Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total International

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FrysS
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Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total International

Post by FrysS » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:56 pm

Hi,
I recently had some Vanguard FTSE stock as ETF. I sold some for TLH and am planning to buy Vanguard Total International mutual fund. I had searched the forum, but there was no definitive answer. Is this considered a wash sale? Thanks!

- Fryssux

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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by Taylor Larimore » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:13 pm

Hi Fryssux:

We often get this question and Bogleheads agree: Exchanging these two funds is almost certainly NOT a wash sale. The Total International fund holds many more stocks including small-caps.

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by FrysS » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:15 pm

Thanks Taylor!

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by abuss368 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:32 pm

The IRS looks to see if the securities in question are identical in nature.
John C. Bogle: "You simply do not need to put your money into 8 different mutual funds!" | | Disclosure: Three Fund Portfolio + U.S. & International REITs

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by joe8d » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:32 pm

That's the best " Free Lunch " combo available in TLH Realm. I've made a couple ofTLH round trips with those 2 funds in the past.
All the Best, | Joe

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by Default User BR » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:16 pm

abuss368 wrote:The IRS looks to see if the securities in question are identical in nature.
There's no clear indication of what the IRS looks at.



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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by TomS » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:22 pm

On a related note, I'm planning on consolidating individual positions in Vanguard Emerging Markets, Pacific Stock, and European Stock index funds into a single position in Vanguard Total International. There's obviously a lot of overlap, but it wouldn't be identical, so that wouldn't trigger a wash sale, would it?

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by Taylor Larimore » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:47 pm

Hi Tom:
I'm planning on consolidating individual positions in Vanguard Emerging Markets, Pacific Stock, and European Stock index funds into a single position in Vanguard Total International. There's obviously a lot of overlap, but it wouldn't be identical, so that wouldn't trigger a wash sale, would it?
This is the applicable IRS definition of a "wash sale":
A wash sale occurs when you sell or otherwise dispose of stock or securities (including a contract or option to acquire or sell stock or securities) at a loss and, within 30 days before or after the sale or disposition, you buy substantially identical stock or securities,
Each of the 3 funds is not identical to Vanguard Total International. It is also unlikely they the exchange would result in identical holdings in the same ratio. The IRS has never defined "substantially identical," but it is my opinion that the consolidation you are considering is NOT a wash sale and very UNLIKELY to be challenged by the IRS.

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by baw703916 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:04 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:Hi Tom:
I'm planning on consolidating individual positions in Vanguard Emerging Markets, Pacific Stock, and European Stock index funds into a single position in Vanguard Total International. There's obviously a lot of overlap, but it wouldn't be identical, so that wouldn't trigger a wash sale, would it?
This is the applicable IRS definition of a "wash sale":
A wash sale occurs when you sell or otherwise dispose of stock or securities (including a contract or option to acquire or sell stock or securities) at a loss and, within 30 days before or after the sale or disposition, you buy substantially identical stock or securities,
Each of the 3 funds is not identical to Vanguard Total International. It is also unlikely they the exchange would result in identical holdings in the same ratio. The IRS has never defined "substantially identical," but it is my opinion that the consolidation you are considering is NOT a wash sale and very UNLIKELY to be challenged by the IRS.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Substantially identical is kind of a gray area for index funds--there simply has never been a court case which ruled on the issue. An IRS definition wouldn't in fact be the final word, it would merely be the IRS's legal opinion--for it to be a legal precedent, they would need a court to uphold their definition as it would apply to a particular case.

The argument for why what you propose would not be a wash sale are that: 1) it's unlikely that your individual holdings in Europe, Pacific, and EM have exactly the same proportions as their weights in Total International (you may have a lot more or a lot less EM); 2) Canada is about 10% of Total International, and isn't in any of the other three funds at all; 3) Total International includes small cap (the other didn't use to, not sure if they do now).

Brad
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by TomS » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:18 am

Thanks - for this, and for all the good info I've gained lurking here for the past couple of years...! I'm gradually whipping my portfolio into shape and figuring out how (not) complex or involved I want it to be :)

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by dbr » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:29 am

baw703916 wrote:
Substantially identical is kind of a gray area for index funds--there simply has never been a court case which ruled on the issue. An IRS definition wouldn't in fact be the final word, it would merely be the IRS's legal opinion--for it to be a legal precedent, they would need a court to uphold their definition as it would apply to a particular case.

The argument for why what you propose would not be a wash sale are that: 1) it's unlikely that your individual holdings in Europe, Pacific, and EM have exactly the same proportions as their weights in Total International (you may have a lot more or a lot less EM); 2) Canada is about 10% of Total International, and isn't in any of the other three funds at all; 3) Total International includes small cap (the other didn't use to, not sure if they do now).

Brad
It would be interesting if the IRS would argue that funds are partially identical to the degree they hold the same shares. Thus replacements of funds by funds would be partial wash sales almost always. The logistics of figuring that out on a day to day basis would be staggering, however. In any case this would reduce loss of tax revenue due to tax loss harvesting, but might cause the indicated tactic to shift to simply holding cash for thirty days. Of course, such a concept is hardly likely to happen. In reality there seems to be no interest at all in solidifying the definition in this area.

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by Default User BR » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:58 pm

dbr wrote:It would be interesting if the IRS would argue that funds are partially identical to the degree they hold the same shares.
To me, that's extremely unlikely. Trying to calculate the adjusted basis of the washed shares of a broad mutual fund would be a nightmare, and THEY would have to do the calculations. Besides, they'd have to stand up in tax court and defend it. I suspect that even if they went insane and tried it, they'd get smacked down in court.



Brian

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Why 30 day rule ?

Post by Taylor Larimore » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:33 pm

Hi Bogleheads:

Anyone know why there is a "30 day rule?" Must be a reason.

Thank you.
Taylor
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by momar » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:42 pm

So somewhat related, but I was wondering (just out of curiosity), what if someone had a large loss in one of the TR funds that they then TLH'd into identical proportions of the underlying funds?
"Index funds have a place in your portfolio, but you'll never beat the index with them." - Words of wisdom from a Fidelity rep

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Re: Why 30 day rule ?

Post by Eric » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:05 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:Anyone know why there is a "30 day rule?" Must be a reason.
From the government's perspective, the system for taxing gains and losses favors the taxpayer. The taxpayer chooses when to sell, so of course will tend to realize losses early and often -- while postponing the realization of gains. It's quite possible (indeed, advisable) to realize a steady stream of harvested losses over a period of years, even as your overall portfolio value is actually increasing. That's hard to justify as a matter of tax policy and theory.

The wash-sale rules are a half-hearted attempt to address this imbalance. The idea is that if you're going to realize a loss, it has to be a "real" transaction where you actually change your economic position and take some risk. I imagine the selection of 30 days, in particular, was somewhat arbitrary -- it just seemed like a reasonable period of time to weed out at least some illusory sales.

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by nonnie » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:16 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote: The IRS has never defined "substantially identical
Best wishes.
Taylor
Taylor makes an important point. In terms of aggressiveness, some DFA advisors maintain that selling DFA Tax Advantaged US Core Equity 2, DFTCX and buying DFA US Core Equity 2 -DFQTX does NOT violate the wash sale rule.

Top 10 holdings-DFTCX
Security Net Assets
Exxon Mobil Corporation (XOM) 1.77%
Chevron Corp (CVX) 1.68%
General Electric Co (GE) 1.40%
AT&T Inc (T) 1.38%
Pfizer Inc (PFE) 1.21%
JPMorgan Chase & Co (JPM) 1.12%
Wells Fargo & Co (WFC) 1.06%
Verizon Communications Inc (VZ) 0.89%
Merck & Co Inc (MRK) 0.80%
ConocoPhillips (COP) 0.74%


Top 10 holdings DFQTX
Security Net Assets
Chevron Corp (CVX) 1.73%
Exxon Mobil Corporation (XOM) 1.70%
General Electric Co (GE) 1.42%
AT&T Inc (T) 1.39%
Pfizer Inc (PFE) 1.21%
JPMorgan Chase & Co (JPM) 1.10%
Wells Fargo & Co (WFC) 1.04%
Merck & Co Inc (MRK) 0.85%
Verizon Communications Inc (VZ) 0.83%
ConocoPhillips (COP) 0.74%
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by Default User BR » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:05 am

momar wrote:So somewhat related, but I was wondering (just out of curiosity), what if someone had a large loss in one of the TR funds that they then TLH'd into identical proportions of the underlying funds?
For like the millionth time, no one knows. You have exactly as much information as any of us does.

In my opinion, it's unlikely that any combination of funds will be considered substantially identical to a single one.

People spend an inordinate amount time worrying about wash sales. If you have carryover losses, there's essentially no impact as long as everything was in taxable. Even if a wash were declared on a loss that was used to reduce taxes, the amount of interest and penalty would be small.


Brian

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by nonnie » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:44 pm

Default User BR wrote:People spend an inordinate amount time worrying about wash sales. If you have carryover losses, there's essentially no impact as long as everything was in taxable. Even if a wash were declared on a loss that was used to reduce taxes, the amount of interest and penalty would be small.


Brian
Well said. The other thing that is overlooked, I think, is that even if the wash sale is disallowed you can eventually claim the loss because the disallowed loss is added to the basis of the replacment stock.

"Consequences of a Wash Sale

The wash sale rule actually has three consequences:
■You are not allowed to claim the loss on your sale.
■Your disallowed loss is added to the basis of the replacement stock.
■Your holding period for the replacement stock includes the holding period of the stock you sold."

More than you ever, ever wanted to know about wash sales-- and even more--agonize away:

http://www.fairmark.com/capgain/wash/

Nonnie
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by baw703916 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:15 pm

nonnie wrote:
Well said. The other thing that is overlooked, I think, is that even if the wash sale is disallowed you can eventually claim the loss because the disallowed loss is added to the basis of the replacment stock.


Nonnie
Not if you buy the stock back in say a Roth. Then according to the IRS's interpretation, the loss is disallowed forever. However, this is once again the IRS's view, and hasn't been tested in court. In the legal opinion which the IRS published a few years ago, the only applicable case law they cite is an instance where a sale/purchase between an individual account and a trust was deemed a wash sale. However, in that instance, both accounts were taxable, so the loss could eventually be claimed. By permanantly increasing someone's tax liability because of a transaction inside a Roth, you are in essence taxing the Roth, which is contrary to Congress' intent in establishing Roths in the first place.
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by nonnie » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:54 pm

baw703916 wrote:
nonnie wrote:
Well said. The other thing that is overlooked, I think, is that even if the wash sale is disallowed you can eventually claim the loss because the disallowed loss is added to the basis of the replacment stock.


Nonnie
Not if you buy the stock back in say a Roth. Then according to the IRS's interpretation, the loss is disallowed forever. However, this is once again the IRS's view, and hasn't been tested in court. In the legal opinion which the IRS published a few years ago, the only applicable case law they cite is an instance where a sale/purchase between an individual account and a trust was deemed a wash sale. However, in that instance, both accounts were taxable, so the loss could eventually be claimed. By permanantly increasing someone's tax liability because of a transaction inside a Roth, you are in essence taxing the Roth, which is contrary to Congress' intent in establishing Roths in the first place.
You are absolutely right (Rev. Rul. 2008-5-) http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-08-05.pdf and thanks for clarifying that. I just assumed folks knew that one couldn't avoid the wash sale rule by purchasing shares in a a retirement account, period. Fairmark says this ruling applies to regular IRAs also: "The ruling specifies, in addition, that you do not obtain an adjustment to the basis of your traditional or Roth IRA when the rule applies. That means — as we've often warned here — the result is worse than a normal wash sale, because the loss is permanently disallowed rather than being added to the basis of the replacement shares." I guess one could always call the author of the ruling for further clarification "For further information
regarding this revenue ruling, contact Mr. Wade at (202) 622-3950"

edit: It's not only Fairmark, IRS also says this applies to both IRA and Roth:
http://www.irs.gov/irb/2008-03_IRB/ar01.html#d0e33
"Rev. Rul. 2008-5 Rev. Rul. 2008-5
Loss from wash sales of stock or securities. This ruling provides that if an individual sells stock or securities for a loss and causes his or her IRA or Roth IRA to purchase substantially identical stock or securities within a specified period, the loss on the sale of the stock or securities is disallowed under section 1091 of the Code, and the individual’s basis in the IRA or Roth IRA is not increased by virtue of section 1091(d). "

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by nonnie » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:23 pm

I'm finding this subject more fascinating as I research further. For instance, I'd never thought about this with regard to wash sales and subsequent dividends: "For example, if investors sell shares in a fund for a loss on December 2 and the fund manager decides to distribute dividends on December 20, the 30 mandatory days have not elapsed. As a result, the loss sale will be disallowed by the wash-sale rule—or at least reduced by the number of shares purchased under the dividend reinvestment program. Obviously, this won't be a problem for those investors who prefer to accumulate dividends without selling shares in the fund. But for individuals who need to systematically withdraw cash from the fund, such as retirees, the possibility clearly exists that the wash-sale rule will disallow the tax benefits of selling shares at a loss. "

http://www.indexuniverse.com/publicatio ... /2040.html

Obviously, this is not to be taken as IRS tax rules.

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by winterescape » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:26 pm

I use a very simple rule, which has never been tested as far as I know. If the ticker symbol is not the same it is not “substantially identical” A simple argument for this would be “why would Vanguard go to the trouble of registering and maintaining the two funds if they were identical? Why not just merge them?”

Therefore: VEU is not equal to VXUS

If you search I seem to remember a thread where someone argued that a S&P index fund at one fund family was not equal to a S&P index fund at another family, let me know if this holds up in an audit…

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by Kevin M » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:40 pm

winterescape wrote:I use a very simple rule, which has never been tested as far as I know. If the ticker symbol is not the same it is not “substantially identical” A simple argument for this would be “why would Vanguard go to the trouble of registering and maintaining the two funds if they were identical? Why not just merge them?”
A simple example to disprove this (in my mind anyway) is different share classes of Vanguard funds. Admiral shares of a fund have a different ticker symbol than investor shares, but they hold exactly the same stocks in exactly the same proportions.

Kevin
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by winterescape » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:47 pm

O.K. O.K good point, the asterisk at the bottom then reads “except where the same fund has multiple share classes and it is just a different ticker/ share class of the same fund”

The print is normal size here but of course it would be 4 point font :D

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by baw703916 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:31 pm

winterescape wrote:O.K. O.K good point, the asterisk at the bottom then reads “except where the same fund has multiple share classes and it is just a different ticker/ share class of the same fund”

The print is normal size here but of course it would be 4 point font :D
Although this has never been tested in court either, the conventional wisdom is that two index funds that follow the same index are probably substantially identical. For instance, a swap between VFINX and SPY (both follow S&P 500) or VWO and EEM (both follow MSCI EM index).
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by nonnie » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:41 pm

Although this has never been tested in court either, the conventional wisdom is that two index funds that follow the same index are probably substantially identical. For instance, a swap between VFINX and SPY (both follow S&P 500) or VWO and EEM (both follow MSCI EM index).[/quote]


That's not the position of DFA and some of their advisors-- see my posting upthread -- DFA Tax Advantaged US Core Equity 2, DFTCX vs. DFA US Core Equity 2 -DFQTX -- top 10 holdings are identical (included in the post to which I am referring). Extremely aggressive position.

See page 4 of this document:
http://www.trxpert.com/pdf/DFA%20Tax%20 ... esting.pdf
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by winterescape » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:42 pm

winterescape wrote:If you search I seem to remember a thread where someone argued that a S&P index fund at one fund family was not equal to a S&P index fund at another family, let me know if this holds up in an audit…
baw703916 wrote:Although this has never been tested in court either, the conventional wisdom is that two index funds that follow the same index are probably substantially identical. For instance, a swap between VFINX and SPY (both follow S&P 500) or VWO and EEM (both follow MSCI EM index).
I agree, I would have a hard time defending that one..

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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by baw703916 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:57 pm

Well, one loophole on the DFA issue (kind of in the "legally accurate" category ;) ) is that DFA's funds aren't index funds. I agree that in this particular case the two examples look pretty darned similar. But in general, DFA has latitude to wait for momentum, liquidity, and availability of shares to become favorable before reconstituting their portfolios. This means that, in general, an investor doesn't know exactly what a DFA fund holds at a given moment. Knowing that two funds which track the same index will always hold pretty much the same porfolio is a key aspect of an investor being able to execute a risk-free arbitrage between the two.

Brad
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by nonnie » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:13 pm

baw703916 wrote:Well, one loophole on the DFA issue (kind of in the "legally accurate" category ;) ) is that DFA's funds aren't index funds. I agree that in this particular case the two examples look pretty darned similar. But in general, DFA has latitude to wait for momentum, liquidity, and availability of shares to become favorable before reconstituting their portfolios. This means that, in general, an investor doesn't know exactly what a DFA fund holds at a given moment. Knowing that two funds which track the same index will always hold pretty much the same porfolio is a key aspect of an investor being able to execute a risk-free arbitrage between the two.

Brad
Makes as much sense as anything else I've read. Where's a DFA Advisor when you need one? :P
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Re: Wash Sale? - Vanguard FTSE to Vanguard Total Internation

Post by Default User BR » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:19 pm

nonnie wrote:As a result, the loss sale will be disallowed by the wash-sale rule—or at least reduced by the number of shares purchased under the dividend reinvestment program.
Notice the caveat. Depending on the number of shares generated by the distribution, and the amount sold, likely most of the sale is ok. Also, you could turn around and sell the new reinvestment shares if desired to get back. Again, that's if you don't cross the tax-advantaged boundary.



Brian

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