bogle.tools/saving - tool to Prioritize Investments (per bogleheads wiki)

[Rob Relyea]

I've written a tool to help me, and others, help prioritize investment contributions: https://bogle.tools/saving

It is attempting to apply all the advice in Prioritizing investments (wiki)

I plan to evolve the tool based on feedback from potential users like you and from the experts on Prioritizing Investments.
I'll track bugs and feedback here: github.com/bogle-tools/site/issues

Screenshot of the tool's summary page showing advice based on data entered:


[Update: a few weeks later I added another tool to bogle.tools: bogle.tools/portfolio which helps creating a Portfolio Review post (forum thread about that tool).]

One planned improvement: I would like to make it easier for people to use the tool by pre-collecting different employer benefits (401k match, backdoor roth, etc...) - I mention that here: site#22. For now, if you don't work at Amazon or Microsoft, you'll need to look up your 401k matching and other benefits and enter it into the tool.

A privacy note that I just added to the About page:
- Privacy - None of the answers you fill out on this site get sent to my server. All calculations are done on your PC/Phone/Tablet.

(this new topic, telling you about my site, got preapproved by Advisory Board via LadyGeek)

[LadyGeek]

(this new topic, telling you about my site, got preapproved by Advisory Board via LadyGeek)

Rob Relyea has received Advisory Board permission to start a topic linking to his site. Otherwise, this is not permitted per our No Solicitation guidelines.

If anyone has a question on this, please PM me.

[retired@50]

About item #5 - it appears as though you're suggesting one can contribute $6,500 into BOTH an IRA and a Roth IRA.

You may want to specify that it's one OR the other, not both.

Regards,

[Rob Relyea]

About item #5 - it appears as though you're suggesting one can contribute $6,500 into BOTH an IRA and a Roth IRA.
You may want to specify that it's one OR the other, not both.

Yes, the picture I included in the first post showed both, but if you use the tool, you are asked to choose your tax filing status.

For each person, it lists a few options, tells you based on your data if an IRA would be tax deductible, and if Roth IRA is possible, given your income, etc...

Eligible for workplace retirement savings?

50 or older?

Choice of Contributions:
IRA: $6500 ($6500 Tax Deductible)
Roth IRA: $6500

I had chosen Married filing Jointly to create that picture...and had chosen IRA for the first person, and Roth IRA for the second.

Given that, would love to understand feedback on how the tool handles that section.

[LadyGeek]

First, I sent the OP a laundry list of suggested changes for the user interface.

On Section 5, the title should be "5: Employer Retirement Plans", as saying "Government Retirement Plans" would imply the user is a Federal employee with the Thrift Savings Plan.

The first paragraph has a broken link format for the eligibility limit. The link "below" at the end of that same paragraph is mangled.

The checkboxes should remove the question marks after the entry. "Eligible for workplace retirement savings" instead of "Eligible for workplace retirement savings?", for example.

Most of the sections state an Expected Return (8% on this page). I think that's misleading. It depends on your investments.

The high / medium / low income debt sections also give ranges for approximate returns. In context, users are thinking about debt, such as credit card rates. I recommend removal of Expected or approximate returns globally.

[Rob Relyea]

Thanks for the feedback LadyGeek!

On Section 5, the title should be "5: Employer Retirement Plans", as saying "Government Retirement Plans" would imply the user is a Federal employee with the Thrift Savings Plan.

I'm not sure of the best phrasing.
Right now:
step 2: Get the maximum match from an employer retirement plan (401k)
step 5: Government Retirement Funds (IRA/Roth)
step 6: Employer Retirement Funds (401k)
step 7: Mega Backdoor Roth (Post tax 401k -> Roth)

I don't like calling step 5 employer retirement plans...because they are not through the employer.
Open to feedback.

The first paragraph has a broken link format for the eligibility limit. The link "below" at the end of that same paragraph is mangled.

Tracking via this github issue (update: fixed on 1/1/2023)

The checkboxes should remove the question marks after the entry. "Eligible for workplace retirement savings" instead of "Eligible for workplace retirement savings?", for example.

Fixed via this code fix

Most of the sections state an Expected Return (8% on this page). I think that's misleading. It depends on your investments.

The tool uses much of the content from the prioritizing investments wiki page. Those percentages all come from the approximate after tax return in this part of that wiki page

The high / medium / low income debt sections also give ranges for approximate returns. In context, users are thinking about debt, such as credit card rates. I recommend removal of Expected or approximate returns globally.

I'm tracking this feedback to a comment in my debt snowball idea issue

[LadyGeek]

Most of the sections state an Expected Return (8% on this page). I think that's misleading. It depends on your investments.

The tool uses much of the content from the prioritizing investments wiki page. Those percentages all come from the approximate after tax return in this part of that wiki page

OK, that makes sense. In the context of only seeing your tool, it did not. You need format your pages to make it clear what's going on. Perhaps put "Expected Return" and the following text inside a single table?

Better, just copy the tables (with border and background formats) from the wiki. Users can then clearly see which step you are following and understand the context.

[Affable at 50]

The employee contribution limit for someone 50+ in 2023 should be $30,000, not $29,000, following the $7,500 catch up contributions.

The tool has a lot of potential and you’re off to great start.

[Rob Relyea]

The employee contribution limit for someone 50+ in 2023 should be $30,000, not $29,000, following the $7,500 catch up contributions.

Thanks. Fixed it with this fix.

The tool has a lot of potential and you’re off to great start.

Thanks. Appreciate the feedback!

[Rob Relyea]

The first paragraph has a broken link format for the eligibility limit. The link "below" at the end of that same paragraph is mangled.

Tracking via this github issue (update: fixed on 1/1/2023)

The “below” link problem helped me realize that the paragraph is missing from the wiki page about “Choosing between an employer retirement plan and an IRA”. So I added that content and got rid of the below link.

LadyGeek - Thanks for finding that link bug that hid the bigger problem!

[Rob Relyea]

Thanks for the feedback LadyGeek!

On Section 5, the title should be "5: Employer Retirement Plans", as saying "Government Retirement Plans" would imply the user is a Federal employee with the Thrift Savings Plan.

I'm not sure of the best phrasing.
Right now:
step 2: Get the maximum match from an employer retirement plan (401k)
step 5: Government Retirement Funds (IRA/Roth)
step 6: Employer Retirement Funds (401k)
step 7: Mega Backdoor Roth (Post tax 401k -> Roth)

I don't like calling step 5 employer retirement plans...because they are not through the employer.
Open to feedback.

Just did some major enhancements to step 5:

Now it is called IRA or Roth IRA, which I think LadyGeek will like better...as the naming confusion problem should be better now.

I've made it so that it no longer provides you a choice of IRA or Roth, but instead, it calculates your best choice. Here are three different examples of how income level changes the recommended IRA/Roth decision for this couple.

Example 1: Couple, with $100K AGI

2023 Adjusted Gross Income: $100,000

Person 1:
Yes - Eligible for workplace retirement savings
Yes - 50 or older
No - Has IRA with > $0

Recommended Option:
- Contribute to IRA: $7500 ($7500 Tax Deductible)
- then backdoor roth next day (IRA $ -> Roth $)

Person 2:
No - Eligible for workplace retirement savings
No - 50 or older
Yes - Has IRA with > $0

Recommended Option:
- Contribute to IRA: $6500 ($6500 Tax Deductible)
- if IRA balance was 0 before the contribution, could backdoor roth next day (IRA $ -> Roth $)

Example 2: Couple, with $150K AGI

2023 Adjusted Gross Income: $150,000

Person 1:
Yes - Eligible for workplace retirement savings
Yes - 50 or older
No - Has IRA with > $0

Recommended Option:
- Contribute to Roth IRA: $7500

Person 2:
No - Eligible for workplace retirement savings
No - 50 or older
Yes - Has IRA with > $0

Recommended Option:
- Contribute to IRA: $6500 ($6500 Tax Deductible)
- if IRA balance was 0 before the contribution, could backdoor roth next day (IRA $ -> Roth $)

Example 3: Couple, with $250K AGI

2023 Adjusted Gross Income: $250,000

Person 1:
Yes - Eligible for workplace retirement savings
Yes - 50 or older
No - Has IRA with > $0

Recommended Option:
- Contribute to IRA: $7500 ($0 Tax Deductible)
- then backdoor roth next day (IRA $ -> Roth $)

Person 2:
No - Eligible for workplace retirement savings
No - 50 or older
Yes - Has IRA with > $0

Recommended Option:
- Contribute to IRA: $6500 ($0 Tax Deductible)
- if IRA balance was 0 before the contribution, could backdoor roth next day (IRA $ -> Roth $)

Would love to have people try this at bogle.tools/saving/ira-or-roth-ira and give feedback on the automated advice.

[LadyGeek]

I strongly recommend removing advice regarding the Backdoor Roth recommended option - especially if you are suggesting to do it "the next day". Note the big orange warning box at the top of the wiki article. There are significant tax penalties if you do it wrong. I would instead just focus on saving.

Better, consolidate steps 5, 6, and 7 as shown in Prioritizing investments. The wording regarding backdoor Roth conversion and mega-backdoor Roth contributions is very clearly showing that this is done as an option after you've contributed to the plans.

[Rob Relyea]

I strongly recommend removing advice regarding the Backdoor Roth recommended option - especially if you are suggesting to do it "the next day".
Note the big orange warning box at the top of the wiki article. There are significant tax penalties if you do it wrong. I would instead just focus on saving.

I can change the advice, toning it down, etc.... Seems like for many people, doing the backdoor roth is preferable to not. Will dig into wiki's orange box, and listen to your and others feedback and adjust.

Better, consolidate steps 5, 6, and 7 as shown in Prioritizing investments. The wording regarding backdoor Roth conversion and mega-backdoor Roth contributions is very clearly showing that this is done as an option after you've contributed to the plans.

I'd like to understand how combining would work.

I've recorded similar advice here: https://github.com/bogle-tools/site/issues/26

I would combine "government retirement funds", "employer retirement funds", and "mega backdoor roth" into a single step called "retirement accounts". There are not enough differences between the three to warrant different steps in my opinion. It seems to be a holdover from the days when most 401k's had terrible investments and fees and IRAs were almost always better. In my experience that's not true nearly as much today, when many 401k's are better than IRAs. But this is a stylistic choice.

Conceptually, people need to fill out data for step 5, step 6 and step 7.
Sometimes it will make sense for them to do step 6 before step 5 (as step 5 details at the bottom of the page)

What other ordering considerations do people have.
How do they choose the order of those 3?

[BrownEyedGirl_27]

Thank you Rob and LadyGeek! Just tested out the tool and have saved my summary as a PDF. Cheers to a prosperous and happy New Year

[fingoals]

Thank you for sharing your saving priority tool. I don't understand why, when my employer's max. 401(k) match is $7,200, the tool says (emphasis mine): "contribution required to get maximum match: $7400". What is the reason for that $200 delta (unless it is an error)?

[Rob Relyea]

I strongly recommend removing advice regarding the Backdoor Roth recommended option - especially if you are suggesting to do it "the next day".
Note the big orange warning box at the top of the wiki article. There are significant tax penalties if you do it wrong. I would instead just focus on saving.

I can change the advice, toning it down, etc.... Seems like for many people, doing the backdoor roth is preferable to not. Will dig into wiki's orange box, and listen to your and others feedback and adjust.

Ok, made my first change based on your feedback. Now the savings tool says:

then carefully evaluate backdoor roth process and do if appropriate (IRA $ -> Roth $)

Happy to tweak/improve based on more feedback.

[hammockhiker]

On step 4 the HSA limit is $7,750 for family. I thought ours was more than $8,000. In fact, I KNOW it's more than $8,000 for 2022 and assume it's the same in 2023. Is that because we're both over 60 or am I dazed and confused?

[Rob Relyea]

On step 4 the HSA limit is $7,750 for family. I thought ours was more than $8,000. In fact, I KNOW it's more than $8,000 for 2022 and assume it's the same in 2023. Is that because we're both over 60 or am I dazed and confused?

Great catch. Thanks!

Looking at the HSA data I use from my financial-variables repo:

Code: Select all

    "HSA" : {
        "ContributionLimit" : {
            "Family" : 7750,
            "SelfOnly" : 3850,
            "CatchUp" : 1000
        },
        "CatchUpAge" : 55
    },

I know the right data...I just wasn't using it.

Please try it now, just added support for a new "Over 55" checkbox on the hsa saving page: bogle.tools/saving/hsa. I'm not sure exactly how it works if only one person has the HSA...should both people be able to do a catchup? Do they need two HSAs then? Would love some guidance.

[LadyGeek]

I should be clear that my feedback comments are based on -

- Aligning with the wiki article Prioritizing investments - which is the focus of your tool.

Since you are using it as a baseline, it's much easier for users to follow your tool if they can match what they're doing vs. where they are in the wiki article.

- Using caution when giving advice. The backdoor (mega-backdoor) Roths are a prime example of something that sounds great in theory, but can be very dangerous in practice. We have a ton of threads from members who did this wrong and is why we stress caution in the wiki.

You need to draw a line between "easy" and "hard / dangerous" investing advice. Contributing to a 401(k) is easy to do. Understanding pro-rata rules when doing a Roth IRA conversion is hard. (If readers don't understand that a Roth IRA conversion is not the same as a backdoor Roth, then please stop and ask for help.)

This is why it's a challenge to write wiki articles and is why we often ask for forum consensus. Your tool has a similar challenge from that aspect.

[Rob Relyea]

On step 4 the HSA limit is $7,750 for family. I thought ours was more than $8,000. In fact, I KNOW it's more than $8,000 for 2022 and assume it's the same in 2023. Is that because we're both over 60 or am I dazed and confused?

...

Please try it now, just added support for a new "Over 55" checkbox on the hsa saving page: bogle.tools/saving/hsa. I'm not sure exactly how it works if only one person has the HSA...should both people be able to do a catchup? Do they need two HSAs then? Would love some guidance.

I've made it so that both people can declare a catch up, and as long as one of them has an HSA, it allows $1,000 for the other person too. So I think this is close to well-done.

Please keep the feedback coming as you try it out.

Update:
- Realize I posted about the fix before I published the fix. Now is published for real: bogle.tools/saving/hsa
- Related forum thread about 2 hsa catchups: viewtopic.php?t=359925

[Rob Relyea]

Thank you for sharing your saving priority tool.

Very happy to build it to try to simplify saving!
Even though I was pretty financially educated, and reading lots of boglehead stuff, it took me a few years before I realized I could also be putting away IRA/Roth IRA in addition to my 401k and other things. It is all too confusing, even for financially literate people.

I don't understand why, when my employer's max. 401(k) match is $7,200, the tool says (emphasis mine): "contribution required to get maximum match: $7400". What is the reason for that $200 delta (unless it is an error)?

Yes, there appears to be a bug here. I filed an issue at github here tracking this problem: https://github.com/bogle-tools/site/issues/33
Will try to fix soon.

Thanks for catching the problem!

[fingoals]

Thank you for sharing your saving priority tool.

Very happy to build it to try to simplify saving!
Even though I was pretty financially educated, and reading lots of boglehead stuff, it took me a few years before I realized I could also be putting away IRA/Roth IRA in addition to my 401k and other things. It is all too confusing, even for financially literate people.

I don't understand why, when my employer's max. 401(k) match is $7,200, the tool says (emphasis mine): "contribution required to get maximum match: $7400". What is the reason for that $200 delta (unless it is an error)?

Yes, there appears to be a bug here. I filed an issue at github here tracking this problem: https://github.com/bogle-tools/site/issues/33
Will try to fix soon.

Thanks for catching the problem!

Sounds good. You are very welcome! Happy to help.

[hammockhiker]

Great catch. Thanks!

Looking at the HSA data I use from my financial-variables repo:

Code: Select all

    "HSA" : {
        "ContributionLimit" : {
            "Family" : 7750,
            "SelfOnly" : 3850,
            "CatchUp" : 1000
        },
        "CatchUpAge" : 55
    },

I know the right data...I just wasn't using it.

Please try it now, just added support for a new "Over 55" checkbox on the hsa saving page: bogle.tools/saving/hsa. I'm not sure exactly how it works if only one person has the HSA...should both people be able to do a catchup? Do they need two HSAs then? Would love some guidance.

Dang, you're quick on the updates! Thanks.

I don't know the answer to the two HSAs question. We have the HSA at my wife's employer because she gets a partial match there. We rely on the HSA limits that her HR department communicates. I haven't got a clue whether we could have set up another one for me personally or not, but I would assume since hers is classified as family, that we're limited to one per family and thus one catchup amount. But I could easily be wrong.

[Rob Relyea]

I don't understand why, when my employer's max. 401(k) match is $7,200, the tool says (emphasis mine): "contribution required to get maximum match: $7400". What is the reason for that $200 delta (unless it is an error)?

Yes, there appears to be a bug here. I filed an issue at github here tracking this problem: https://github.com/bogle-tools/site/issues/33
Will try to fix soon.

Thanks for catching the problem!

Fixed the problem applying MaxMatch that you found, I believe. Please let me know if you see any other problems, or if you have other suggestions!

Please try it out: https://bogle.tools/saving/retirement-funds-match

[fyre4ce]

I'll add a comment here I provided to OP over PM. I suggest lumping IRAs, 401k/403b's, and mega backdoor Roth into a single step. In my opinion it's much cleaner and simpler to consider all these options together. Many "investment priority" guides put IRAs before workplace plans, and I believe this is a holdover from several decades ago when most 401k's were lousy and had 1%+ fees. Nowadays, my experience is that most 401k's are on par with or better than IRAs, plus can have other benefits like not interfering with backdoor Roth IRAs. (A comparison between IRAs and 401k's is here; there is no general winner.) In fact, the typical Boglehead case is someone with mid or mid-high income (phasing them out of deductible IRA contributions), and no pension but access to a decent 401k with index funds, who should prefer traditional contributions into their 401k before a Roth/backdoor Roth IRA.

I suggested this change the last time the wiki page was updated, but did not get much traction. But especially here with making a tool, I think it makes sense to combine them. The single "retirement account" page will have one or two IRAs (depending if single/married), and as many retirement plans as the individual or couple has access to. Each retirement plan can have checkboxes that enable features like Roth contributions and mega backdoor Roth capability, then the user can enter their limits into each. The tool should prioritize "regular" contributions over mega backdoor Roth though, because there is no good reason to do MBR before regular contributions. I guess ultimately it's the OP's decision how he wants to do it.

[Rob Relyea]

I'll add a comment here I provided to OP over PM. I suggest lumping IRAs, 401k/403b's, and mega backdoor Roth into a single step. In my opinion it's much cleaner and simpler to consider all these options together. Many "investment priority" guides put IRAs before workplace plans, and I believe this is a holdover from several decades ago when most 401k's were lousy and had 1%+ fees. Nowadays, my experience is that most 401k's are on par with or better than IRAs, plus can have other benefits like not interfering with backdoor Roth IRAs. (A comparison between IRAs and 401k's is here; there is no general winner.) In fact, the typical Boglehead case is someone with mid or mid-high income (phasing them out of deductible IRA contributions), and no pension but access to a decent 401k with index funds, who should prefer traditional contributions into their 401k before a Roth/backdoor Roth IRA.

I suggested this change the last time the wiki page was updated, but did not get much traction. But especially here with making a tool, I think it makes sense to combine them. The single "retirement account" page will have one or two IRAs (depending if single/married), and as many retirement plans as the individual or couple has access to. Each retirement plan can have checkboxes that enable features like Roth contributions and mega backdoor Roth capability, then the user can enter their limits into each. The tool should prioritize "regular" contributions over mega backdoor Roth though, because there is no good reason to do MBR before regular contributions. I guess ultimately it's the OP's decision how he wants to do it.

Appreciate the suggestion! I'm tracking this feedback here: https://github.com/bogle-tools/site/issues/26

Definitely interested in feedback here...and likely the discussion should be taken up again in the wiki discussion, not just this tool.

This morning, I did just make both IRA/Roth and Employer Retirements step 5. And the details section in both of them have a paragraph about choosing the order.

[Rob Relyea]

Please keep the feedback and bug reports coming!

How could the bogle.tools/saving tool be made easier and more useful to you?

[Rob Relyea]

Just pushed out a new version:
- blue buttons on bogle.tools/saving page have shrunk, and other small tweaks.
- new early preview of bogle.tools/portfolio - which is meant to help people compose Portfolio Review posts. (still very early)
- reworked navmenu left panel (if desktop/tablet browser) to no longer show each step. Now just show the different sections of bogle.tools. (on a phone you see this navmenu in the hamburger menu (three lines)).
- bogle.tools home page now links to "Annual Saving", "bogleheads.org search", and "3Fund Performance"

Thanks. Got some feedback via PM today.

[Rob Relyea]

Since I last posted, I built a new Portfolio Review section for bogle.tools that helps people compose Portfolio Review posts.
Since Portfolio Review has a "Contributions" section that mirrors all of the Prioritizing Investments, both /portfolio and /saving attempt to work together seemlessly (only enter data once).

Just deployed some good changes to /saving:
- savings: revamped summary page based on portfolio Contributions text format. (big change)
- savings: calculate planned savings based on annual income - taxes - monthlyExpenses x 12 + additionalMoneyFromTaxableAccount (still need to visualize in step context better)
- savings: fifty or older, and fifty-five or older, are no longer checkboxes...as we just calculate it now from the ages we now ask for, like portfolio section did.
- default person identifier to 'person 1' and 'person 2'
- reordered Head of Household to bottom of Tax Filing Status listboxes.

Thanks for your feedback that is helping me make changes that impact the usefulness of the tools!
-Rob

[Rob Relyea]

Big changes to bogle.tools/saving now deployed. Please let me know what you think of it...


New Feature: Drawing a line in Prioritized Investments based on Planned Saving amount

Got this feedback a while ago:

I would organize the tool as budget-centric. User enters in their gross income, expenses, and taxes, and the tool then calculates available cashflow to be put toward priorities. Then, the cash flow cascades down the priorities like a waterfall. Your "saving summary" front page should basically be a budget, with income, expenses, and taxes at the top, and all remaining allocations to the categories shown below.

I've done something similar. Tool calculates Planned Savings. You can increase the planned savings by taking money from "taxable".

Here is the text version of that "savings line":

Contributions:
Planned savings: $38,500

Prioritized Investments:
$2,000 in Emergency Fund
$22,500 in 401k (Match: $11,250)
$5,250 in HSA (Employer: $2,500)
$7,500 (nondeductible), then backdoor roth
$7,500 in 401k
-------
Planned savings exceeded after $1,250 towards previous step
-------
$32,250 in mega backdoor roth
$0 in Taxable

New Feature: Benefit Entry for your employers

When a person has an employer, I will look for that employer's benefits on github.com...so far I only have Microsoft posted.
I've added a new step 0 for savings, called benefit entry...and eventually, I will make it easy for you to share an employer's benefits, which I plan to share with others, to simplify the common usage.

...Also, did a bunch of work to enable saving your data for you...but haven't finished that work yet.

[LadyGeek]

Please remove the feature. https://bogle.tools/saving/benefit-entry

- Never, ever depend on employer plan information you find on the internet. Plans change and they can vary by work location (mine did). The only resource a user should trust is the plan they got directly from the employer. If someone doesn't understand the plan, they should contact HR.

- For security reasons, we strongly do not recommend providing your employer information in a forum post. For stocks, all you need to say is "company stock". That's all we need to know.

Additionally, you'll have to update every plan when it changes. You won't find that on the internet.

---------------
HSAs can only be used if the company has a High deductible health plan. The entry "Offers high deductible health plan" is confusing from that perspective.

When a person has an employer, I will look for that employer's benefits on github.com...so far I only have Microsoft posted.

Out of curiosity, where is this info on GitHub?

[Rob Relyea]

Please remove the feature. https://bogle.tools/saving/benefit-entry
- Never, ever depend on employer plan information you find on the internet. Plans change and they can vary by work location (mine did). The only resource a user should trust is the plan they got directly from the employer. If someone doesn't understand the plan, they should contact HR.
Additionally, you'll have to update every plan when it changes. You won't find that on the internet.

Understand your concern. I plan to curate the submitted benefit info. If I realize that it is less helpful than I hope, I will adapt. Stay tuned.

When a person has an employer, I will look for that employer's benefits on github.com...so far I only have Microsoft posted.

Out of curiosity, where is this info on GitHub?

Here is an example for one company this year on the bogle-tools/financial-variables github repo:

• usa/employers/microsoft/microsoft.retirement.2023.json

HSAs can only be used if the company has a High deductible health plan. The entry "Offers high deductible health plan" is confusing from that perspective.

Will review wording and continue to adapt for clarity.

[LadyGeek]

Understand your concern. I plan to curate the submitted benefit info. If I realize that it is less helpful than I hope, I will adapt. Stay tuned.

Not an employer plan, but I randomly checked a JSON file. In irs.irmaa-rates.2023.json:

Your JSON file is showing a date of 12/06/2022:

Code: Select all

        { 
            "date" : "2022-12-06",
            "title" : "IRS: HI 01101.020 IRMAA Sliding Scale Tables (2019-2022)",
            "url" : "https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0601101020"
        }

The IRS source is SSA - POMS: HI 01101.020 - IRMAA Sliding Scale Tables - 12/30/2022 - which is later than what you are using.

You'll need to display the date of the source, but it may mislead users into thinking that what you have is current. This is why I recommend that populating external data yourself is beyond what your tool should do. Updates and accuracy are a concern. Are you scraping those sites or using manual entry?

[Rob Relyea]

Understand your concern. I plan to curate the submitted benefit info. If I realize that it is less helpful than I hope, I will adapt. Stay tuned.

Not an employer plan, but I randomly checked a JSON file. In irs.irmaa-rates.2023.json:

Your JSON file is showing a date of 12/06/2022:

Code: Select all

        { 
            "date" : "2022-12-06",
            "title" : "IRS: HI 01101.020 IRMAA Sliding Scale Tables (2019-2022)",
            "url" : "https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0601101020"
        }

The IRS source is SSA - POMS: HI 01101.020 - IRMAA Sliding Scale Tables - 12/30/2022 - which is later than what you are using.

You'll need to display the date of the source, but it may mislead users into thinking that what you have is current. This is why I recommend that populating external data yourself is beyond what your tool should do. Updates and accuracy are a concern. Are you scraping those sites or using manual entry?

Please see my reply in the financial-variables thread

[LadyGeek]

Thanks! I missed that thread. See my reply here.

[Rob Relyea]

With a goal of providing a few short posts about the different features of bogle.tools site, I've just added links to the new bogletools.substack.com. You'll be able to read posts and/or subscribe to future posts.

I'm working on a description, including a walkthrough, of the Annual Savings tool now.

[psriniva]

I've written a tool to help me, and others, help prioritize investment contributions: https://bogle.tools/saving

It is attempting to apply all the advice in Prioritizing investments (wiki)

I plan to evolve the tool based on feedback from potential users like you and from the experts on Prioritizing Investments.
I'll track bugs and feedback here: github.com/bogle-tools/site/issues

Screenshot of the tool's summary page showing advice based on data entered:


[Update: a few weeks later I added another tool to bogle.tools: bogle.tools/portfolio which helps creating a Portfolio Review post (forum thread about that tool).]

One planned improvement: I would like to make it easier for people to use the tool by pre-collecting different employer benefits (401k match, backdoor roth, etc...) - I mention that here: site#22. For now, if you don't work at Amazon or Microsoft, you'll need to look up your 401k matching and other benefits and enter it into the tool.

A privacy note that I just added to the About page:
- Privacy - None of the answers you fill out on this site get sent to my server. All calculations are done on your PC/Phone/Tablet.

(this new topic, telling you about my site, got preapproved by Advisory Board via LadyGeek)

Hi Rob,
What software tools do you need to know to implement a tool like this.
I am curious because, I am approaching retirement age and I want to be able to contribute productively to a few organizations that I have been planning to help.
Thanks in advance.
Paddy

[Rob Relyea]

Hi Rob,
What software tools do you need to know to implement a tool like this.
I am curious because, I am approaching retirement age and I want to be able to contribute productively to a few organizations that I have been planning to help.
Thanks in advance.
Paddy

Hi psriniva-
Web sites could be built with many different technologies...

A month or two ago, I chose Microsoft's Blazor to build bogle.tools.
In early 2022, I built the 3fund performance tool and CovidSafe.fyi using React (Facebook built that framework, I believe).

(Got mentioned a couple times in NYTimes in 2022 for my CovidSafe.fyi work)

Both Blazor and React are nice because they allow you to build Single Page Web App's that execute on the user's device, not on the server. So costs can be kept low for hosting. (I host CovidSafe.fyi and Bogle.Tools on Microsoft Azure as a Static Web App. I host the current 3fund performance tool on github pages)

Over time, I hope to do some posts/videos about the technology behind the sites that I have built...fun to share the details!
Thanks, Rob

[psriniva]

Hi psriniva-
Web sites could be built with many different technologies...

A month or two ago, I chose Microsoft's Blazor to build bogle.tools.
In early 2022, I built the 3fund performance tool and CovidSafe.fyi using React (Facebook built that framework, I believe).

(Got mentioned a couple times in NYTimes in 2022 for my CovidSafe.fyi work)

Both Blazor and React are nice because they allow you to build Single Page Web App's that execute on the user's device, not on the server. So costs can be kept low for hosting. (I host CovidSafe.fyi and Bogle.Tools on Microsoft Azure as a Static Web App. I host the current 3fund performance tool on github pages)

Over time, I hope to do some posts/videos about the technology behind the sites that I have built...fun to share the details!
Thanks, Rob

Thank you so much Rob.
I will check out Blazor.
Also, looking forward to your videos.
Regards
Paddy

[Rob Relyea]

2 things...

One planned improvement: I would like to make it easier for people to use the tool by pre-collecting different employer benefits (401k match, backdoor roth, etc...) - I mention that here: issue#22. For now, if you don't work at Amazon or Microsoft, you'll need to look up your 401k matching and other benefits and enter it into the tool.

I've added this feature I mentioned in the initial post. If you'd like to help me try this out and know the details of your employers 401k matching, mega backdoor, and HSAs, please go to the Employer Benefits Entry page and follow the instructions to create and then email me an employee benefits file (or you could PM me the contents of the file here on the forum)

... and I've updated the screenshot in the first post of this thread.

[Rob Relyea]

Thanks for contributions. Now have Microsoft, Walmart, Amazon, and Boeing 2023 Retirement Benefits.

Microsoft data file: https://github.com/bogle-tools/financia ... .2023.json
Walmart data file: https://github.com/bogle-tools/financia ... .2023.json
Amazon data file: https://github.com/bogle-tools/financia ... .2023.json
Boeing data file: https://github.com/bogle-tools/financia ... .2023.json

Try them out at bogle.tools/saving or contribute your large U.S. company benefit info via bogle.tools/saving/benefit-entry

[Rob Relyea]

Learned more about HSA...and improved how HSAs are handled in bogle.tools/saving

I don't know the answer to the two HSAs question. We have the HSA at my wife's employer because she gets a partial match there. We rely on the HSA limits that her HR department communicates. I haven't got a clue whether we could have set up another one for me personally or not, but I would assume since hers is classified as family, that we're limited to one per family and thus one catchup amount. But I could easily be wrong.

The person who qualifies for a catchup has to put it in their HSA, I believe. They become eligible to open one, for just the catch up, as long as their partner has an HSA.

HSAs can only be used if the company has a High deductible health plan. The entry "Offers high deductible health plan" is confusing from that perspective.

I've tried to clean that up a bit...supporting whether the employer offers HDHP or not, etc...
Also allowing a non-employer based HDHP to be chosen, etc...


Please let me know if people see any problems in the HSA area.

[Rob Relyea]

I'd love feedback on how bogle.tools/saving (also used by bogle.tools/portfolio) recommends what type of IRA to get.

I bring this up, because my college aged son was told by the tool, to put up to his income into an IRA and then backdoor it to a Roth.
I would have thought, it should have told him to just do a Roth IRA directly.

Did the tool recommend it correctly? Or should I change the code?
Is there any advantage to have people do an IRA and then backdoor it into a Roth, if there income is very low -- college student like?

Data About Situation
Let's pretend he earned $4,000 in 2022.
Let's pretend his plus my contributions for IRA or Roth could total $4,000 before taxes are due for 2022 (4/18/2023).
Should he contribute directly to Roth?
Or should he contribute to IRA and then backdoor it into his Roth?

My Guess:
I am now guessing that if somebody can do a Roth contribution, they should prefer Roth over IRAThenBackdoor.

Here is the current code in Person.cs L102 that determines the IRA Type to Recommend...

Code: Select all

    public IRAType IRATypeRecommendation { 
        get
        {
            if (this.IRA.DeductionAllowed > 0) {
                if (!this.IRA.HasExistingBalance) {
                    return IRAType.DeductibleIRAThenBackdoorRoth;
                } else {
                    return IRAType.DeductibleIRA;
                }
            } else if (this.RothIRA.AmountToSave > 0) {
                    return IRAType.Roth;
            } else {
                if (!this.IRA.HasExistingBalance) {
                    return IRAType.NondeductibleIRAThenBackdoorRoth;
                } else {
                    return IRAType.NondeductibleIRA;
                }
            }
        }
    }

Thanks, Rob

[FiveK]

I'd love feedback on how bogle.tools/saving (also used by bogle.tools/portfolio) recommends what type of IRA to get.

If only this were non-controversial.
Perhaps refer people to Traditional versus Roth - Bogleheads when it comes to that choice.

I bring this up, because my college aged son was told by the tool, to put up to his income into an IRA and then backdoor it to a Roth.
I would have thought, it should have told him to just do a Roth IRA directly.

Yes, it should.

Is there any advantage to have people do an IRA and then backdoor it into a Roth, if there income is very low -- college student like?

No.
But for those over or even close to the Roth contribution limit, and without significant (up to the user to define) non-Roth IRA balances, just using the backdoor process is a good idea. That avoids the need to recharacterize if they make a direct contribution and later find that their AGI is too high.

Data About Situation
Let's pretend he earned $4,000 in 2022.
Let's pretend his plus my contributions for IRA or Roth could total $4,000 before taxes are due for 2022 (4/18/2023).
Should he contribute directly to Roth? Yes
Or should he contribute to IRA and then backdoor it into his Roth? No

My Guess:
I am now guessing that if somebody can do a Roth contribution, they should prefer Roth over IRAThenBackdoor.

Yes, subject to the "might or might not be over the Roth contribution AGI limit" scenario above.

[Rob Relyea]

Thanks FiveK!

I bring this up, because my college aged son was told by the tool, to put up to his income into an IRA and then backdoor it to a Roth.
I would have thought, it should have told him to just do a Roth IRA directly.

Yes, it should.

I've changed bogle.tools/saving to recommend Roth before a deductible IRA.

Is there any advantage to have people do an IRA and then backdoor it into a Roth, if there income is very low -- college student like?

No.
But for those over or even close to the Roth contribution limit, and without significant (up to the user to define) non-Roth IRA balances, just using the backdoor process is a good idea. That avoids the need to recharacterize if they make a direct contribution and later find that their AGI is too high.

I've opened an issue tracking future improvement: handle roth advice better as you get close to limit #76

[FiveK]

I've changed bogle.tools/saving to recommend Roth before a deductible IRA.

That should depend on current vs. expected marginal tax rates, and the AGI vs. IRA deductibility limit. E.g., those in their 50s with neither an expected pension nor a sizeable traditional balance, and able to deduct contributions, might be better off using traditional accounts instead of Roth.

[Rob Relyea]

I've changed bogle.tools/saving to recommend Roth before a deductible IRA.

That should depend on current vs. expected marginal tax rates, and the AGI vs. IRA deductibility limit. E.g., those in their 50s with neither an expected pension nor a sizeable traditional balance, and able to deduct contributions, might be better off using traditional accounts instead of Roth.

On its IRA/Roth IRA page (bogle.tools/saving/ira-or-roth-ira), it currently shows all the content for that step from Prioritizing investments wiki.

Does that wiki content cover these choices appropriately?

I'd like to make sure I have the best default. And then I want to collect info for most common situations...to give good advice.

[FiveK]

I've changed bogle.tools/saving to recommend Roth before a deductible IRA.

That should depend on current vs. expected marginal tax rates, and the AGI vs. IRA deductibility limit. E.g., those in their 50s with neither an expected pension nor a sizeable traditional balance, and able to deduct contributions, might be better off using traditional accounts instead of Roth.

On its IRA/Roth IRA page (bogle.tools/saving/ira-or-roth-ira), it currently shows all the content for that step from Prioritizing investments wiki.

Does that wiki content cover these choices appropriately?

Yes, when it says "Contribute the maximum to an IRA, traditional or Roth (or backdoor Roth technique), depending on eligibility and personal circumstances."

It is those personal circumstances that should affect any default suggestion. E.g., someone just starting a career that is statistically likely to provide significantly above inflation annual income increases should be given a different default than someone late in a career with plateaued income and not much in retirement savings. Both those situations could be considered as target audiences for Bogleheads.

[Rob Relyea]

Does that wiki content cover these choices appropriately?

Yes, when it says "Contribute the maximum to an IRA, traditional or Roth (or backdoor Roth technique), depending on eligibility and personal circumstances."

It is those personal circumstances that should affect any default suggestion. E.g., someone just starting a career that is statistically likely to provide significantly above inflation annual income increases should be given a different default than someone late in a career with plateaued income and not much in retirement savings. Both those situations could be considered as target audiences for Bogleheads.

Given this example:

those in their 50s with neither an expected pension nor a sizeable traditional balance, and able to deduct contributions, might be better off using traditional accounts instead of Roth.

Given the data the Savings tool currently asks for, it is easy for me to understand if somebody is in their 50s or not, and whether they can deduct contributions.

But currently, I don't ask anything about their expected pension...or about their traditional balance.
(The data entered into the portfolio review tool does figure out traditional balance).

A few options:
1) do nothing different than now
2) if in their 50s and if they can deduct IRA contributions, I could point them towards more info:
"[since you are over 50, and can deduct IRA contributions, you should choose IRA, instead of Roth IRA, unless you expect a pension or have a sizeable traditional (non-Roth) balance]" (would be good to know what sizeable is...)
3) when that condition happens, I could ask them if they have a pension, and what their 401k/IRA balance is....
4) when that condition happens, I could recommend they use bogle.tools/portfolio which asks them for retirement-asset details...i could also add a question about pension.
5) other...

Would love opinions.

[FiveK]

Does that wiki content cover these choices appropriately?

Yes, when it says "Contribute the maximum to an IRA, traditional or Roth (or backdoor Roth technique), depending on eligibility and personal circumstances."

It is those personal circumstances that should affect any default suggestion. E.g., someone just starting a career that is statistically likely to provide significantly above inflation annual income increases should be given a different default than someone late in a career with plateaued income and not much in retirement savings. Both those situations could be considered as target audiences for Bogleheads.

Given this example:

those in their 50s with neither an expected pension nor a sizeable traditional balance, and able to deduct contributions, might be better off using traditional accounts instead of Roth.

Given the data the Savings tool currently asks for, it is easy for me to understand if somebody is in their 50s or not, and whether they can deduct contributions.

But currently, I don't ask anything about their expected pension...or about their traditional balance.
(The data entered into the portfolio review tool does figure out traditional balance).

A few options:
1) do nothing different than now
2) if in their 50s and if they can deduct IRA contributions, I could point them towards more info:
"[since you are over 50, and can deduct IRA contributions, you should choose IRA, instead of Roth IRA, unless you expect a pension or have a sizeable traditional (non-Roth) balance]" (would be good to know what sizeable is...)
3) when that condition happens, I could ask them if they have a pension, and what their 401k/IRA balance is....
4) when that condition happens, I could recommend they use bogle.tools/portfolio which asks them for retirement-asset details...i could also add a question about pension.
5) other...

Would love opinions.

Things get speculative very quickly. E.g., even using a Simple method to estimate future income (let alone estimating the marginal tax rate that income will incur), different defensible sets of parameter estimates can lead to significantly different conclusions.

Speaking of the "over 50 and just starting" scenario, Old and Started in a Big Hole is just one example from today. That person is "forced" to go with a Roth IRA due to current income vs. the tIRA deduction limit, but at a lower income a traditional IRA would probably be best.

Fortunately the choice of traditional vs. Roth isn't as important as whether to invest or not. If this tool can help people choose to invest at all, that will be more helpful than a t vs. R suggestion.