Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

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Topic Author
benevo
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:21 am

Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by benevo »

Update: Portfolio review posted here: viewtopic.php?p=7079913

Hi everyone,

Long story short: my spouse and I are looking for how to best invest/place our money, as most of it is in high-yield savings + our 401(k)s vs investing in mutual funds, ETFs, or anything else. Hoping this forum can help!

At the moment, we're between 3 options:
- Vanguard Personal Advisor Services
- Schwab Intelligent Portfolios Premium
- Hire an independent financial advisor (there's one we're currently working with; not super loving him, but he is $5,000 annually if we proceed [currently just doing a small project with him])

We are both younger and high earners. Here’s the breakdown:
- My age: 35
- My salary: $200k + bonus
- My bonus: 20% goal paid quarterly + additional RSUs annually
- Spouse's age: 40
- Spouse's salary: $175k
- Spouse's bonus: 10% goal paid annually

Accounts:
- My 401(k): $210,000
- Spouse’s 401(k): $107,000
- My roth IRA: $8,500
- My HSA: $4,000
- My RSUs current value (quarterly vesting over the next 3.5-4 years, first batch is in about 3 months): $300,000
- My ESPP: 15% of net take home; lookback period; 15% discount; able to sell quarterly.
- Our joint high-yield savings account (Amex): $125,000
- Our individual + joint checking/savings: $250,000

Real estate:
- New build from 2021, $705,000
- Loan balance: $560,000

Neither of us plan for our bonuses / use them for any budgeting purposes (same with my RSUs & ESPP), but rather as "unexpected" money when it comes in (and majority goes into savings, extra principal towards mortgage, etc.).

No kids (currently, and no kids planned). We have no other loans or debts; both our cars are paid off, both our student loans are paid off. We both will likely need a new car in the next 2-5 years (9 & 10 year old cars at the moment).

So, really just curious the best way to invest our money. We know we shouldn't be leaving that cash in just checking/savings vs investing, but also not comfortable enough picking specific funds or ETFs. Personally, I do like getting involved and learning and looking at the numbers, but wouldn't feel comfortable totally making all the decisions and managing everything without some advice. My spouse has much less interest. That's why I've been leaning towards the VPA or SIP options, but I've seen mixed reviews there. What do y'all think?

Happy to provide any additional details, whether helpful or if I am missing something stupid obvious to share.

Appreciate your thoughts!
-be
Last edited by benevo on Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
sailaway
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by sailaway »

Why not just use a target date fund?

How are your 401ks and IRAs invested?

Whatever course you end up on, it is probably worth your while to fill out the case study worksheet on the wiki, as any adviser will also need that information.
Topic Author
benevo
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:21 am

Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by benevo »

sailaway wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:28 pm Why not just use a target date fund?

How are your 401ks and IRAs invested?

Whatever course you end up on, it is probably worth your while to fill out the case study worksheet on the wiki, as any adviser will also need that information.
That may very well be all we need to do - I may be overthinking what is needed. All 401ks and IRAs are currently in Vanguard 2040 and 2045 funds. And thank you, will check that worksheet out!
Grt2bOutdoors
Posts: 25089
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Location: New York

Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

sailaway wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:28 pm Why not just use a target date fund?

How are your 401ks and IRAs invested?

Whatever course you end up on, it is probably worth your while to fill out the case study worksheet on the wiki, as any adviser will also need that information.
A target date fund in taxable is not advisable, case in point - Vanguard which had certain institutional investors change share classes leaving the tax burden on the shoulders of the individual investors which held those target date funds. Nope. Since the OP is willing to take a bit of an active role, depending on their asset allocation, a simple 3-4 fund portfolio of broad based index funds would fit the "bill" so to speak just without the $5K price tag to go along with it. Don't know much about Schwab, but I recollect they hold a hefty portion of your investments in cash. If the point is to be investing, then holding cash over the long term is not preferred.

OP - have you and spouse developed an Investment Policy Statement? View the boglehead wiki for examples, if you have not already and draft one up. Then comeback and tell us what your desired asset allocation is and we can set you on the path to either do it yourself (save 30bps) or go with Vanguard PAS. Paying $5K annually is too much unless you are getting a full financial plan including tax services, etc.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Wrench
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by Wrench »

Target date funds may not be the most efficient for taxable accounts. See:
https://www.morningstar.com/articles/10 ... s-surprise
You may wish to consider Vanguard tax managed capital appreciation fund, VTCLX, for your taxable savings.
https://investor.vanguard.com/investmen ... file/vtclx
Should allow for growth without too large a tax burden. Depending on your risk tolerance, you could even hold 100% VTSAX or equivalent.

Wrench
Topic Author
benevo
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by benevo »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:54 pm
sailaway wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:28 pm Why not just use a target date fund?

How are your 401ks and IRAs invested?

Whatever course you end up on, it is probably worth your while to fill out the case study worksheet on the wiki, as any adviser will also need that information.
A target date fund in taxable is not advisable, case in point - Vanguard which had certain institutional investors change share classes leaving the tax burden on the shoulders of the individual investors which held those target date funds. Nope. Since the OP is willing to take a bit of an active role, depending on their asset allocation, a simple 3-4 fund portfolio of broad based index funds would fit the "bill" so to speak just without the $5K price tag to go along with it. Don't know much about Schwab, but I recollect they hold a hefty portion of your investments in cash. If the point is to be investing, then holding cash over the long term is not preferred.

OP - have you and spouse developed an Investment Policy Statement? View the boglehead wiki for examples, if you have not already and draft one up. Then comeback and tell us what your desired asset allocation is and we can set you on the path to either do it yourself (save 30bps) or go with Vanguard PAS. Paying $5K annually is too much unless you are getting a full financial plan including tax services, etc.
Thanks for the response! We did put together our desired allocation a few months back: keep about ~70% stock, ~25% bond, ~5% cash (one reason the SIP was being considered, I know others feel less cash should be involved but always thought it was a smart security blanket).
novelbogle
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by novelbogle »

You should post in the suggested portfolio review format. If you do that, commenters can advise you on a low fee, tax-efficient allocation that fits your risk profile. It will be worth your effort.
"Exemplary persons cherish their excellence; petty persons cherish their land." - Analects 4.11.
Topic Author
benevo
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by benevo »

novelbogle wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:15 pm You should post in the suggested portfolio review format. If you do that, commenters can advise you on a low fee, tax-efficient allocation that fits your risk profile. It will be worth your effort.
Thank you; it’s been a while since I’ve been on here and completely forgot about that! I will do that. I presume it’d be best to start a new thread with that instead of replying with it here, is that a safe assumption?
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nedsaid
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by nedsaid »

benevo wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:24 pm Hi everyone,

Long story short: my spouse and I are looking for how to best invest/place our money, as most of it is in high-yield savings + our 401(k)s vs investing in mutual funds, ETFs, or anything else. Hoping this forum can help!

At the moment, we're between 3 options:
- Vanguard Personal Advisor Services
- Schwab Intelligent Portfolios Premium
- Hire an independent financial advisor (there's one we're currently working with; not super loving him, but he is $5,000 annually if we proceed [currently just doing a small project with him])

Schwab will charge $300 up front and $30 per month for unlimited access to a Certified Financial Planner and then they put you into their Intelligent Portfolio. On the surface, this looks the cheapest and perhaps the best. The drawback is that their portfolios tend to be cash heavy and fairly complex. The complexity is not a problem for tax deferred accounts as there would be very little to no cost for making changes. However, in a taxable account you might get a complex portfolio that would be harder to unwind if you later change your mind about having an Advisory service, the reason being potential capital gains taxes when you sell. On the other hand, I believe Schwab will manage for tax efficiency in your taxable account, ask them about this.

Vanguard will charge 0.30% Assets Under Management fee and of course the expense ratios of your index funds. Vanguard will get you into simpler portfolios, you won't have to be concerned about unwinding complicated portfolios later on. Vanguard's Client Relationship Summary form does say that some of their Advisors are Certified Financial Planners. What I would ask is how comprehensive their planning services are. Your all-in costs are less than 0.40% a year as long as you stick with Index funds. I certainly would consider them.

Local Advisors will be more expensive. You are looking at 1% a year, perhaps more, for Assets Under Management fee. You might be looking at 1.2% AUM plus the expense ratios of the ETFs and Mutual Funds used. There are a growing number of Advisors that offer something like a subscription service, which for larger clients, is a better deal than AUM. Is the $5,000 a flat fee? If so, I would expect 12-17 hours of work for that price, using a range of $300/hour to $450/hour to calculate this. If you get ongoing, comprehensive service from him, that might be worth the price. With a local Advisor, you are re likely to get more customized and personalized advice but it will cost you.

Keep in mind the upsell. Vanguard has available more expensive active funds available for their Advisory service, but I think clients have asked for them. They might offer you such funds. Schwab also has a wide range of Advisory services and you might at some point get a pitch for a higher price service. Sort of like being asked if you want fries with your order at the drive-up window.
A fool and his money are good for business.
Grt2bOutdoors
Posts: 25089
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
Location: New York

Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

benevo wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:11 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:54 pm
sailaway wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:28 pm Why not just use a target date fund?

How are your 401ks and IRAs invested?

Whatever course you end up on, it is probably worth your while to fill out the case study worksheet on the wiki, as any adviser will also need that information.
A target date fund in taxable is not advisable, case in point - Vanguard which had certain institutional investors change share classes leaving the tax burden on the shoulders of the individual investors which held those target date funds. Nope. Since the OP is willing to take a bit of an active role, depending on their asset allocation, a simple 3-4 fund portfolio of broad based index funds would fit the "bill" so to speak just without the $5K price tag to go along with it. Don't know much about Schwab, but I recollect they hold a hefty portion of your investments in cash. If the point is to be investing, then holding cash over the long term is not preferred.

OP - have you and spouse developed an Investment Policy Statement? View the boglehead wiki for examples, if you have not already and draft one up. Then comeback and tell us what your desired asset allocation is and we can set you on the path to either do it yourself (save 30bps) or go with Vanguard PAS. Paying $5K annually is too much unless you are getting a full financial plan including tax services, etc.
Thanks for the response! We did put together our desired allocation a few months back: keep about ~70% stock, ~25% bond, ~5% cash (one reason the SIP was being considered, I know others feel less cash should be involved but always thought it was a smart security blanket).
No issues with holding cash, SIP will hold alot more than 5% though which is why I don't like Schwab. Schwab earns 50% of their revenues from cash (as an FYI for anyone wanting to know why they hold cash).

If you want to hold 70% stock, well, that is substantially different in allocation from the target retirement funds you hold in your retirement accounts. The 2040 and 2045 funds are allocated - 81% and 86% stock respectively. As these funds will become progressively more conservative over time, you will need to revisit your holdings in the taxable accounts by either adding more or less to equities over time to keep that 70%/25%/5% allocation steady.

For now though, think about implementing an allocation like this:
Current portfolio - $317,000 of Target date 2040 and 2045 -
Equity - $263,000
Fixed Income - $54,000

New Proposed allocation: Leave $317K in Target date retirement funds. Allocate taxable checking of $250K as follows:

Equity $135,000 (what proportion do you want to hold in international funds, if any?) Funds to consider holding VTI - ETF or VTSAX if mutual fund
Fixed Income: $142,000 - depending on your tax bracket which puts you above 24% might consider an intermediate tax exempt fund, what state do you reside in? Do you pay state and local income taxes?
Cash: $28,000 - Vanguard Federal Money Market fund

Total equity: $397,000 - 70%
Total FI: $196,000 - 25%
Cash:$28,000 - 5%
Total 100%.

Each year you should revisit your holdings to ensure your allocations are not too different from what you want.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Topic Author
benevo
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:21 am

Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by benevo »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:50 pm
benevo wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:11 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:54 pm
sailaway wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:28 pm Why not just use a target date fund?

How are your 401ks and IRAs invested?

Whatever course you end up on, it is probably worth your while to fill out the case study worksheet on the wiki, as any adviser will also need that information.
A target date fund in taxable is not advisable, case in point - Vanguard which had certain institutional investors change share classes leaving the tax burden on the shoulders of the individual investors which held those target date funds. Nope. Since the OP is willing to take a bit of an active role, depending on their asset allocation, a simple 3-4 fund portfolio of broad based index funds would fit the "bill" so to speak just without the $5K price tag to go along with it. Don't know much about Schwab, but I recollect they hold a hefty portion of your investments in cash. If the point is to be investing, then holding cash over the long term is not preferred.

OP - have you and spouse developed an Investment Policy Statement? View the boglehead wiki for examples, if you have not already and draft one up. Then comeback and tell us what your desired asset allocation is and we can set you on the path to either do it yourself (save 30bps) or go with Vanguard PAS. Paying $5K annually is too much unless you are getting a full financial plan including tax services, etc.
Thanks for the response! We did put together our desired allocation a few months back: keep about ~70% stock, ~25% bond, ~5% cash (one reason the SIP was being considered, I know others feel less cash should be involved but always thought it was a smart security blanket).
No issues with holding cash, SIP will hold alot more than 5% though which is why I don't like Schwab. Schwab earns 50% of their revenues from cash (as an FYI for anyone wanting to know why they hold cash).

If you want to hold 70% stock, well, that is substantially different in allocation from the target retirement funds you hold in your retirement accounts. The 2040 and 2045 funds are allocated - 81% and 86% stock respectively. As these funds will become progressively more conservative over time, you will need to revisit your holdings in the taxable accounts by either adding more or less to equities over time to keep that 70%/25%/5% allocation steady.

For now though, think about implementing an allocation like this:
Current portfolio - $317,000 of Target date 2040 and 2045 -
Equity - $263,000
Fixed Income - $54,000

New Proposed allocation: Leave $317K in Target date retirement funds. Allocate taxable checking of $250K as follows:

Equity $135,000 (what proportion do you want to hold in international funds, if any?) Funds to consider holding VTI - ETF or VTSAX if mutual fund
Fixed Income: $142,000 - depending on your tax bracket which puts you above 24% might consider an intermediate tax exempt fund, what state do you reside in? Do you pay state and local income taxes?
Cash: $28,000 - Vanguard Federal Money Market fund

Total equity: $397,000 - 70%
Total FI: $196,000 - 25%
Cash:$28,000 - 5%
Total 100%.

Each year you should revisit your holdings to ensure your allocations are not too different from what you want.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! To your question: we are in NY and pay state tax
Grt2bOutdoors
Posts: 25089
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Location: New York

Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

benevo wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:03 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:50 pm
benevo wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:11 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:54 pm
sailaway wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:28 pm Why not just use a target date fund?

How are your 401ks and IRAs invested?

Whatever course you end up on, it is probably worth your while to fill out the case study worksheet on the wiki, as any adviser will also need that information.
A target date fund in taxable is not advisable, case in point - Vanguard which had certain institutional investors change share classes leaving the tax burden on the shoulders of the individual investors which held those target date funds. Nope. Since the OP is willing to take a bit of an active role, depending on their asset allocation, a simple 3-4 fund portfolio of broad based index funds would fit the "bill" so to speak just without the $5K price tag to go along with it. Don't know much about Schwab, but I recollect they hold a hefty portion of your investments in cash. If the point is to be investing, then holding cash over the long term is not preferred.

OP - have you and spouse developed an Investment Policy Statement? View the boglehead wiki for examples, if you have not already and draft one up. Then comeback and tell us what your desired asset allocation is and we can set you on the path to either do it yourself (save 30bps) or go with Vanguard PAS. Paying $5K annually is too much unless you are getting a full financial plan including tax services, etc.
Thanks for the response! We did put together our desired allocation a few months back: keep about ~70% stock, ~25% bond, ~5% cash (one reason the SIP was being considered, I know others feel less cash should be involved but always thought it was a smart security blanket).
No issues with holding cash, SIP will hold alot more than 5% though which is why I don't like Schwab. Schwab earns 50% of their revenues from cash (as an FYI for anyone wanting to know why they hold cash).

If you want to hold 70% stock, well, that is substantially different in allocation from the target retirement funds you hold in your retirement accounts. The 2040 and 2045 funds are allocated - 81% and 86% stock respectively. As these funds will become progressively more conservative over time, you will need to revisit your holdings in the taxable accounts by either adding more or less to equities over time to keep that 70%/25%/5% allocation steady.

For now though, think about implementing an allocation like this:
Current portfolio - $317,000 of Target date 2040 and 2045 -
Equity - $263,000
Fixed Income - $54,000

New Proposed allocation: Leave $317K in Target date retirement funds. Allocate taxable checking of $250K as follows:

Equity $135,000 (what proportion do you want to hold in international funds, if any?) Funds to consider holding VTI - ETF or VTSAX if mutual fund
Fixed Income: $142,000 - depending on your tax bracket which puts you above 24% might consider an intermediate tax exempt fund, what state do you reside in? Do you pay state and local income taxes?
Cash: $28,000 - Vanguard Federal Money Market fund

Total equity: $397,000 - 70%
Total FI: $196,000 - 25%
Cash:$28,000 - 5%
Total 100%.

Each year you should revisit your holdings to ensure your allocations are not too different from what you want.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! To your question: we are in NY and pay state tax
Depending on your risk tolerance, for bond funds in taxable you can consider holding either a national intermediate tax-exempt fund like VWIUX - Vanguard Interm-Term Tax Exempt, however a majority of the interest earned will be subject to NYS taxes but the duration of the fund is lower meaning less susceptible to NAV erosion (while you will recapture it in the form of a higher coupon when interest rates rise, you have to hold for the duration to benefit fully). The other alternative is the VNYUX - Vanguard NY Long Term Tax Exempt - a bit more riskier because the duration is longer at 7.8 years compared to close to 6 years for the national fund listed earlier and its also single state issuer (NYS) compared to many states for the other fund.

Total fund expenses for a setup like above might run you between .06%-.10%bps per year. That's roughly $150-250. Take the other $4,750 and enjoy the vacation the financial planner wanted to take for themselves! :)
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
tashnewbie
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by tashnewbie »

I agree that it'll be helpful to you (it'll force you to familiarize yourself more with your portfolio and available options) and forum members if you posted in the suggested portfolio review format found here: viewtopic.php?t=6212

I would just edit your original post in this thread to add that information so that all relevant information is in one place, which helps reviewers.

In general, I agree that you could easily use target date funds in the tax-advantaged accounts and then use tax-efficient US and international stock funds in taxable to get to your desired asset allocation. The only things you'd really need to do on an ongoing basis are keep adding money and determine how much to put in each of the funds in taxable which wouldn't take much time.

I don't have anything against VPAS (no familiarity with the Schwab roboadvisor), but what they will do for you isn't magical. They'll basically use low-cost Vanguard mutual funds to get to your desired asset allocation, using total US stock, total int'l stock, total US bond, and total int'l bond. You can easily do that yourself and save the costs of VPAS.
HomeStretch
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by HomeStretch »

With your income level and portfolio balance, you could easily manage your own taxes and investment management, if so inclined.

You will get the best feedback if you stop providing information in this thread and, as suggested by other posters, instead start a new thread with your complete financial picture in the “Asking Portfolio Questions” format linked by tashnewbie, above. You will get the best feedback that way. When you do post, you can add a link to your original post in this thread redirecting people to your new thread.
Topic Author
benevo
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:21 am

Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by benevo »

HomeStretch wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:08 am With your income level and portfolio balance, you could easily manage your own taxes and investment management, if so inclined.

You will get the best feedback if you stop providing information in this thread and, as suggested by other posters, instead start a new thread with your complete financial picture in the “Asking Portfolio Questions” format linked by tashnewbie, above. You will get the best feedback that way. When you do post, you can add a link to your original post in this thread redirecting people to your new thread.
tashnewbie and HomeStretch, thank you and my apologies for missing the format info. I have posted a new thread as some suggested: viewtopic.php?p=7079913

Thanks again!
tashnewbie
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Re: Couple (35 & 40) - where to put our money? VPA, SIP, using an independent advisor, or something else?

Post by tashnewbie »

benevo wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:31 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:08 am With your income level and portfolio balance, you could easily manage your own taxes and investment management, if so inclined.

You will get the best feedback if you stop providing information in this thread and, as suggested by other posters, instead start a new thread with your complete financial picture in the “Asking Portfolio Questions” format linked by tashnewbie, above. You will get the best feedback that way. When you do post, you can add a link to your original post in this thread redirecting people to your new thread.
tashnewbie and HomeStretch, thank you and my apologies for missing the format info. I have posted a new thread as some suggested: viewtopic.php?p=7079913

Thanks again!
No problem! I recommend posting a link to the other thread at the top of your original post in this thread. You can add something like, "Update: Portfolio Review posted [here - provide link]". That way people don't have to read this thread only to get towards the bottom and realize you posted a portfolio review in another thread.
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