Short Tesla?

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Topic Author
Mr.RegPark
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:01 pm

Short Tesla?

Post by Mr.RegPark »

So who’s willing to go anti- Boglian to the max and do the obvious. Market capitalization of 562 billion with p.e. of 1,134!! I own a Tesla, but this is unsustainable. When it bursts fortunes will be made.
TravelforFun
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by TravelforFun »

Gabelli2020 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:17 pm So who’s willing to go anti- Boglian to the max and do the obvious. Market capitalization of 562 billion with p.e. of 1,134!! I own a Tesla, but this is unsustainable. When it bursts fortunes will be made.
So many people including famed investors have gotten squeezed by TSLA.

TravelforFun
Normchad
Posts: 3344
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by Normchad »

It’s definitely tempting.....
gonefishing01
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:09 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by gonefishing01 »

000
Posts: 6542
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by 000 »

I wonder what is the most effective way to do this without the risk of a naked short. Long dated TSLA options are crazy expensive.
What goes up must come down 😎
User avatar
mrspock
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:49 am
Location: Vulcan

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by mrspock »

Good luck with that. Never bet against a guy which can land rockets on end.... doubly so when they can do this two rockets at once.

The company I work for had a PE like that once upon a time as well, people laughed at us, mocked us (sound familiar?). Let's just say things didn't work out very well for the shorts.
luckyducky99
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:47 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by luckyducky99 »

Gabelli2020 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:17 pm So who’s willing to go anti- Boglian to the max and do the obvious. Market capitalization of 562 billion with p.e. of 1,134!! I own a Tesla, but this is unsustainable. When it bursts fortunes will be made.
If I recall correctly, AMZN had a PE of over a thousand for a while, and the stock was trading around $300. Anyone who shorted then is still waiting for their fortune.
BogleZogle___Mogul
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:23 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by BogleZogle___Mogul »

Gabelli2020 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:17 pm So who’s willing to go anti- Boglian to the max and do the obvious. Market capitalization of 562 billion with p.e. of 1,134!! I own a Tesla, but this is unsustainable. When it bursts fortunes will be made.
What could go wrong?
ge1
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:15 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by ge1 »

I bought some June 2022 out of the money puts with some gambling money I have in my Etrade account.

Totally aware that I may lose it, if so it won't bother me.

But if this is not a bubble, then I don't know what is.
02nz
Posts: 7756
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by 02nz »

Try searching past threads. Funny, some people who did this and boasted about it no longer post here.
02nz
Posts: 7756
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by 02nz »

Gabelli2020 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:17 pm So who’s willing to go anti- Boglian to the max and do the obvious. Market capitalization of 562 billion with p.e. of 1,134!! I own a Tesla, but this is unsustainable. When it bursts fortunes will be made.
As the saying goes: the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.
hoofaman
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:39 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by hoofaman »

You wouldn’t be the first to try this, but even people like Jim Chanos have said there are much more compelling short opportunities than TSLA right now, and he is focused more on those

I think Tesla could have negitive earnings and people would continue to bid it up. People buy TSLA because they believe someone else will pay more later, just like bitcoin, fundamentals do not apply

Just buy the market and save yourself some stress
User avatar
whodidntante
Posts: 10437
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:11 pm
Location: outside the echo chamber

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by whodidntante »

I have shorted Tesla twice for a modest profit each time. Thinking about it again, but it's a dangerous game to play, just so you know. You're basically betting on a cult to self-immolate.
gougou
Posts: 649
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:42 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by gougou »

Why short Tesla? Tesla is expected to make $5B+/yr profit in 2022 which gives it a 100x P/E. I know 100x P/E is expensive but there are many companies that are in a similar P/E range or even more expensive. For example, Zoom (ZM) is at 150x forward P/E, Amazon (AMZN) is at 90x forward P/E, Pinterest (PIN) is at 150x forward P/E, etc. You could have shorted all of them and made the same case about overvaluation.

As long as the whole market is elevated, I don't see Tesla going down. Also I don't short and I prefer to buy undervalued sectors and wait for recovery.
pasadena
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:23 am
Location: PNW

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by pasadena »

Oh, that sounds like a great idea, never heard that before, in the years since the IPO /s
z3r0c00l
Posts: 2766
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:43 am
Location: NYC

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by z3r0c00l »

Tesla will reach a reasonable share price some day. The problem is we don't know when that will happen, maybe a decade from now. Successfully shorting a stock requires not only getting the direction right, but also the timing.
75% Global Stocks / 25% I-Bonds
cone774413
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:22 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by cone774413 »

mrspock wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:32 pm Good luck with that. Never bet against a guy which can land rockets on end.... doubly so when they can do this two rockets at once.
Do you think Musk had any substantial contribution towards the engineering or design of those rockets?
alex_686
Posts: 9667
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:39 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by alex_686 »

I worked on the margin desk during the dot.com boom and bust. I saw fortunes lost betting against webvan, Netscape, and AOL.

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay liquid.
Former brokerage operations & mutual fund accountant. I hate risk, which is why I study and embrace it.
jarjarM
Posts: 2049
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by jarjarM »

Please come back and report on your status if you go thru with it. I'm getting my popcorns ready :beer
Normchad
Posts: 3344
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by Normchad »

alex_686 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:38 pm I worked on the margin desk during the dot.com boom and bust. I saw fortunes lost betting against webvan, Netscape, and AOL.

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay liquid.
This right here is an amazing post. All of these companies were over-valued and went bust. And everybody knew it would happen, and they still got wiped out financially betting on it.....
alex_686
Posts: 9667
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:39 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by alex_686 »

Normchad wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:06 pm
alex_686 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:38 pm I worked on the margin desk during the dot.com boom and bust. I saw fortunes lost betting against webvan, Netscape, and AOL.

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay liquid.
This right here is an amazing post. All of these companies were over-valued and went bust. And everybody knew it would happen, and they still got wiped out financially betting on it.....
As a mild counter, Amazon and Apple would also have been on that list. It took a nice hit during the bust but it has come back quite nicely. But back to the main point. If you are going to short a company you have to get 2 things right. That they are going to go down and when they are going to go down. This is much tougher than the long position.
Former brokerage operations & mutual fund accountant. I hate risk, which is why I study and embrace it.
dh
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by dh »

I have never shorted a stock, so I yield to those of you with better information/insights. However, I was nudged to reply as I saw an interview segment with Jim Chanos. While he hasn't taken off his entire short position, he has greatly reduced it.

I am glad that my mutual funds have held Tesla all the way up. I am glad that I didn't use the S&P 500 index; I prefer to own the entire haystack. Will Tesla addition help or hinder the S&P 500 going forward? I don't know and I don't care.

Sidenote. I have some small holding in International Growth and Dividend Growth. International Growth (VWIGX) has had Tesla in their top 10 holding most (if not the entire year). At last glance it is my best performing fund in 2020 with a return of 51%. :shock: I wish it wasn't such a small part of my portfolio! e

Stay well, Bogleheads!
Firemenot
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by Firemenot »

z3r0c00l wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:31 pm Tesla will reach a reasonable share price some day. The problem is we don't know when that will happen, maybe a decade from now. Successfully shorting a stock requires not only getting the direction right, but also the timing.
My thoughts exactly.
checkyourmath
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:46 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by checkyourmath »

Tesla is a no no. They are so cool! That last statement is a joke but even at a PE of a 1000. The cost to short them is insane. MSFT, GM, or GE are much better bets. Unless they get caught doing something Enronesque you have almost no chance. Let's say the stock starts to drop 50% they will start selling $400 dollar T shirts and will get 500,000 preorders with it. This world is all about imagine which is sad to say. I was actually looking up the same thing this past week and was shocked to see the prices. Teslas 2021 earnings are going to be garbage but that doesn't even matter.
tdmp
Posts: 116
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:12 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by tdmp »

gougou wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:13 pm Why short Tesla? Tesla is expected to make $5B+/yr profit in 2022 which gives it a 100x P/E. I know 100x P/E is expensive but there are many companies that are in a similar P/E range or even more expensive. For example, Zoom (ZM) is at 150x forward P/E, Amazon (AMZN) is at 90x forward P/E, Pinterest (PIN) is at 150x forward P/E, etc. You could have shorted all of them and made the same case about overvaluation.

As long as the whole market is elevated, I don't see Tesla going down. Also I don't short and I prefer to buy undervalued sectors and wait for recovery.
Very true. I wouldn't short TSLA. too hot. I think those that want to short don't "think" TSLA will have $5 billion profit in 2022. back of napkin math: let's say TSLA has net profit margin of 7%. $5 billion/0.07% = $71 billion total revenue. The question is can they produce that much revenue? I think they can, but I don't know. It will be interesting how much TSLA is going to sell in China bc of the Chinese Quartet of BYD, Nio, Xpeng, and Wuling.
oragne lovre
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:34 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by oragne lovre »

Do you think you know better than the market? If so, then go ahead and please report back to us how it goes.
The finest, albeit the most difficult, of all human achievements is being reasonable.
User avatar
eye.surgeon
Posts: 1063
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:19 pm
Location: California

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by eye.surgeon »

Gabelli2020 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:17 pm So who’s willing to go anti- Boglian to the max and do the obvious. Market capitalization of 562 billion with p.e. of 1,134!! I own a Tesla, but this is unsustainable. When it bursts fortunes will be made.
Sigh. How many billions have been lost doing this.
Last edited by eye.surgeon on Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"I would rather be certain of a good return than hopeful of a great one" | Warren Buffett
pasadena
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:23 am
Location: PNW

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by pasadena »

Honestly, people wanting to make a quick fortune by shorting Tesla are not any smarter than the ones they judge so hard. You're just gambling the other way.
User avatar
mrspock
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:49 am
Location: Vulcan

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by mrspock »

cone774413 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:33 pm
mrspock wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:32 pm Good luck with that. Never bet against a guy which can land rockets on end.... doubly so when they can do this two rockets at once.
Do you think Musk had any substantial contribution towards the engineering or design of those rockets?
Far more critical than that. Many large engineering efforts have been undone due to fools leading at the top (737 MAX, NASA's SLS, *insert military hardware project here*, BlackBerry etc), they either corner cut (*cough* Boeing *cough*), cave to shareholder pressure, or incorrectly assess the competition and/or misjudge the future (*cough* BlackBerry *cough*).

Musk to date, has shown none of these tendencies, his faults from what I see are driving his people probably too hard for too long. But of the defects one can have in a leader, I'd rather that, that some fool who doesn't understand why putting large engines on a 40+ year old fuselage is a bad idea, or why taking 20 years to build a giant rocket with tax payer money is a really bad plan, or why having a really garbage UI with an underpowered CPU isn't going to end well -- no matter what your current market share might be.

Until my current company, I never really appreciated how critical truly great leaders at the top are in an engineering firm. They make all the difference in the world. Musk is driven, a visionary, inspires his employees, has a mission and is willing to risk failure to make progress (in the R&D phase). Engineers at Tesla and SpaceX get jobs for way more money elsewhere, but that's not their motivation, they are out to change the world, and so far as they can help it, nothing is going to stop them from achieving their goals, their mission.

My current company has a similar culture so I understand this. When people bet against us, mock us, or threaten us, we will work harder, longer and move mountains -- it motivates us. There is also an intense loyalty to our m-team that I don't think you would see at companies like Ford, GM or Boeing. When we are in "war time" mode, the entire company can be focused in way I don't think is possible in other corporate cultures where everyone is there for a pay check, 9-5 etc. I suspect Tesla & SpaceX have similar cultures, so underestimating them can be dangerous to your trading account.
User avatar
mrspock
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:49 am
Location: Vulcan

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by mrspock »

eye.surgeon wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:37 pm
Gabelli2020 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:17 pm So who’s willing to go anti- Boglian to the max and do the obvious. Market capitalization of 562 billion with p.e. of 1,134!! I own a Tesla, but this is unsustainable. When it bursts fortunes will be made.
Sigh. How many billions have been lost doing this.
$35 Billion in 2020 alone.
User avatar
JoMoney
Posts: 12829
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:31 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by JoMoney »

Tesla certainly isn't a value play. I'm not a fan of it joining my S&P 500 index fund, but it is what it is. The S&P 500 will better track the broader market with it in there, for better or worse. I'm not going to up and switch to a dividend stock fund or a value fund over it (even if that does sound appealing right about now.)
That said, Tesla isn't going anywhere anytime soon, there is lots of room for them to get new market share for their product, and there potential competitors just aren't up to their level (yet).

Shorting the stock certainly doesn't seem like the right play any time soon with the new demand for shares.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
beandeveloper
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:57 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by beandeveloper »

I pretty much run from individual stocks. But when something is white-hot and everyone is talking about it - I run away FAST!

I was at a dinner party a couple of years ago when Bitcoin was on fire. One person said how a neighbor had made a KILLING. Another started talking how they were considering buying some - but they didn't know what it was.

Reminded me of the Rockefeller story where he decided to get out of the market when his shoe shine boy was giving stock tips.

Individual stocks are hard to predict. White hot stocks seem impossible to predict.
CurlyDave
Posts: 3025
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:37 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by CurlyDave »

Shorting stocks has always seemed like a particularly bad idea to me. The amount of money you can make is limited and the amount you can lose is greater than you can make if everything goes wrong for you.

The only way it makes any sense at all is if you do a huge amount of fundamental research and just absolutely know that a stock is vastly overpriced. Just a feeling you have from reading financial news and doing back of the envelope calculations is not nearly enough.

I have never shorted a stock in my entire life and never will. If you are going to do that much research pick a few companies you think are going to grow and get in early.

The only short I have ever even heard about that I thought was worth doing was when I met a guy who had a small company making fishing rods. About 50 years ago he had done a fair amount of research on where to buy the raw materials and found one supplier had good prices, but the rods he made from their materials fell apart after about a year of use. He noticed that one of his competitors started using materials from this supplier and shorted their stock. Now he had special knowledge that no one else did, but it was not insider knowledge. All companies are long since out of business.

Now let's ask the OP, what special knowledge do you have that no one else does and that is not insider knowledge? If you can't come up with a very specific answer on something important, that will be devastating to the company when it comes out, don't even think about shorting the company.
Answering a question is easy -- asking the right question is the hard part.
langlands
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:05 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by langlands »

Guess I'm the only one who owns TSLA?
000
Posts: 6542
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by 000 »

CurlyDave wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:51 am Shorting stocks has always seemed like a particularly bad idea to me. The amount of money you can make is limited and the amount you can lose is greater than you can make if everything goes wrong for you.

The only way it makes any sense at all is if you do a huge amount of fundamental research and just absolutely know that a stock is vastly overpriced. Just a feeling you have from reading financial news and doing back of the envelope calculations is not nearly enough.

I have never shorted a stock in my entire life and never will. If you are going to do that much research pick a few companies you think are going to grow and get in early.
+1
What goes up must come down 😎
pseudoiterative
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:11 am
Location: australia

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by pseudoiterative »

hoofaman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:00 pm even people like Jim Chanos have said there are much more compelling short opportunities than TSLA right now
I recently listened to Chanos interviewed on this old 2017 Financial Times alphachat podcast. A few moments I found interesting:
  1. Chanos described the basic mechanics of how short selling works, and then went into some detail about some of the failure modes he was trying to avoid in the financial crisis -- such as the counterparty who has loaned shares for short-selling using the short-seller's collateral (typically treasuries) as collateral for the counterparty's own borrowing, and then the potential scenarios where a counterparty could go bankrupt, leaving the short-seller in the position of a creditor with an IOU trying to claim back some fractional value of their own assets.
  2. there's a pretty entertaining analysis of economic exposure to China, starting with an observation from the real estate market; and finally
  3. Chanos described the mess that resulted from attempting to short AOL: their analysis suggested that AOL had reached a point where it would lose money sending out CDs to increase its user base, so they took a short position, and with the dot-com bubble mania, the stock price kept going up, until the point that Time-Warner acquired AOL for a price more or less the top of the market before the bubble popped! But then Chanos & co wanted to wash their hands of it, they didn't consider the possibility of taking a short position in (AOL)-Time-Warner! So that's one example of where a fundamental economic analysis may say one thing, but market sentiment produces an entirely different outcome for the short seller.
runninginvestor
Posts: 985
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:00 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by runninginvestor »

This was timely. As always, past performance does not equal future returns, etc. But for comparison:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/04/investin ... index.html

Headline: "Tesla short sellers lost more than the US airline industry this year"
TheBeanCounter
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:57 pm

For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by TheBeanCounter »

For those with a speculative streak, Michael Burry now has a short position on Tesla. While there have been countless intelligent people who have shorted Tesla in the past, does anybody think Burry will prove to have the direction and timing correct?

Does this make anybody more confident in shorting Tesla? Doesn't matter to most on here I assume.

Hopefully somebody didn't already start a thread on this :sharebeer
Keenobserver
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:05 pm

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by Keenobserver »

Tesla will probably drop a little when it hits Sp 500. That might be a good time to buy when day traders take their profits. Tesla is a long term hold. My invesement plan doesnt involve shorting anything.
User avatar
Anon9001
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:28 am
Location: भारत

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by Anon9001 »

My understanding is that shorting is unlimited loss via futures but by buying puts you limit the loss to premium paid. Hopefully Mr.Burry is smart enough to use puts instead of shorting via futures.
Land/Real Estate:89.4% Equities:7.6% Fixed Income:1.7% Gold:0.8% Cryptocurrency:0.5%
z3r0c00l
Posts: 2766
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:43 am
Location: NYC

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by z3r0c00l »

Equally big names in the shorting game have failed, in public and embarrassing ways, trying to short companies that are worse in my mind such as Ackman shorting Herbalife. I believe he had a reasonable case that it was little more than a pyramid scheme and that, like Lululemon and others, is bound to go bust spectacularly. But the company continues to make profits each year and the stock is doing just fine. It may fail yet, especially if Americans ever realize that the whole dietary supplement ecosystem is predicated on pseudoscience. But even the certainty that it will fail some day doesn't mean you can profit on it because the timing matters. It is costly to borrow shares (short) and you can run out of money before the market comes to grips with reality. The same is true of Tesla. I am confident it is wildly overvalued but can't possibly know when it will reach a reasonable valuation.
75% Global Stocks / 25% I-Bonds
User avatar
Candor
Posts: 795
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 4:25 pm

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by Candor »

Long-time Tesla short Jim Chanos, president and founder of New York hedge fund Kynikos Associates just yesterday stated he recently slashed his short position on Tesla. Maybe his partial capitulation is an indicator now is a good time start shorting Tesla? I certainly wouldn't chance it.
The fool, with all his other faults, has this also - he is always getting ready to live. - Epicurus (341–270 BC)
newguy123
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:44 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by newguy123 »

Gabelli2020 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:17 pm So who’s willing to go anti- Boglian to the max and do the obvious. Market capitalization of 562 billion with p.e. of 1,134!! I own a Tesla, but this is unsustainable. When it bursts fortunes will be made.
I did this way too early ... blew ~300k . Remember being early is the same as being wrong ...
Would I rather relax and make money or make money and relax ?
TheBeanCounter
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:57 pm

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by TheBeanCounter »

[merged this topic and its replies into the existing thread - moderator prudent]

I, personally, would never short a company. Perhaps I would buy puts if I was super confident. Still have never done that. Too many times in the past (Einhorn shorting Tesla for example) have I thought that Tesla was extremely overvalued, yet it keeps going up. I do believe Elon Musk is extremely uncommon and am happy that Tesla has continued to grow in success and influence. I think it is better for the world.

One of my college economics professors was telling us that Elon Musk has the unique ability to raise money whenever he wants, purely cause people believe he is going to change the world. This was about 4 years ago. Seems to have continued to be true with the amount of optimism in the public markets, reflected in their market cap.
newguy123
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:44 am

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by newguy123 »

I was short tesla earlier and lost a sizable chunk ... I'm not sticking my neck out again, with or without Burry
Would I rather relax and make money or make money and relax ?
Tamalak
Posts: 1073
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 2:29 pm

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by Tamalak »

Shorting is crazy. Why would you mess around in a negative sum environment with unlimited potential losses.
User avatar
whodidntante
Posts: 10437
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:11 pm
Location: outside the echo chamber

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by whodidntante »

Candor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:43 pm Long-time Tesla short Jim Chanos, president and founder of New York hedge fund Kynikos Associates just yesterday stated he recently slashed his short position on Tesla. Maybe his partial capitulation is an indicator now is a good time start shorting Tesla? I certainly wouldn't chance it.
His fund used to hold a position of (as I recall) -5% TSLA, which is the maximum short exposure allowed according to his fund's risk control parameters. So the fund would buy to cover to keep the desired short exposure as the short moved against him. Are you saying he's no longer max short TSLA?
TheBeanCounter
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:57 pm

Re: For those wanting to short Tesla

Post by TheBeanCounter »

Tamalak wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:50 pm Shorting is crazy. Why would you mess around in a negative sum environment with unlimited potential losses.
Potential for large gains I suppose. Uncorrelated returns, if successful.
TonyDAntonio
Posts: 644
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:32 pm

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by TonyDAntonio »

hoofaman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:00 pm You wouldn’t be the first to try this, but even people like Jim Chanos have said there are much more compelling short opportunities than TSLA right now, and he is focused more on those

I think Tesla could have negitive earnings and people would continue to bid it up. People buy TSLA because they believe someone else will pay more later, just like bitcoin, fundamentals do not apply

Just buy the market and save yourself some stress

Interesting if Chanos said this because he's been saying it's his biggest, best short position. He can afford it but he's gotten killed with this short.
newguy123
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:44 am

Re: Short Tesla?

Post by newguy123 »

TonyDAntonio wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:56 pm
hoofaman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:00 pm You wouldn’t be the first to try this, but even people like Jim Chanos have said there are much more compelling short opportunities than TSLA right now, and he is focused more on those

I think Tesla could have negitive earnings and people would continue to bid it up. People buy TSLA because they believe someone else will pay more later, just like bitcoin, fundamentals do not apply

Just buy the market and save yourself some stress

Interesting if Chanos said this because he's been saying it's his biggest, best short position. He can afford it but he's gotten killed with this short.
Ackman got killed by shorting Herbalife as well. The thing that I realize now is to never short "cult" stocks, valuations, market caps don't matter
Would I rather relax and make money or make money and relax ?
Post Reply