Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

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Invest_Wisely
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Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Invest_Wisely »

I will be leaving my federal government job at the end of the month after less than five years of federal service. I need to decide what to do with my retirement (FERS) contributions upon leaving. I have the option of requesting a lump sum refund payment (with interest) of these deductions or leaving the deductions in the retirement fund in case I return to the federal government. The refund payment of contributions is not taxed, however, the interest on the contributions are.

I'm leaning toward requesting the refund, as I think chances are higher I don't return to federal service, but I can't completely rule it out. What are other's thoughts on this? If I request a refund, how should I handle it? I assume I'll have to move it into a taxable account or into a backdoor roth.

I'm married filing jointly, one child, 24% marginal tax rate, and no debt besides the home mortgage.
Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Earned 40 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
SR II
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by SR II »

Invest_Wisely wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:42 pm I will be leaving my federal government job at the end of the month after less than five years of federal service. I need to decide what to do with my retirement (FERS) contributions upon leaving. I have the option of requesting a lump sum refund payment (with interest) of these deductions or leaving the deductions in the retirement fund in case I return to the federal government. The refund payment of contributions is not taxed, however, the interest on the contributions are.

I'm leaning toward requesting the refund, as I think chances are higher I don't return to federal service, but I can't completely rule it out. What are other's thoughts on this? If I request a refund, how should I handle it? I assume I'll have to move it into a taxable account or into a backdoor roth.

I'm married filing jointly, one child, 24% marginal tax rate, and no debt besides the home mortgage.
Wow! I never even knew this was an option. I worked for the federal government for just over four years (March 2008 to May 2012) and paid into FERS. I wonder if it is too late to apply for a refund of contributions? I've just printed out the form from OPM.gov (https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf3106.pdf) and will certainly look into it. Thank you!
texasdiver
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by texasdiver »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Are you sure the FERS contribution are "after tax?" I'm pretty sure they are pre-tax.
Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

texasdiver wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:38 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Are you sure the FERS contribution are "after tax?" I'm pretty sure they are pre-tax.
I am 100% sure that employee FERS contributions are after tax.

Lots of good information in this publication:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p721.pdf
Earned 40 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
Swansea
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Swansea »

I do not see a downside to taking the refund. It may be redeposited with interest if you return and get 5 years of service.
From FedWeek:

One situation in which taking a refund may make the most sense: If you have less than five years of service and expect you’ll never return to the government to reach that number, leaving the money in the system essentially means forfeiting it. If you take a refund on those grounds and do later return to work for the government despite your earlier expectation, you’d need to redeposit that amount plus interest to get credit for that prior time in your annuity computation.
rich126
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by rich126 »

I didn't realize you had the option of leaving them with the government. I thought you had to been an employee 5 years to get vested in the system. I know it is 3 years to get vested in the matching 401K money.

Personally I would always keep it with the government in case you return. My case was a lot different because I left after 15 years but after being gone for about a decade, I came back and I was very glad I didn't take it out. Usually the amount refunded isn't that significant especially with 5 yrs or less of service time.

And while it may be likely you don't ever return I know many that have.
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doss
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by doss »

Invest_Wisely wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:42 pm I will be leaving my federal government job at the end of the month after less than five years of federal service. I need to decide what to do with my retirement (FERS) contributions upon leaving. I have the option of requesting a lump sum refund payment (with interest) of these deductions or leaving the deductions in the retirement fund in case I return to the federal government. The refund payment of contributions is not taxed, however, the interest on the contributions are.

I'm leaning toward requesting the refund, as I think chances are higher I don't return to federal service, but I can't completely rule it out. What are other's thoughts on this? If I request a refund, how should I handle it? I assume I'll have to move it into a taxable account or into a backdoor roth.

I'm married filing jointly, one child, 24% marginal tax rate, and no debt besides the home mortgage.
I left federal service in 2012 with less than 5 years service, as well. I don't recall requesting a lump sum refund payment of FERS contributions. Maybe I should look into this! But, I have no idea where to even start. I do have access to TSP.org. Is there something in there where I can get an idea of the amount ?

I did find my old SF50. :confused
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Dusn
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Dusn »

If you’re young is FERS even worth it if you need to contribute 4.4% of your post-tax salary each year. You’d have to do the exact calculations but you may be able do as well just investing that money in the stock market.

So I think the decision would depend partly on your current age. That and the healthcare benefit seem far more beneficial if you join the gov closer to age 60.
rkhusky
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by rkhusky »

Dusn wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:05 am If you’re young is FERS even worth it if you need to contribute 4.4% of your post-tax salary each year. You’d have to do the exact calculations but you may be able do as well just investing that money in the stock market.

So I think the decision would depend partly on your current age. That and the healthcare benefit seem far more beneficial if you join the gov closer to age 60.
Contributing to FERS is not optional.
Here is a brief analysis of the benefit for someone who stays in the government for 30 years:
https://www.fedsmith.com/2016/03/16/can-i-opt-out-fers/
moglehead
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by moglehead »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:53 pm
texasdiver wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:38 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Are you sure the FERS contribution are "after tax?" I'm pretty sure they are pre-tax.
I am 100% sure that employee FERS contributions are after tax.

Lots of good information in this publication:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p721.pdf
From page two: "This plan is similar to private sector 401(k) plans. You can defer tax on part of your pay by having it contributed to your traditional balance in the plan. The contributions and earnings on them aren't taxed until they are distributed to you."
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pahkcah
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by pahkcah »

To eliminate any confusion with terminology, the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) is the overall retirement plan. Per OPM, "FERS is a retirement plan that provides benefits from three different sources: a Basic Benefit Plan, Social Security and the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP)."

The OP asked for information on the Basic Benefit Plan, which is the "pension piece" of the overall FERS three-legged plan. Maybe a better way of stating the post title would have been, "...What to do with the FERS pension contributions?"
Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

moglehead wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:38 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:53 pm
texasdiver wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:38 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Are you sure the FERS contribution are "after tax?" I'm pretty sure they are pre-tax.
I am 100% sure that employee FERS contributions are after tax.

Lots of good information in this publication:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p721.pdf
From page two: "This plan is similar to private sector 401(k) plans. You can defer tax on part of your pay by having it contributed to your traditional balance in the plan. The contributions and earnings on them aren't taxed until they are distributed to you."
That is under the heading TSP not a FERS/CSRS box.
Earned 40 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

doss wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:52 am I left federal service in 2012 with less than 5 years service, as well. I don't recall requesting a lump sum refund payment of FERS contributions. Maybe I should look into this! But, I have no idea where to even start. I do have access to TSP.org. Is there something in there where I can get an idea of the amount ?

I did find my old SF50. :confused
Based on the date, you probably had been under FERS (not FERS-RAE or FERS-FRAE) (all three are the same basic plan, but congress decided later employees had to pay a higher percentage contributions) For some exact dates and rules you can reference; https://www.fedsmith.com/2014/04/07/fer ... this-mean/

This would mean they would have probably withheld .8% of your salary for the FERS benefit. On most modern "Leave and earning statements" the payroll provider has a running total about how much "Ret deductions this appointment" or something similar. Not sure how you can figure out the amount unless you have your old W2's that you can do some basic .8% math.

Then it would also have interest credits.

Just file a SF3106
Earned 40 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
rkhusky
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by rkhusky »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:53 pm
texasdiver wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:38 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Are you sure the FERS contribution are "after tax?" I'm pretty sure they are pre-tax.
I am 100% sure that employee FERS contributions are after tax.

Lots of good information in this publication:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p721.pdf
+1

When a FERS employee begins receiving pension checks, the contribution amount is subtracted from the total to compute the taxable amount.
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HueyLD
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by HueyLD »

There might be a problem when your FERS contribution was not withdrawn after you left.

The OPM may lose your record by claiming that you had withdrawn the money even though you had not. That could happen if your employment gap is more than one decade.

A family member quit federal employment and decided to check the status of his FERS contribution remained with the federal government after about 20 years. Well, he was told by an OPM employee that his money was withdrawn many years ago per their records. And he knew for certain that the money was never touched.

As one could imagine, it took quite a bit of effort to overcome the bureaucracy and he almost gave up on claiming the money. Yuck!
chemocean
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by chemocean »

doss wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:52 am
Invest_Wisely wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:42 pm I will be leaving my federal government job at the end of the month after less than five years of federal service. I need to decide what to do with my retirement (FERS) contributions upon leaving. I have the option of requesting a lump sum refund payment (with interest) of these deductions or leaving the deductions in the retirement fund in case I return to the federal government. The refund payment of contributions is not taxed, however, the interest on the contributions are.

I'm leaning toward requesting the refund, as I think chances are higher I don't return to federal service, but I can't completely rule it out. What are other's thoughts on this? If I request a refund, how should I handle it? I assume I'll have to move it into a taxable account or into a backdoor roth.

I'm married filing jointly, one child, 24% marginal tax rate, and no debt besides the home mortgage.
I left federal service in 2012 with less than 5 years service, as well. I don't recall requesting a lump sum refund payment of FERS contributions. Maybe I should look into this! But, I have no idea where to even start. I do have access to TSP.org. Is there something in there where I can get an idea of the amount ?

I did find my old SF50. :confused
The FERS refund is through OPM, not TSP. https://www.servicesonline.opm.gov/
SR II
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by SR II »

doss wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:52 am I left federal service in 2012 with less than 5 years service, as well. I don't recall requesting a lump sum refund payment of FERS contributions. Maybe I should look into this! But, I have no idea where to even start. I do have access to TSP.org. Is there something in there where I can get an idea of the amount ?

I did find my old SF50. :confused
I posted this link to the OPM FERS Refund form above: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf3106.pdf

Here is more information from the OPM website: https://www.opm.gov/retirement-services ... employees/
SR II
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by SR II »

HueyLD wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:30 am There might be a problem when your FERS contribution was not withdrawn after you left.

The OPM may lose your record by claiming that you had withdrawn the money even though you had not. That could happen if your employment gap is more than one decade.

A family member quit federal employment and decided to check the status of his FERS contribution remained with the federal government after about 20 years. Well, he was told by an OPM employee that his money was withdrawn many years ago per their records. And he knew for certain that the money was never touched.

As one could imagine, it took quite a bit of effort to overcome the bureaucracy and he almost gave up on claiming the money. Yuck!
Since I didn't even know a refund was a thing, I'd be pleased to get anything back after all these years!
finite_difference
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by finite_difference »

doss wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:52 am
Invest_Wisely wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:42 pm I will be leaving my federal government job at the end of the month after less than five years of federal service. I need to decide what to do with my retirement (FERS) contributions upon leaving. I have the option of requesting a lump sum refund payment (with interest) of these deductions or leaving the deductions in the retirement fund in case I return to the federal government. The refund payment of contributions is not taxed, however, the interest on the contributions are.

I'm leaning toward requesting the refund, as I think chances are higher I don't return to federal service, but I can't completely rule it out. What are other's thoughts on this? If I request a refund, how should I handle it? I assume I'll have to move it into a taxable account or into a backdoor roth.

I'm married filing jointly, one child, 24% marginal tax rate, and no debt besides the home mortgage.
I left federal service in 2012 with less than 5 years service, as well. I don't recall requesting a lump sum refund payment of FERS contributions. Maybe I should look into this! But, I have no idea where to even start. I do have access to TSP.org. Is there something in there where I can get an idea of the amount ?

I did find my old SF50. :confused
Back of the envelope calculation: 0.008 * total salary you received over the years.

If there’s a chance you go back to Federal service, I would probably leave it since then it will increase your pension by 1% * high-3 average salary * X years where X is the number of years worked.

So if you worked 3 years you’ll get an extra 3% of your high-3 salary in pension.

So if your high-3 is $100k at retirement, that’s $3k per year extra, indexed to inflation, until you die.

Or you could cash out and get 0.008 * $80k * 3 years = $1.92k if your salary averaged out to $80k.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
tj
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by tj »

texasdiver wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:38 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Are you sure the FERS contribution are "after tax?" I'm pretty sure they are pre-tax.
They are absolutely after tax. You don't get a tax deduction for contributing to FERS.
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Invest_Wisely
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Invest_Wisely »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Interesting! So can I roll this into an existing Roth I have with Vanguard even if we exceed the MAGI limits for 2022?
tj
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by tj »

Invest_Wisely wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:17 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Interesting! So can I roll this into an existing Roth I have with Vanguard even if we exceed the MAGI limits for 2022?
There are no MAGI limits that I'm aware of for Rollovers or Conversions.
Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

tj wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:24 am
Invest_Wisely wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:17 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Interesting! So can I roll this into an existing Roth I have with Vanguard even if we exceed the MAGI limits for 2022?
There are no MAGI limits that I'm aware of for Rollovers or Conversions.
You are correct @tj.

Yes @Invest_Wisely, it is common to convert the "aftertax contributions to the FERS defined benefit plan" to a Roth IRA, and split off any gains to either a pretax ira or the TSP pretax account. (or some other preetax account).
Earned 40 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
texasdiver
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by texasdiver »

tj wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:27 pm
texasdiver wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:38 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:03 pm This isn't my guide and it's going to change a bit when the TSP changes.

But a common thing is to roll your contributions to a Roth IRA since they had been "after-tax" contributions and then the interest earned to a pretax account like the TSP.

https://gist.github.com/monfresh/d92dc0 ... 3e7ce07214
Are you sure the FERS contribution are "after tax?" I'm pretty sure they are pre-tax.
They are absolutely after tax. You don't get a tax deduction for contributing to FERS.
My mistake. I thought it was like other pensions that were deducted pre-tax from your paycheck.
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grabiner
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by grabiner »

finite_difference wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:45 pm Back of the envelope calculation: 0.008 * total salary you received over the years.
This depends on when you started your job. It is 3.1% if you started in 2013 (FERS-RAE) and 4.4% if you started in 2014 or later (FERS-FRAE). Thus getting back the money now, rather than waiting for the potential of a small annuity at age 62, may be more desirable.
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Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Leaving Federal Government - What to do with retirement (FERS) contributions?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

grabiner wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:44 pm
finite_difference wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:45 pm Back of the envelope calculation: 0.008 * total salary you received over the years.
This depends on when you started your job. It is 3.1% if you started in 2013 (FERS-RAE) and 4.4% if you started in 2014 or later (FERS-FRAE). Thus getting back the money now, rather than waiting for the potential of a small annuity at age 62, may be more desirable.
Also, if someone was military, they might have made a deposit of 3% of base pay earned (except earnings in 1999 are 3.25%, earnings in 2000 are 3.4%). https://www.opm.gov/retirement-services ... /#military So they could have made a large deposit, but then if they don't make 5 years of civilian service, they aren't eligible for a pension..

One can always re-redeposit (with interest) later.
Earned 40 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
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