Can I create generational wealth?

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Kababayan
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Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Kababayan »

Happy New Year Everyone,
After writing this I realized that I take forever to get to my question, so I am just going to ask it here and save the set-up for the later paragraphs. If you would like more set-up as to why I am asking, please read below. I would like to establish generational wealth for my daughter's grandchildren (which she doesn't have yet...she's only 4). According to investment calculators, investing $500 a month at 6% for 100 years will return $20,000,000. That's where the returns begin to skyrocket. At 125 years, the amount is close to $90,000,000. If my great-grandfather (whom I remember) had begun this when he was the age I am now, I would be entering those peak return years. I know it sounds like fantasy, which is why I am asking people who are a lot smarter than I am (you all). Can it be done? If so, any ideas as to the best way to do it? Additional info is below. Thank you in advance.

When my daughter was born (she's now 4), I began putting $300 a month away for her in mutual funds (I am buying Vanguard's Total Stock Market Index etfs). My intention is to be able to use the money for her later in life (buying a car, helping her with the down payment for a house, etc.). My wife and I both have Roth IRA's that we max out every year plus a pension. We intend to continue to invest for her as we get older (in addition to teaching her how to invest). We set aside money for her in mutual funds rather than a 529, Coverdell, or custodial account so that we will have more freedom with the money. We will begin to fully fund her Roth IRA when she begins working at 16 years old.

I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could. My wife and I both grew up financially-limited, but we always had the love and support of our family. I would like to establish some financial stability for my future family members. Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on? We are in our 40's...so hopefully that won't be for quite some time. Thanks again.
onourway
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by onourway »

This question comes up here from time to time, and in general, the answer is that doing what you propose is a lot harder to implement in reality than the math exercise on paper would make it seem.

First, you are talking about your daughter’s grandchildren. There is a long distance from where you are today and where those people will be decades from now (if they are ever even born). To get the assets to them you need to set up a trust that is rock solid and survives the inevitable court battles that will crop up once the family tree grows a bit and you are long gone. You have a daughter now, what if she has 3 kids, and they each have 3 kids? That’s up to 9 potential beneficiaries, and we haven’t even considered spouses, divorces, etc. etc. Nor what happens if you have more than 1 kid and it splits further. This is what appears to happen to most great fortunes - before long the family tree is so large with so many competing parties vying for a piece of the pie that there are only slivers left to be spent individually, and the compounding machine is interrupted.

I believe one of the threads I’ve seen on the topic here referenced a book (or perhaps several?) that cover this phenomenon as it related to various wealthy families and their respective fortunes. I’m sure someone will chime in if my memory serves.
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bligh
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by bligh »

1) I think you might be being a bit optimistic assuming 6% real returns over 100 to 125 years.

2) You aren't taking tax drag into account - on your dividend income and on inheritances. You might be able to avoid that via trusts (no idea about these), but you will likely pay a premium on the management of these which will likely also eat into your % real returns.

3) Seeing as you are already around 40, you need the buy in from your children and likely your grandchildren to continue this scheme.

4) Remember, assuming you split the money evenly, it will get "diluted" over several generations. If you have 2 kids, then even assuming your very generous $20 mil estimate, it will be split two ways to be $10 mil each. If they each have 2 kids then you are at $5 mil each. Nothing to sneeze at for sure, but it's not nearly as life changing an amount as $20mil.

In short, your goal is great and provided your own retirement and investment goals are met, it is great that you are thinking about your future generations, and it is possible that you can and will make a huge difference for them. However, do what you can and don't start counting the chicken 125 years before they have hatched. You don't even know if your kids will choose to have kids of their own.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

How will future generations receive this money?

Although I can't find a good source to verify, a close dual of receiving this kind of wealth is winning the lottery. Non verified sources seem to point to 70% of these people who go broke within 5 years.
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simplesimon
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by simplesimon »

Are you your great-grandfather's only great-grandchild?
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

onourway wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:54 pm This question comes up here from time to time, and in general, the answer is that doing what you propose is a lot harder to implement in reality than the math exercise on paper would make it seem.

First, you are talking about your daughter’s grandchildren. There is a long distance from where you are today and where those people will be decades from now (if they are ever even born). To get the assets to them you need to set up a trust that is rock solid and survives the inevitable court battles that will crop up once the family tree grows a bit and you are long gone. You have a daughter now, what if she has 3 kids, and they each have 3 kids? That’s up to 9 potential beneficiaries, and we haven’t even considered spouses, divorces, etc. etc. Nor what happens if you have more than 1 kid and it splits further. This is what appears to happen to most great fortunes - before long the family tree is so large with so many competing parties vying for a piece of the pie that there are only slivers left to be spent individually, and the compounding machine is interrupted.

I believe one of the threads I’ve seen on the topic here referenced a book (or perhaps several?) that cover this phenomenon as it related to various wealthy families and their respective fortunes. I’m sure someone will chime in if my memory serves.
this is a good post and a good start. There are other factors besides just the divying up of the pie which occurs exponentially, like also the effects of taxation and inflation which can ravage even the best of portfolios over a long enough time.

I believe the paper onourway may be referencing is called The Myth of Dynastic Wealth: The Rich Get Poorer. It's one of my favs and was co-written by Robert Arnott, Lillian Wu and our own William Bernstein and can be found here:

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/fil ... n3-1_0.pdf

I think there are also laws against perpetual trusts. Really long trusts may be disallowed, though Ben Franklin's gift to Philadelphia and Boston was to be made after 200 years (though laws to stop perpetual trusts were likely established later):

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... iladelphia

looks like some states outlaw perpetual trusts and other states set limitations:

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... ts+illegal

does that help?
Last edited by arcticpineapplecorp. on Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
It's "Stay" the course, not Stray the Course. Buy and Hold works. You should really try it sometime. Get a plan: www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
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Watty
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Watty »

By far one of the best things you can do for your daughter is to make sure that you are financially secure and they will never need to support you even if your life and finances take unexpected twists and turns. Even pensions may not be totally secure especially when there are years before you will start the pension.

I know people that have had to support their parents and they love them but is hard especially for a spouse to see a lot of a families finances being used to support the inlaws. Often this happens when they have kids in college and they are trying to save for their retirement.

Unless you can easily retire today then it is too soon to be planning for generational wealth. You can do that later when you are financially independent.
junior
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by junior »

What are the odds that nuclear war destroys your family in 100 years? Certainly not zero. Nobody knows what the results of your plan will be or if your daughter will have children.
manatee2005
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by manatee2005 »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm Happy New Year Everyone,
After writing this I realized that I take forever to get to my question, so I am just going to ask it here and save the set-up for the later paragraphs. If you would like more set-up as to why I am asking, please read below. I would like to establish generational wealth for my daughter's grandchildren (which she doesn't have yet...she's only 4). According to investment calculators, investing $500 a month at 6% for 100 years will return $20,000,000. That's where the returns begin to skyrocket. At 125 years, the amount is close to $90,000,000. If my great-grandfather (whom I remember) had begun this when he was the age I am now, I would be entering those peak return years. I know it sounds like fantasy, which is why I am asking people who are a lot smarter than I am (you all). Can it be done? If so, any ideas as to the best way to do it? Additional info is below. Thank you in advance.

When my daughter was born (she's now 4), I began putting $300 a month away for her in mutual funds (I am buying Vanguard's Total Stock Market Index etfs). My intention is to be able to use the money for her later in life (buying a car, helping her with the down payment for a house, etc.). My wife and I both have Roth IRA's that we max out every year plus a pension. We intend to continue to invest for her as we get older (in addition to teaching her how to invest). We set aside money for her in mutual funds rather than a 529, Coverdell, or custodial account so that we will have more freedom with the money. We will begin to fully fund her Roth IRA when she begins working at 16 years old.

I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could. My wife and I both grew up financially-limited, but we always had the love and support of our family. I would like to establish some financial stability for my future family members. Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on? We are in our 40's...so hopefully that won't be for quite some time. Thanks again.
You know what happens when we make plans?

1. Your daughter might not have children
2. You might not like your daughter when she becomes an adult and refuse to give her any money
3. You might not like your daughter’s husband and refuse to give any money to them
4. You might not like your grandkids let alone your daughters grandkids

Take care of yourself and don’t worry about your daughter’s grandkids.
Last edited by manatee2005 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
qwertyjazz
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by qwertyjazz »

Let’s say you have a single child who has a single child ad infinitum. Let’s say no investment blows up for 100 years and can continue to produce returns. Let’s say that no governmental change occurs. Let’s say that each generation does not have an addiction or compulsion. Let’s say that AI does not wind up taking over the world etc etc Then maybe your grand child is just really compassionate and understands the concept of enough and just donates the majority of her wealth to charity. Compounding only works if each generation would rather not spend the money now. That is all tall order for a century.
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megabad
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by megabad »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm Can it be done?
Yes.
Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm If so, any ideas as to the best way to do it?
In my opinion, the best way to do it is to educate daughter in the ways of life and money to an extraordinary degree. And, if alive, ensure that daughter passes on these teachings to her children and makes a familial habit of this. All other things are secondary and far less important. Most of the failed wealth stories that I can think of (Vanderbilts, Pullitzers, etc) were the direct result of family members (by marriage and blood) that were not properly educated in the ways of life and money. They had trusts and lawyers galore and yet the money disappeared fast. But then again, perhaps wealth and money are different things...
Bobby206
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Bobby206 »

Why don't you buy a few mil of life insurance, on your daughter's life, in an irrevocable dynasty trust!? Might work!
Pandemic Bangs
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Pandemic Bangs »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm
I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could.
Yeah no one's ever thought of that :D

Even the richest people in the world can't seem to do this. And, unlike them, you're starting from zero dollars.

If you can promise me 6%, I'd like to get in on the ground floor. There's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip -- is that how it goes?

And, even if you are successful, your largesse would more likely cripple them than encourage them to pursue a lifetime of adventurous altruism.
Wait 'til I get my money right | Then you can't tell me nothing, right?
H-Town
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by H-Town »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could. My wife and I both grew up financially-limited, but we always had the love and support of our family. I would like to establish some financial stability for my future family members. Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on? We are in our 40's...so hopefully that won't be for quite some time. Thanks again.
I would respond to your question with livesoft's signature: "This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish."

It's more valuable and arguably more sustainable if you can teach your financial skills and disciplines to your kids and grandkids. Teach them how to fish.

I never plan to leave my wealth to my kids and grandkids. Maybe just enough so that they have the same level playing field. I hope to transfer my knowledge and wisdom to them so that they can build wealth for themselves.
carminered2019
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by carminered2019 »

I wonder what was the average monthly income 100 years ago ?
Firemenot
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Firemenot »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm Happy New Year Everyone,
After writing this I realized that I take forever to get to my question, so I am just going to ask it here and save the set-up for the later paragraphs. If you would like more set-up as to why I am asking, please read below. I would like to establish generational wealth for my daughter's grandchildren (which she doesn't have yet...she's only 4). According to investment calculators, investing $500 a month at 6% for 100 years will return $20,000,000. That's where the returns begin to skyrocket. At 125 years, the amount is close to $90,000,000. If my great-grandfather (whom I remember) had begun this when he was the age I am now, I would be entering those peak return years. I know it sounds like fantasy, which is why I am asking people who are a lot smarter than I am (you all). Can it be done? If so, any ideas as to the best way to do it? Additional info is below. Thank you in advance.

When my daughter was born (she's now 4), I began putting $300 a month away for her in mutual funds (I am buying Vanguard's Total Stock Market Index etfs). My intention is to be able to use the money for her later in life (buying a car, helping her with the down payment for a house, etc.). My wife and I both have Roth IRA's that we max out every year plus a pension. We intend to continue to invest for her as we get older (in addition to teaching her how to invest). We set aside money for her in mutual funds rather than a 529, Coverdell, or custodial account so that we will have more freedom with the money. We will begin to fully fund her Roth IRA when she begins working at 16 years old.

I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could. My wife and I both grew up financially-limited, but we always had the love and support of our family. I would like to establish some financial stability for my future family members. Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on? We are in our 40's...so hopefully that won't be for quite some time. Thanks again.
One approach is to buy or start a privately held family business. Many successful ones I’ve encountered make it to the third generation. Eventually though a generation cashes out or business fails due to a sub-par generation or business model no longer working.
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Brianmcg321
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Brianmcg321 »

Why do you want to do this?

Just spend your money now and spend it on your daughter. Maybe put her kids through college. Other than that, what would be in it for you? Why do you want your daughters grandkids to be rich, and to have done nothing at all to earn it? More than likely they would just blow it all on drugs and stupid cars.

A better bet would be to get them all a copy of "The Intelligent Investor" and one of they will become the next Buffett.
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oldfort
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by oldfort »

It's a great fantasy. A more likely scenario is your children or grandchildren spend the inheritance, which took you a lifetime to accumulate.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Sandtrap »

Generational wealth (substantial wealth) examples:

1
Family were originally farmers and landowners, then R/E developers and business people. Land under a major tourist seaside vast area is owned by the family "trust" who collects leases on the land, and other developments.
Generations of families benefit from this carefully managed wealth as far as education, etc, . . . and of course, some is squandered, etc.

2. Ray Croc started McDonalds after retiring from a successful business career. His decendents benefit from this in a trust.
Add, Sam Walton (walmart), etc, etc, etc. Who started as family owned businesses.

3. Family owns 1 city block of high rise condo buildings, shopping centers, and high rise apartment buildings. Future decendents benefit from this trust.

etc, etc, etc.

4. For many "reasons", there are many laws and rules and tax regulations and so forth that work against generational wealth and/or accumulation of wealth.
(explanation out of the scope of this forum).

5. Diversification of asserts and income stream from those assets as well as tax sheltered vehicles play a role in "Generational Wealth".
(some of this lies outside of the scope of "market" based investment finance here, though it is inclusive as well).

6. Comprehensive estate trust planning is critical.

Disclaimer:
Those with generational wealth often think "out of the box" from many "wage earners and salary earners" who have worked hard to earn pensions, etc.
"Generational Wealth is often Substantial Wealth". There are different definitions of this and approaches depending on each person's path and so forth.
There is "Generational Wealth" in all walks of life, in all professions, and different paths to it. So, as many opinions and approaches, and experiences.

Source: personal and business experience and exposure. (not legal counsel)
j :D
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usagi
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by usagi »

Just an observation, but the only real multi-generational wealth I have seen that passes on rather seamlessly seems to be "family connections" and "knowledge".

To wit, I can think of many families who made "law" the multi-generational source of wealth. In other words the entire family consists of lawyers, generations, and generations of lawyers who are all able to draw on their collective, multi-generational knowledge and web of connections to get, retain, and administer to their well heeled client base. I am talking about lawyers who get out of law school and begin with 6 figure salaries and hit 7 figures in a few years and the reason why is they can land large accounts with their family connections. If you look, some of these families trace back the practice to pre-revolutionary days. Their vacations and pass times are all caught up renewing the connections that insure their success.

It is sort of an intrinsic wealth that cannot be taxed or blocked readily by law and yet exists and persists. And of course, the one thing that never seems to cease is the legal profession.
Dr. Dad
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Dr. Dad »

I join others in asking: Why?

I can’t decide whether your fantasy is incredibly generous or just narcissistic. Maybe both. I mean no disrespect. But perhaps there are more important things to pass on to future generations..? Knowledge, wisdom, values, love, humor..?

Beyond this...why steal from future generations of young men and women the challenge and pleasure of creating their own wealth? Maybe there’s an effective way to empower them rather than just provide for them.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

DD
MJS
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by MJS »

Inflation is a major issue. According to https://smartasset.com/investing/inflation-calculator , $20 will buy only $6 worth of goods in 50 years: 2071.

By a century, 2121, your $20,000,000 will be the equivalent of $3 million: not generational wealth. Inflation is a major wealth killer on even 30 year retirement scales. On multigenerational scales... invest in land, education, business -- not mere money.
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retired@50
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by retired@50 »

See this link about what Ben Franklin did for the cities of Boston and Philadelphia...

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/627 ... iladelphia

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
babystep
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by babystep »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm Happy New Year Everyone,
After writing this I realized that I take forever to get to my question, so I am just going to ask it here and save the set-up for the later paragraphs. If you would like more set-up as to why I am asking, please read below. I would like to establish generational wealth for my daughter's grandchildren (which she doesn't have yet...she's only 4). According to investment calculators, investing $500 a month at 6% for 100 years will return $20,000,000. That's where the returns begin to skyrocket. At 125 years, the amount is close to $90,000,000. If my great-grandfather (whom I remember) had begun this when he was the age I am now, I would be entering those peak return years. I know it sounds like fantasy, which is why I am asking people who are a lot smarter than I am (you all). Can it be done? If so, any ideas as to the best way to do it? Additional info is below. Thank you in advance.

When my daughter was born (she's now 4), I began putting $300 a month away for her in mutual funds (I am buying Vanguard's Total Stock Market Index etfs). My intention is to be able to use the money for her later in life (buying a car, helping her with the down payment for a house, etc.). My wife and I both have Roth IRA's that we max out every year plus a pension. We intend to continue to invest for her as we get older (in addition to teaching her how to invest). We set aside money for her in mutual funds rather than a 529, Coverdell, or custodial account so that we will have more freedom with the money. We will begin to fully fund her Roth IRA when she begins working at 16 years old.

I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could. My wife and I both grew up financially-limited, but we always had the love and support of our family. I would like to establish some financial stability for my future family members. Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on? We are in our 40's...so hopefully that won't be for quite some time. Thanks again.
I like your objective and thinking. I am not an expert on this but in my opinion the most critical component to achieve something like this will be to pass on the financial wisdom and discipline to your kids and grand-kids such that they can pass on those attributes further down. If family keeps passing these attributes then one would have greater confidence in the generational wealth.

The second part will be to take care of ones own financial situation such that one can leave sizable inheritance behind in taxable and other accounts. Note that cost basis goes up on inheritance on taxable accounts so they would be great to pass on.

If ones own situation is taken care with great margins then it would allow them to help kids with education, home buying etc. This in turn allow the kids to save early and in the greater amounts and with the combination of family financial values passed down to grand kids it would be great combination to achieve the generational wealth.
cacophony
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by cacophony »

carminered2019 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:40 pm I wonder what was the average monthly income 100 years ago ?
According to the IRS, the average monthly income in 1920 was $272.45
anon3838
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by anon3838 »

oldfort wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:01 pm It's a great fantasy. A more likely scenario is your children or grandchildren spend the inheritance, which took you a lifetime to accumulate.
This is precisely what is occurring with an acquaintance in my circle. The ultra-wealthy mom was so frugal that she would not replace her house slippers which she wore daily. Just add a layer of duct tape and get on with life.

When she passed, she left a FORTUNE to her only child. The only child has been on a spending bender since her death. I am convinced that this person will die “broke”. In this case, I think the inheritance was not a blessing, but a curse.

OP, I know your intentions are in the right place. It is admirable...but as others have said...the most valuable gift is passing your knowledge and wisdom, which has taken you a lifetime to earn.
vsquid
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by vsquid »

babystep wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:27 am in my opinion the most critical component to achieve something like this will be to pass on the financial wisdom and discipline to your kids and grand-kids such that they can pass on those attributes further down. If family keeps passing these attributes then one would have greater confidence in the generational wealth.
Amen. Some of my friends have generational wealth. I would describe their whole families as cheap. One friend's uncle was a minister in a small European country. He did have his government car and driver. However his personal car was some 25-year old beater.. The whole families either shop their clothes at H&M or buy something that will last for decades. No high fashion. They might spend more than average on travelling, and they do keep on accumulating assets like real estate and stocks, not spending it down.

So my advice is to educate your children and tell them to educate their children etc. No amount of trusts and lawyers can protect from incompetence but financial education is free.
usagi
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by usagi »

Dr. Dad wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:31 am I join others in asking: Why?

I can’t decide whether your fantasy is incredibly generous or just narcissistic. Maybe both. I mean no disrespect. But perhaps there are more important things to pass on to future generations..? Knowledge, wisdom, values, love, humor..?

Beyond this...why steal from future generations of young men and women the challenge and pleasure of creating their own wealth? Maybe there’s an effective way to empower them rather than just provide for them.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

DD
Here is a perspective.

In this country the trend appears to be toward free college for all. If you extrapolate that potential reality and think of it in terms of basic economics, you are deprecating the economic value of one of the rungs in the ladder of economic success. Simply put when everyone has access to an education and skills, it will be difficult to be above average income wise. Hence the best way to insure a hand up to the future generations is through a financial legacy that will allow them to live at average income + annual stipend from the legacy.

Another perspective is if you leave a legacy that pays out at least a fixed percentage of the average median wage you leave open the door for your descendants to chase their dreams or follow their actual aptitude rather than trading off their dreams for jobs that provide enough financial stability to support a family. I don't know about you but I know a plethora of people who wanted to XY or Z or had a knack for AB or C and ended up doing something they had no passion for because they wanted to provide for their family. A legacy has the potential to allow future generations to live their dreams and focus their energy on their innate talents.
minimalistmarc
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by minimalistmarc »

anon3838 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:32 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:01 pm It's a great fantasy. A more likely scenario is your children or grandchildren spend the inheritance, which took you a lifetime to accumulate.
This is precisely what is occurring with an acquaintance in my circle. The ultra-wealthy mom was so frugal that she would not replace her house slippers which she wore daily. Just add a layer of duct tape and get on with life.

When she passed, she left a FORTUNE to her only child. The only child has been on a spending bender since her death. I am convinced that this person will die “broke”. In this case, I think the inheritance was not a blessing, but a curse.

OP, I know your intentions are in the right place. It is admirable...but as others have said...the most valuable gift is passing your knowledge and wisdom, which has taken you a lifetime to earn.
Why do you think it’s a curse? If they spend it all they’re just back to square one, and they’ve helped the economy along the way by their thrifty spending. Maybe that’s their intention. The problem with ultra frugal parents is they probably make their offspring want to be the opposite.
dboeger1
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by dboeger1 »

Personally, I would rather focus on a particular cause than people. People are unreliable and unpredictable. People change, often for perfectly understandable reasons. By trying to do this, you're placing expectations on future generations to use your wealth in a way which is satisfying to you, and that's just setting yourself up for disappointment. Instead, maybe decide what you care most about. For me, I'm a big believer in education. So I would see if there were some way to set up a family educational fund that any of my descendants could pull from on the condition that it be used for educational purposes.

Unfortunately, I don't even know if such a thing exists. As far as I know, trusts usually have specific beneficiaries, and I wouldn't necessarily want to force specific descendants to get an education they didn't want or intend to use just for the same of accessing the funds. More than likely, I'd end up just creating or donating to some educational fund for others, not necessarily my descendants. I know that isn't what you were looking for, but it's far easier, more reliable, and arguably more effective than expecting specific descendents of yours to be good stewards of your money.
snowox
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by snowox »

Once she has her children just change your will over to include funds to your Grandkids and then you can put an age that they will receive it. This way too you can keep it invested for now and have in case of an emergency. I get what your trying to do but its alot simpler imo to see how things go, save along the way and then leave to them.
NightFall
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by NightFall »

I know someone whose great grandparents was a business tycoon and helped establish one of the largest cities in the US now. Their family name is on lots of things in the city. When the great grandparent passed, a trust was created. The grandparents are very wealthy. Like flying private planes wealthy. The next generation are what we would consider wealthy. Don’t have to work kind of wealthy. The current generation are well-off. They still need jobs to keep up a good life style.

I wouldn’t say don’t try it. Saving is always good. But the exponential growth of money is competing against the exponential growth of families. If people grow faster than money, the money won’t last. Of course, if money grows faster than people, then they can be quite wealthy indeed.
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

Saving $500/month won't get you there. $5000 a month might get you closer, but starting (or being the initial investor in) a business is what it would take to get you there. You need near exponential growth in your lifetime to generate anything that people would consider "wealth" in the future.
aristotelian
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by aristotelian »

You are forgetting inflation and most humans have a much shorter span for wealth accumulation, physically and mentally. There is no way you are going to amass that kind of wealth for $500/month. Also not sure why you would want to. Your progeny should be fully capable of supporting themselves.
fourwheelcycle
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

Sandtrap wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:07 pm Generational wealth (substantial wealth) examples:
1
Family were originally farmers and landowners, then R/E developers and business people. Land under a major tourist seaside vast area is owned by the family "trust" who collects leases on the land, and other developments.
Generations of families benefit from this carefully managed wealth as far as education, etc, . . . and of course, some is squandered, etc.
I have a friend whose family wealth began when their grandfather's farm happened to be located exactly where a nationally known interstate cloverleaf is located today. I can't speak for other members of their family, but I know my friend had a good education, has lived very well, has made some charitable donations along the way, and will not be leaving a lot of money to anybody.

OP is fortunate to be able to save regularly for their daughter. I note OP is not saving specifically for college. If OP's good fortune continues, I suggest their priorities should be (a) save enough to assure you will be able to live securely during your own retirement and never be a burden on your daughter, (b) spend your savings as needed to provide your daughter a good education to prepare her for a productive adult life and give her the breadth of perspective to enjoy that life, (c) help your daughter modestly with expenses such as first cars, first mortgages, and support for health and career setbacks she may experience, and finally, (d) leave her a nest egg, large or small, that will help her to support her children as you have supported her.

Lastly, keep you fingers crossed that life, health, divorce, and taxes do not scuttle your hope for (d).
Target2019
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Target2019 »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could. My wife and I both grew up financially-limited, but we always had the love and support of our family. I would like to establish some financial stability for my future family members. Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on? We are in our 40's...so hopefully that won't be for quite some time. Thanks again.
Search for James E. Hughes Jr. on the internet...

http://www.jamesehughes.com/index.php has articles and book list that deal with the subject.

A decent summary of his approach is at this blog:
http://www.cliffordswan.com/blog/the-fa ... ing-wealth

I used his writings to establish an informal framework for passing on wealth to our children. I think you may have some difficulty using his concepts when skipping a generation. I say this because his plan strongly advises about educating the next generation about the concept.

Hughes covers every question one can imagine, and has legal background and exxperience with the topic.

What have we done? It is a work in progress, with guidance written down. We set aside a joint (parents) brokerage into which we placed the bulk of two inheritances from our parents. Another interesting portion was a significant gift of stock from one child to us. When the right opportunity presents itself (Dad, can you lend me...) I use our family bank concept to discuss what I'd like to see happen down the road with this set-aside wealth. Our plan is detailed to suit us, and it's up to you how to tailor your approach. You should definitely get buy in from your partner, too.

I know that some set up trusts, and one day we may move to that structure, but for now everything works as is...
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ClevrChico
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by ClevrChico »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on?
I think it is likely most of it will be squandered by future generations from what I've seen. Even the people that generate huge windfalls in business can end up squandering it by making dumb decisions. (Giving it away to charities that don't do what they say, expensive divorces, etc.)
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by z3r0c00l »

Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm If my great-grandfather (whom I remember) had begun this when he was the age I am now, I would be entering those peak return years. I know it sounds like fantasy, which is why I am asking people who are a lot smarter than I am (you all). Can it be done?
If your great-grandfather was investing $500 a month 100 years ago, he was already doing pretty well for himself. That's inflation adjusted $65,000 a year in savings after tax and expenses. Anyway, extreme wealth rarely survives the third generation, even the heirs to once vast fortunes have often fallen back into the middle class. If you want future generations to be financially secure, pass along the work ethic and respect for saving that gives them the ability to generate their own wealth.
mfng
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by mfng »

onourway wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:54 pm This question comes up here from time to time, and in general, the answer is that doing what you propose is a lot harder to implement in reality than the math exercise on paper would make it seem.

First, you are talking about your daughter’s grandchildren. There is a long distance from where you are today and where those people will be decades from now (if they are ever even born). To get the assets to them you need to set up a trust that is rock solid and survives the inevitable court battles that will crop up once the family tree grows a bit and you are long gone. You have a daughter now, what if she has 3 kids, and they each have 3 kids? That’s up to 9 potential beneficiaries, and we haven’t even considered spouses, divorces, etc. etc. Nor what happens if you have more than 1 kid and it splits further. This is what appears to happen to most great fortunes - before long the family tree is so large with so many competing parties vying for a piece of the pie that there are only slivers left to be spent individually, and the compounding machine is interrupted.

I believe one of the threads I’ve seen on the topic here referenced a book (or perhaps several?) that cover this phenomenon as it related to various wealthy families and their respective fortunes. I’m sure someone will chime in if my memory serves.
Here's a book written by one of the Vanderbilts that covers the rise and fall of that family's fortunes. Very thought provoking.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/106 ... s_Children
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Sandtrap
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Sandtrap »

Target2019 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:37 am
Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could. My wife and I both grew up financially-limited, but we always had the love and support of our family. I would like to establish some financial stability for my future family members. Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on? We are in our 40's...so hopefully that won't be for quite some time. Thanks again.
Search for James E. Hughes Jr. on the internet...

http://www.jamesehughes.com/index.php has articles and book list that deal with the subject.

A decent summary of his approach is at this blog:
http://www.cliffordswan.com/blog/the-fa ... ing-wealth

I used his writings to establish an informal framework for passing on wealth to our children. I think you may have some difficulty using his concepts when skipping a generation. I say this because his plan strongly advises about educating the next generation about the concept.

Hughes covers every question one can imagine, and has legal background and exxperience with the topic.

What have we done? It is a work in progress, with guidance written down. We set aside a joint (parents) brokerage into which we placed the bulk of two inheritances from our parents. Another interesting portion was a significant gift of stock from one child to us. When the right opportunity presents itself (Dad, can you lend me...) I use our family bank concept to discuss what I'd like to see happen down the road with this set-aside wealth. Our plan is detailed to suit us, and it's up to you how to tailor your approach. You should definitely get buy in from your partner, too.

I know that some set up trusts, and one day we may move to that structure, but for now everything works as is...
This is outstanding. :D :D
Thanks for taking the time to post this.
It is one of my major concerns.

I have passed on the links to others.
j :D
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
bugleheadd
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by bugleheadd »

Pandemic Bangs wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:35 pm
Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm
I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could.
Yeah no one's ever thought of that :D

Even the richest people in the world can't seem to do this. And, unlike them, you're starting from zero dollars.

If you can promise me 6%, I'd like to get in on the ground floor. There's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip -- is that how it goes?

And, even if you are successful, your largesse would more likely cripple them than encourage them to pursue a lifetime of adventurous altruism.
the royal families seem to be able to pass down wealth for several generations. as well as wealthy families like the Rothchilds
Yooper
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Yooper »

If you feel strongly about it, just do it. Set up an account, contribute $500 a month, and in 40 years (you'll be in your 80's and your daughter in her 40's), decide if it still makes sense. If so, you're well on your way. If not, well you'll be a legend in your family with the party you could throw. "You know, 40 years ago I had this harebrained idea but now I realize I was wrong. I've got 240K to blow, who wants to help me?" Seriously though, if you want to give it a shot, I say more power to you.
Rus In Urbe
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Rus In Urbe »

That old Chestnut, "The Millionaire Next Door" has some great advice about raising children----and what it means to pass on wealth of all kinds.

Education, Education, Education.

And the best thing you can do is set a good example. If you don't hold an advanced degree, then go get one in a subject that might increase your earning power and/or enrich your intellectual life. Take classes in everything. Read every day. Read excellent books (see Bill Gates on reading).
I'd like to live as a poor man with lots of money. ~Pablo Picasso
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

Firemenot wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:48 pm One approach is to buy or start a privately held family business. Many successful ones I’ve encountered make it to the third generation. Eventually though a generation cashes out or business fails due to a sub-par generation or business model no longer working.
from shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations.
It's "Stay" the course, not Stray the Course. Buy and Hold works. You should really try it sometime. Get a plan: www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
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Blueskies123
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by Blueskies123 »

Have you considered giving to people suffering terrible pain now just because of where they were born?

https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities

This site has sifted through all the charities and looked for the most cost-efficient organizations that also effectively reducing suffering.

Every person I know that inherited money has wasted a large part of it and those people did not contribute to society as much as they might have done otherwise.
If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging
bugleheadd
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by bugleheadd »

Rus In Urbe wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:44 am That old Chestnut, "The Millionaire Next Door" has some great advice about raising children----and what it means to pass on wealth of all kinds.

Education, Education, Education.

And the best thing you can do is set a good example. If you don't hold an advanced degree, then go get one in a subject that might increase your earning power and/or enrich your intellectual life. Take classes in everything. Read every day. Read excellent books (see Bill Gates on reading).
i agree with this. the best way to ensure your descendants be in the top % of wealth. cant go wrong with coming from a family with a long history of professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc...). even blue collar careers like hvac, plumbing, electrical, etc.. can generate a lot of wealth through having own business and having your children take over the torch.
passing down wealth just through trust funds (unless strictly limited as to what it can be used for) or just giving inheritances can breed laziness and temptation to just spend down the funds while taking it easy
hnd
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by hnd »

It is all about education. I hear tons of horror stories but most of those stories are people who have poured very little into their children and everything into becoming rich. so that when they die or give a bunch to their kids, the story goes that the inheritors blow the money and make poor decisions with it. why? because there has been no life long education of how to care and nurture for it and often, there has been little care and nurturing by the inheritees to the inheritors (i may be making up words here!)

That said education can only go so far. people are people.

i grew up with a few brothers who's grandfather built a midwest empire. probably one of the richest people in the midwest in the late 90's. he left his grandchildren millions each set aside in trusts. they just had to graduate college. There are about 10 grandchildren. 9 out of 10 of them, i would say have made something of themselves while also I believe, as an outside observer, have not lived frivolously in excess. 1 of them was a drug addled looney for a bit, but even he seemed to have straighten himself out in his 40's.

Building a legacy for your family is more than just leaving money. Its continuously preparing them for how you feel they should spend it when you are gone. IMO the best way to do that is to give it to them while you are alive if you are able.

I think the worst way to get a large sum of money from your deceased parents is by surprise. I have 2 friends who are brothers who got a large sum of money from their father who was a cheapskate throughout their lives. like a very large sum. they were saddened that their father lived in squalor they way he did and had a hard time not being resentful. definitely a far end of the spectrum type deal imo.
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WarAdmiral
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by WarAdmiral »

Target2019 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:37 am
Kababayan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:44 pm I would love to be able to set up my future generations financially, at least as best I could. My wife and I both grew up financially-limited, but we always had the love and support of our family. I would like to establish some financial stability for my future family members. Any ideas on how realistic this is and how to keep it all going once my wife and I pass on? We are in our 40's...so hopefully that won't be for quite some time. Thanks again.
Search for James E. Hughes Jr. on the internet...

http://www.jamesehughes.com/index.php has articles and book list that deal with the subject.

A decent summary of his approach is at this blog:
http://www.cliffordswan.com/blog/the-fa ... ing-wealth

I used his writings to establish an informal framework for passing on wealth to our children. I think you may have some difficulty using his concepts when skipping a generation. I say this because his plan strongly advises about educating the next generation about the concept.

Hughes covers every question one can imagine, and has legal background and exxperience with the topic.

What have we done? It is a work in progress, with guidance written down. We set aside a joint (parents) brokerage into which we placed the bulk of two inheritances from our parents. Another interesting portion was a significant gift of stock from one child to us. When the right opportunity presents itself (Dad, can you lend me...) I use our family bank concept to discuss what I'd like to see happen down the road with this set-aside wealth. Our plan is detailed to suit us, and it's up to you how to tailor your approach. You should definitely get buy in from your partner, too.

I know that some set up trusts, and one day we may move to that structure, but for now everything works as is...
A family bank is a disaster in making.
LFKB
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by LFKB »

The odds of this playing out as you expect over 100 or 125 years is next to zero. I’d just focus on what you can control in your lifetime and then leave written instructions as to your wishes for the inheritance to your kids.
nigel_ht
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Re: Can I create generational wealth?

Post by nigel_ht »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:09 pm
onourway wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:54 pm This question comes up here from time to time, and in general, the answer is that doing what you propose is a lot harder to implement in reality than the math exercise on paper would make it seem.

First, you are talking about your daughter’s grandchildren. There is a long distance from where you are today and where those people will be decades from now (if they are ever even born). To get the assets to them you need to set up a trust that is rock solid and survives the inevitable court battles that will crop up once the family tree grows a bit and you are long gone. You have a daughter now, what if she has 3 kids, and they each have 3 kids? That’s up to 9 potential beneficiaries, and we haven’t even considered spouses, divorces, etc. etc. Nor what happens if you have more than 1 kid and it splits further. This is what appears to happen to most great fortunes - before long the family tree is so large with so many competing parties vying for a piece of the pie that there are only slivers left to be spent individually, and the compounding machine is interrupted.

I believe one of the threads I’ve seen on the topic here referenced a book (or perhaps several?) that cover this phenomenon as it related to various wealthy families and their respective fortunes. I’m sure someone will chime in if my memory serves.
this is a good post and a good start. There are other factors besides just the divying up of the pie which occurs exponentially, like also the effects of taxation and inflation which can ravage even the best of portfolios over a long enough time.

I believe the paper onourway may be referencing is called The Myth of Dynastic Wealth: The Rich Get Poorer. It's one of my favs and was co-written by Robert Arnott, Lillian Wu and our own William Bernstein and can be found here:

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/fil ... n3-1_0.pdf

I think there are also laws against perpetual trusts. Really long trusts may be disallowed, though Ben Franklin's gift to Philadelphia and Boston was to be made after 200 years (though laws to stop perpetual trusts were likely established later):

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... iladelphia

looks like some states outlaw perpetual trusts and other states set limitations:

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... ts+illegal

does that help?
You don't use a trust in 2020 but a family LLC. Corporations have no time limit.

I didn't read the whole paper but this jumped out at me:

"If Piketty is right, where are the current hyper-wealthy descendants of past entrepreneurial dynasties—the Astors, Vanderbilts, Carnegies, Rockefellers, Mellons, and Gettys? Almost to a man (or woman) they are absent from the realms of the super-affluent."

One branch of those families tend to remain wealthy. They may not be super-affluent however including the Rockefeller family in here indicates poor research...in the 7th generation with 170 heirs the family had $11B in 2016.

https://www.forbes.com/profile/rockefel ... 606561430e

Oops, looks like they are down to $8.4B in 2020. Positively destitute...

Mellon family #28 $11.5B 1841 https://www.forbes.com/profile/mellon/?sh=35b5dbc66c8b

Mars family sits at #3 with $94B...Mars company founded in 1911 - https://www.forbes.com/profile/mars-1/?sh=32d6b228c8ed

S.C Johnson Family - #6 $37B...established 1886. 5th generation - https://www.forbes.com/profile/sc-johns ... 03e4f44720

Hearst Family - #12 $21B...1887. Grandson (3rd gen) chairs Hearst Corp.

DuPont Family - #17 $16B...1802. 4000 heirs.

Some families like Astor, Vanderbilt and Ford don't make the top 50 list.

Maybe this easy to google Forbes list wasn't available in 2015 but rather than depending on Forbes to do all the heavy lifting perhaps the authors might have made a cursory effort to figure out if maybe the Rockefellers still had money given I'm pretty damn sure that Wikipedia existed in 2015 and you could maybe remember that there was some guy named Rockefeller that was Vice-President in the 70's and he was pretty rich.

The difference between Rockefeller and Vanderbilt was that the Rockefellers locked their fortune into a 1932 family trust that will end on the death of the 4th generation.

Getty family - $5B

Heck, Getty didn't die until 1976.

And WTF?

"Gordon Getty

According to Forbes 400, in September 2011 his net worth was $2billion (£1.4billion), ranking him number 212 on the list of wealthy Americans."

https://www.the-sun.com/news/1850870/ge ... l-dynasty/

Soooo...generational wealth does exist and the CATO paper is deeply flawed and poorly researched...how ironic that they state:

"However, it’s equally fair to note that the hyper-wealthy are not that hard to find. " (p 463)

Yeah, no kidding, it's called google...

Families CAN fall but certainly the number of old families in the Forbes top 50 family list indicates that shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations is not a foregone conclusion.
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