I do not get any more shares, just my payment per share.

That makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense to me, is since these are bonds, where is the interest payment going? Is the fund manager taking the income payments, and buying shares that the fund itself owns to drive the value of the ETF up?

Someone mentioned to me, that I make up the ex-dividend money by others buying into the fund over the month to get the payment. I agree, that on ex-dividend date, these funds do not follow the market indiciators, but bottom line is where do the bond payments themselves go?


Thanks!
The dividend payments are your share of the interest. Plus, maybe some other stuff. Take some time to decipher your statement or the tax forms they send you.

L.
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Indyxc
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Indyxc »

Leeraar wrote:
Indyxc wrote:Similiar question about dividends, but on bond ETFS.

I own a couple ishares bond ETFS (HYG, ITSB, CIU) for my personal money.

How these work, as far as I can tell, is on the ex-dividend date, the share price goes down the payment amount. I do not get any more shares, just my payment per share.

That makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense to me, is since these are bonds, where is the interest payment going? Is the fund manager taking the income payments, and buying shares that the fund itself owns to drive the value of the ETF up?

Someone mentioned to me, that I make up the ex-dividend money by others buying into the fund over the month to get the payment. I agree, that on ex-dividend date, these funds do not follow the market indiciators, but bottom line is where do the bond payments themselves go?


Thanks!
The dividend payments are your share of the interest. Plus, maybe some other stuff. Take some time to decipher your statement or the tax forms they send you.

L.
And that's where I am confused. They are reducing the NAV to pay me the interest, but I "own" the Nav. So to me it's always been they are taking my money, and using some of it to pay me my dividend. That hasn't made sense. Where is the borrowers bond coupon going to?
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Aptenodytes »

Indyxc wrote: And that's where I am confused. They are reducing the NAV to pay me the interest, but I "own" the Nav. So to me it's always been they are taking my money, and using some of it to pay me my dividend. That hasn't made sense.
Why doesn't that make sense? What is the alternative? Do you want them to take someone else's money to pay you your dividend? Or do you want them not to pay you your dividend? Both those alternatives are illegal. The only legal option is for them to distribute your dividends to you. What else could they do with the money?
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Leeraar »

You really need to do some bond basics 101.

The "face value" of the bond is irrelevant here. The face value does not change with time and interest (dividends) paid, but the market value surely does.

What your bond fund price is the market value of the bond. Suppose that is $10.00. Tomorrow, they cash in a coupon for $0.20, and they give you 20 cents. What do you think the market value of your bond then is?

L.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

Indyxc wrote:...And that's where I am confused. They are reducing the NAV to pay me the interest, but I "own" the Nav. So to me it's always been they are taking my money, and using some of it to pay me my dividend. That hasn't made sense. Where is the borrowers bond coupon going to?
Here's some background info about bonds: Bond basics

Go to the bottom of the article and read the tutorial: Bond Basics: Introduction

If it still doesn't make sense, please start a new thread and ask for help. Investing is not easy, and some have a harder time than others. Don't worry about questions being "too simple", ask away. If you don't understand the answer, let us know and we'll try again.
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Indyxc
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Indyxc »

Hello all,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I understand bonds (or at least I think I do lol), perhaps I am being unclear. Let me try to explain in more detail, and perhaps it may clarify, where I am confused.

So a regular bond. Let's say a 1 year bond, face value is $1000 dollars, and it pays 5%. At the end of the first year, I get my $1000 dollar principle back, plus $50 dollars in interest, so a total of $1050 back (or perhaps $25 every 6 months depending on the payment scheme). I understand that if yield went up or down during that span, the market price of the bond will be inverse to yield.

So onto bond ETFs. Bond ETFs are constantly buying more bonds to reflect their maturity level. Likewise, bonds are maturing constantly, etc.

My question is simple: Where does the interest/coupon collected from the bond etf go? I am assuming the returned principle from bond face value goes back to buy more of the same bond, but where is the interest go?

My bond etfs seem to work like this. Bond face value is $1000 dollars, and it pays 5%. So each month the interest is (50/12= $4.16). So, my bond ETF subtracts $1000-$4.16, and my new NAV is $995.84. So, they are essentially using my money to pay me back. This (50/12) shows up as a NAV LOSS every ex-dividend date on my statement. And my number of share DO not increase like the common stock dividen example. Meanwhile, the debtor (whose debt the BOND etf bought) is paying the bond etf back the 5% at the same time, so where is their money going?

Going back to my first example, the bond etf seems to work like this vs. the regular bond:

Bond face value is $1000 dollars, and it pays $5%. At the end of the year I get $50 dollars in interest, and $950 dollars in principle. Where did the %5 go?

Is the fund manager buying back the shares and making up the price of the net NAV loss? Or is the market price of the value of the bond return each month due to the dividend payment opportunity of the etf?
Thanks!
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Stormbringer »

I noticed this today, one of the Vanguard funds in my 401(k) is down 2%. I don't quite follow the mechanics of this. I get that the money is "distributed", but I would expect to see either:
  • An increase in shares, due the distributed money being reinvested; or
  • An increase in the cash position of the account.
I see neither of these. Do I just need to wait a day or two for the money to reappear?
“The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.” - Albert Allen Bartlett
Indyxc
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Indyxc »

Stormbringer wrote:I noticed this today, one of the Vanguard funds in my 401(k) is down 2%. I don't quite follow the mechanics of this. I get that the money is "distributed", but I would expect to see either:
  • An increase in shares, due the distributed money being reinvested; or
  • An increase in the cash position of the account.
I see neither of these. Do I just need to wait a day or two for the money to reappear?
Usually there is a lag of a couple days between the ex-dividend date and the pay date.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

Distribution season appears to be over. This thread is now released from the top of the Investing - Theory, News & General forum.

Someone please remind me when it's time to stick it back to the top of the forum.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

A member notified me that it's time for quarterly dividends. Here's Vanguard's notice: Find out if your fund is declaring a quarterly dividend in March

Dividends declared on Friday, March 11, will show up on Monday, March 14.

I'm proactively sticking this thread to the top of the forum for a few days.

Someone please remind me when it's needed again.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by beardsworth »

What an excellent and common-sense idea.

At the end of every quarter, sometimes every month, there's an outbreak of "OMG-my-dividend-paying-fund-price-dropped-yesterday-which-window-of-my-workplace-or-home-should-I-jump-out-of?" threads. :)

So perhaps a thread like this, repeatedly bumped up when timely, will reduce them.

Key word: perhaps.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by bayview »

Even though I was expecting this, I still jumped. :D It was interesting to see how slowly the dividends posted in the evening, although the final total balances for each fund were displaying at 6:00.

Note to self: don't plan on living off of dividend income, that's for sure.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

The quarterly dividend distribution season is over. I'm peeling this thread off the top of the forum back to being a "standard" topic.

Someone remind me when the next distribution season comes around again, or we can just wait until early December.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Beth* »

Vanguard declared dividends for some funds on March 15 and 17 and those dividends are still posting. I'm bumping this thread up for anyone who does a double-take looking at their holdings today or tomorrow. Here is the list: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insigh ... =Position3

Some of the funds with a declaration date of March 17 are funds that posters on this forum may hold, including the Index 500 Fund.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks, I made this topic a "sticky" again. I'll give it a few more days and then "unstick" it again.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by triceratop »

This shouldn't be stickied any longer.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Leeraar »

triceratop wrote:This shouldn't be stickied any longer.
Maybe it should be stickied forever?

That seems preferable to doing it for a few weeks each quarter.

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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

Via PM, someone reminded me that distribution season is just around the corner. This thread is now a "sticky" at the top of the forum. Perhaps it should just stay here.

To get things started, here's the latest from Vanguard: Find out if your fund is declaring a quarterly dividend in June (June 07, 2016) *

If anyone has dates from other providers (Fidelity, iShares, etc.), feel free to post them here.

=============================
* First posted by gkaplan here: "Find out if your [Vanguard] fund is declaring a quarterly dividend in June."
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michaeljc70
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by michaeljc70 »

Funny how there is no "Why did my fund suddenly go up in value" thread.....
ralph124cf
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by ralph124cf »

Indyxc wrote:Hello all,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I understand bonds (or at least I think I do lol), perhaps I am being unclear. Let me try to explain in more detail, and perhaps it may clarify, where I am confused.

So a regular bond. Let's say a 1 year bond, face value is $1000 dollars, and it pays 5%. At the end of the first year, I get my $1000 dollar principle back, plus $50 dollars in interest, so a total of $1050 back (or perhaps $25 every 6 months depending on the payment scheme). I understand that if yield went up or down during that span, the market price of the bond will be inverse to yield.

So onto bond ETFs. Bond ETFs are constantly buying more bonds to reflect their maturity level. Likewise, bonds are maturing constantly, etc.

My question is simple: Where does the interest/coupon collected from the bond etf go? I am assuming the returned principle from bond face value goes back to buy more of the same bond, but where is the interest go?

My bond etfs seem to work like this. Bond face value is $1000 dollars, and it pays 5%. So each month the interest is (50/12= $4.16). So, my bond ETF subtracts $1000-$4.16, and my new NAV is $995.84. So, they are essentially using my money to pay me back. This (50/12) shows up as a NAV LOSS every ex-dividend date on my statement. And my number of share DO not increase like the common stock dividen example. Meanwhile, the debtor (whose debt the BOND etf bought) is paying the bond etf back the 5% at the same time, so where is their money going?

Going back to my first example, the bond etf seems to work like this vs. the regular bond:

Bond face value is $1000 dollars, and it pays $5%. At the end of the year I get $50 dollars in interest, and $950 dollars in principle. Where did the %5 go?

Is the fund manager buying back the shares and making up the price of the net NAV loss? Or is the market price of the value of the bond return each month due to the dividend payment opportunity of the etf?
Thanks!
Your understanding of bonds is correct; however a bond is a contract between you and the issuing corporation or government body.

This is not the way a bond mutual fund or ETF works. The fund does not pay interest, interest is only paid to lenders.

The FUND earns money from the interest paid on the bonds it owns. It then pays you DIVIDENDS on the SHARES you own in the fund out of those earnings after deducting expenses. Most bond funds pay dividends monthly, but this is not always required. In addition, the fund may sell bonds before maturity. This may create a long or short term gain or loss. This is usually paid out once a year.

Ralph
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by gkaplan »

The table below lists Vanguard mutual funds and exchange-traded funds (ETFs) that are scheduled to distribute quarterly income dividends in September 2016.

Each fund's per-share dividend rate is posted on the vanguard.com distributions page on or the day after the fund's declaration date. Once the distribution amount is posted, you can log on to your account and view dividends for funds you own. The record date, payable date, reinvestment date, and other fund dividend information is also available. . . .

Find out if your fund is declaring a quarterly dividend in September.
Gordon
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by pasadena »

After reading Vanguard's estimated year-end distribution page, I'm still a bit confused as to when will the dividends for VTSAX be paid ? The record/declaration date was 12/16. Does that mean the ex-dividend date is this Monday, 12/19 ? The ETF (VTI) has an ex-dividend date of 12/20 but I understand ETF's dates are different than mutual funds' ?

I'm sorry to ask this and I'm sure it has been answered a million times but I couldn't find it clearly.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by pshonore »

pasadena wrote:After reading Vanguard's estimated year-end distribution page, I'm still a bit confused as to when will the dividends for VTSAX be paid ? The record/declaration date was 12/16. Does that mean the ex-dividend date is this Monday, 12/19 ? The ETF (VTI) has an ex-dividend date of 12/20 but I understand ETF's dates are different than mutual funds' ?

I'm sorry to ask this and I'm sure it has been answered a million times but I couldn't find it clearly.
Mutual funds don't have an ex-dividend date as such; they have a reinvestment date which is 12/19 in this case according to VG. If you owned it on 12/16 (the declaration date), you'll get this distribution, either reinvested or paid in cash. If you buy it on 12/19 (some call this the ex-dividend date), you will not but the price will be reduced by the amount of the distribution. In VTI's case, if you own it at the close of business on 12/19, you will get the dividend; paid or reinvested several days later. Generally the stock will open lower by the amount of the distribution on 12/20 assuming no unusual change in demand.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by pasadena »

pshonore wrote:Mutual funds don't have an ex-dividend date as such; they have a reinvestment date which is 12/19 in this case according to VG. If you owned it on 12/16 (the declaration date), you'll get this distribution, either reinvested or paid in cash. If you buy it on 12/19 (some call this the ex-dividend date), you will not but the price will be reduced by the amount of the distribution.
Thank you, I understand better now. I held off my bi-weekly investment on Friday to avoid the dividend, and was trying to understand when to place my order, taking advantage of the dividend-day reduced NAV *and* reinvesting the dividends I will get from the shares I already own.

So Monday it is.

Thanks
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Wakefield1 »

The Vanguard balances just dropped (on the password web page) in the last couple hours,the distributions might be getting taken out of the share prices but not yet been added back to the accounts. (Wellington family funds?)
bayview
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by bayview »

Intermediate and Long Treasury funds did their distribution magic. Gave me quite a turn for a moment. :shock:
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Wakefield1 »

As of checking my Vanguard log on a bit before 10:00 AM Eastern Christmas Morning--the missing money has magically reappeared-over $ 20 K ! :sharebeer Share prices are still down-some way down-but there are now more shares!
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by bayview »

The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri
Sidney
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Sidney »

Indeed. We are about to find out that when you break a loaf of bread in half, miraculously you have .... wait a minute ... still only one loaf.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by bertilak »

Sidney wrote:Indeed. We are about to find out that when you break a loaf of bread in half, miraculously you have .... wait a minute ... still only one loaf.
But unlike bread, the half you don't eat grows back to a full loaf! And does so by the time you are hungry again.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by jebmke »

bertilak wrote:But unlike bread, the half you don't eat grows back to a full loaf! And does so by the time you are hungry again.
whether you break it off or not.
Stay hydrated; don't sweat the small stuff
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by columbia »

For a few minutes, I fell for this re:a few funds I own. :oops: :moneybag
S17C
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by S17C »

I'm new to mutual funds and don't understand this: I bought a $10,000 mutual fund and soon after a dividend was paid (reinvested). The price of the shares dropped but I still have $10,000 in current value. However, it says I have about a $100 total loss on that mutual fund. If I sold all those shares today for $10,000 current value, then how do I lose $100?
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LadyGeek
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by LadyGeek »

The wiki might help: Dividend (Dividend distributions)

Using the share price of your mutual fund before and after the distribution, can you follow the example? If not, post the share price and number of shares owned before and after the distribution and we'll help you walk through it.

If you get stuck, which mutual fund is this (ticker symbol)?

My guess on the $100 loss is that you may not have accounted for the daily price changes along the way. Distributions are done at one point in time. After that, the share prices move around and you'll have gains and losses as a result.
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Whakamole
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Whakamole »

Any word yet on the timing for the June distributions?
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InvestorNewb
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by InvestorNewb »

Whakamole wrote:Any word yet on the timing for the June distributions?
The declaration dates are listed at:
Find out if your fund is declaring a quarterly dividend in June
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gkaplan
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by gkaplan »

InvestorNewb wrote:
Whakamole wrote:Any word yet on the timing for the June distributions?
The declaration dates are listed at:
Find out if your fund is declaring a quarterly dividend in June

Note too this thread:


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=220429&p=3395442&h ... d#p3395442
Gordon
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oldzey
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by oldzey »

Well, it's September already - how time flies!

Find out if your fund is declaring a quarterly dividend this month
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oldzey
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by oldzey »

Well, it's December already - where did 2017 go?

Mark your calendar for year-end fund distributions
"The broker said the stock was 'poised to move.' Silly me, I thought he meant up." ― Randy Thurman
Txsman
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by Txsman »

I bought 10000 shares at a reduced price..... :beer
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by tibbitts »

What happened to html? We have to download/view multiple pdfs now? I don't remember ever having to do that...

Anyway this has always been confusing for me, but as far as I know all that matters for mutual fund accounts is knowing the payable date, since for the many people who don't reinvest in taxable accounts, that's the date they need to modify the holding(s) in their deferred accounts to keep their allocation from going off the rails. Unless of course it already has and the dividend will help get it back in line.
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