Are BH save too much for retirement

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WhiteMaxima
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Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by WhiteMaxima »

I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
sailaway
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by sailaway »

You missed all the posts on 4% vs VPW, AA vs LMP, etc?! Not sure which forum you are actually reading in that case!
Last edited by sailaway on Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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retired@50
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by retired@50 »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Maybe this wiki page will help...
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Safe_withdrawal_rates

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
Whitecap
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Whitecap »

sailaway wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:05 pm You missed all.the posts on 4% vs VPW, AA vs LMP, etc?! Not sure which forum you are actually reading in that case!
:sharebeer
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JoeRetire
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by JoeRetire »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
I withdraw what I need. And I spend what I want.

Not a real fancy plan, but it seems to work out just fine.
Just remember: it's not a lie if you believe it.
wrongfunds
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by wrongfunds »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Please provide a proof where somebody was asking if "Is xxx million enough?" and the first two "xx"s were non-zero. I want to see that!
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Wiggums
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Wiggums »

We saved well, and now we have the freedom to spend as we see fit. We use Quicken to track our expenses, because it makes it easy to find out when you replaced that air conditioner, fir example.
Investors need to be better informed about the costs they pay. “High fund fees can be hazardous to your wealth in the same way that high calories can be hazardous for your health.”
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JoeRetire
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by JoeRetire »

wrongfunds wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:42 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Please provide a proof where somebody was asking if "Is xxx million enough?" and the first two "xx"s were non-zero. I want to see that!
Proof:
Is 110 million enough?

You're welcome.
Just remember: it's not a lie if you believe it.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:47 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:42 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Please provide a proof where somebody was asking if "Is xxx million enough?" and the first two "xx"s were non-zero. I want to see that!
Proof:
Is 110 million enough?

You're welcome.
Come on! This is the Bogleheads forum, you need to save more. :P
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
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retired@50
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by retired@50 »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:47 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:42 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Please provide a proof where somebody was asking if "Is xxx million enough?" and the first two "xx"s were non-zero. I want to see that!
Proof:
Is 110 million enough?

You're welcome.
I think wrongfunds was asking for a link to a thread that asked "Is $110 million enough"...

Without such a thread, the request has not been met.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Sandtrap »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
What is most important is how a retirement personal financial strategy works “for you”.

Thus, it’s good to post a portfolio review in forum format for comprehensive input that might help you specifically.

IE: Perhaps a 4% Annual withdrawal rate at age 65 for one person with 50 X in annual retirement expenses in a portfolio might be great for that person, but not another.

j🌺
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
LittleMaggieMae
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

You only save too much if you don't have a goal or know how much you will need?

(the only people I know in real life who "saved too much" for retirement didn't realize they had done so until they started figuring out how their retirement would actually play out - usually 12 to 18 months before they turned 65. Kind of sucks when you aren't paying attention to (or avoiding out of fear) your retirement finances and find out you could have "retired" 3 to 5 years sooner....)
Normchad
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Normchad »

I’m certain a lot of us will save too much. If I die with a dime in my pocket, then I saved too much.

The future is very uncertain. I don’t know how long I will live. I don’t know how much I will need to spend. I don’t know how well my portfolio will do. Nobody does. Since nobody wants to be destitute, We save and invest a lot to,provide a significant cushion. This accounts for what I believe are likely worst case scenarios. The downside of this is, I over save.

If you use the strict 4% SWR, I think you are far more likely to die with more than you started,then you are to die broke. So that’s how it is.

However, there are lots of fantastic threads on here about various approaches to spending it all down. Also, BigERN and Kitces have done some really great write ups on that topic. (I’m on the VPW bandwagon, you can read about VPW in the wiki)

I agree in general, it’s not discussed much outside of these forums. I assume it’s because most people don’t have enough, so they don’t need to agonize over it.
goblue100
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by goblue100 »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Seriously? There are all kind of withdrawal threads:
viewtopic.php?p=6221047#p6221047
viewtopic.php?t=316555
viewtopic.php?t=322413

This is only a few that I found by searching. There are hundreds more.
Financial planners are savers. They want us to be 95 percent confident we can finance a 30-year retirement even though there is an 82 percent probability of being dead by then. - Scott Burns
Trader Joe
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Trader Joe »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
"Are BH save too much for retirement"

Yes, I am. By design.
wcinnn
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by wcinnn »

!n the accumulation phase we lived below our means and in retirement we spend below our means. Hopefully our kids have learned and will follow a similar path. Lucky heirs and charities.
hoofaman
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by hoofaman »

If you save $4 million as a married couple, it means you get to keep $1-2m in the event of a divorce
chazas
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by chazas »

hoofaman wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:30 pm If you save $4 million as a married couple, it means you get to keep $1-2m in the event of a divorce
I’m painfully aware.
jarjarM
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by jarjarM »

hoofaman wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:30 pm If you save $4 million as a married couple, it means you get to keep $1-2m in the event of a divorce
So if someone really wants $5mil for retirement, they'll need to save $10mil :oops: I guess this is BH after all.
Wannaretireearly
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Wannaretireearly »

LittleMaggieMae wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:00 pm You only save too much if you don't have a goal or know how much you will need?

(the only people I know in real life who "saved too much" for retirement didn't realize they had done so until they started figuring out how their retirement would actually play out - usually 12 to 18 months before they turned 65. Kind of sucks when you aren't paying attention to (or avoiding out of fear) your retirement finances and find out you could have "retired" 3 to 5 years sooner....)
Following this forum allows one to Guage the safe zone.
Topics like really understanding X, 33 to 40X being good for ER etc help some of us triangulate what the DMZ is. Once reached it should represent freedom. So, I'd say most BH's who want to retire (early or not) benefit by saving roughly the right amount.
Death and taxes. Only one is under your control!
wrongfunds
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by wrongfunds »

retired@50 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:54 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:47 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:42 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Please provide a proof where somebody was asking if "Is xxx million enough?" and the first two "xx"s were non-zero. I want to see that!
Proof:
Is 110 million enough?

You're welcome.
I think wrongfunds was asking for a link to a thread that asked "Is $110 million enough"...

Without such a thread, the request has not been met.

Regards,
I think Joe provided a self-referential thread aka he himself asked that question but I think his timing is NOT right. The timestamp of Joe's question needs to be earlier than my query. May be he can back date it?

Anyway, I am answering his question in true BH style

Joe,

Have you considered the health insurance costs?
How about long term care?
Of course, what are your fixed and discretionary expenses?
What if the market crashes?
My advice would be to save few more years before retiring.

Hope that helps.
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Kenkat
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Kenkat »

You have to save too much to insure that you haven’t saved too little. Or, you have to save too much and die rich to insure that you don’t die poor.
Topic Author
WhiteMaxima
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by WhiteMaxima »

My financial engine says my retirement annual total income will be more than what I earn today in today's dollar. I am happy but also worry tax situation. I am not planning to pass too much to my children buy considering mega 529 for their children.
phxjcc
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by phxjcc »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:47 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:42 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Please provide a proof where somebody was asking if "Is xxx million enough?" and the first two "xx"s were non-zero. I want to see that!
Proof:
Is 110 million enough?

You're welcome.
But I NEED $4.401 million per year and I am afraid of running out of money!
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mrspock
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by mrspock »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
In short: yes. Statistically (because the worst most here plane for just won’t happen) half of the folks on here are probably saving money to fund “bad habits” of a future generation, and first class travel for those who have no idea what it takes to earn the privilege they will enjoy.

I’m guilty of this as well. If I live a long life, and maintain my current spending, my heirs will inherit a pretty obscene amount of money (tens of millions courtesy of compounding). I consider it my job in retirement too ensure this never happens. :twisted:
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WhiteMaxima
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by WhiteMaxima »

phxjcc wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:28 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:47 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:42 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Please provide a proof where somebody was asking if "Is xxx million enough?" and the first two "xx"s were non-zero. I want to see that!
Proof:
Is 110 million enough?

You're welcome.
But I NEED $4.401 million per year and I am afraid of running out of money!
two person, one has one million, another has four million, all spend 800k before they die, The remaining is meaning less to them. I see many children use inherit to fund their lifestyle which they didn't earn.
marcopolo
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by marcopolo »

jarjarM wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:32 pm
hoofaman wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:30 pm If you save $4 million as a married couple, it means you get to keep $1-2m in the event of a divorce
So if someone really wants $5mil for retirement, they'll need to save $10mil :oops: I guess this is BH after all.
Better make it $15m, after the lawyers get their cut.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
retire2022
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by retire2022 »

op

My portfolio at 61, recently retired topped out 2.63 million, over saving gave me this portfolio, mr market in post internet crash gave me 200K in March of 2000.

What a recovery and total contributions to retirement accounts approx 600K.

I don't regret it one bit, I had fun, traveled accross the USA eight times by car.

When I was young portfolio could not predicted present outcome.

RMD if pretax account remains the same value of 1.6 million will be 127K at 3 million it will be 257K at 72.
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WhiteMaxima
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by WhiteMaxima »

retire2022 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:05 pm op

My portfolio at 61, recently retired topped out 2.63 million, over saving gave me this portfolio, mr market in post internet crash gave me 200K in March of 2000.

What a recovery and total contributions to retirement accounts approx 600K.

I don't regret it one bit, I had fun, traveled accross the USA eight times by car.

When I was young portfolio could not predicted present outcome.

RMD if pretax account remains the same value of 1.6 million will be 127K at 3 million it will be 257K at 72.
I am younger than you. I started saving early and thanks to mr market I didn't sell in Y2K, 2008 and 2020. My portfolio based on 4% will push us into higher tax bracket into higher if not less than current level. I am doing mege backdoor Roth in my 401k before it is closed. Time still on my side to enjoy my saving and do Roth conversion. I don't think a 5mil portfolio in tIRA is necessary for my lifestyle and it troubles me quite bit for tax reason. Plus I have pension SS which will cover my basic life need. I traveled many counties in the world and booked another trip to EU during Christmas season. I
Wannaretireearly
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Wannaretireearly »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:48 pm
jarjarM wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:32 pm
hoofaman wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:30 pm If you save $4 million as a married couple, it means you get to keep $1-2m in the event of a divorce
So if someone really wants $5mil for retirement, they'll need to save $10mil :oops: I guess this is BH after all.
Better make it $15m, after the lawyers get their cut.
RMD's will suck. You'll need twice that amount to get over the pain!
Death and taxes. Only one is under your control!
smectym
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by smectym »

retired@50 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:54 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:47 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:42 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm I'v seen so many post on saving for retirement but not enough on withdraw plan post. Is xxx million enough? I have yet to see good post on good withdraw and spending plan post.
Please provide a proof where somebody was asking if "Is xxx million enough?" and the first two "xx"s were non-zero. I want to see that!
Proof:
Is 110 million enough?

You're welcome.
I think wrongfunds was asking for a link to a thread that asked "Is $110 million enough"...

Without such a thread, the request has not been met.

Regards,
Probably JoeRetired’s idea of a joke. His instant post asking about 110 million *is* the link, ha ha
phxjcc
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by phxjcc »

I think that the OP is asking for an instruction booklet.

Actually, I would like to see such a “how-to” explanation as well.

There are (too) many threads on accumulation priorities, but in my not so humble opinion not enough on disbursements.

In this case, if they each have 1 mm and 4 mm, then what should be the order of disbursement and what factors must be taken into account.

Saying, “just read the SWR thread” is analogous to telling an accumulator “just save 15%”.

I am not smart enough to add value here—and apologies for my flippant remark.
placeholder
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by placeholder »

I have a lot more than I will probably need but there's no place you can look up exactly how much you will require in retirement because you don't know what the economy will do nor what your personal circumstances will be.
Last edited by placeholder on Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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vanbogle59
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by vanbogle59 »

hoofaman wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:30 pm If you save $4 million as a married couple, it means you get to keep $1-2m in the event of a divorce
That's assuming you only get divorced once. :D

I don't have this worry. DW tells me she is willing to enforce the "till death do us part" clause, should the need ever arise.
:twisted:
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Re: Are BH save too much for retirement

Post by Alex Frakt »

Locked. The original post doesn't appear to contain a personal and actionable issue. See A reminder that non-investing general comment threads are OT for more information.
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