Duration of a trust?

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jbinpa59
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Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

Wife inheireted from / under a Trust that specificly names her as a Primary Beneficiary
for Grantor of that trust, Death Date was in April of 2021

Wife's Trust is a succesor trust under the terms of the original trust but does not have specific language of its own
other than being titled as
"Ir-recoverable trust fbo XXXX under Art IIIB of such and such recoverable Trust dated mo/day/yr"
Fidelity has a copy of the original trust

Her "issue" our Sons are in thier 30's so alive on Original Grantors Death Date
[Our Grandchild was born June 2021 was not

Checks from Estate were issued in Sept 2021
Trust EIN was applied for and issued in Oct 2021
Self Directed Trust Account was finally opened and Funded at Fidelity today

Is the duration of her Trust 21 yrs past our sons lifetime?
or our grandchilds?

I believe its our Sons Lifetimes + 21yrs not our Grandchilds lifetime +21 yrs
Is that correct?
bsteiner
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by bsteiner »

When was the trust created (or when did the grantor no longer have the power to amend or revoke it, if later)?

What state's law governs?
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jbinpa59
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

original trust was written in NY on Sept of 2014 as a recoverable trust with $10 funding
Grantor shortly after moved to CT but original trust instrument specified it would continue under laws of NY
that trust became fully funded from his Estate and became ir-recoverable at Grantor's death in April 2021

so I believe thats the date for the "Known Beneficiaries" determination?
never delt with anyt rust accounts before and trying to help wife learn her responabilities as Trustee/Beneficiary
rossington
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by rossington »

jbinpa59 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:02 pm Wife inheireted from / under a Trust that specificly names her as a Primary Beneficiary
for Grantor of that trust, Death Date was in April of 2021

Wife's Trust is a succesor trust under the terms of the original trust but does not have specific language of its own
other than being titled as
"Ir-recoverable trust fbo XXXX under Art IIIB of such and such recoverable Trust dated mo/day/yr"
Fidelity has a copy of the original trust

Her "issue" our Sons are in thier 30's so alive on Original Grantors Death Date
[Our Grandchild was born June 2021 was not

Checks from Estate were issued in Sept 2021
Trust EIN was applied for and issued in Oct 2021
Self Directed Trust Account was finally opened and Funded at Fidelity today

Is the duration of her Trust 21 yrs past our sons lifetime?
or our grandchilds?

I believe its our Sons Lifetimes + 21yrs not our Grandchilds lifetime +21 yrs
Is that correct?
We have to determine if what you are saying is:
Your wife is the Successor Trustee (and sole beneficiary) of the original revocable trust and now the Trustee of the now irrevocable (not "ir-recoverable") trust.
If this is correct then the following make sense:
The EIN is necessary for the irrevocable trust.
A new trust account for the now newly created irrevocable trust would be necessary....how is the new trust account at Fidelity titled?
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by cadreamer2015 »

The duration of the trust should be specified in the trust language. The trust could have been written to terminate upon your wife’s death with the trust assets then distributed to her issue. But you would have to read the language of the trust to determine when the assets in the trust are supposed to be distributed to eventual beneficiaries and the trust dissolved.
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Mullins
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by Mullins »

jbinpa59 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:02 pm Is the duration of her Trust 21 yrs past our sons lifetime?
or our grandchilds?

I believe its our Sons Lifetimes + 21yrs not our Grandchilds lifetime +21 yrs
Is that correct?
What is it that's making you think "21 years" is a factor about this trust?
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celia
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by celia »

jbinpa59 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:07 pm never delt with anyt rust accounts before and trying to help wife learn her responabilities as Trustee/Beneficiary
This is a great idea. Start by learning the terminology used in the trust.

She should write down all her questions and visit an estate planning lawyer to get them answered. The consultation may even be free, especially if she will need other legal assistance down the road. If the trust was written without using a lawyer, this is a ‘must’.

If she is the only beneficiary, it could be as simple as withdrawing money after the estate is settled and all the bills (and income taxes) are paid. If she drains the trust, then the trust can then be closed. In fact, if she owns the assets under her own name instead of in the trust, the taxes going forward will be less.
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by bsteiner »

I, too, assumed you meant revocable rather than recoverable, but please confirm that given that revocable trusts aren't commonly used in New York.

New York uses the common law rule against perpetuities, which is lives in being from the time the grantor was no longer able to amend or revoke the trust (or when the testator died), plus 21 years. The selected class of lives can't be so numerous that it can't be ascertained (such as everyone in the Manhattan telephone directory, if they still print directories). People often use the issue of the grantor or testator, or the issue of the grantor's or testator's parents, or the issue of King George V.

Connecticut used to also use the common law rule, except Connecticut offered the option of using 90 years. However, beginning January 1, 2020, the perpetuities period in Connecticut is 800 years. (There's a difference of opinion as to whether allowing perpetual trusts causes problems, so a few states changed their rule to a very long number of years rather than allowing perpetual trusts.)

I'll let others comment on whether (assuming it was a revocable trust) the grantor's move to Connecticut would allow the Connecticut period, and if so, whether the limiting language in the trust would preclude that even if you could otherwise use the Connecticut period. Perhaps that will be resolved long before the end of the common law period.

The better way to have drafted this was to say that trusts may last for the maximum permissible term. That allows for the benefit of future changes as states increase their perpetuities periods or repeal their rule against perpetuities. Also, while a Will speaks as of the date of death (so if the person didn't have a revocable trust, Connecticut's 800-year period would have applied), in the case of a revocable trust, the grantor could have avoided this issue by reviewing and then amending the trust upon the later of moving to Connecticut or when the Connecticut statute increasing the permissible term was enacted.

The good news, if the common law rule applies, is that the new grandchild counts as "in being" since persons in utero who are born alive count for this purposes.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by Lee_WSP »

How does the trust spell out the distribution schedule (if any)?

If the trust says it shall all be distributed to children when they turn 25, then it ends when they all turn 25 as the trust is distributed and thus closed.

I’m using children as a stand in, it could say anything or nothing.
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jbinpa59
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

rossington wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:47 am
jbinpa59 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:02 pm Wife inheireted from / under a Trust that specificly names her as a Primary Beneficiary
for Grantor of that trust, Death Date was in April of 2021

Wife's Trust is a succesor trust under the terms of the original trust but does not have specific language of its own
other than being titled as
"Ir-recoverable trust fbo XXXX under Art IIIB of such and such recoverable Trust dated mo/day/yr"
Fidelity has a copy of the original trust

Her "issue" our Sons are in thier 30's so alive on Original Grantors Death Date
[Our Grandchild was born June 2021 was not

Checks from Estate were issued in Sept 2021
Trust EIN was applied for and issued in Oct 2021
Self Directed Trust Account was finally opened and Funded at Fidelity today

Is the duration of her Trust 21 yrs past our sons lifetime?
or our grandchilds?

I believe its our Sons Lifetimes + 21yrs not our Grandchilds lifetime +21 yrs
Is that correct?
We have to determine if what you are saying is:
Your wife is the Successor Trustee (and sole beneficiary) of the original revocable trust and now the Trustee of the now irrevocable (not "ir-recoverable") trust.
If this is correct then the following make sense:
The EIN is necessary for the irrevocable trust.
A new trust account for the now newly created irrevocable trust would be necessary....how is the new trust account at Fidelity titled?

yes my spellings were inccorect
it was a revocable trust that became irrevocable at the Uncle/Grantors death

as stated in origunal post her Trust is titled as: and was accepted for EIN issuance purposes by IRS
" Trs FBO ---her name--- Under the terms of ArtIIIB of the Rev Trs -- Grantors Name --- Created on 9/4/2014"
that naming is a copy of the titling used by others of the 7 original trust Primary Benificiaries

so far at least Fidelity has accepted that titling / EIN / and a copy of the ORIGINAL trust as acceptable to open her trust account an has done so
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jbinpa59
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

bsteiner wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:08 pm I, too, assumed you meant revocable rather than recoverable, but please confirm that given that revocable trusts aren't commonly used in New York.

New York uses the common law rule against perpetuities, which is lives in being from the time the grantor was no longer able to amend or revoke the trust (or when the testator died), plus 21 years. The selected class of lives can't be so numerous that it can't be ascertained (such as everyone in the Manhattan telephone directory, if they still print directories). People often use the issue of the grantor or testator, or the issue of the grantor's or testator's parents, or the issue of King George V.

Connecticut used to also use the common law rule, except Connecticut offered the option of using 90 years. However, beginning January 1, 2020, the perpetuities period in Connecticut is 800 years. (There's a difference of opinion as to whether allowing perpetual trusts causes problems, so a few states changed their rule to a very long number of years rather than allowing perpetual trusts.)

I'll let others comment on whether (assuming it was a revocable trust) the grantor's move to Connecticut would allow the Connecticut period, and if so, whether the limiting language in the trust would preclude that even if you could otherwise use the Connecticut period. Perhaps that will be resolved long before the end of the common law period.

The better way to have drafted this was to say that trusts may last for the maximum permissible term. That allows for the benefit of future changes as states increase their perpetuities periods or repeal their rule against perpetuities. Also, while a Will speaks as of the date of death (so if the person didn't have a revocable trust, Connecticut's 800-year period would have applied), in the case of a revocable trust, the grantor could have avoided this issue by reviewing and then amending the trust upon the later of moving to Connecticut or when the Connecticut statute increasing the permissible term was enacted.

The good news, if the common law rule applies, is that the new grandchild counts as "in being" since persons in utero who are born alive count for this purposes.
Thank You for your responing to this bsteiner

as I confirmed to another poster yes my spellings were incorrect it should of been revocable / irrevocable trusts
original revocable trust was drafted in 2014 in NYS and specifficlly stated that, it would remain under NYS Laws
it appears to have been intended for creditor asset protection/removinging assets from taxable Estate
and was half of an A/B mirrored pair for a married couple

That Trust listed 7 Primariy Benificiaries that were all to also be where possible the Trustees of their own Trusts which If I understand things correctly requires HEMS standards
the original duration was drafted as 21yr past all KNOWN Benificiaries
as per your post

wife and I are assuming possible incorrectly that for her succesor trust is 21yr past HER latest surviving Succesor Benificiary that was alive at time of Original Trust' so our Sons or GC as the case may be
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by rossington »

jbinpa59 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:06 pm
bsteiner wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:08 pm The good news, if the common law rule applies, is that the new grandchild counts as "in being" since persons in utero who are born alive count for this purposes.

That Trust listed 7 Primariy Benificiaries that were all to also be where possible the Trustees of their own Trusts which If I understand things correctly requires HEMS standards the original duration was drafted as 21yr past all KNOWN Benificiaries
as per your post

wife and I are assuming possible incorrectly that for her succesor trust is 21yr past HER latest surviving Succesor Benificiary that was alive at time of Original Trust' so our Sons or GC as the case may be
I can see now where your wife was designated as one of 7 beneficiaries each granted their own separate trust.
Looking at bsteiner's post (quoted above) Apparently you may be looking at this correctly assuming your children and grandchildren qualified as Known Beneficiaries at the time of the Grantors death so it would be 21 years + the age of the youngest grandchild at the DOD.

Otherwise it seems to be 21 years + each of the 7 designated beneficiaries respective ages at the DOD.
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by bsteiner »

jbinpa59 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:06 pm ...
as I confirmed to another poster yes my spellings were incorrect it should of been revocable / irrevocable trusts
original revocable trust was drafted in 2014 in NYS and specificly stated that, it would remain under NYS Laws
it appears to have been intended for creditor asset protection/removing assets from taxable Estate
and was half of an A/B mirrored pair for a married couple

That Trust listed 7 Primary Beneficiaries that were all to also be where possible the Trustees of their own Trusts which If I understand things correctly requires HEMS standards
...
Except for Medicaid, using a revocable trust didn't provide any more or any less creditor protection for the beneficiaries than if the same provisions were in the Will.

Nor does a revocable trust cost or save any estate taxes compared to having the same provisions in a Will.

I prefer not to allow a trustee who's a beneficiary to participate in discretionary distributions to himself/herself for any reason. However, allowing a trustee who's a beneficiary to participate in discretionary distributions in his/her own favor won't cause any tax problems if it's limited to an ascertainable standard (health, maintenance, support and education). If he/she wants distributions for other things, a co-trustee could be added to make those distributions.

Allowing a trustee to make distributions to himself/herself for health, maintenance and support may expose the trust assets to Medicaid.

Also, if the surviving spouse ever wants Medicaid, a credit shelter trust is protected if it's in a Will but not if it's in a revocable trust.
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

bsteiner wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:36 am edited for length
Except for Medicaid, using a revocable trust didn't provide any more or any less creditor protection for the beneficiaries than if the same provisions were in the Will.

Nor does a revocable trust cost or save any estate taxes compared to having the same provisions in a Will.

I prefer not to allow a trustee who's a beneficiary to participate in discretionary distributions to himself/herself for any reason. However, allowing a trustee who's a beneficiary to participate in discretionary distributions in his/her own favor won't cause any tax problems if it's limited to an ascertainable standard (health, maintenance, support and education). If he/she wants distributions for other things, a co-trustee could be added to make those distributions.

Allowing a trustee to make distributions to himself/herself for health, maintenance and support may expose the trust assets to Medicaid.

Also, if the surviving spouse ever wants Medicaid, a credit shelter trust is protected if it's in a Will but not if it's in a revocable trust.
[/quote]

bsteiner
thanks for the information

The original trust was revocable and was drawn up for a 90+ yo couple they did what THEY chose at that time and place
but since the Grantors are now deseased it became irrevocable and my wife inhereireted her apportioned share of the original trust
with her specified as both Beneficiary AND Trustee of her share, so she understands HEMS STD applies because of being both B & T
unless she appoints another Trustee, and her Trust at <$100K is way too small to justify a Corparate Trustee

also since our net liquid wealth is over 10x the trust amount , short of major medical expeses or LTC costs burning through our funds
she is figuring she's the custodion managing the trust for her Succesor Beneficiaies not really for her own use
as there is not really much if anything she could justify spending Trust assets on for Her own use at this Time
as I have a marital obligation to support her

Or does She instead have a right to a limited % per yr for "Her Benifit" without additional accounting?

which is the correct interpretation?

its also why were trying to confirm Trust duration
if I 'm understanding correctly the duration for her sub trust, is a duration of 21yrs past lifetimes of HER last surviving Succesor Beneficiary alive at the time of the Original Grantor's Passing, so her sons/grandson lifetimes +21yr then HER trust dissolves

But that she doesnt need to be concerned about the OTHER original Primary Benificiaries Succesor Beneficiaries
(2 of which she doesn't even know in person),
Is that correct?

I would of course have prefered she had just inheireted NON trust assets and been done with it.
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by Lee_WSP »

She can look into an uneconomic trust dissolution provision, or just distribute as much of the principal as to maintain her current standard of living and deplete it within a few years.

You also seem to be making the assumption that she is limited to an ascertainable standard.

If it truly only contains 100k.
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by bsteiner »

jbinpa59 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:02 pm [...
The original trust was revocable and was drawn up for a 90+ yo couple they did what THEY chose at that time and place
but since the Grantors are now deceased it became irrevocable and my wife inherieted her apportioned share of the original trust
with her specified as both Beneficiary AND Trustee of her share, so she understands HEMS STD applies because of being both B & T
unless she appoints another Trustee, and her Trust at <$100K is way too small to justify a Corporate Trustee

also since our net liquid wealth is over 10x the trust amount, short of major medical expenses or LTC costs burning through our funds
she is figuring she's the custodian managing the trust for her Successor Beneficiaries not really for her own use
as there is not really much if anything she could justify spending Trust assets on for Her own use at this Time
as I have a marital obligation to support her

Or does She instead have a right to a limited % per yr for "Her Benefit" without additional accounting?

which is the correct interpretation?

its also why were trying to confirm Trust duration
if I 'm understanding correctly the duration for her sub trust, is a duration of 21yrs past lifetimes of HER last surviving Successor Beneficiary alive at the time of the Original Grantor's Passing, so her sons/grandson lifetimes +21yr then HER trust dissolves

But that she doesn't need to be concerned about the OTHER original Primary Beneficiaries Successor Beneficiaries
(2 of which she doesn't even know in person),
Is that correct?

I would of course have preferred she had just inherited NON trust assets and been done with it.
I agree that it generally doesn't make sense to create a trust for $100,000 unless there's a compelling reason to do so.

If you'll post the exact language of the perpetuities provision, we can tell how long it allows the trust to continue. However, it wouldn't make sense to have a different limitation for each trust. More likely each trust is limited to lives in being as of the grantor's death plus 21 years.

Given the small size of the trust, does it allow your wife to appoint (give) the trust assets to your children, or does it allow the trustees to distribute the trust assets to your children? If it's reasonably well drafted, it does.

Alternatively, New York EPTL § 7-1.19 allows a court to terminate a small trust, https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/estates-po ... -1-19.html. Courts generally allow this for trusts under $100,000, though I think they should allow it for trusts of up to a few hundred thousand dollars if no one objects.

The trust might give her the right to withdraw up to the greater of $5,000 or 5% of the value of the trust each year. A beneficiary may have that power without adverse tax consequences. You would have to check the trust agreement so see if she has that power. It was more common before the IRS issued Revenue Ruling 95-58 in 1995 which lets a grantor or testator give a beneficiary the power to remove and replace trustees (provided the replacement trustee isn't a close relative or subordinate employee).
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:29 pm She can look into an uneconomic trust dissolution provision, or just distribute as much of the principal as to maintain her current standard of living and deplete it within a few years.

You also seem to be making the assumption that she is limited to an ascertainable standard.

If it truly only contains 100k.
She's both Benificiary and Trustee , so I believe ascertainable standard/ HEMS Std would apply

yes total in Wifes trust is just under $100 k it was her share of a 7 way split, 6 shares were just under $100K @ to Grantors nieces/nephews
last share was couched as a supplemental needs trust for Grantor's slightly younger sister ( My Wifes Mother ) who is 97yo
liivng in a assistted care facility and 3 of her 4 surviving childeren had been subsidizing her with ~$2200-2400/mo between them
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

bsteiner wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:43 pm
jbinpa59 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:02 pm edited for length

[quote=bsteiner
Given the small size of the trust, does it allow your wife to appoint (give) the trust assets to your children, or does it allow the trustees to distribute the trust assets to your children? If it's reasonably well drafted, it does.

Alternatively, New York EPTL § 7-1.19 allows a court to terminate a small trust, https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/estates-po ... -1-19.html. Courts generally allow this for trusts under $100,000, though I think they should allow it for trusts of up to a few hundred thousand dollars if no one objects.

The trust might give her the right to withdraw up to the greater of $5,000 or 5% of the value of the trust each year. A beneficiary may have that power without adverse tax consequences. You would have to check the trust agreement so see if she has that power. It was more common before the IRS issued Revenue Ruling 95-58 in 1995 which lets a grantor or testator give a beneficiary the power to remove and replace trustees (provided the replacement trustee isn't a close relative or subordinate employee).
nono of those possibilties were specified in the copy of the original Trust we recieved
I think she would prefer to petition to disolve Her trust if possible
or have it skip over her to her children which have more need for it than us, or even to the grandchild if she can't disolve it

are you still practicing in NY State?
not 100% sure this whole issue is being handled in the most efficient manner, no suggestions of Intentional improper actions
but the Executer of the Estate / Original Grantor's Trustee while a Lawyer never worked in Estate Law, he was at EPA Agency
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by Lee_WSP »

jbinpa59 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:13 am
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:29 pm She can look into an uneconomic trust dissolution provision, or just distribute as much of the principal as to maintain her current standard of living and deplete it within a few years.

You also seem to be making the assumption that she is limited to an ascertainable standard.

If it truly only contains 100k.
She's both Benificiary and Trustee , so I believe ascertainable standard/ HEMS Std would apply

yes total in Wifes trust is just under $100 k it was her share of a 7 way split, 6 shares were just under $100K @ to Grantors nieces/nephews
last share was couched as a supplemental needs trust for Grantor's slightly younger sister ( My Wifes Mother ) who is 97yo
liivng in a assistted care facility and 3 of her 4 surviving childeren had been subsidizing her with ~$2200-2400/mo between them
Examples of powers which are limited by the requisite standard are powers exercisable for the holder's “support,” “support in reasonable comfort,” “maintenance in health and reasonable comfort,” “support in his accustomed manner of living,” “education, including college and professional education,” “health,” and “medical, dental, hospital and nursing expenses and expenses of invalidism.” In determining whether a power is limited by an ascertainable standard, it is immaterial whether the beneficiary is required to exhaust his other income before the power can be exercised.

26 CFR § 20.2041-1
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:38 am
previous posts edited out
Examples of powers which are limited by the requisite standard are powers exercisable for the holder's “support,” “support in reasonable comfort,” “maintenance in health and reasonable comfort,” “support in his accustomed manner of living,” “education, including college and professional education,” “health,” and “medical, dental, hospital and nursing expenses and expenses of invalidism.” In determining whether a power is limited by an ascertainable standard, it is immaterial whether the beneficiary is required to exhaust his other income before the power can be exercised.

26 CFR § 20.2041-1
[/quote]

Ok then she could use Trust $ for her copays/ins premiums / eyeglasses / etc
expenses that I have been coveering and thught I needed to continue to cover as long as reasonable funds remained to us

Wife is 60 yo and retired so college/profesional education expenses are not likely for her
but trust paperwork does specificly allowed for "recreation education" expenses such as hobby classes or learning for the sake of learning

is there a Nominal $amount / % of trust balance that she can withdraw under those standards " For Her Benefit" without issues occouring?
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by bsteiner »

jbinpa59 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:28 am ...
none of those possibilities [a power of appointment; trustee's power to distribute to her children or more remote issue]were specified in the copy of the original Trust we received

I think she would prefer to petition to dissolve Her trust if possible
or have it skip over her to her children which have more need for it than us, or even to the grandchild if she can't dissolve it

are you still practicing in NY State?

not 100% sure this whole issue is being handled in the most efficient manner, no suggestions of Intentional improper actions
but the Executor of the Estate / Original Grantor's Trustee while a Lawyer never worked in Estate Law, he was at EPA Agency
It would be unfortunate if she didn't have a power of appointment and the trustees didn't have the power to make distributions to her children or more remote issue.

Yes, I practice in New York (as well as New Jersey and Florida). Some states, but not New York, allow the trustees to terminate trusts under a certain amount ($50,000 in Florida or $100,000 in New Jersey) without court approval. The New York statute allows the court to terminate a small trust, but doesn't define "small" for this purpose. When we looked at this some time ago, the consensus was that it would be relatively easy to get court approval for a trust under $100,000 but not for a trust over $100,000. My guess is that the test is still $100,000.

Executors and trustees need not be lawyers. They may hire lawyers, accountants, appraisers, or others, as they think best.

Finally, the lawyer handling the grantor's estate might have pointed out that your wife could have disclaimed her interest within 9 months after your grantor's death, in which case (unless the trust agreement provided otherwise) her share would have passed as if she had predeceased the grantor.
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by Lee_WSP »

jbinpa59 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:30 am Ok then she could use Trust $ for her copays/ins premiums / eyeglasses / etc
expenses that I have been coveering and thught I needed to continue to cover as long as reasonable funds remained to us

Wife is 60 yo and retired so college/profesional education expenses are not likely for her
but trust paperwork does specificly allowed for "recreation education" expenses such as hobby classes or learning for the sake of learning

is there a Nominal $amount / % of trust balance that she can withdraw under those standards " For Her Benefit" without issues occouring?
This is getting too close to actual legal advice for me to answer directly. Perhaps a call to an attorney in your state will help clarify exactly what she can do as far as how much she may withdraw under the HEMS standard.

I will say this. The standard does not require you to look at the corpus of the trust. It only looks at the beneficiary's current standard of living. It's not as exacting of a standard as you are making it out to be. She certainly cannot go out and buy a Ferrari, but the value of the items you've mentioned are so far within the standard as to be a "of she can withdraw that".
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Re: Duration of a trust?

Post by jbinpa59 »

bsteiner
and
Lee_WSP

Thankyou both for taking the time to explain these matters

bsteiner
Wife wishes to discuss this situation with her family before going any further,
She is considering a request to disolve the trust allowing her full control and usage
but feels that wasn't what her Uncle the Grantor wanted and as such is hesitant to do so

Lee_WSP
At this point I'm just trying to determine how/ to what amout she's allowed to use the funds
I'm probable thinking overly narrowly about the allowed expensies under the HEMS std

and the least costly method of administering her trust

the original question of the trust duration was answered several post ago
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