Bonds - what are they good for?

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Vulcan
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Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

May I be forgiven for an intentionally provocative thread title, but I have a confession to make:

I don't like bonds. Except I Bonds.

Yes, yes, I understand, efficient frontier, reduced volatility, sequence of returns risk, Trinity Study, and yada-yada-yada.

I also understand that if you hold the bond fund for its average duration, you are unlikely to lose any money.

Enter inflation:

Image

So even TIPS funds didn't really protect their holders from unexpected inflation.

(I get it one could buy TIPS directly, but that is not something I am interested in ever pursuing, so let's leave that out; you still have to hold them to maturity to eliminate the interest rate risk).

And here is 70/30 VT/BND vs 100% VT:

Image

A pretty harsh penalty for the "safety" of bonds.

Otherwise a responsible boglehead (having held without panicking since early 2000s), I find it difficult to convince myself to commit significantly to bond funds, lagging somewhat behind my already aggressive IPS, with most bond holdings in I Bonds (which, of course, would show as a perfect straight or a gently curving up line on the top chart, pre-tax). If I could fill my bonds bucket entirely with I Bonds, I would do that and call it a portfolio.

I once heard somewhere bonds were called "certificates of guaranteed confiscation", and it really struck a chord with me.

Can y'all talk some sense into me?
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by jebmke »

Have you read the hundreds of "Why Bonds" threads yet? I doubt there will be anything new to report.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Valuethinker »

I note you have avoided 2008-9? Plot US Treasuries against the stock market.

Or 2000-03.

I suspect March-April 2020 US Treasuries outperformed stocks? Remember the market dropping by 35%?

1994 was an odd year when *both* bonds and stocks went down (from memory, bonds more than stocks). To repeat that, you have to go back to 1981 I believe.

If you can live with 100% equities you will get a higher return. But you pay a big price in higher volatility.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by typical.investor »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:08 pm
Can y'all talk some sense into me?
No, I can't.

All I can say is that stocks offer a premium. To earn that premium, you have to not freak out in 2020 or 2022. Yes, you are better off holding stocks but the magnitude of loss at a particular point in time may cause you to do something rash. This is particularly true when you are no longer worker, the economic news is endlessly bad and you just want to keep what you have and not lose more.

People do jump out of the market and try to get back in years later when it's all clear. You aren't seeing that on your graph.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

A) Do you only invest one lump sum and never add any money again?

B) Can you guarantee that the next 10 years to be the same the past 10 years?

C) Can you guarantee that you will never withdraw from the portfolio for the next 10 years?

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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

Common sense is highly uncommon.

How does it makes any sense to put all your eggs into one ("stock") basket?

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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by AlohaBill »

I think how much you save each month is way more important than worrying about bonds.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by AlohaBill »

I think how much you save each month is way more important than worrying about bonds.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by jebmke »

typical.investor wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm People do jump out of the market and try to get back in years later when it's all clear. You aren't seeing that on your graph.
I know someone who tried that three times and got it wrong every time. Got back in above his exit point. Eventually had to sell their second home to raise cash and his spouse made him turn everything over to a manager.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by er999 »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:08 pm May I be forgiven for an intentionally provocative thread title, but I have a confession to make:


(I get it one could buy TIPS directly, but that is not something I am interested in ever pursuing, so let's leave that out; you still have to hold them to maturity to eliminate the interest rate risk).


Can y'all talk some sense into me?
If I remember right you are fairly wealthy and a relatively early retiree. Individual tips held to maturity are a great way to provide an income floor extending out up to 30 years and now is a great time to buy. It’s worth the effort to learn about them. There aren’t promoted or publicized much (other than on here) since no one makes money recommending them.

There’s a 10 year tips auction coming up next week:
https://tipswatch.com/2023/09/17/10-yea ... -14-years/

You could buy a small amount (1 bond = $1000 is the smallest you can buy at most brokers like fidelity)

It’s likely stocks will beat tips but seems better insurance for a multi year equity downturn in a high inflation environment.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

It is only good for dumb people like me. Hence, I am diversified to protect myself from my own ignorance. Only smart people know which single asset class will do well over the next 10 years.

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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

Valuethinker wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm I note you have avoided 2008-9? Plot US Treasuries against the stock market.

Or 2000-03.
Yes, I simply charted the most recent period slightly exceeding BND's duration to illustrate the "you won't lose any money in bonds" argument.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

AlohaBill wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:37 pm I think how much you save each month is way more important than worrying about bonds.
The more I save - the less I like it being eaten away by inflation :oops:
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by jebmke »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:44 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm I note you have avoided 2008-9? Plot US Treasuries against the stock market.

Or 2000-03.
Yes, I simply charted the most recent period slightly exceeding BND's duration to illustrate the "you won't lose any money in bonds" argument.
I don't recall that argument
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Trance »

Good question! I see the point you raised about tips being asked quite often. And it's a reasonable one too! "Why did the Inflation Protected Securities lose value when inflation occured?" TIPS bonds, like all bonds, have an interest rate risk. Which means if you buy tips, and then the interest rate goes up, the market value of your bond goes down because new bonds can be bought that are yielding more than yours.

How much does it drop? For every percentage point interest rates go up or down, your bond will lose or gain 1% multiplied by the average duration. So if your ETF has an average duration of 2 years and interest rates go up 2%, your bond will lose 4% value. And if your ETF has an average duration of 25 years like EDV then you're lose 50%. This is what people mean when they talk about longer term bonds being "risky". So your TIPS fund lost value not because of inflation, but because the rising interest rates increased and newer bonds came out that had better yields.

Now what you're missing is the yield or interest payments on your TIPS bonds. Normally bonds have their yield reduced by inflation. If you buy a 5 year bond at 2% yield and then inflation is 3% on average for those 5 years, then you technically had -1% yield.

TIPS are the opposite. They get the inflation rate paid to them in addition to their agreed about yield. So in the previous example, if you had a 5 year tips bond at 2% yield and then inflation is 3% on average for those 5 years, then your real yield is still 2%, but your total yield (nominal) is 5%

Something important to note is that the market is always pricing in inflation even with normal bonds. For example, if you look at the current bond yields for 10 year: https://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates ... t-bonds/us

Nominal 10Y bonds are yielding 4.33% while 10Y TIPS bonds are yielding 1.98%. What does that mean? The market is pricing in an expected average annualized inflation of 2.35%. But this is only a prediction and it fluctuates daily. So what TIPS bonds do is protect you from unexpected inflation. Like from a pandemic or war.

Another example, if you go here:
https://seekingalpha.com/symbol/SCHP/dividends/yield
and compare SCHP (total TIPS market) to BND (total nominal bond market) you'll see that the yields for SCHP spiked pretty dang high. That was the inflation protection. The holders were being given increased dividend payments to compensate them for inflation. And it was unexpected inflation that nominal bonds didn't price in. Hence the big spike difference. So you hold tips to get that payout during unexpected inflation when prices are increasing.

Also "why do hold bonds" is a lengthy topic but I will say this, the equity premium that comes with stocks pretty much guarantees that over the long term they will always outperform bonds. Which makes sense if you think about it, the whole reason people are raising money by selling bonds is because they expect to make money from this loaned amount, more than they are willing to pay their bond holders. Otherwise, if bonds made more, they'd just go hold bonds.

Which is exactly what happens when the central bank raises rates. Increasing the yield on bonds means that it becomes more expensive to raise money for economic activity and the less profitable ventures become less profitable than just holding bonds. Hence why stock growth and economic growth will slow, cooling the economy.
Last edited by Trance on Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

typical.investor wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm All I can say is that stocks offer a premium. To earn that premium, you have to not freak out in 2020 or 2022.
2022? Something happened in 2022? 8-)

I really am pretty comfortable with stocks volatility. I only wish I had more to invest in 2008.

But this is not one of those "why not 100% stocks" threads. It's just that, gee do bond funds suck long term...

I am not greedy. Give me something that works like I bonds: even zero percent real, but guaranteed inflation protection, and no interest rate risk, and I will load up.

And yes, I know, that's what individual TIPS are for. But you have to match them to "liabilities". And you can't buy them in tax-deferred accounts, where most of our portfolio is (we have a lot of tax-deferred space available; the rest is in I Bonds).
Last edited by Vulcan on Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by anagram »

jebmke wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:46 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:44 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm I note you have avoided 2008-9? Plot US Treasuries against the stock market.

Or 2000-03.
Yes, I simply charted the most recent period slightly exceeding BND's duration to illustrate the "you won't lose any money in bonds" argument.
I don't recall that argument
It's all over BH. Hold for duration and all will be fine.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by jebmke »

anagram wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm
jebmke wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:46 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:44 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm I note you have avoided 2008-9? Plot US Treasuries against the stock market.

Or 2000-03.
Yes, I simply charted the most recent period slightly exceeding BND's duration to illustrate the "you won't lose any money in bonds" argument.
I don't recall that argument
It's all over BH. Hold for duration and all will be fine.
I have not seen that. What I have seen most is that bonds will lose less than stocks and provide funds to eat and re-balance. I retired in December, 2007. In 2008-09 I was selling bonds like crazy and buying stock and food (and trips to Europe/California/Canada, home improvements and a few other things).
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by dbr »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm It's just that, gee do bond funds suck long term...

If knowing what you know that is what you think, then for you owning bonds does not make sense.

The next step is apply the same thinking to what you are choosing to hold instead and see if that makes sense. Hopefully it will not turn out that holding bonds makes no sense and not holding bonds also makes no sense.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by jebmke »

dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:55 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm It's just that, gee do bond funds suck long term...

If knowing what you know that is what you think, then for you owning bonds does not make sense.

The next step is apply the same thinking to what you are choosing to hold and see if that makes sense. Hopefully it will not turn out that holding bonds makes no sense and not holding bonds also makes no sense.
also, I would argue that 10 years is not "long term." I've been investing since the late 70s and, knock on wood, perhaps will be for another 20 years.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Drew31 »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:44 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm I note you have avoided 2008-9? Plot US Treasuries against the stock market.

Or 2000-03.
Yes, I simply charted the most recent period slightly exceeding BND's duration to illustrate the "you won't lose any money in bonds" argument.
BND duration is ~6 years? Chart is 10?
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm But this is not one of those "why not 100% stocks" threads. It's just that, gee do bond funds suck long term...
I'd also argue BND duration or even 10 years shouldn't necessarily be considered long term.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by dbr »

anagram wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm
jebmke wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:46 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:44 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm I note you have avoided 2008-9? Plot US Treasuries against the stock market.

Or 2000-03.
Yes, I simply charted the most recent period slightly exceeding BND's duration to illustrate the "you won't lose any money in bonds" argument.
I don't recall that argument
It's all over BH. Hold for duration and all will be fine.
There have been many, many posts that have tried to explain what goes on with duration and bond funds. Unfortunately this does not seem to overcome dropping in simplistic half truth statements on the topic. So you are correct. It is all over BH, but so is a lot of more comprehensive information. It is true that bonds in general and bond funds in particular should not be represented as something they are not.

None of that means that directing some consideration to owning bonds is generically mistaken.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by anagram »

Drew31 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:01 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:44 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm I note you have avoided 2008-9? Plot US Treasuries against the stock market.

Or 2000-03.
Yes, I simply charted the most recent period slightly exceeding BND's duration to illustrate the "you won't lose any money in bonds" argument.
BND duration is ~6 years? Chart is 10?
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm But this is not one of those "why not 100% stocks" threads. It's just that, gee do bond funds suck long term...
I'd also argue BND duration or even 10 years shouldn't necessarily be considered long term.
Well let's chart 2D-1 and see if bonds lose money then. D = 6.4 years so let's chart 11.8 years. Let's call it 12 years.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

er999 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:39 pm If I remember right you are fairly wealthy and a relatively early retiree. Individual tips held to maturity are a great way to provide an income floor extending out up to 30 years and now is a great time to buy. It’s worth the effort to learn about them. There aren’t promoted or publicized much (other than on here) since no one makes money recommending them.
I'm in my late 40ies (as of a few days ago:), DW a few years younger. Not yet ready to retire, and not sure how to think about future expenses yet.

TIPS auctions strike as a bit of a departure from the simplicity mantra that I embrace (our Vanguard IRAs are currently 100% VTWAX), and something that I would prefer DW didn't have to worry about.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by jebmke »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:42 pm OP,

It is only good for dumb people like me. Hence, I am diversified to protect myself from my own ignorance. Only smart people know which single asset class will do well over the next 10 years.

KlangFool
implicit in this is the important point that the objectives of one's investment strategy may not be solely to produce the highest possible return. Mine certainly isn't. My objective all along was to have enough to meet all my goals.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

Trance wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:48 pm Good question! I see the point you raised about tips being asked quite often. And it's a reasonable one too! "Why did the Inflation Protected Securities lose value when inflation occured?" TIPS bonds, like all bonds, have an interest rate risk. Which means if you buy tips, and then the interest rate goes up, the market value of your bond goes down because new bonds can be bought that are yielding more than yours.
Yes, all that is understood. The end result, still, is that 10 years later, a BND holder is sitting on a sizeable real loss. If bonds are not safe for 10 years, how long are they safe for?

My sense is, nominal bonds are not safe for any duration in real terms, and TIPS funds are not much better. Individual TIPS can be better. But the hassle factor may be too much if my wife has to deal with them at some point.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by KingRiggs »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm
typical.investor wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:31 pm All I can say is that stocks offer a premium. To earn that premium, you have to not freak out in 2020 or 2022.
2022? Something happened in 2022? 8-)

I really am pretty comfortable with stocks volatility. I only wish I had more to invest in 2008.

But this is not one of those "why not 100% stocks" threads. It's just that, gee do bond funds suck long term...

I am not greedy. Give me something that works like I bonds: even zero percent real, but guaranteed inflation protection, and no interest rate risk, and I will load up.

And yes, I know, that's what individual TIPS are for. But you have to match them to "liabilities". And you can't buy them in tax-deferred accounts, where most of our portfolio is (we have a lot of tax-deferred space available; the rest is in I Bonds).
You can, indeed, buy individual TIPS in a brokerage account, just not from Treasury Direct.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:55 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm It's just that, gee do bond funds suck long term...

If knowing what you know that is what you think, then for you owning bonds does not make sense.

The next step is apply the same thinking to what you are choosing to hold instead and see if that makes sense. Hopefully it will not turn out that holding bonds makes no sense and not holding bonds also makes no sense.
I (think I) understand the long-term argument for stocks. I do not understand the long-term argument for bond funds. I understand the argument for TIPS auctions. But that is more complexity that I want to have for my wife to deal with. If I could just buy more I Bonds I would be happy.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

KingRiggs wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:11 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm And yes, I know, that's what individual TIPS are for. But you have to match them to "liabilities". And you can't buy them in tax-deferred accounts, where most of our portfolio is (we have a lot of tax-deferred space available; the rest is in I Bonds).
You can, indeed, buy individual TIPS in a brokerage account, just not from Treasury Direct.
Yes - I misspoke. Can't buy them in employer-sponsored tax-deferred accounts. I guess we could start buying them in our Vanguard IRAs.

I may have to look into what that entails.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by jebmke »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:15 pm
KingRiggs wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:11 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:50 pm And yes, I know, that's what individual TIPS are for. But you have to match them to "liabilities". And you can't buy them in tax-deferred accounts, where most of our portfolio is (we have a lot of tax-deferred space available; the rest is in I Bonds).
You can, indeed, buy individual TIPS in a brokerage account, just not from Treasury Direct.
Yes - I misspoke. Can't buy them in employer-sponsored tax-deferred accounts. I guess we could start buying them in our Vanguard IRAs.

I may have to look into what that entails.
It is like buying any other security. I bought a truckload in 2008.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by rich126 »

You could always try to fool yourself by avoiding bonds directly but instead buy a fund like Wellington or Wellesley that holds bonds and stocks and you don't have to see as many bad years.

I'm about a decade older than you and just starting retirement and I still can't buy bonds. I'll buy treasuries or CDs but not a bond fund. If something is supposed to provide flotation in turbulent seas, I want something that isn't going to lose money.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

jebmke wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:20 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:15 pm Yes - I misspoke. Can't buy them in employer-sponsored tax-deferred accounts. I guess we could start buying them in our Vanguard IRAs.

I may have to look into what that entails.
It is like buying any other security. I bought a truckload in 2008.
Just looked at TIPS auctions and secondary markets at Vanguard. Quite a steep learning curve after holding nothing but VTWAX there. And certainly not something I would want DW to have to deal with one day.

At least with I Bonds I don't have to worry about buying the right duration decades ahead - my money is there when I need it.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by dbr »

In my opinion it is reasonable to consider I bonds as an illustration of what constitutes a safe from of fixed income holding. If nothing else quite meets that criterion it is time to figure out means to purchase the necessary amount in I bonds, keeping in mind that there is a 30 year lifetime on the bond.

Again, that is what there is and you just choose what works.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:34 pm C) Can you guarantee that you will never withdraw from the portfolio for the next 10 years?
Can you guarantee that bond funds will not lose money for the next 10 years?
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by dbr »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:42 pm Just looked at TIPS auctions and secondary markets at Vanguard. Quite a steep learning curve after holding nothing but VTWAX there. And certainly not something I would want DW to have to deal with one day.
It isn't a bad idea to define now what the extent of "have to deal with" amounts to and you and DW think through what that means.

I have a 401k filled with a TIPS fund and the only "dealing with" is to understand and execute the RMD requirement and associated tax reporting. There is no need to be on top of things like why the fund went up or down this month or that month, or how much interest was paid or whatever. The 401k agent tells us what the RMD is every year.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by dbr »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:47 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:34 pm C) Can you guarantee that you will never withdraw from the portfolio for the next 10 years?
Can you guarantee that bond funds will not lose money for the next 10 years?
Obviously bond funds can lose money sometime during or for the whole of any ten year period. The question is so what? If that happening is unacceptable to you, then surely you would not own any bond funds. There is nothing wrong with that if you have an alternative.

It might help to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish, problem to solve, or whatever.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:44 pm In my opinion it is reasonable to consider I bonds as an illustration of what constitutes a safe from of fixed income holding. If nothing else quite meets that criterion it is time to figure out means to purchase the necessary amount in I bonds, keeping in mind that there is a 30 year lifetime on the bond.

Again, that is what there is and you just choose what works.
What do you mean by "figure out means to purchase the necessary amount"? We are maxing out what we can, including via tax refunds.

And particularly in tax-deferred, where the bulk of our portfolio is, I Bonds aren't an option at all.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by KlangFool »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:47 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:34 pm C) Can you guarantee that you will never withdraw from the portfolio for the next 10 years?
Can you guarantee that bond funds will not lose money for the next 10 years?
1) I look at my 60/40 portfolio as an whole entity.

2) As long as the bond lose less than the stock, it had done it's job.

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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:49 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:42 pm Just looked at TIPS auctions and secondary markets at Vanguard. Quite a steep learning curve after holding nothing but VTWAX there. And certainly not something I would want DW to have to deal with one day.
It isn't a bad idea to define now what the extent of "have to deal with" amounts to and you and DW think through what that means.

I have a 401k filled with a TIPS fund and the only "dealing with" is to understand and execute the RMD requirement and associated tax reporting.
I may be missing something there. I was writing about TIPS auctions, and you responded about TIPS funds.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:55 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:47 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:34 pm C) Can you guarantee that you will never withdraw from the portfolio for the next 10 years?
Can you guarantee that bond funds will not lose money for the next 10 years?
1) I look at my 60/40 portfolio as an whole entity.

2) As long as the bond lose less than the stock, it had done it's job.
Yes, I understand the "look at the whole portfolio" argument. One could even, as rich126 suggested, buy a single fund that holds stocks and bonds to make the bitter pill easier to go down.

But I sill know what's in that pill. And it causes me a gag reflex.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by dbr »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:52 pm
dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:44 pm In my opinion it is reasonable to consider I bonds as an illustration of what constitutes a safe from of fixed income holding. If nothing else quite meets that criterion it is time to figure out means to purchase the necessary amount in I bonds, keeping in mind that there is a 30 year lifetime on the bond.

Again, that is what there is and you just choose what works.
What do you mean by "figure out means to purchase the necessary amount"? We are maxing out what we can, including via tax refunds.

And particularly in tax-deferred, where the bulk of our portfolio is, I Bonds aren't an option at all.
The I bond threads discussed various combinations of purchase amounts for one person, a couple, a person or a couple with trusts, whether or not gifting I bonds is helpful, and so on.

But, indeed, if the option is not practical then maybe there are no bonds that are good for anything for you. You will have to build and store your wealth some other way.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by z3r0c00l »

1929-1959. Stocks can stay down for a whole retirement.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by edge »

I think the correct question is: ‘why low credit quality or long duration bonds?’

And the answer for me is: there is no ‘why’.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:02 pm The I bond threads discussed various combinations of purchase amounts for one person, a couple, a person or a couple with trusts, whether or not gifting I bonds is helpful, and so on.
Yes, but I understood the gifting loophole as more of a way to try to time the I Bonds market, since you're still limited to 10K/yr you can buy or deliver combined. And starting a trust just to buy I bonds may indeed be an overkill.
dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:02 pm But, indeed, if the option is not practical then maybe there are no bonds that are good for anything for you. You will have to build and store your wealth some other way.
I understand you are one of the bh resident bonds experts.

Do I have it correctly that your personal choice for the bonds portion of your portfolio is a TIPS fund (not nominals, and not individual TIPS)?
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by Vulcan »

z3r0c00l wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:06 pm 1929-1959. Stocks can stay down for a whole retirement.
This is not a "why not 100% stocks" thread. I don't want 100% stocks. But I'm not sure I want BND either :oops:
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by dbr »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:57 pm
dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:49 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:42 pm Just looked at TIPS auctions and secondary markets at Vanguard. Quite a steep learning curve after holding nothing but VTWAX there. And certainly not something I would want DW to have to deal with one day.
It isn't a bad idea to define now what the extent of "have to deal with" amounts to and you and DW think through what that means.

I have a 401k filled with a TIPS fund and the only "dealing with" is to understand and execute the RMD requirement and associated tax reporting.
I may be missing something there. I was writing about TIPS auctions, and you responded about TIPS funds.
I am making the point that if you want DW not to have to deal with the asset then use bond funds instead of individual bonds. If a person thinks a certain process of management is or will be too much then you find something a person can deal with.

The ultimate "not have to deal with" investment would be a balanced fund such as Target Retirement or Life Strategy. You want very much to not have to tolerate that, but you are at a point where you have the money and have to take your choice.

There is another option in bonds, of course. That would be to simply abandon the asset entirely in exchange for an annuity paying back an income. That is not an uncommon choice sometimes, especially for a surviving spouse. If you have objections to that you then return to what basically amounts to you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Leaving all your wealth, except maybe a house, in VTWAX is an entirely possible choice assuming you and DW are prepared to deal with that. Huge volatility on a large store of wealth takes nerves of steel to hold as well as being prepared for things to end badly in the rare but extreme event. But again it is the your money, your choice thing. Personally I would and do find that more to deal with than having some stocks and some bonds in whatever configuration. What I don't do is think I need to deal with assets gaining something or losing something, with when the bond fund will or won't lose money, or whatever.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by z3r0c00l »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:14 pm
z3r0c00l wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:06 pm 1929-1959. Stocks can stay down for a whole retirement.
This is not a "why not 100% stocks" thread. I don't want 100% stocks. But I'm not sure I want BND either :oops:
Few like bonds, or something like bonds, but many need them.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by dbr »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:12 pm
dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:02 pm The I bond threads discussed various combinations of purchase amounts for one person, a couple, a person or a couple with trusts, whether or not gifting I bonds is helpful, and so on.
Yes, but I understood the gifting loophole as more of a way to try to time the I Bonds market, since you're still limited to 10K/yr you can buy or deliver combined. And starting a trust just to buy I bonds may indeed be an overkill.
dbr wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:02 pm But, indeed, if the option is not practical then maybe there are no bonds that are good for anything for you. You will have to build and store your wealth some other way.
I understand you are one of the bh resident bonds experts.

Do I have it correctly that your personal choice for the bonds portion of your portfolio is a TIPS fund (not nominals, and not individual TIPS)?
I think placing me as an expert would be overdone because I don't know any more about bonds than anyone else who can spend some time reading here, on the Wiki, in books, and as appropriate on line to look up some background on things.

But, yes, my fixed income is a TIPS fund, at some points in time an intermediate Treasury fund and an intermediate TIPS fund, on some occasions a little bit in a total bond fund, and then cash in a checking account. But seeing that TIPS fund returned -12% in 2022 is a non-issue for us. In 2011 the return was 12.8% and in 2020 it was 10.88% That is just the volatility of that particular investment as a long term holding. From 2007 to 2023 the CAGR was 0.61% real and the SD of annual returns was 5.8%. It is a fair statement that the return was poor because interest rates were poor, but that investment choice serves the purpose of diluting overall volatility of the portfolio. I don't want 100% stock risk.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by folkher0 »

Can’t talk you into bonds. I don’t like them either. I also hold i bonds and have access to TIAA traditional annuity in my retirement accounts which serves the “low volatility” or “low correlation” purpose for me that bonds presumably do for others.

Bonds are clearly NOT for safety. And if you need them to “go down less” then stocks, well they’ve performed miserably the last 2 years.

Also to those who say “just match duration to your horizon and you’re fine”….I still don’t know how to easily do that using bond funds. Is there a bond fund family that follows a glide path to a specific date? Like a target date fund duration matching bonds.
The only simple way to do it is to buy a bond ladder which can be a PIA.

In fact if you follow standard advice you would be buying more of a total market bond fund as you age which constantly rolls its bonds to a given duration, leaving a fund investor to have to constantly rebalance between long and short term funds to match duration.

No thanks.
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Re: Bonds - what are they good for?

Post by er999 »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:05 pm
er999 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:39 pm If I remember right you are fairly wealthy and a relatively early retiree. Individual tips held to maturity are a great way to provide an income floor extending out up to 30 years and now is a great time to buy. It’s worth the effort to learn about them. There aren’t promoted or publicized much (other than on here) since no one makes money recommending them.
I'm in my late 40ies (as of a few days ago:), DW a few years younger. Not yet ready to retire, and not sure how to think about future expenses yet.

TIPS auctions strike as a bit of a departure from the simplicity mantra that I embrace (our Vanguard IRAs are currently 100% VTWAX), and something that I would prefer DW didn't have to worry about.
I’m 47 and starting buying this year $15k in 30 year tips (auctioned twice a year in February and August, so $30k / year) and plan on doing so going forward as long as yields positive. I also bought $30k / year worth on the secondary market maturing 2049-2052 earlier this year. I might have bought earlier years but I have a fixed pension starting at 60 and planning on taking social
security at 79 so not as worried about inflation before then.

I was influenced by Bill Bernstein on this. See his article (he refers to your alter ego Spock as tips the rational system 2 investment)
https://www.advisorperspectives.com/art ... at-age-104

In some respects buying a 30 year bond is an idiotic investment since stocks should have a way higher return than bonds over 20 plus years. On the other hand bonds are more sensitive to inflation over 20 - 30 years. I believe that phrase certificate of confiscation comes from the high inflation of the 1970s for long term fixed income.

I feel similarly to you about bonds based on backtesting but tips seem like a good idea just in case. I have about 22% in fixed income, all tips, and that might rise to 30-40% over the next decade (with $300k in tips purchases planned on the next decade) depending on how the remaining stocks do. Hopefully I will regret it (since that means stocks do great) but putting 20-30% in tips for insurance for a terrible stock scenario over a decade while still leaving enough in stocks to get a big upside.
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