Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

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Working2notWork
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Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Working2notWork »

Good afternoon,

I've been on vacation for the last week and have been talking with family members who've suggested that I speak with "their guy" when we've discussed financials - 529's, Roth conversions, etc. My B-I-L is in the business so we talk about that kind of stuff frequently (his mega-corp charges 1% AUM which is why I don't go with them)

Today, I called Vanguard to ask about their services - I am looking for general guidance (which I could get here) and tax avoidance guidance - and they said that they do not offer the services I am looking for, but that their 'managed assets team' does and that it's only .30% AUM. It makes me wonder why ONLY their AUM team offers those services, but will not provide them to others at an hourly rate.

After thinking about this for a while, it lead me to the following questions:

1. Does anyone here use Vanguards PAS services, and could you go over the pro's/con's?
2. Was anyone able to find a fee-only advisor that they were happy with? I've looked into previous threads and most seemed unsatisfied by their services.


Thanks!!
inverter
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by inverter »

Are you sure you need an advisor? How complicated are your finances?
Topic Author
Working2notWork
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Working2notWork »

inverter wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:37 pm Are you sure you need an advisor? How complicated are your finances?
I wouldn't say they were complicated, but I'd love a second set of eyes to see if we're making the right decisions. There are three basic questions we are looking to answer:

1. Should we contribute to a 529 in our state, given the funds of choice and expenses associated with them (Is the state write off worth it)?
2. Unfort. we are salaried out from contributing to a roth. What other options are there for us to be able to save that have tax benefits? Is there anything that can be done to bring my salary down to allow us to contribute?
3. At what age *can* I retire?
Silk McCue
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Silk McCue »

Check out Mark Zoril and planvisionmn.com. A ridiculously low cost solution with sane and sensible advice.

You have absolutely nothing to lose and possibly much to gain. Just a few weeks back the the Tampa Bay and South FL Chapters hosted a joint (Zoom) meeting with guests Mark Zoril and Jason Lynch demo'ing the Planvision service (and eMoney platform).

viewtopic.php?p=6092735#p6092735

Cheers
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Wiggums
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Wiggums »

Silk McCue wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:51 pm Check out Mark Zoril and planvisionmn.com. A ridiculously low cost solution with sane and sensible advice.

You have absolutely nothing to lose and possibly much to gain. Just a few weeks back the the Tampa Bay and South FL Chapters hosted a joint (Zoom) meeting with guests Mark Zoril and Jason Lynch demo'ing the Planvision service (and eMoney platform).

viewtopic.php?p=6092735#p6092735

Cheers
The meeting was a great overview of what services his company does and does not offer. This is a great suggestion.
Investors need to be better informed about the costs they pay. “High fund fees can be hazardous to your wealth in the same way that high calories can be hazardous for your health.”
Topic Author
Working2notWork
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Working2notWork »

Silk McCue wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:51 pm Check out Mark Zoril and planvisionmn.com. A ridiculously low cost solution with sane and sensible advice.

You have absolutely nothing to lose and possibly much to gain. Just a few weeks back the the Tampa Bay and South FL Chapters hosted a joint (Zoom) meeting with guests Mark Zoril and Jason Lynch demo'ing the Planvision service (and eMoney platform).

viewtopic.php?p=6092735#p6092735

Cheers
I watched some of the video and it seems like they're in the same league as Personal Capital. Their demo has a similar look and feel for sure.
tj
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by tj »

Working2notWork wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:27 pm
Silk McCue wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:51 pm Check out Mark Zoril and planvisionmn.com. A ridiculously low cost solution with sane and sensible advice.

You have absolutely nothing to lose and possibly much to gain. Just a few weeks back the the Tampa Bay and South FL Chapters hosted a joint (Zoom) meeting with guests Mark Zoril and Jason Lynch demo'ing the Planvision service (and eMoney platform).

viewtopic.php?p=6092735#p6092735

Cheers
I watched some of the video and it seems like they're in the same league as Personal Capital. Their demo has a similar look and feel for sure.
Not even close. PersonalCapital charges like 1% for their advice.
heyyou
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by heyyou »

I will send a PM to identify my fee-only advisor.
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Sandi_k
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Sandi_k »

Working2notWork wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:46 pm
2. Unfort. we are salaried out from contributing to a roth. What other options are there for us to be able to save that have tax benefits? Is there anything that can be done to bring my salary down to allow us to contribute?
Back door Roth.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth
esteen
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by esteen »

I agree with the prior poster re: PlanVision. I also think that what you need is not any sort of AUM advisor (not even PAS), because you don't have ongoing money management needs. You seem to have one-time or infrequent questions. These would be best handled by an hourly advice-only advisor.

Rick Ferri and Allan Roth are two such advisors that are highly respected around the forums.

-es
dbr
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by dbr »

esteen wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:13 am I agree with the prior poster re: PlanVision. I also think that what you need is not any sort of AUM advisor (not even PAS), because you don't have ongoing money management needs. You seem to have one-time or infrequent questions. These would be best handled by an hourly advice-only advisor.

Rick Ferri and Allan Roth are two such advisors that are highly respected around the forums.

-es
Yes, people should be clear whether the need is planning and advice or the need is investment management. A lot of people have good plans but either don't want to do the management or worry about their survivors not being able to do the management. Other people are fine with managing things but don't know what to do.

Whether VPAS, which does some of both, really does everything any given investor needs is a discussion.
ScottyDog
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by ScottyDog »

Working2notWork wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:29 pm Good afternoon,

I've been on vacation for the last week and have been talking with family members who've suggested that I speak with "their guy" when we've discussed financials - 529's, Roth conversions, etc. My B-I-L is in the business so we talk ab without that kind of stuff frequently (his mega-corp charges 1% AUM which is why I don't go with them)

Today, I called Vanguard to ask about their services - I am looking for general guidance (which I could get here) and tax avoidance guidance - and they said that they do not offer the services I am looking for, but that their 'managed assets team' does and that it's only .30% AUM. It makes me wonder why ONLY their AUM team offers those services, but will not provide them to others at an hourly rate.

After thinking about this for a while, it lead me to the following questions:

1. Does anyone here use Vanguards PAS services, and could you go over the pro's/con's?
2. Was anyone able to find a fee-only advisor that they were happy with? I've looked into previous threads and most seemed unsatisfied by their services.


Thanks!!
Being in a large Southeastern city we have a local Fidelity office. I have decided probably to transfer $$ to them from VG...local in-person service at no cost, bonus $ to move money, will use their low/no cost index funds, widow will have personal service, PAS costs $3,000 per year on a $1m portfolio with only phone service(if you can get through to them). Didn't find much around for hourly local advise..most happy to charge you the 1% or so AUM fees.
Cara
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Cara »

ScottyDog wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:26 am
Being in a large Southeastern city we have a local Fidelity office.
ScottyDog, if you don't mind, I am PM'ing you for more info.

Thanks
Topic Author
Working2notWork
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Working2notWork »

Sandi_k wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:48 am
Working2notWork wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:46 pm
2. Unfort. we are salaried out from contributing to a roth. What other options are there for us to be able to save that have tax benefits? Is there anything that can be done to bring my salary down to allow us to contribute?
Back door Roth.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth
Unfort. I already have a Traditional IRA setup which, if I'm reading the description correctly, I would then have to move all the money over to the roth as we cannot distinguish between whats non-deductible vs deductible. Again, I'm quickly reading the wiki, not fully understanding how it all works
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retired@50
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by retired@50 »

Working2notWork wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:33 pm
Sandi_k wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:48 am
Working2notWork wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:46 pm
2. Unfort. we are salaried out from contributing to a roth. What other options are there for us to be able to save that have tax benefits? Is there anything that can be done to bring my salary down to allow us to contribute?
Back door Roth.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth
Unfort. I already have a Traditional IRA setup which, if I'm reading the description correctly, I would then have to move all the money over to the roth as we cannot distinguish between whats non-deductible vs deductible. Again, I'm quickly reading the wiki, not fully understanding how it all works
Can you roll your existing Traditional IRA into your workplace 401k plan?

Before doing so, check with the 401k plan to see if it's even allowed. If so, also think twice about it ** IF ** your current 401k plan has high fees and high expense ratio funds.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
Topic Author
Working2notWork
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Working2notWork »

retired@50 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:45 pm
Working2notWork wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:33 pm
Sandi_k wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:48 am
Working2notWork wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:46 pm
2. Unfort. we are salaried out from contributing to a roth. What other options are there for us to be able to save that have tax benefits? Is there anything that can be done to bring my salary down to allow us to contribute?
Back door Roth.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth
Unfort. I already have a Traditional IRA setup which, if I'm reading the description correctly, I would then have to move all the money over to the roth as we cannot distinguish between whats non-deductible vs deductible. Again, I'm quickly reading the wiki, not fully understanding how it all works
Can you roll your existing Traditional IRA into your workplace 401k plan?

Before doing so, check with the 401k plan to see if it's even allowed. If so, also think twice about it ** IF ** your current 401k plan has high fees and high expense ratio funds.

Regards,
I inquired about it and it IS possible, however they have a moderate set of fee's which I do not want to pay just to do this...
Last edited by Working2notWork on Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GmanJeff
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by GmanJeff »

ScottyDog wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:26 am PAS costs $3,000 per year on a $1m portfolio with only phone service(if you can get through to them).
You can schedule calls with your PAS advisor using the on-line scheduling tool, usually within a few days or sooner.

OP: There are many prior threads on this site about PAS. Some respondents have experience with the service while many who offer comments do not and are sometimes ill-informed about it.

Not to fall into a bandwagon fallacy, but with reportedly over $200B under management, more than a few clients seem to find value in the service.

You can always discuss your requirements with PAS without any cost or commitment, to help you decide if the value proposition makes sense for you.
BMWrider1986
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by BMWrider1986 »

My experience with VG PAS was less than satisfying. I opened with “Anyone can make money in an up market, how do you handle a down market”.

They refused to answer that question. It went downhill from there…
“The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” - John C. Bogle
illumination
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by illumination »

FWIW, my experience is the "expensive" advisors that have an AUM model of 1%-2% aren't any better. Even if their services were 100% free, your time would be better spent here.

My guess is the Vanguard PAS is basically just deciding what percent of equities to bonds you want to be in and them putting you in the appropriate funds. And talking you out of doing something rash in a panic. I doubt you'll get anything truly cutting edge. Maybe open a small account with the service and see what you think? For most people here, it would be largely worthless, but at least it's relatively cheap and will follow the basics.

Something like an hourly fee type advisor would probably be best (Rick Ferri?)
https://rickferri.com/
Matt228822
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Matt228822 »

I had my mother sign up for VPAS in 2017 after her divorce and seeing what my parent's advisor had them in prior. She knows next to nothing about investing and has been very happy.

Pros:
-When she signed up she had >1m and so has had the same advisor since.
-Easy to get in touch via email or setting up phone conversation. Will also schedule regular meetings with her.
-Low cost admiral funds, broadly diversified portfolio.
-Tax efficient placement and did some tax lost harvesting back in March of last year
-He has helped give her reasonable advice about retirement/spending/etc
-Helps with behavioral aspect and staying the course

Cons:
-Transferring in an inherited IRA when my grandma passed was a huge pain. Not really the advisors fault, more about issues with vanguard as other's have posted before
-Remote conversations - depends how big of an issue this is for you
-Advisor could change at anytime
- 0.3% AUM - small but still more then doing it yourself
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retired@50
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by retired@50 »

BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:07 pm
...I opened with “Anyone can make money in an up market, how do you handle a down market”.

They refused to answer that question. It went downhill from there…
Your comment makes it sound as if you were expecting VG PAS to pick stocks and/or funds for you, and then actively manage or change things during a downturn to avoid losses.

From what I understand, PAS generally uses a low-expense ratio, broad-market index ETF approach. The only thing I would expect them to do in a "down market" is re-balance and talk their clients out of any mistakes like "going to cash" or selling all stock funds.

You might find this post interesting: viewtopic.php?p=5326127#p5326127

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
BMWrider1986
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by BMWrider1986 »

I wanted to know their philosophy before I turned control over to them. As it turns out, there is a VG playbook they follow which appears to have very little wiggle room.

I have found the members of this forum much more informative and enlightening. I can read the pros and cons of various strategies. I have found it most engaging.
“The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” - John C. Bogle
Matt228822
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Matt228822 »

BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:56 pm I wanted to know their philosophy before I turned control over to them. As it turns out, there is a VG playbook they follow which appears to have very little wiggle room.

I have found the members of this forum much more informative and enlightening. I can read the pros and cons of various strategies. I have found it most engaging.
Agreed there is very little wiggle room. They will rebalance, tax loss harvest, provide support in downturn. All while sticking to a low cost broadly diversified global ETF portfolio. I of course see this as a huge positive. They have a reasonable investment philosophy that they stick to and if you don't agree then you aren't a good match for them in the same way a "3 fund boglehead" would not be a good match for a firm heavily focused on value, momentum, alternatives, etc.

There are many reasonable roads to Dublin, you just want to agree with your advisor on what road to take. Or do it yourself of course.
tibbitts
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by tibbitts »

BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:56 pm I wanted to know their philosophy before I turned control over to them. As it turns out, there is a VG playbook they follow which appears to have very little wiggle room.

I have found the members of this forum much more informative and enlightening. I can read the pros and cons of various strategies. I have found it most engaging.
Would you expect different PAS advisers to produce significantly different recommendations for clients with similar characteristics? How would "wiggle room" manifest itself? While there are certainly some topics where Bogleheads have varying opinions, how would that translate in an adviser relationship? Should the adviser present all or most of the possible alternatives? My guess is that most PAS-appropriate clients would be intimidated by the discussions over topics like tilts, whether to take risk only on the equity side, whether Roth conversions are worthwhile, etc. Boglehead discussions might be "engaging" for you, but that probably means you're not an appropriate customer for any adviser, much less PAS.

I assume you wouldn't want an adviser to claim he/she could offer you any portfolio protection in a down market. How were you expecting him/her to repsond?
hnd
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by hnd »

My buddy wanted some podcasts. I knew he was blowing money on fees (american fund portfolio) and other mangament costs. I sent him "Talking Real Money" with Don Macdonald and he ended up calling Vestory for a free consultation. He then decided to give it a try. He's been happy for a few years "using" them. as in managing it on his own and calling them each year or when something changes.
stan1
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by stan1 »

hnd wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:15 pm My buddy wanted some podcasts. I knew he was blowing money on fees (american fund portfolio) and other mangament costs. I sent him "Talking Real Money" with Don Macdonald and he ended up calling Vestory for a free consultation. He then decided to give it a try. He's been happy for a few years "using" them. as in managing it on his own and calling them each year or when something changes.
What is their fee structure? I looked through their website and couldn't find a fee structure posted. Maybe I missed it?
BMWrider1986
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by BMWrider1986 »

The members of this forum have:

a) Asked thought provoking questions.

b) Provided historical context on why you may or may not want to to something.

c) Reading their opinions/reasons on other forum topics on why they do or do not do select certain MFs or ETFs.

If someone gives an explanation for what they do, it provides me more insight instead of “Because this is how we do things”.

For me, it is all about trust.
“The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” - John C. Bogle
niagara_guy
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by niagara_guy »

You said you have both before tax and after tax money in your t-IRA. Please do a Boglehead search on 8606 (use the search box in the upper left corner), which is the form you need to be filing (I assume you haven't already done this). You will need to know how much was contributed after tax to your t-IRA (money that you contributed for a tax year but didn't deduct on your taxes).
hnd
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by hnd »

stan1 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm
hnd wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:15 pm My buddy wanted some podcasts. I knew he was blowing money on fees (american fund portfolio) and other mangament costs. I sent him "Talking Real Money" with Don Macdonald and he ended up calling Vestory for a free consultation. He then decided to give it a try. He's been happy for a few years "using" them. as in managing it on his own and calling them each year or when something changes.
What is their fee structure? I looked through their website and couldn't find a fee structure posted. Maybe I missed it?
i'm not sure I can ask him. I believe he paid like a $1000-1500 for the initial consult and then pays by the hour for a 2 hour meeting each year. I am not certain.
tibbitts
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by tibbitts »

BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:27 pm The members of this forum have:

a) Asked thought provoking questions.

b) Provided historical context on why you may or may not want to to something.

c) Reading their opinions/reasons on other forum topics on why they do or do not do select certain MFs or ETFs.

If someone gives an explanation for what they do, it provides me more insight instead of “Because this is how we do things”.

For me, it is all about trust.
Which is why PAS isn't for you. Bogleheads generally discuss investing for a hobby; nobody is on the clock (well some embers might be on somebody else's clock who isn't watching too closely - but there is no Boglehead clock) so we can drone on nearly forever about why we would do this or that, argue endlessly, etc. If you added up all the replies to most questions, it would take one person hours to consider all the possible alternatives and generate all the possible responses. I assume you know that back when Vanguard advisers routinely recommended active funds along with index funds (and now may again, as we've discussed here), they took quite a beating from Bogleheads for not universally sticking to a three-index-fund portfolio (which was more popular then - there were fewer two-fund enthusiasts around, and now we've got more than a few one-funder types.) So what would there have been for them to say about a three-fund portfolio other than "that's what we do"...? I'm pretty sure the advisers had something to say back then about the active funds they chose, but almost universally, Bogleheads didn't want to hear it (and might have a chance to not want to hear it again in the near future.)

Having worked with moderately complicated issues in a customer service environment - almost always without a clock involved - my experience was that it can be pretty difficult to determine how much detail to provide to a client. The majority of them needed assistance because they couldn't do something themselves. So I could either talk them through the different alternatives that would solve their problem, and maybe then talk them through how to make the necessary changes themselves (which they usually had the capability of doing), or just decide and make the changes for them. Percentage-wise, most customers wanted the latter. My guess is that PAS has a similar mix of client sentiment. And it can be a little difficult to know when you should shift gears after a half-dozen consecutive discussions with customers who just want their account set up in a reasonable way.
Cara
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Cara »

stan1 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm
hnd wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:15 pm My buddy wanted some podcasts. I knew he was blowing money on fees (american fund portfolio) and other mangament costs. I sent him "Talking Real Money" with Don Macdonald and he ended up calling Vestory for a free consultation. He then decided to give it a try. He's been happy for a few years "using" them. as in managing it on his own and calling them each year or when something changes.
What is their fee structure? I looked through their website and couldn't find a fee structure posted. Maybe I missed it?
Curious about this firm, I searched and found: "Our full-service Vestory advisory fees start at 1% per year and our account minimum is $250,000. The annual fee declines to only 0.5% on assets above $1 million." See https://vestory.com/disclosures/
Last edited by Cara on Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stan1
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by stan1 »

Cara wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:02 pm
stan1 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm
hnd wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:15 pm My buddy wanted some podcasts. I knew he was blowing money on fees (american fund portfolio) and other mangament costs. I sent him "Talking Real Money" with Don Macdonald and he ended up calling Vestory for a free consultation. He then decided to give it a try. He's been happy for a few years "using" them. as in managing it on his own and calling them each year or when something changes.
What is their fee structure? I looked through their website and couldn't find a fee structure posted. Maybe I missed it?
Curious about this firm, I searched and found: "Our full-service Vestory advisory fees start at 1% per year and our account minimum is $250,000. The annual fee declines to only 0.5% on assets above $1 million." See https://vestory.com/disclosures/
You are a better searcher than me! Why would I think to look on the disclosure tab not the "our services" tab to find the fee structure? :oops:
BMWrider1986
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by BMWrider1986 »

Thank you tibbitts. My background was in large scale computer application design and programming. The devil has always been in the details.

If I predecease my wife, then VG PAS will definitely be in the mix.
“The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” - John C. Bogle
placeholder
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by placeholder »

BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:07 pm My experience with VG PAS was less than satisfying. I opened with “Anyone can make money in an up market, how do you handle a down market”.

They refused to answer that question. It went downhill from there…
They don't manage the money like that they come up with an allocation and implement it with index funds so the only thing they would do in a down market is rebalance.
dbr
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by dbr »

placeholder wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:32 am
BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:07 pm My experience with VG PAS was less than satisfying. I opened with “Anyone can make money in an up market, how do you handle a down market”.

They refused to answer that question. It went downhill from there…
They don't manage the money like that they come up with an allocation and implement it with index funds so the only thing they would do in a down market is rebalance.
This is a really important point. The idea that you don't "manage" that sort of thing as such is critical to the whole approach of investing as, for example, generally advocated on this forum, and as practiced by Vanguard in setting up a plan. More specifically the setting up of an allocation plan "manages" all the scenarios in advance. But the question is what is the rep at VPAS supposed to say to educate a potential client who does not understand the basic concepts of the approach. I suppose he could have started to talk about understanding risk, return, rebalancing, and so on, but that is a book and not a conversation.
stan1
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by stan1 »

placeholder wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:32 am
BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:07 pm My experience with VG PAS was less than satisfying. I opened with “Anyone can make money in an up market, how do you handle a down market”.

They refused to answer that question. It went downhill from there…
They don't manage the money like that they come up with an allocation and implement it with index funds so the only thing they would do in a down market is rebalance.
Above is a good answer for PAS and I'm surprised the PAS advisor wasn't prepared to answer in that simple way (rebalance to asset allocation). I don't know if that's the answer OP would want to hear. If he wants "tactical asset allocation" or similar market timing approach he'd want to use a different advisor who uses such a strategy. PAS doesn't do that.
dbr
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by dbr »

stan1 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:48 am
placeholder wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:32 am
BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:07 pm My experience with VG PAS was less than satisfying. I opened with “Anyone can make money in an up market, how do you handle a down market”.

They refused to answer that question. It went downhill from there…
They don't manage the money like that they come up with an allocation and implement it with index funds so the only thing they would do in a down market is rebalance.
Above is a good answer for PAS and I'm surprised the PAS advisor wasn't prepared to answer in that simple way (rebalance to asset allocation). I don't know if that's the answer OP would want to hear. If he wants "tactical asset allocation" or similar market timing approach he'd want to use a different advisor who uses such a strategy. PAS doesn't do that.
It is possible that explaining that they set an asset allocation and rebalance would classify as refusing to answer the question. It is also possible the caliber of employee Vanguard puts on the phone is such that a question like that would fluster them into silence or evasiveness. I hope that is not what happened. A CSR should never allow a conversation to arrive at the conclusion that he refused to answer a question.
BMWrider1986
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by BMWrider1986 »

dbr wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:52 am
stan1 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:48 am
placeholder wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:32 am
BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:07 pm My experience with VG PAS was less than satisfying. I opened with “Anyone can make money in an up market, how do you handle a down market”.

They refused to answer that question. It went downhill from there…
They don't manage the money like that they come up with an allocation and implement it with index funds so the only thing they would do in a down market is rebalance.
Above is a good answer for PAS and I'm surprised the PAS advisor wasn't prepared to answer in that simple way (rebalance to asset allocation). I don't know if that's the answer OP would want to hear. If he wants "tactical asset allocation" or similar market timing approach he'd want to use a different advisor who uses such a strategy. PAS doesn't do that.
It is possible that explaining that they set an asset allocation and rebalance would classify as refusing to answer the question. It is also possible the caliber of employee Vanguard puts on the phone is such that a question like that would fluster them into silence or evasiveness. I hope that is not what happened. A CSR should never allow a conversation to arrive at the conclusion that he refused to answer a question.
The CFP was unable to articulate a strategy. Terms such as asset allocation and rebalancing were not used. It was "On a quarterly basis, we will sell high and buy low". This is the equivalent of "look at the choo choo" versus "look at the locomotive". An opinion was asked and I relayed my experience.

I am done defending myself...
“The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” - John C. Bogle
dbr
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by dbr »

BMWrider1986 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:20 am
dbr wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:52 am
stan1 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:48 am
placeholder wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:32 am
BMWrider1986 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:07 pm My experience with VG PAS was less than satisfying. I opened with “Anyone can make money in an up market, how do you handle a down market”.

They refused to answer that question. It went downhill from there…
They don't manage the money like that they come up with an allocation and implement it with index funds so the only thing they would do in a down market is rebalance.
Above is a good answer for PAS and I'm surprised the PAS advisor wasn't prepared to answer in that simple way (rebalance to asset allocation). I don't know if that's the answer OP would want to hear. If he wants "tactical asset allocation" or similar market timing approach he'd want to use a different advisor who uses such a strategy. PAS doesn't do that.
It is possible that explaining that they set an asset allocation and rebalance would classify as refusing to answer the question. It is also possible the caliber of employee Vanguard puts on the phone is such that a question like that would fluster them into silence or evasiveness. I hope that is not what happened. A CSR should never allow a conversation to arrive at the conclusion that he refused to answer a question.
The CFP was unable to articulate a strategy. Terms such as asset allocation and rebalancing were not used. It was "On a quarterly basis, we will sell high and buy low". This is the equivalent of "look at the choo choo" versus "look at the locomotive". An opinion was asked and I relayed my experience.

I am done defending myself...
If that is what happened you don't need to defend yourself. The service you got was terrible. The answer you quote above was idiotic and reflects a low professional standard from Vanguard. I would not do business with an organization that can't come up with something better than that. After all you are supposedly going to pay them for actual advice, which includes an articulate communication of strategy. An alternative might have been to send you a publication that explains in detail their approach to investment management. I am not sure they have any such thing other than this, which is more opaque than helpful: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/vpabroc.pdf
BMWrider1986
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Location: Southeast USA

Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by BMWrider1986 »

This too needs to be included.

Vanguard’s framework for constructing diversified portfolios :: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/s705.pdf
“The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” - John C. Bogle
dbr
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:50 am

Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by dbr »

BMWrider1986 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:55 am This too needs to be included.

Vanguard’s framework for constructing diversified portfolios :: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/s705.pdf
Thanks, that is actually a pretty good document. The obvious problem is that many people who would think they need advice would not likely make their way through a document like that without glazing over even though it isn't very long nor excessively difficult.
BMWrider1986
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:57 am
Location: Southeast USA

Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by BMWrider1986 »

dbr wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:06 am
BMWrider1986 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:55 am This too needs to be included.

Vanguard’s framework for constructing diversified portfolios :: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/s705.pdf
Thanks, that is actually a pretty good document. The obvious problem is that many people who would think they need advice would not likely make their way through a document like that without glazing over even though it isn't very long nor excessively difficult.
I read both documents before my call to PAS. Therefore, my "irritation" with how the call transpired.
“The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” - John C. Bogle
dbr
Posts: 37019
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:50 am

Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by dbr »

BMWrider1986 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:35 am
dbr wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:06 am
BMWrider1986 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:55 am This too needs to be included.

Vanguard’s framework for constructing diversified portfolios :: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/s705.pdf
Thanks, that is actually a pretty good document. The obvious problem is that many people who would think they need advice would not likely make their way through a document like that without glazing over even though it isn't very long nor excessively difficult.
I read both documents before my call to PAS. Therefore, my "irritation" with how the call transpired.
I would be irritated too. Maybe the CSR had read neither or glazed over before they got to the end.
Clammypollack
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Re: Fee-only Advisor, Vanguard PAS or ???

Post by Clammypollack »

ScottyDog wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:26 am
Working2notWork wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:29 pm Good afternoon,

I've been on vacation for the last week and have been talking with family members who've suggested that I speak with "their guy" when we've discussed financials - 529's, Roth conversions, etc. My B-I-L is in the business so we talk ab without that kind of stuff frequently (his mega-corp charges 1% AUM which is why I don't go with them)

Today, I called Vanguard to ask about their services - I am looking for general guidance (which I could get here) and tax avoidance guidance - and they said that they do not offer the services I am looking for, but that their 'managed assets team' does and that it's only .30% AUM. It makes me wonder why ONLY their AUM team offers those services, but will not provide them to others at an hourly rate.

After thinking about this for a while, it lead me to the following questions:

1. Does anyone here use Vanguards PAS services, and could you go over the pro's/con's?
2. Was anyone able to find a fee-only advisor that they were happy with? I've looked into previous threads and most seemed unsatisfied by their services.


Thanks!!
Being in a large Southeastern city we have a local Fidelity office. I have decided probably to transfer $$ to them from VG...local in-person service at no cost, bonus $ to move money, will use their low/no cost index funds, widow will have personal service, PAS costs $3,000 per year on a $1m portfolio with only phone service(if you can get through to them). Didn't find much around for hourly local advise..most happy to charge you the 1% or so AUM fees.
Be careful about switching your money over to Fidelity because they offer ‘free local advice’. I get that free local advice and I find it to be useless. There’s really no advice. They are there to convince you to buy the 1% management fee offered by another group within Fidelity. I recently went with Vanguard and I get a certified financial planner who actually advises me.
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