How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

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william.don
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Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:15 pm

How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by william.don »

Hello again :sharebeer

Everyone is helping me conquer retirement, so now I'm onto general investment.

I am 29
Not married, no kids
No debts. CC paid in full every month.
No major expected purchases within the next 5 years (I don't know when the next major purchase will be either).
I make about 140k a year, but stocks and other benefits can sometimes boost my income and adjusted income.
I'm setting up to put about 15-20% of my income into retirement plans. PRE-TAX 401k, Traditional IRA, HSA (possibly backdoor Roth).
I also just learned about the idea of retiring early so that's still to be determined in my plan.

I have about $250k just sitting in the bank.

How should I invest this?
How much should I invest?

My retirement is following the 3 fund with bonds % = age.
Should I just do that as well with savings?
Should a portion be completely stocks?

Someone once suggested the general idea of, I put in a chunk into the stock market now, and then during every dip add more.
I've heard I should never try to time the market.

This is pretty scary for me. I know there is technically risk :|

Thanks bogleheads :beer
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retired@50
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by retired@50 »

When I was working, I used my taxable brokerage account as another place to save for retirement.

Since I was able to save more than I was allowed to put into my 401k and Roth IRA, I used a taxable account as an overflow account and made monthly deposits after paying my bills.

If you're considering retiring early, it can be a good place to have a few extra bucks. I used the Vanguard S&P 500 fund, and later branched out into a couple other funds as needed.

You can use a municipal bond fund if you're looking for something with less risk, and your tax bracket warrants it.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
chassis
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by chassis »

Set a target for your cash position. It can be in terms of # of months of living expenses, or a percentage of your net worth. 12 months of living expenses or 10%-15% of your net worth are numbers to consider.

Cash in excess of the above amount can and should (my view) be invested. Some possibilities:

- high yield savings account, yields are around 0.5%
- dividend stocks, you can earn anywhere from 2% to 10% or higher, with fairly low (my opinion) volatility
- broad index fund
- growth stocks

I abhor bonds, CDs and anything resembling them. Reasons are poor returns and handcuffs on your money. I eschew handcuffs. There is no premium high enough that I can be paid to accept handcuffs on my money.

In other words, set your cash target then invest the remaining money according to your asset allocation preference.
LittleMaggieMae
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

What is the purpose of the 250K?
Do you have an EF (or maybe 2-3 months of expenses) somewhere easy to get to? This pay off of this money isn't big returns it's a "Warm Fuzzy" feeling.
I might set up a "stream" or a paycheck transfer of some amount that always goes to this account. Every year or 6 months I'd skim off the excess (over 3 months of expenses) and invest it. What this does is builds in a "stream" of cash you can divert to something else on the fly if you need to cash flow something over a couple of months OR can be used to rebuild your EF if you use some of the 3 months money. Not having the paycheck amount amount automatically invested isn't costing you much and gives you/buys you flexibility (and no drama). It's "icing on the cake" money - it either becomes additional retirement money, gets you out of some financial bind, OR lets you take advantage of an "important to you" opportunity that you didn't see coming or plan for but REALLY want to take.

Are you currently cash flowing big expenses - like vacations? Holiday gifts/expenses? Insurances or car expenses? Maybe nows a time to put "price tags" on these once or twice or three times a year expenses and "put money on the side out of each paycheck" towards them. this buys you a "warm fuzzy" rather than a pay off in returns. You are saving this money to spend and it smooths out your monthly spending. I'm not a big fan of using the Feast or Famine method of budgeting/spending plans.

The above two things will most likely cover the lumpy expense times you have during the year - and you won't have to change how your other cash flows to actual investment vehicles are set up. You also almost always know if you have "enough" money for some event you just heard about that's on the horizon (a fun vacation to someplace with family or friends that you never thought about before?) without having to figure out how doing something like that will effect your long term Retirement plans.

Those two things are the only one's I'd hold in 'cash'. I don't have any other advice other than to "invest the rest".
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Wiggums
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by Wiggums »

At your age, I would invest some of that cash as Retired@50 has suggested. That is exactly what we did, because we had extra funds from a second paycheck. Time in the market is on your side, so I wouldn’t be too concerned about short term price movements. I’m retired and we also hold cash for living expenses. I don’t watch the stock market looking for dips. We have scheduled weekly purchases so we can focus on other things.
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Brianmcg321
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by Brianmcg321 »

Keep $50k in the bank.
Put the rest in a taxable brokerage. VTSAX and chill.
Rules to investing: | 1. Don't lose money. | 2. Don't forget rule number 1.
investuntilimrich
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by investuntilimrich »

Honestly I would just hold cash for now. There will be a buying opportunity for stocks or real estate coming up but I'd let everything deflate first.
Topic Author
william.don
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by william.don »

investuntilimrich wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 pm Honestly I would just hold cash for now. There will be a buying opportunity for stocks or real estate coming up but I'd let everything deflate first.
Sigh. I feel like that too, but that's "timing the market" right? Which isn't a good idea.
Any data or something I could use to consider this? I missed out on so many years already :/
Topic Author
william.don
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by william.don »

LittleMaggieMae wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:31 pm What is the purpose of the 250K?
Right now, nothing. A house one day I guess :confused
placeholder
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by placeholder »

Are you actually putting money into traditional iras?
Marseille07
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by Marseille07 »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:04 pm My retirement is following the 3 fund with bonds % = age.
Should I just do that as well with savings?
Yes. If that's your AA then just mirror the same in taxable with savings. I'm doing the same, though my AA is 100/0.
LeftCoastIV
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by LeftCoastIV »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:07 pm
investuntilimrich wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 pm Honestly I would just hold cash for now. There will be a buying opportunity for stocks or real estate coming up but I'd let everything deflate first.
Sigh. I feel like that too, but that's "timing the market" right? Which isn't a good idea.
Any data or something I could use to consider this? I missed out on so many years already :/
Sounds like DCAing the money into the market would suit you better. Equal amounts over 12 months. Keep a reserve for emergencies, or hold a bit more back to be opportunistic if the market takes a nosedive. Automating the investments each month will make it easier. It will “just happen” rather than each month being a stressful decision based on market gyrations.
dogperson
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by dogperson »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:07 pm
investuntilimrich wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 pm Honestly I would just hold cash for now. There will be a buying opportunity for stocks or real estate coming up but I'd let everything deflate first.
Sigh. I feel like that too, but that's "timing the market" right? Which isn't a good idea.
Any data or something I could use to consider this? I missed out on so many years already :/
Waiting for a specific time to invest is "timing the market" which is largely luck with a bit of courage. Did you consider investing this money last March when the market tanked at the start of the pandemic, or were you scared it would go down further? If the latter, then you might not be good at timing the market. I wouldn't be!

Are you familiar with the idea of dollar cost averaging, which means investing a large sum in smaller increments over time? Here's a recent thread on it. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=344652

Vanguard has shown that putting all the money in at once (lump sum investing) outperforms dollar cost averaging in 2/3 of cases. By this logic, I fund my Roth IRA fully at the beginning of each year rather than spreading contributions across the year.
http://www.smartretirement.com.au/wp-co ... raging.pdf

However, if you're worried about putting money in and then the market immediately goes down, dollar cost averaging can provide a bit of comfort even if it's likely to perform a bit worse than lump sum investing.
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dogagility
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by dogagility »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:07 pm
investuntilimrich wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 pm Honestly I would just hold cash for now. There will be a buying opportunity for stocks or real estate coming up but I'd let everything deflate first.
Sigh. I feel like that too, but that's "timing the market" right? Which isn't a good idea.
Any data or something I could use to consider this? I missed out on so many years already :/
Yes, that is market timing and poor advice.

You need to first determine a purpose for this money. Some may be for a house purchase with a shorter time horizon (a few years?). Some may be for an unknown purpose with a long time horizon which may morph into retirement savings (10 years or more?).

For the long time horizon, I suggest choosing an asset allocation similar to your retirement money asset allocation and investing that portion immediately.

For the short time horizon, choose a fixed income investment (bonds, etc) and invest immediately.
All children spill milk. Learn to smile and wipe it up. -- A Farmer's Wife
hudson
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by hudson »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:04 pm
If I was still working, I would max out all tax advantaged opportunities including ibonds.
Here are my fixed income thoughts in another discussion:
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-cente ... data=yield
chassis
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by chassis »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:07 pm
investuntilimrich wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 pm Honestly I would just hold cash for now. There will be a buying opportunity for stocks or real estate coming up but I'd let everything deflate first.
Sigh. I feel like that too, but that's "timing the market" right? Which isn't a good idea.
Any data or something I could use to consider this? I missed out on so many years already :/
@william.don you have missed years of investment, correct? Waiting to invest your cash means you will add to these years of missed returns. Get the money invested. Don’t wait or dawdle.

Anyone who says the market will pullback or correct is 100% right. No one knows when or by how much. Ignore posts on claims of “a pullback is coming”. There is no chart or data that answers the when, or by how much, questions with certainty. Trying to predict market corrections adds to stage fright and dawdling.

Anyone who says the market will reach new all time highs again, and again and again is also 100% right. This is useful information for the investor as it is an antidote to stage fright and dawdling.

The market goes up over the long term. Don’t dawdle or you will miss more years of returns.
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ruralavalon
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by ruralavalon »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:04 pm Hello again :sharebeer

Everyone is helping me conquer retirement, so now I'm onto general investment.

I am 29
Not married, no kids
No debts. CC paid in full every month.
No major expected purchases within the next 5 years (I don't know when the next major purchase will be either).
I make about 140k a year, but stocks and other benefits can sometimes boost my income and adjusted income.
I'm setting up to put about 15-20% of my income into retirement plans. PRE-TAX 401k, Traditional IRA, HSA (possibly backdoor Roth).
I also just learned about the idea of retiring early so that's still to be determined in my plan.

I have about $250k just sitting in the bank.

How should I invest this?
How much should I invest?

My retirement is following the 3 fund with bonds % = age.
Should I just do that as well with savings?
Should a portion be completely stocks?

Someone once suggested the general idea of, I put in a chunk into the stock market now, and then during every dip add more.
I've heard I should never try to time the market.

This is pretty scary for me. I know there is technically risk :|

Thanks bogleheads :beer
Keep 3-6 months worth of your living expenses in cash in a very safe place like a federally insured savings account.

Are you making maximum contributions to all available tax-advantaged accounts?

If so then I suggest opening a taxable brokerage account at a low cost fund provider like Vanguard, Fidelity or Schwab. Invest in very tax-efficient stock index funds. Wiki article "Tax-efficient Fund Placement", link. Examples of very tax-efficient stock index funds include Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (VTSAX) and Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund (VTIAX).

Bond funds are not very tax-efficient and ordinarily should be held in a tax-advantaged account, preferably a tax-deferred account like a traditional IRA or traditional 401k account.

Often it's best to coordinate investments among all accounts treating all accounts together as a mother unified portfolio,rather than treat each account separately. It's not necessary to have each element of the desired asset allocation in each account.

To make any more specific suggestions we would need to know what funds are offered in your employer's 401k plan, and what funds you are currently using in each account.

If you wish to add that information please see this for information needed and format: Asking Portfolio Questions. Please simply add this to your original post using the edit button (the pencil icon near the upper right corner of your post), it helps a lot if all of your information is in one place.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started
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KingRiggs
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by KingRiggs »

Why are you contributing to a traditional IRA instead of Roth? Take the money you save on taxes by maxing out your 401k and put that towards Roth IRA instead of traditional. At your income, you can't take a deduction on traditional IRA contributions, if I'm not mistaken :confused
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pkcrafter
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by pkcrafter »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:04 pm Hello again :sharebeer

William, you've been given several ideas, but let's make sure we are all on the same track. :happy

Everyone is helping me conquer retirement, so now I'm onto general investment.

I'm not sure what "general investment" means. You should have an emergency fund that is always available. You need separate funding and asset allocation for short term goals like home purchase, car purchase, etc. Finally you need retirement funding that can be a combination of different tax-advantaged accounts and taxable account. All accounts that are directed at retirement should be considered one unified portfolio. That allows you to use only tax-efficient funds in taxable if taxable is needed.

I am 29
Not married, no kids
No debts. CC paid in full every month.
No major expected purchases within the next 5 years (I don't know when the next major purchase will be either).
I make about 140k a year, but stocks and other benefits can sometimes boost my income and adjusted income.

By stocks, do you mean company stock or just an increase in value of the stocks you hold in investments? As for stock increases, I would not consider that a boost in income. It is a boost in retirement assets and it may be temporary.

I'm setting up to put about 15-20% of my income into retirement plans. PRE-TAX 401k, Traditional IRA, HSA (possibly backdoor Roth).

OK, that's a very good saving-for-retirement rate. If you also save for something else, don't consider it part of your retirement assets.

I also just learned about the idea of retiring early so that's still to be determined in my plan.

I have about $250k just sitting in the bank.

If you already have an emergency fund and money needed for short-term goals, and have maxed all tax-advantaged accounts, then get the 250k invested in taxable, but marked for retirement. Invest the money tax-efficiently, but still consider it part of your overall retirement assets. You do not have to replicate the retirement assets in every accounts, just overall.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... _placement

Should a portion be completely stocks?

If this money is marked for retirement, then it may or may not be invested in stocks because the important thing is to have your asset allocation set to target across all accounts, so you don't need to replicate is each different one. You also want the taxable account to be as tax-efficient as possible,

Someone once suggested the general idea of, I put in a chunk into the stock market now, and then during every dip add more.
I've heard I should never try to time the market.

Don't play games, just invest on a regular basis. Consider all assets marked for retirement as one account. Always make adjustments in the tax-advantaged accounts.

This is pretty scary for me. I know there is technically risk :|

Yes, it may feel scary. I assume you are at about 70 stocks and 30 bonds, which is a reasonable allocation for you age. You can continue that AA for 10-20 years if you wish. If 70/30 feels scary, then you might drop stock allocation to 60% and hold. At you age, the contribution rate is more important than a 10% difference in stock allocation.

Paul

When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
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climber2020
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by climber2020 »

I struggled with the same problem when I first started investing in 2012. I had just transferred everything to Vanguard and got my Roth IRA started, but was very hesitant about making Taxable investments due to what the market was doing.

Here's what it looked like in the spring of 2012:

Image

I finally made my first taxable contribution later that year, and after the first one it was like clockwork. Zoomed out, here's what that same period above looks like now:

Image

What seemed like large fluctuations at the time, in the grand scheme of things, ended up being a little squiggle of noise.
MishkaWorries
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by MishkaWorries »

climber2020 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 am I struggled with the same problem when I first started investing in 2012. I had just transferred everything to Vanguard and got my Roth IRA started, but was very hesitant about making Taxable investments due to what the market was doing.

Here's what it looked like in the spring of 2012:

Image

I finally made my first taxable contribution later that year, and after the first one it was like clockwork. Zoomed out, here's what that same period above looks like now:

Image

What seemed like large fluctuations at the time, in the grand scheme of things, ended up being a little squiggle of noise.
Excellent post.
We plan. G-d laughs.
neowiser
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by neowiser »

Psychologically, I've found that dollar cost averaging has helped overcome the fear of buying into the market at the wrong time. Set up a recurring purchase schedule for the same time each month for a year and buy on that date regardless of what the market does. I think I've seen analyses that dispute the utility of this method, but it alleviates some of the anxiety about "buying near the top".
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ruralavalon
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by ruralavalon »

Historically investing all at once in a lump sum has worked out better about 2/3 of the time. Wiki article, "Dollar cost averaging", link.

"Lump sum investing will always carry a higher expected return, because it immediately moves your funds from asset classes with lower expected returns to ones with higher expected returns. Note that higher expected returns do not guarantee that your actual returns will be higher. According to an investopedia article,[5] studies indicate that lump sum investing has produced higher returns 66% of the time."

neowiser wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 am Psychologically, I've found that dollar cost averaging has helped overcome the fear of buying into the market at the wrong time. Set up a recurring purchase schedule for the same time each month for a year and buy on that date regardless of what the market does. I think I've seen analyses that dispute the utility of this method, but it alleviates some of the anxiety about "buying near the top".
But periodically and automatically investing is better than being too scared to invest. Too scared to invest is the worst possible way to go.

So pick one of these two tactics, and just do it.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started
annu
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by annu »

Just to add to real estate. If you plan to wait, then it better be multiple years, with new covid relief packages, people can stop paying mortgage with no impact on their credit score and also even after end of 1 year delay the owner has provision to be able to renegotiate their loan terms. So unless you expect a lot new homes to be built suddenly, with the limited inventory, prices will continue to stay where they are if not get higher.

As a single person, there is nothing better/fast to increase your net worth than buying a home. Look into house hacking, you can even have someone else paying for your mortgage, or worst case you will not be paying rent.

We bought a property recently, overpaid by 6%, considering we were able to rent it, even before current owner has moved, not too much worried about paying above asking, and with mortgage rates so low currently, was no brainer for us. If you are serious about buying home, my suggestion, similar investing in stocks(that you got bunch of good advise already), no one knows what will happen next, so if you can afford it, get in right now.
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bertilak
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by bertilak »

climber2020 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 am I struggled with the same problem when I first started investing in 2012. I had just transferred everything to Vanguard and got my Roth IRA started, but was very hesitant about making Taxable investments due to what the market was doing.

Here's what it looked like in the spring of 2012:

Image

I finally made my first taxable contribution later that year, and after the first one it was like clockwork. Zoomed out, here's what that same period above looks like now:

Image

What seemed like large fluctuations at the time, in the grand scheme of things, ended up being a little squiggle of noise.
Absolutely wonderful post. It shows the wisdom of straightforward investing. Pick an AA (carefully) and just do it. The post shows what a waste of energy it is to fiddle around with "techniques" (like DCA). It won't help. It is too small-scale thinking and just fans the fires of anxiety -- by "doing something" about "it" you are enforcing the feeling that there is an "it" than needs something to be done (and worried) about.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
Doctor Rhythm
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by Doctor Rhythm »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:07 pm
investuntilimrich wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 pm Honestly I would just hold cash for now. There will be a buying opportunity for stocks or real estate coming up but I'd let everything deflate first.
Sigh. I feel like that too, but that's "timing the market" right? Which isn't a good idea.
Wise beyond their years, this one! Yes, waiting for a dip is exactly what timing the market looks like, and I agree you shouldn’t be doing it.

It’s often said here that your risk tolerance reflects ability, need, and willingness to take risk. Based on your age and income, I think you have the ability to take more risk. If early retirement is a serious goal (versus “cool if it happens but fine if it doesn’t”), you may need to take more risk as well. So it comes down then to willingness, which is necessarily influenced by emotion and personality.

At your stage, I would only keep that much cash around if I planned to buy a home as a definite short-term goal (versus “maybe a house after I marry a yet to be identified man or woman and have at least one kid”) — but that’s just me.
Robert20
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by Robert20 »

william.don wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:08 pm
LittleMaggieMae wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:31 pm What is the purpose of the 250K?
Right now, nothing. A house one day I guess :confused
Keep some amount (may be 30-50K range) in Bank and invest rest in VTI/VTSAX. . if you are worried about near term market crash, make weekly investments.
Jebediah
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Re: How should I invest cash just sitting in the bank?

Post by Jebediah »

investuntilimrich wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 pm Honestly I would just hold cash for now. There will be a buying opportunity for stocks or real estate coming up but I'd let everything deflate first.
Right, and when that buying opportunity arises the sky will be falling and cash-holders will say 'oh I'm just waiting for the dust to settle'.
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