Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

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Topic Author
brew
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:36 pm

Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by brew »

Hello,

My 401k is with Vanguard and allows rollovers in. I recently closed my TSP and rolled it into a Vanguard Rollover IRA, and I would like to take that amount and roll it into the 401k (the TSP was all pre-tax dollars, no CZTE or anything that requires special handling) I am actively contributing to as a private sector employee.

I completed the rollover form for the 401k and it shows pending on their retirement plans site, but I cannot figure out how to initiate the rollover without having a check sent to me. When I called Vanguard, their 401k section rep helped me through submitting the rollover form and said "it will look like you're requesting a check, but it will go through electronically," but after she transferred me to the IRA people to initiate the rollover, that rep transferred me back to the 401k people, who then transferred me back to the IRA people. The final IRA rep was about to transfer me back to the 401k people again when I gave up.

What in particular do I need to ask for (and from whom) to initiate the rollover? Is what I'm asking for even possible, or do I just need to use the website and request a check?

Thanks.
retiringwhen
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by retiringwhen »

I did this about 5 years ago, if my memory is correct, the process was as described, a check was requested but it was all handled by Vanguard.
Topic Author
brew
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by brew »

retiringwhen wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:13 pm I did this about 5 years ago, if my memory is correct, the process was as described, a check was requested but it was all handled by Vanguard.
I appreciate the reply. I sold all shares Friday afternoon to get everything consolidated into the settlement account, and that settlement date appears as 22 Nov. Once I see the total balance in VMFXX I will initiate the check request.

I did the steps of "Withdraw from IRA" / "Send me a check" this morning to see what the process looked like, and the payment is made out to me (with "R/O IRA VFTC AS CUSTODIAN") and the website claims it will be sent to me via US Mail when I hit submit. Is there a subsequent step to direct the "check" be sent somewhere else?
retiringwhen
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by retiringwhen »

Hmm. That doesn't like what happened for me. The check was made out to the 401k administrator. That is why i did not have to sign it. Maybe your 401k does not allow that.
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Eagle33
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Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by Eagle33 »

On Monday call the Vanguard 401k people to clarify the proper "check" addressee to ensure a direct custodian to custodian transfer.
Lionel Hutz
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Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by Lionel Hutz »

The 401k cannot "pull" the funds, the IRA must "push" them. The form you completed on the 401k side is just to "open the gate" so to speak to expect an incoming check, but the IRA still needs to push the funds.

Rolling an IRA to a 401k is allowed, but uncommon so many reps are unknowledgeable, in fact they may say "no 401ks roll into IRAs not the other way around".

There is a form on the IRA side where you can elect a rollover distribution. Do not accept them cutting you a check payable to you, it must be a direct rollover payable to the Vanguard 401k (however the 401k instructs you to make it payable, probably something like 'Vanguard FBO John Doe's ABC 401k plan')
Topic Author
brew
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by brew »

Lionel Hutz wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:20 am The 401k cannot "pull" the funds, the IRA must "push" them. The form you completed on the 401k side is just to "open the gate" so to speak to expect an incoming check, but the IRA still needs to push the funds.
Thank you, my first 401k rep was pretty knowledgeable about this when she "opened the gate" (I like it) but the additional detail in your final paragraph helps very much on what to say to the next IRA rep. I'll play CSR roulette on the IRA side tomorrow when the ETF sale transaction settles.
bubbly
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:21 pm

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by bubbly »

Hi there,

I did this last year. Perhaps these steps may help. I would still check to make sure this information is still up to date.
========================================================

A. Releasing the funds from Vanguard Pretax IRA:
1. Log on to your account at vanguard.com.
2. Select “Forms” at the top of the page.
3. Under “Browse by Topic” select “Add or remove money, trade within your
account.”
4. Select “Sell shares of an existing account.”
5. Choose the “Vanguard Brokerage Account IRA Distribution” form.

Make sure to send the check directly to VFTC FBO {your name} and send it to the El Paso Address.
P.O. Box 982902
El Paso, TX 79998-2902

A few disclaimers:
-Choose the option to not withhold any taxes (state or federal) when prompted as this a direct rollover of pretax traditional IRA money into a 401k (ensure ahead of time that this is a pretax IRA).

-Also you must liquidate everything into the settlement fund prior to the rollover. Only a number up to the amount in the settlement fund is allowed to be transferred and if you don’t liquidate everything into the settlement fund, the full amount of the IRA cannot be transferred over. Not all brokerages require this (Fidelity auto liquidated everything before the transfer as I previously had also rolled over a Fidelity 401k to my current 401k)

-The account number will be the Plan #/ID of the Vanguard 401k plan.

B. Notifying the Vanguard 401k of an incoming transfer:
Fill out the form for the rollover-in.
This should be under plan details -> plan rules -> rollovers in and asset transfer -> start my rollover
Topic Author
brew
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by brew »

Lionel Hutz wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:20 amDo not accept them cutting you a check payable to you ...
Would this be considered an indirect rollover? And would it still be a direct rollover if they send me a check as long as it is made out to "Vanguard FBO brew," and not made out to me with VFTC as custodian?

Just want to make sure I understand the terminology. I was doing some reading and it looks like you can only do one indirect rollover every 365 days, so I wouldn't want to use that unless absolutely necessary.

Hopefully everything is in the settlement account tomorrow and I get a decent IRA rep on the phone at VG who knows how to initiate the rollover electronically.
Lionel Hutz
Posts: 322
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:18 pm

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by Lionel Hutz »

brew wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:48 pm
Lionel Hutz wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:20 amDo not accept them cutting you a check payable to you ...
Would this be considered an indirect rollover? And would it still be a direct rollover if they send me a check as long as it is made out to "Vanguard FBO brew," and not made out to me with VFTC as custodian?
If the check is payable to you it’s a taxable distribution which you’d need to do an indirect rollover for, and yes only one is allowed every rolling 365 days. Be aware not all plans accept indirect rollovers.

If the check is payable to Vanguard FBO you, it’s a direct rollover.
Alan S.
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Location: Prescott, AZ

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by Alan S. »

Lionel Hutz wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:28 pm
brew wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:48 pm
Lionel Hutz wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:20 amDo not accept them cutting you a check payable to you ...
Would this be considered an indirect rollover? And would it still be a direct rollover if they send me a check as long as it is made out to "Vanguard FBO brew," and not made out to me with VFTC as custodian?
If the check is payable to you it’s a taxable distribution which you’d need to do an indirect rollover for, and yes only one is allowed every rolling 365 days. Be aware not all plans accept indirect rollovers.

If the check is payable to Vanguard FBO you, it’s a direct rollover.
Whether done by a 60 day rollover or a direct rollover, IRA funds rolled into a non IRA account are not subject to the one rollover per 12 month limit. That limit only applies to 60 day rollovers between like kind IRA accounts (TIRA to TIRA or Roth IRA to Roth IRA).
tACKJAYE
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:35 pm

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by tACKJAYE »

Just curious and trying to understand, what's the benefit of rolling over an IRA to 401(k), since I have a rollover IRA with Fidelity. Doesn't having an IRA brokerage account give more choices of funds, stocks, ETFs, etc? 
bubbly wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:40 am Hi there,

I did this last year. Perhaps these steps may help. I would still check to make sure this information is still up to date.
========================================================

A. Releasing the funds from Vanguard Pretax IRA:
1. Log on to your account at vanguard.com.
2. Select “Forms” at the top of the page.
3. Under “Browse by Topic” select “Add or remove money, trade within your
account.”
4. Select “Sell shares of an existing account.”
5. Choose the “Vanguard Brokerage Account IRA Distribution” form.

Make sure to send the check directly to VFTC FBO {your name} and send it to the El Paso Address.
P.O. Box 982902
El Paso, TX 79998-2902

A few disclaimers:
-Choose the option to not withhold any taxes (state or federal) when prompted as this a direct rollover of pretax traditional IRA money into a 401k (ensure ahead of time that this is a pretax IRA).

-Also you must liquidate everything into the settlement fund prior to the rollover. Only a number up to the amount in the settlement fund is allowed to be transferred and if you don’t liquidate everything into the settlement fund, the full amount of the IRA cannot be transferred over. Not all brokerages require this (Fidelity auto liquidated everything before the transfer as I previously had also rolled over a Fidelity 401k to my current 401k)

-The account number will be the Plan #/ID of the Vanguard 401k plan.

B. Notifying the Vanguard 401k of an incoming transfer:
Fill out the form for the rollover-in.
This should be under plan details -> plan rules -> rollovers in and asset transfer -> start my rollover
Topic Author
brew
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by brew »

tACKJAYE wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:55 pm Just curious and trying to understand, what's the benefit of rolling over an IRA to 401(k), since I have a rollover IRA with Fidelity. Doesn't having an IRA brokerage account give more choices of funds, stocks, ETFs, etc? 
I'm not sure I can answer the question generally, but this was my thought process:

- Closed my traditional TSP due to poor customer service, difficulty accessing funds and non-spouse inheritance rules. Rolled over to a (pre-tax) IRA.
- Consolidate retirement balances, either pre-tax 401(k), or convert to Roth and pay the tax. I chose the former.
- My 401(k) is in VINIX which has a (very slightly) lower ER than VTSAX.
- I wanted to empty my rollover IRA by Dec 31 so I can use it to backdoor money into my Roth during 2023 (not sure this was really a hard requirement, but it will make it less likely for me to screw things up).

My main driver was to simplify my retirement portfolio and have my pre-tax investments in one place.

My rollover-in was initiated yesterday by VG and I will update this thread once everything is in its final resting place.
Mike83
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Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:37 pm

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by Mike83 »

Last year I did a rollover from VG 401k to VG Trad account. Process required check mailed to me. payable VG FBO ME. It was a *big* check by US Mail. Out of market for a week, but I was able to deposit my VG check to VG by mobile photo.
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Duckie
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Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by Duckie »

tACKJAYE wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:55 pm Just curious and trying to understand, what's the benefit of rolling over an IRA to 401(k), since I have a rollover IRA with Fidelity. Doesn't having an IRA brokerage account give more choices of funds, stocks, ETFs, etc?
An IRA usually does give you more choices but some people want to use the backdoor Roth method and assets in a non-Roth IRA will mess that up, so they roll to a 401k which won't be a problem. Other people like the extra ERISA protection (in some states) afforded to qualified employer plans. And some people just like to consolidate their accounts.
vishalugle
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:12 am

Re: Rollover into Vanguard 401k from Vanguard Rollover IRA

Post by vishalugle »

brew wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:08 pm Hello,

My 401k is with Vanguard and allows rollovers in. I recently closed my TSP and rolled it into a Vanguard Rollover IRA, and I would like to take that amount and roll it into the 401k (the TSP was all pre-tax dollars, no CZTE or anything that requires special handling) I am actively contributing to as a private sector employee.

I completed the rollover form for the 401k and it shows pending on their retirement plans site, but I cannot figure out how to initiate the rollover without having a check sent to me. When I called Vanguard, their 401k section rep helped me through submitting the rollover form and said "it will look like you're requesting a check, but it will go through electronically," but after she transferred me to the IRA people to initiate the rollover, that rep transferred me back to the 401k people, who then transferred me back to the IRA people. The final IRA rep was about to transfer me back to the 401k people again when I gave up.

What in particular do I need to ask for (and from whom) to initiate the rollover? Is what I'm asking for even possible, or do I just need to use the website and request a check?

Thanks.
I did this exact thing last week as I had a rollover IRA and current 401k with Vanguard. The process is a little confusing, I was not sure if I had to mail in any forms. Its a two step process, first is the distribution from IRA account. You do this step online and it generates a form that is docusigned by you. The form gives a Texas address to mail in but you don’t have to send it. When generating this form I selected the option to mail the check directly to Vanguard.

Second step is the rollover, you generate a form for this online as well. No need to send this form to Vanguard.
With in a couple of days I could see the money moved from my IRA to 401k.
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