Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Topic Author
jdkoerner
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:12 pm

Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by jdkoerner »

Meaning better than I receive here. Also, how much do they cost?
livesoft
Posts: 81604
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by livesoft »

I don't know, but I do read from time to time that one cannot get a timely return phone call from a Vanguard advisor. So if one is expecting timeliness, then I think this forum does better on that score.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
retired@50
Posts: 9500
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:36 pm
Location: Living in the U.S.A.

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by retired@50 »

jdkoerner wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:33 pm Meaning better than I receive here. Also, how much do they cost?
Are Vanguard advisers a sound choice? Yes.

Is it better than you receive here? It depends on who responds to your thread / questions.

Vanguard personal adviser services charges 0.30% for accounts under $5 million. The percentage drops for larger amounts.

They also offer a digital adviser - no adviser interaction - for 0.20%.

You'll typically be guided toward a 4-fund portfolio including US and International stocks and bonds. VTI, VXUS, BND, BNDX.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
eboats
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:47 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by eboats »

I met with a Vanguard advisor and they recommended a simple 4 fund portfolio. I just decided if it was that simple, I'd manage it myself and not pay their 0.30% fee. It didn't sound like they'd be doing much else for their fee other than maybe rebalancing once or twice a year and figured I could do that myself. I'd be curious if they provide any real value ( other than pep talks ) that I'm missing?
JasonHutt
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:47 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by JasonHutt »

eboats wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:05 pm I met with a Vanguard advisor and they recommended a simple 4 fund portfolio. I just decided if it was that simple, I'd manage it myself and not pay their 0.30% fee. It didn't sound like they'd be doing much else for their fee other than maybe rebalancing once or twice a year and figured I could do that myself. I'd be curious if they provide any real value ( other than pep talks ) that I'm missing?
There are plenty of people who need pep talks. Consider how many are doled out here, a place of relative sophistication. I directed a fellow I work with to buy the Three Fund Portfolio Boglehead book despite the guy's quantitative chops. Ultimately I recommended the 0.3% advisor service to reduce irrational investment behavior. This year I take extra pleasure in my advice.
User avatar
Taylor Larimore
Advisory Board
Posts: 31757
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:09 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:

We recently had a forum post by a Boglehead stating that Vanguard advisors were asked to recommend more managed funds.

I would be interested if other Bogleheads have run into this recommendation?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "I favor the all-market index index fund as the best choice for most investors."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
User avatar
nedsaid
Posts: 16818
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by nedsaid »

Yes, Vanguard investment advisors are a sound source of information. Keep in mind that nothing is perfect and no one is right all of the time. So ask questions. It is okay to check out certain things they tell you. Within an investment firms, you will see among their Advisors a range of competence and experience. Another thing I would say is to prepare for the meeting beforehand so that you can get the most out of it.
A fool and his money are good for business.
User avatar
Mr. Potter
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Undisclosed Lake, MN

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Mr. Potter »

We recently had a forum post by a Boglehead stating that Vanguard advisors were asked to recommend more managed funds.
I would be very surprised whether it’s Vanguard, Fidelity, or any other brokerage that they wouldn’t recommend more profitable funds for themselves.
Regardless, if you don’t want to or feel comfortable being a DIY than 30 basis points for a professional advisor is a bargain.
Last edited by Mr. Potter on Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Billy C
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:05 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Billy C »

Oak&Elm wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:13 pm
We recently had a forum post by a Boglehead stating that Vanguard advisors were asked to recommend more managed funds.
I would be very surprised whether it’s Vanguard, Fidelity, or any other brokerage that they wouldn’t recommend more profitable funds for themselves.
It would surprise me if Vanguard did that given their true mutual organization structure.

In my experience with Vanguard, including over a decade on a finance committee at work where Vanguard was our 401k plan administrator, they never pushed their actively managed funds if a corresponding lower-cost index fund was available.

At Vanguard’s suggestion we actually got rid of all actively managed funds in our 401k.
“When there are multiple solutions to a problem, choose the simplest one.” ― John C. Bogle
User avatar
Mr. Potter
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Undisclosed Lake, MN

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Mr. Potter »

At Vanguard’s suggestion we actually got rid of all actively managed funds in our 401k.
My apologies, I stand corrected, good for Vanguard. For the record I own Wellington and pay an active management fee of 16 basis points and am happy.
delamer
Posts: 15076
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by delamer »

Likely not, to answer your first question.

If you need advice for a taxed-advantaged account (IRA, 401(k), etc.), then choosing a LifeStrategy or a Target Retirement fund gives you their allocation advice for just the fund fee.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
User avatar
Billy C
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:05 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Billy C »

Oak&Elm wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:35 pm
At Vanguard’s suggestion we actually got rid of all actively managed funds in our 401k.
My apologies, I stand corrected, good for Vanguard. For the record I own Wellington and pay an active management fee of 16 basis points and am happy.
That’s a good price!

Cheers.
“When there are multiple solutions to a problem, choose the simplest one.” ― John C. Bogle
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 26968
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by abuss368 »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:28 pm Bogleheads:

We recently had a forum post by a Boglehead stating that Vanguard advisors were asked to recommend more managed funds.

I would be interested if other Bogleheads have run into this recommendation?

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "I favor the all-market index index fund as the best choice for most investors."
Hi Taylor -

I have family who engaged Vanguard PAS and could not be happier. They implemented the Vanguard Four Fund Portfolio of US & International Stock and Bonds.

No active funds recommended or included.

Best.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Mezzinmi
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:14 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Mezzinmi »

For myself, I elected not to pay the 30 basis pts for their service, but I felt that the strength of the plan was that it removes the errors of trying to time the market and the potential of missing those crucial days when the market has its largest gains, staying true to an AA, as well as the assistance they provide in distributing your savings when needed. I have spent much time in trying to understand how to accumulate and little time in trying to understand how to spend at retirement.
eboats
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:47 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by eboats »

What do Vanguard advisors actually do for the 0.30%? If it's a simple 4 fund portfolio and they recommend you just buy and hold it, am trying to understand what tangible actions you're paying them to take, other than maybe rebalancing once a year?

When I met with a Fidelity advisor, they recommended a more complex slice and dice portfolio and took a more active management style, doing a lot of tax loss harvesting, so it was more clear about the tangible work they would actually be doing for their fee.
Lionel Hutz
Posts: 322
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:18 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Lionel Hutz »

Vanguard advisors are a waste of money for a boglehead for the most part. And if you're interested in taking the time and drilling down into all the specifics, I'd wager the expert bogleheads here can give just as good if not better guidance than your average Vanguard advisor.

Vanguard advisors can definitely provide value for the many people who don't have the time or inclination to manage their portfolio. 30 basis points is a pretty reasonable fee for ongoing asset management, estate planning, on demand advice and guidance (not sure if their lines are similarly plagued like the normal call center, I'm talking in theory) and so on.

And I think many within that subset benefit from the initial setup, particularly consolidating accounts and managing beneficiary, tax, estate planning, and then in time will fire the service but mirror their investment allocations. Then again there's probably just as many that are more than happy to pay 30 basis points for ongoing management for peace of mind so they can focus on other things.
livesoft
Posts: 81604
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by livesoft »

eboats wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:50 am What do Vanguard advisors actually do for the 0.30%? If it's a simple 4 fund portfolio and they recommend you just buy and hold it, am trying to understand what tangible actions you're paying them to take, other than maybe rebalancing once a year?
I was present when someone met with their financial advisor. The main advantage or win that the advisor stressed was that they kept their client from bailing out of the stock market which would have cost the client more than 10% of their assets because the advisor was pretty sure (and I agreed) that the client would not have gotten back in the market in time to make those kinds of gains. Therefore, the advisor concluded that their fee was more than worth it because the fee over time was less than 10% of the assets.

So have Vanguard advisors talked clients out of rueful actions that would in the future cost the clients lots of money? I don't know.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
quantAndHold
Posts: 7931
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by quantAndHold »

eboats wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:50 am What do Vanguard advisors actually do for the 0.30%? If it's a simple 4 fund portfolio and they recommend you just buy and hold it, am trying to understand what tangible actions you're paying them to take, other than maybe rebalancing once a year?

When I met with a Fidelity advisor, they recommended a more complex slice and dice portfolio and took a more active management style, doing a lot of tax loss harvesting, so it was more clear about the tangible work they would actually be doing for their fee.
Most Bogleheads will be fine DIYing it, but I’m having to plan right now for the probability that I will leave my 75 year old, financially illiterate wife behind, and she will need to manage her money without me. I’m the Boglehead. She isn’t, and will never be turned into one. If I could, I would just tell her 3 fund portfolio and chill, but she wouldn’t be able to maintain that herself. If all the advisor does is put everything in a 4 fund portfolio and tell her how much money she can withdraw every year for living expenses, that will be worth every penny.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
livesoft
Posts: 81604
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by livesoft »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:51 am[...]
I would just tell her 3 fund portfolio and chill, but she wouldn’t be able to maintain that herself. If all the advisor does is put everything in a 4 fund portfolio and tell her how much money she can withdraw every year for living expenses, that will be worth every penny.
But could you move the entire portfolio to a LifeStrategy fund and she could just withdraw what she wanted? Could you even set up automated monthly withdrawals so that she would not even have to do any withdrawals? I suppose RMDs might be an issue for some folks still.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
Zeno
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:44 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Zeno »

deleted
Last edited by Zeno on Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
JoMoney
Posts: 14540
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:31 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by JoMoney »

If you expect "investment advice" to point you to some sort of "above market average" investment, you're likely to be disappointed no matter where you turn.
If you need someone to help you develop a plan for saving for retirement (or maybe some other saving goal) or help inform you about various investment products available, and how those products might fit into a plan, I would expect the Vanguard ones would be at a lower cost than others (but higher cost than free advice), and I would feel a little more confident they're not trying to steer me into products that earn them high commissions.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
student
Posts: 8051
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by student »

Although I do not have personal experiences and I must admit that I am bias, from the information that I have gathered, the 0.3% fee may buy you a slightly better than a cookie cutter recommendation. I would just stick with a target date fund unless talking to someone is important to you. Also don't expect to have a dedicated person for long.
student
Posts: 8051
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by student »

Billy C wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:26 pm
Oak&Elm wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:13 pm
We recently had a forum post by a Boglehead stating that Vanguard advisors were asked to recommend more managed funds.
I would be very surprised whether it’s Vanguard, Fidelity, or any other brokerage that they wouldn’t recommend more profitable funds for themselves.
It would surprise me if Vanguard did that given their true mutual organization structure.

In my experience with Vanguard, including over a decade on a finance committee at work where Vanguard was our 401k plan administrator, they never pushed their actively managed funds if a corresponding lower-cost index fund was available.

At Vanguard’s suggestion we actually got rid of all actively managed funds in our 401k.
I think Vanguard has started "pushing/introducing" active funds to its PAS clients. https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 19948.html https://investor.vanguard.com/investor- ... uity-offer It is likely that the funds' ER are much cheaper than the average. (I haven't checked.)
Zeno
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:44 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Zeno »

deleted
Last edited by Zeno on Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
student
Posts: 8051
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by student »

Zeno wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:08 am
student wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:30 am
Billy C wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:26 pm
Oak&Elm wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:13 pm
We recently had a forum post by a Boglehead stating that Vanguard advisors were asked to recommend more managed funds.
I would be very surprised whether it’s Vanguard, Fidelity, or any other brokerage that they wouldn’t recommend more profitable funds for themselves.
It would surprise me if Vanguard did that given their true mutual organization structure.

In my experience with Vanguard, including over a decade on a finance committee at work where Vanguard was our 401k plan administrator, they never pushed their actively managed funds if a corresponding lower-cost index fund was available.

At Vanguard’s suggestion we actually got rid of all actively managed funds in our 401k.
I think Vanguard has started "pushing/introducing" active funds to its PAS clients. https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 19948.html https://investor.vanguard.com/investor- ... uity-offer It is likely that the funds' ER are much cheaper than the average. (I haven't checked.)
Do you have personal experience with PAS or are you merely reposting a news article? And did you have a PAS advisor then get a new one, which you alluded to in your immediately prior post?

The problem with anonymous posting is just this: they become rampant vehicles for the posting of information which may or may not be accurate, relevant, what have you.

If you have first-hand experience with PAS steering you into high-cost funds, please do let us know. In my case, they -- within 48 hours -- reduced our already low-costs. And did so while minimizing taxes.
My reply to Billy C was for the statement "In my experience with Vanguard, including over a decade on a finance committee at work where Vanguard was our 401k plan administrator, they never pushed their actively managed funds if a corresponding lower-cost index fund was available." Vanguard is now offering active funds in PAS. I linked to two articles, one of which is from Vanguard.

If you have issues with my earlier post, I have already stated that I do not have first hand experience and that I am biased. So I have given full disclosure. The information that I gathered regarding Vanguard PAS is mostly from this forum with many threads. Further disclosure. I started investing with Vanguard in the 1990's and only moved out recently to consolidate.

It is good that you are satisfied with Vanguard PAS.
Last edited by student on Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
tibbitts
Posts: 18340
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by tibbitts »

I can't comment on PAS from experience, but I don't understand the comments about Vanguard suddenly shifting to an active fund strategy. Before PAS was developed, Vanguard advisers were widely criticized here for usually advocating a mix of active and index funds. This really seems to be a situation where Vanguard can't win: when the come up with a mix of active and index funds, they're blamed for overly complex and expensive portfolios; when they come up with a simple 3-fund portfolio, they're "cookie-cutter" and so simple that anyone could do without them. Does anyone have a suggestion for what Vanguard should provide through PAS that would satisfy Bogleheads?
student
Posts: 8051
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by student »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 am I can't comment on PAS from experience, but I don't understand the comments about Vanguard suddenly shifting to an active fund strategy. Before PAS was developed, Vanguard advisers were widely criticized here for usually advocating a mix of active and index funds. This really seems to be a situation where Vanguard can't win: when the come up with a mix of active and index funds, they're blamed for overly complex and expensive portfolios; when they come up with a simple 3-fund portfolio, they're "cookie-cutter" and so simple that anyone could do without them. Does anyone have a suggestion for what Vanguard should provide through PAS that would satisfy Bogleheads?
I mentioned PAS using active funds in a post. The only purpose was to respond to another poster which I interpreted as Vanguard never "pushes" active funds. My biased opinion is Vanguard PAS (or those from its competitors) is only good if the customer needs someone to talk to for reassurance during market downturn. For me, Vanguard's target-date funds (or such index funds from its competitors) offer better deal. I guess to clarify, rather than me saying PAS is not good, I am really saying TDF is better.
User avatar
Wading Ashore
Posts: 208
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:23 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Wading Ashore »

I met with an advisor about a year and a half ago. He completely reorganized the portfolio into numerous funds, some managed, i.e. VWUSX, VWIQX, VTRIX, VEXPX, VSEQX. Huge number of trades, with completed disregard, I thought, for the financial implications. I declined. I've never run the numbers on how it would have worked out, but I didn't like the sound of it (or the fees).
tibbitts
Posts: 18340
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by tibbitts »

student wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:41 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 am I can't comment on PAS from experience, but I don't understand the comments about Vanguard suddenly shifting to an active fund strategy. Before PAS was developed, Vanguard advisers were widely criticized here for usually advocating a mix of active and index funds. This really seems to be a situation where Vanguard can't win: when the come up with a mix of active and index funds, they're blamed for overly complex and expensive portfolios; when they come up with a simple 3-fund portfolio, they're "cookie-cutter" and so simple that anyone could do without them. Does anyone have a suggestion for what Vanguard should provide through PAS that would satisfy Bogleheads?
I mentioned PAS using active funds in a post. The only purpose was to respond to another poster which I interpreted as Vanguard never "pushes" active funds. My biased opinion is Vanguard PAS (or those from its competitors) is only good if the customer needs someone to talk to for reassurance during market downturn. For me, Vanguard's target-date funds (or such index funds from its competitors) offer better deal. I guess to clarify, rather than me saying PAS is not good, I am really saying TDF is better.
I don't really see TDF as a competitor, although separate funds (3-fund, or 3-fund+something) would be. The limitation with a TDF is not being able to manage withdrawals or loss harvest individual asset classes.
tibbitts
Posts: 18340
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by tibbitts »

Wading Ashore wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:56 am I met with an advisor about a year and a half ago. He completely reorganized the portfolio into numerous funds, some managed, i.e. VWUSX, VWIQX, VTRIX, VEXPX, VSEQX. Huge number of trades, with completed disregard, I thought, for the financial implications. I declined. I've never run the numbers on how it would have worked out, but I didn't like the sound of it (or the fees).
Was this in taxable and trigger unwanted tax consequences? In fairness your adviser had probably read Bogleheads before meeting with you and was responding to the "cookie-cutter portfolio" complaints. Right now some other Vanguard advisor is reading your post and her next customer will be getting a one-fund index portfolio, in the spirit of "the customer is always right!"
User avatar
Wading Ashore
Posts: 208
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:23 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Wading Ashore »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:09 pm
Wading Ashore wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:56 am I met with an advisor about a year and a half ago. He completely reorganized the portfolio into numerous funds, some managed, i.e. VWUSX, VWIQX, VTRIX, VEXPX, VSEQX. Huge number of trades, with completed disregard, I thought, for the financial implications. I declined. I've never run the numbers on how it would have worked out, but I didn't like the sound of it (or the fees).
Was this in taxable and trigger unwanted tax consequences?
Yes, some taxable.
student
Posts: 8051
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by student »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:59 am
student wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:41 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 am I can't comment on PAS from experience, but I don't understand the comments about Vanguard suddenly shifting to an active fund strategy. Before PAS was developed, Vanguard advisers were widely criticized here for usually advocating a mix of active and index funds. This really seems to be a situation where Vanguard can't win: when the come up with a mix of active and index funds, they're blamed for overly complex and expensive portfolios; when they come up with a simple 3-fund portfolio, they're "cookie-cutter" and so simple that anyone could do without them. Does anyone have a suggestion for what Vanguard should provide through PAS that would satisfy Bogleheads?
I mentioned PAS using active funds in a post. The only purpose was to respond to another poster which I interpreted as Vanguard never "pushes" active funds. My biased opinion is Vanguard PAS (or those from its competitors) is only good if the customer needs someone to talk to for reassurance during market downturn. For me, Vanguard's target-date funds (or such index funds from its competitors) offer better deal. I guess to clarify, rather than me saying PAS is not good, I am really saying TDF is better.
I don't really see TDF as a competitor, although separate funds (3-fund, or 3-fund+something) would be. The limitation with a TDF is not being able to manage withdrawals or loss harvest individual asset classes.
I was thinking about the auto balancing feature of TDF. (My only criterion was set and forget.) I never considered the TLH issue. Thanks for pointing this out.
bradinsky
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:32 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by bradinsky »

I’ll bet that there’s better, more accurate advice here from many of the long time posters, and at no charge. (I would not be in that group.)
User avatar
Wading Ashore
Posts: 208
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:23 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Wading Ashore »

bradinsky wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:15 pm I’ll bet that there’s better, more accurate advice here from many of the long time posters, and at no charge. (I would not be in that group.)
FWIW, none of the managed funds suggested by the advisor received a Morningstar rating higher than Bronze, and the performance of VWUSX in its May 2022 report begins, "Despite a dreadful recent stretch of performance ..."
student
Posts: 8051
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by student »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:09 pm
Wading Ashore wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:56 am I met with an advisor about a year and a half ago. He completely reorganized the portfolio into numerous funds, some managed, i.e. VWUSX, VWIQX, VTRIX, VEXPX, VSEQX. Huge number of trades, with completed disregard, I thought, for the financial implications. I declined. I've never run the numbers on how it would have worked out, but I didn't like the sound of it (or the fees).
Was this in taxable and trigger unwanted tax consequences? In fairness your adviser had probably read Bogleheads before meeting with you and was responding to the "cookie-cutter portfolio" complaints. Right now some other Vanguard advisor is reading your post and her next customer will be getting a one-fund index portfolio, in the spirit of "the customer is always right!"
Funny. I guess I also feel that one can get better and free advice on bogleheads from posters such as yourself, livesoft, nedsaid etc.
livesoft
Posts: 81604
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by livesoft »

Wading Ashore wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:56 am I met with an advisor about a year and a half ago. ....
You did not state whether this advisor was employed by Vanguard or not. ;)
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
Wading Ashore
Posts: 208
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:23 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Wading Ashore »

Yes, a Vanguard Advisor - someone in the Personal Advisor Services group.
Topic Author
jdkoerner
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:12 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by jdkoerner »

Many thanks to all those who posted replies. :sharebeer
BitTooAggressive
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:15 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by BitTooAggressive »

retired@50 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:42 pm
jdkoerner wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:33 pm Meaning better than I receive here. Also, how much do they cost?
You'll typically be guided toward a 4-fund portfolio including US and International stocks and bonds. VTI, VXUS, BND, BNDX.

Regards,
Yep the composition of the target date fund which you can get by yourself for 8 basis points.
tibbitts
Posts: 18340
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by tibbitts »

BitTooAggressive wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:06 pm
retired@50 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:42 pm
jdkoerner wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:33 pm Meaning better than I receive here. Also, how much do they cost?
You'll typically be guided toward a 4-fund portfolio including US and International stocks and bonds. VTI, VXUS, BND, BNDX.

Regards,
Yep the composition of the target date fund which you can get by yourself for 8 basis points.
But it is not the equivalent, because you can't harvest losses or selectively withdraw from a TDF the same way. You can argue if that's important but the fact is that four funds are not the same as one. You can get the four funds yourself of course and that might be trivial for a Boglehead but not for everyone.
friar1610
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: MA South Shore

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by friar1610 »

retired@50 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:42 pm
jdkoerner wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:33 pm Meaning better than I receive here. Also, how much do they cost?
Are Vanguard advisers a sound choice? Yes.

Is it better than you receive here? It depends on who responds to your thread / questions.

Vanguard personal adviser services charges 0.30% for accounts under $5 million. The percentage drops for larger amounts.

They also offer a digital adviser - no adviser interaction - for 0.20%.

You'll typically be guided toward a 4-fund portfolio including US and International stocks and bonds. VTI, VXUS, BND, BNDX.

Regards,

My experience (several years ago) was that the “BND” portion was actually broken into 3 separate funds, a LT, IT and ST. They may be doing just BND these days - I don’t know. I declined to sign up for PAS but did go through the drill of getting a recommendation.
Friar1610 | 50-ish/50-ish
User avatar
retired@50
Posts: 9500
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:36 pm
Location: Living in the U.S.A.

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by retired@50 »

friar1610 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:53 pm
retired@50 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:42 pm
jdkoerner wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:33 pm Meaning better than I receive here. Also, how much do they cost?
Are Vanguard advisers a sound choice? Yes.

Is it better than you receive here? It depends on who responds to your thread / questions.

Vanguard personal adviser services charges 0.30% for accounts under $5 million. The percentage drops for larger amounts.

They also offer a digital adviser - no adviser interaction - for 0.20%.

You'll typically be guided toward a 4-fund portfolio including US and International stocks and bonds. VTI, VXUS, BND, BNDX.

Regards,

My experience (several years ago) was that the “BND” portion was actually broken into 3 separate funds, a LT, IT and ST. They may be doing just BND these days - I don’t know. I declined to sign up for PAS but did go through the drill of getting a recommendation.
I would presume they have some latitude to make client specific recommendations, based on risk tolerance, etc. But even BND contains some LT, IT, and ST bonds, so it may not be that much different.

The statement I made above about a 4-fund portfolio was based on anecdotal stories I've read in the forum.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
Vanguard User
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed May 26, 2021 5:46 pm
Location: Sugar Land, Texas

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Vanguard User »

Taylor Larimore is the G.O.A.T advisor here right?
BitTooAggressive
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:15 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by BitTooAggressive »

tibbitts wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:18 pm
BitTooAggressive wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:06 pm
retired@50 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:42 pm
jdkoerner wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:33 pm Meaning better than I receive here. Also, how much do they cost?
You'll typically be guided toward a 4-fund portfolio including US and International stocks and bonds. VTI, VXUS, BND, BNDX.

Regards,
Yep the composition of the target date fund which you can get by yourself for 8 basis points.
But it is not the equivalent, because you can't harvest losses or selectively withdraw from a TDF the same way. You can argue if that's important but the fact is that four funds are not the same as one. You can get the four funds yourself of course and that might be trivial for a Boglehead but not for everyone.
Sure holding the individual funds provides more flexibility. I think a target date fund is good for a lot of people for accumulation in a tax protected account. In de-cumulation not being able to sell from say your short term bond component is a big disadvantage.
MikeG62
Posts: 4745
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by MikeG62 »

eboats wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:05 pm I met with a Vanguard advisor and they recommended a simple 4 fund portfolio. I just decided if it was that simple, I'd manage it myself and not pay their 0.30% fee. It didn't sound like they'd be doing much else for their fee other than maybe rebalancing once or twice a year and figured I could do that myself. I'd be curious if they provide any real value ( other than pep talks ) that I'm missing?
I think that is a fair characterization.

I helped my SIL onboard to Vanguard PAS two years ago following her divorce. Yes, what they recommended was simple enough. For her it was the right choice as she has no idea what she is doing when it comes to investing. I did not want to be her financial advisor for a host of reasons. But I was happy enough to help her get to VG and participated in all the calls with them to get her set up (and help answer her questions) and ready to go.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
rockAction
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:56 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by rockAction »

I used PAS to manage a small portion of my portfolio, which was the min required amount ($50K). This gave me a model to use for the rest of my portfolio. I had received a significant windfall and was entering retirement, so having someone to talk to and ask questions gave me peace of mind.

I dropped PAS after a year because I felt comfortable making my own investment decisions at that point. They were excellent for the time I used them, but I no longer felt it was necessary to continue using them and paying the fee.

If you are somewhat of a novice investor or prone to making rash decisions, it is a solid and reasonably cheap option.

One rule I have now is that for any investment decision I am considering, I post the idea on bogleheads before making any moves as a safeguard from making poor decisions. Doing so has served me well and has stopped me from doing things I hadn't fully thought through.
65/35 AA | 55/30/15 US/Int/EM | 25% SCV tilt | FI: 2/3 TIPS. 1/3 Treasuries. Intermediate duration
User avatar
Mr. Potter
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Undisclosed Lake, MN

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Mr. Potter »

I heard some quote that the average person spends 70,000 hours accumulating your wealth and less than 5 hours learning how to manage it. Speaking from experience when you step in and help family or friends with investments you by default become their advisor. When things such as the recent market down turn happen guess who gets blamed? Yes, with minimal instructions you can create your own 3-fund portfolio but when you consider tax consequences, multiple accounts, tax loss harvesting, stepped up basis, etc a little help is nice. In hindsight if learning about investing isn’t someone’s thing than paying a professional advisor 30 basis points is well worth it.
Target2019
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:30 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by Target2019 »

jdkoerner wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:33 pm Meaning better than I receive here. Also, how much do they cost?
This is the Vanguard page for Vanguard Personal Advisor Services:
https://investor.vanguard.com/advice/financial-advisor

Some will probably benefit from the paid services, others may not. It depends on your needs and experience with investing principles (which are as complicated as you make them).

I think after reading a few hundred posts here you pretty much get the Bogle model. You can supplement that with a basic book and be on your way.
afan
Posts: 7257
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:01 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by afan »

JoMoney wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:09 am If you expect "investment advice" to point you to some sort of "above market average" investment, you're likely to be disappointed no matter where you turn.
If you need someone to help you develop a plan for saving for retirement (or maybe some other saving goal) or help inform you about various investment products available, and how those products might fit into a plan, I would expect the Vanguard ones would be at a lower cost than others (but higher cost than free advice), and I would feel a little more confident they're not trying to steer me into products that earn them high commissions.
These are excellent points.
Note, however, that 0.3% may be more than you need to pay for this. Depending on how much money you would give them to manage, it could be less expensive to hire an hourly-fee, advice-only financial planner to make your plan. They would charge for their services and there would be no ongoing costs. They would not manage your money. They would just indicate how you should do it yourself. If you go to one who does not manage manoy for anyone, then they will have nothing else to sell you.

I have never used such a planner. However, I have been very impressed with Allen Roth, who practices this way. If I wanted financial advice, I would get on his long waiting list and deal with him.

Back when Vanguard offered is "Ask a CFP" service without requiring ine to sign up for PAS, I used them a few times. The superficial nature of the advice and the limited knowledge of the CFPs was frankly alarming. I was curious whether they would be a good source of information in the future for financial planning not investment advice. Much of their advice was simply wrong. Some of it ignored the information I gave them and declared an answer based on nothing at all. I would never advise someone to take what they say at face value.

My impression- you do not need someone to manage your money, so paying anything for someone to do it is a waste.
If you need financial advice beyond investing, I would look elsewhere.

If you want a safe, reliable source of low fee funds, no gimmicks, not pushing trendy junk investments, Vanguard is great and I am very happy with them.
Last edited by afan on Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
afan
Posts: 7257
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:01 pm

Re: Are Vanguard investment advisors a sound choice of information?

Post by afan »

The first place I turn for non investing financial information is right here. Bogleheads are far more knowledgeable than the Vanguard CFPs. Not even close.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
Post Reply