Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
Topic Author
xraygoggles
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:30 pm

Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by xraygoggles »

My friend is nearing retirement and has a investment portfolio of around 800k. How can this be used to get the most amount of monthly income while preserving capital growth?

I have helped switch some stuff around in his IRA, but there is cash waiting to be invested in the spouse's IRA.

Current portfolio: 730k

His IRA: 280k
VTI: 100k
VXUS: 42k
ANGL: 110k
VNQ: 25k

Her IRA: 450k
Money market fund: 450k

I believe they also have 200k or so in savings account in the bank, but I don't think they would be willing to invest in bonds. Want liquid cash.

What simple portfolio would you recommend for both of them?
“Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it ... he who doesn't ... pays it.”
snailderby
Posts: 1257
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:30 am

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by snailderby »

Keep one year of expenses in cash. Invest the rest in a Vanguard Life Strategy or target date fund that's suitable for their risk tolerance.
User avatar
galawdawg
Posts: 1435
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:59 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by galawdawg »

Your friend may wish to consider a balanced fund, such as one of the Vanguard LifeStrategy Funds or Vanguard Target Retirement Income.

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... trategy/#/
https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... file/VTINX
lakpr
Posts: 6252
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:59 am

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by lakpr »

The $200k in cash can be considered their emergency fund. I suspect, unless they live extravagantly, it will support at least 4 years of living expenses. That is a pretty healthy EF, and I wouldn't have issues with it being in Money Market funds or CDs either.

Coming back to the rest of the $730k combined portfolio, for new retirees I usually recommend a 50:50 split between stocks and bonds. The rationale being, with this allocation you can never go more than half wrong whichever direction Mr. Market takes his travels, North or South or East.

I would also place the stocks allocation mostly in Her portfolio, simply because female life expectancy is at least 6 years longer, in general wives are younger (I am generalizing, I know that this is not true of all marriages), so there is more ability to take risk.

Thus my proposed portfolio is:

His IRA:. $280k in BND (VBTLX)
Her IRA: $85k in BND (VBTLX) + $365k in VTI (VTSAX).
User avatar
arcticpineapplecorp.
Posts: 6511
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:22 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

1. how much income do they need?
2. why did they invest in fallen angels high yield bond fund?

Looking at total bond market index fund had higher sharpe and sortino ratios than ANGL (higher risk adjusted return) and total bond is negatively correlated (slightly) with the stock market (-0.03) while ANGL is .73 correlated with the market. Finally ANGL is 3X as volatile (by standard deviation) as total bond market.

source:
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
It's "Stay" the course, not Stray the Course. Buy and Hold works. You should really try it sometime. Get a plan: www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
Topic Author
xraygoggles
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:30 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by xraygoggles »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:23 pm 1. how much income do they need?
2. why did they invest in fallen angels high yield bond fund?

Looking at total bond market index fund had higher sharpe and sortino ratios than ANGL (higher risk adjusted return) and total bond is negatively correlated (slightly) with the stock market (-0.03) while ANGL is .73 correlated with the market. Finally ANGL is 3X as volatile (by standard deviation) as total bond market.

source:
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
I made those choices in the IRA. I chose it because it seems like a relatively safe corporate bond fund, at least during the current crisis. The fed is literally buying shares of ANGL (and HYG). Can't get much safer, at least in the short term.
“Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it ... he who doesn't ... pays it.”
User avatar
galawdawg
Posts: 1435
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:59 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by galawdawg »

xraygoggles wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:37 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:23 pm 1. how much income do they need?
2. why did they invest in fallen angels high yield bond fund?

Looking at total bond market index fund had higher sharpe and sortino ratios than ANGL (higher risk adjusted return) and total bond is negatively correlated (slightly) with the stock market (-0.03) while ANGL is .73 correlated with the market. Finally ANGL is 3X as volatile (by standard deviation) as total bond market.

source:
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
I made those choices in the IRA. I chose it because it seems like a relatively safe corporate bond fund, at least during the current crisis. The fed is literally buying shares of ANGL (and HYG). Can't get much safer, at least in the short term.
What were the investments in his IRA prior to your making the changes? When did you make those changes?
User avatar
arcticpineapplecorp.
Posts: 6511
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:22 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

xraygoggles wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:37 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:23 pm 1. how much income do they need?
2. why did they invest in fallen angels high yield bond fund?

Looking at total bond market index fund had higher sharpe and sortino ratios than ANGL (higher risk adjusted return) and total bond is negatively correlated (slightly) with the stock market (-0.03) while ANGL is .73 correlated with the market. Finally ANGL is 3X as volatile (by standard deviation) as total bond market.

source:
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
I made those choices in the IRA. I chose it because it seems like a relatively safe corporate bond fund, at least during the current crisis. The fed is literally buying shares of ANGL (and HYG). Can't get much safer, at least in the short term.
i know it's recovered since the worst of things this year (as did the other funds below), but is this (ANGL) really your idea of a "relative safe corporate bond fund":

Image

source:
http://quotes.morningstar.com/chart/fun ... A%5B%5D%7D

ANGL lost 22.44% between 2/21/20-3/23/20 (orange line on chart above) whereas vanguard's total bond fell 1.2% (blue line). Even the intermediate corporate bond fund (green line) fell 11.18% or half as much as ANGL.

If you want 1) a corporate bond fund and 2) relatively safety...then what about the short term corporate bond fund (also above) which only fell 6.21% over the same time period (on chart above, in yellow)? That corporate bond fund only fell 1/3rd as much as your ANGL.
It's "Stay" the course, not Stray the Course. Buy and Hold works. You should really try it sometime. Get a plan: www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
Topic Author
xraygoggles
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:30 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by xraygoggles »

Thank you for the insight, makes sense.

Just one more question: what etf do you recommend to provide high monthly income that is relatively safe?
“Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it ... he who doesn't ... pays it.”
retiredjg
Posts: 42270
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:56 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by retiredjg »

When people retire, they need to preserve what they have rather than try to grow it a lot.

Preservation is usually accomplished by using fixed income investments like bonds, CDs, etc. Unless they have more money than they need (it does not look like it) they need a good dose of investment grade bonds.

ANGL is not an investment grade bond fund according to Morningstar. It's a junk bond fund. It cannot be depended on to stabilize the portfolio. If you look, you will see that it took a large dip (about 15%) during the pandemic crash last spring. It did little to stabilize the portfolio.

I'm sure you are trying to help your friends, but the portfolio you have set up so for is far far too risky for retirees. They don't have enough money to take that much risk. You may be setting them up for a complete disaster, particularly if they get scared and sell at the wrong time.

Just one more question: what etf do you recommend to provide high monthly income that is relatively safe?
You are looking for something that does not exist. Anything that pays a high monthly income is also very high risk.

If you are going to help these people, I suggest something that is 40% to 50% stocks, the remainder being in high quality bonds (and the cash they want).

They are going to have to tap the portfolio, but cannot afford to take more than $40k from their $1 million (including the cash) a year. That $40k includes what they pay in state and federal income tax.

A possible alternative is to use some of their money to buy a SPIA (single premium immediate annuity). It is essentially like buying a pension.
User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 19733
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by ruralavalon »

xraygoggles wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:41 pm My friend is nearing retirement and has a investment portfolio of around 800k. How can this be used to get the most amount of monthly income while preserving capital growth?

I have helped switch some stuff around in his IRA, but there is cash waiting to be invested in the spouse's IRA.

Current portfolio: 730k

His IRA: 280k
VTI: 100k
VXUS: 42k
ANGL: 110k
VNQ: 25k

Her IRA: 450k
Money market fund: 450k

I believe they also have 200k or so in savings account in the bank, but I don't think they would be willing to invest in bonds. Want liquid cash.

What simple portfolio would you recommend for both of them?
xraygoggles wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:49 pm Thank you for the insight, makes sense.

Just one more question: what etf do you recommend to provide high monthly income that is relatively safe?
I suggest investing for the long-term, not based on current market conditions. I suggest investing for total return, and not focusing on dividends (income) alone.

The overall portfolio = about $930k including the savings account. That $200 savings = about 22% of the total in fixed income.

About how many years worth of livings expense (net of Social Security) does that $200k savings represent?

In my opinion during retirement a dedicated emergency fund is not really necessary, except if they require that for peace of mind.

In retirement a prime consideration is preservation of their retirement money, not generating high returns.

In my opinion VanEck Vectors Fallen Angel HiYld Bd ETF (ANGL) ER 0.35% is a bad idea. It is over 90% in high risk junk bonds, is very volatile and is not a safe fixed income fund. A REIT fund like Vanguard Real Estate ETF (VNQ) is also very volatile and not a substitute for a bond fund or other fixed income.

In retirement I suggest an asset allocation in the range 40% to 70% fixed income. Please see: Rick Ferri, Forbes (2/6/2015), "The Center of Gravity for Retirees", link.

A savings account, money market fund and bond funds can all be types of fixed income. In my opinion any good credit quality, intermediate-term or short-term bond fund with a low expense ratio can be suitable fixed income investment. The purpose of any fixed income investment is to reduce portfolio volatility (risk).

The most common bond fund used here is Vanguard Total Bond Market ETF (BND), the credit rating = A, with just 3-4% junk bonds. This illustrates the low volatility (low risk) of total bond compared to the total stock market: Portfolio Visualizer, 1993-2020.

This is my suggestion for ETFs to use if they decide on an asset allocation of 60% stocks/40% fixed income.

Savings account (22% of total, $200k)
22%, $200k

His IRA (30% of total, $280k)
25%, Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI) ER 0.03%
05%, Vanguard Total International Stock ETF (VXUS) ER 0.08%

Her IRA (48% of total, $450k)
25%, Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI) ER 0.03%
05%, Vanguard Total International Stock ETF (VXUS) ER 0.08%
18%, Vanguard Total Bond Market ETF (BND).

If they truly insist on no bond funds, then they could use a money market fund instead.

Here is a backtest of my portfolio suggestion, which indicates a historical Compound Annual Growth Rate - CAGR, defined here, of 6.53%: Portfolio Visualizer, 1997-2020.

I used the oldest share classes of the funds to get the longest possible period in the test. You can use other allocations to see historical returns for other asset allocations. But past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.In

How much will they need for annual retirement living expenses? How much will their annual Social Security benefits be?
JBTX
Posts: 7127
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:46 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by JBTX »

Seems like they have conflicting goals. They want to increase "income" but almost 70% is cash or money market.

I'd advise a target date, or life strategy about 60% stocks. Cut down EF. Over 4 years put $100k in ibonds. Keep $50k in cash.
dru808
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:42 pm
Location: mid pac

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by dru808 »

This seems like an experiment that could go horribly wrong.
65% US equity | 25% INTL equity | 10% US long bonds
User avatar
peetsperk
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:02 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by peetsperk »

xraygoggles I want to ask the most basic question: Do you have the knowledge and experience to be advising your friend how to invest their retirement savings?
raiderjkwong
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:27 am

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by raiderjkwong »

Income options that I invest in.

Bonds: BND/AGG, TLT or LDQ (3-8% yield)

REITS: O, STOR (4-5% yield)

OIl/Gas Pipelines, EPD,MMP, AMLP (10% yield)
neverpanic
Posts: 485
Joined: Sun May 10, 2020 12:26 am

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by neverpanic »

xraygoggles wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:41 pm Her IRA: 450k
Money market fund: 450k

I believe they also have 200k or so in savings account in the bank, but I don't think they would be willing to invest in bonds. Want liquid cash.
JBTX wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:54 pm Seems like they have conflicting goals. They want to increase "income" but almost 70% is cash or money market.

I'd advise a target date, or life strategy about 60% stocks. Cut down EF. Over 4 years put $100k in ibonds. Keep $50k in cash.
I don't understand the 20% cash retirement portfolio, which is actually 65-70% if she's got a modern, low-rate money market account.

That's a question I'd present to them to keep in mind and to present to a financial advisor. $50K seems like plenty. They're going to get so much more bang for the buck by putting the extra $150,000 to work somewhere else.
I am not a financial professional or guru. I'm a schmuck who got lucky 10 times. Such is the life of the trader.
Wanderingwheelz
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:52 am

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

This is a good example of why it’s never a good idea to act as a friends financial advisor. I was a financial advisor for a long time when I first graduated from college and there’s a lot more to it than what most of us think there is. It’s heavy on psychology/counseling, much more so than many of us here would think since most mistakes in investing are behavioral or difficulty in controlling impulses.

Leave it to a professional, since they’re being paid for all of the time and work involved. Folks who retired w/o an excess of assets will, more often than not, require a lot of handholding.
User avatar
galawdawg
Posts: 1435
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:59 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by galawdawg »

peetsperk wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:11 am xraygoggles I want to ask the most basic question: Do you have the knowledge and experience to be advising your friend how to invest their retirement savings?
+1. Given what OP has disclosed about what changes he already made to their portfolio, OP's friends would be well-served if OP simply pointed them to Bogleheads. If they need more direct assistance with their portfolio, then OP might suggest Vanguard PAS.
dgnative
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:27 am

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by dgnative »

I am in similar situation but I am not helping others, I am looking at and learning Investing and the markets.

Net worth working on 1 mill according to Quicken, 30% in home equity, 30% investments T, CMCSA, WMT 401k IRA.
30% cash and or equivalent annuity.
I have been Researching with bogleheads google search bar for alternatives to Vanguard VTINX Life strategy funds in Vanguard

I Prefer brick and mortar. Fidelity and Schwab are simple bus rides from me. I am still just trying to stick my big toe into mutual and indexes first I need alternatives to telecoms.
thanks
markjk
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by markjk »

snailderby wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:45 pm Keep one year of expenses in cash. Invest the rest in a Vanguard Life Strategy or target date fund that's suitable for their risk tolerance.
I like this approach. They can also adjust the years of cash to suit their comfort level. This approach is both simple and effective.

I also agree with other sentiments here on professional advice. OP, you may want to ask your friend to work with a fee only advisor to get a plan together. If you continue providing advice, how is your friend going to react when the market goes through normal volatility and the portfolio drops in value over short time frames? Will you be to blame and will it put your friendship at risk? A big part of financial advising is on the behavior side by helping clients stay the course through volatility. The allocations and numbers are easy to find. The behavior necessary to stay the course through the ups/downs is where it gets tough.
retiredjg
Posts: 42270
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:56 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by retiredjg »

ruralavalon wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:44 pm I suggest investing for total return, and not focusing on dividends (income) alone.
I think this is an important point. And probably where you and your friends are headed in the wrong direction in designing a portfolio.

Apparently, you are looking for income, but the almost $1 million they have will typically provide about $20k in income during most years. That may not be enough to cover their expenses.

To solve that problem, people often add income producing assets to the portfolio - the junk bond and the REIT are examples of this. The problem is, slanting a portfolio that far towards income producing assets results in a very risky portfolio. A very risky portfolio is the last thing retired people need.

That is why "total return" is a better choice. Total return spends both the income of a portfolio but also a tiny portion of the portfolio each year. Using the total return approach, they can take about 4% ($40k) the first year and increase their spending amount by inflation each year. So $40k the first year, with 3% inflation, would mean they can take $41,200 the second year.

It is important to remember that the $40k includes state and federal taxes, so they don't actually get to spend that much. Probably something closer to $30k - $35k.
User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 19733
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by ruralavalon »

dgnative wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:49 am I am in similar situation but I am not helping others, I am looking at and learning Investing and the markets.
A quick education for any investor is Dr. Bernstein's free short on-line pdf book, "If You Can". Also take a look at the Boglehead’s wiki, "Bogleheads® investment philosophy", and the "getting started" link I give below.

To go beyond the most basic I suggest that you also read one or two books on investing. Wiki article, "Books: recommendations and reviews".When I first stated managing my own investments, I found this tutorial very helpful in learning investing terminology/jargon and some of the investing basics. Morningstar, "Investing Classroom".



dgnative wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:49 am Net worth working on 1 mill according to Quicken, 30% in home equity, 30% investments T, CMCSA, WMT 401k IRA.
30% cash and or equivalent annuity.
I have been Researching with bogleheads google search bar for alternatives to Vanguard VTINX Life strategy funds in Vanguard

I Prefer brick and mortar. Fidelity and Schwab are simple bus rides from me. I am still just trying to stick my big toe into mutual and indexes first I need alternatives to telecoms.
thanks
A target date fund, LifeStrategy fund, or other simple balanced fund is a good place to start. It depends primarily on what funds are offered in your employer's 401k plan.

You could get some specific suggestions if you started a separate thread for yourself, and posted your full financial details. Please see this for information needed and format: "Asking Portfolio Questions".

Vanguard, Fidelity and Schwab are all good choices for fund companies, it's largely a matter of personal preference. My personal preference is Vanguard. If you really want Fidelity or Schwab, then here is some information on suitable funds with those companies: Fidelity, and Charles Schwab.
Last edited by ruralavalon on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started
User avatar
Wiggums
Posts: 2960
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by Wiggums »

galawdawg wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:50 pm Your friend may wish to consider a balanced fund, such as one of the Vanguard LifeStrategy Funds or Vanguard Target Retirement Income.

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... trategy/#/
https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... file/VTINX
+1

Keeping one years expenses in cash is not a bad idea for some people.
delamer
Posts: 10590
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by delamer »

Your friends and you should become familiar with the concept of Safe Withdrawal Rates to better understand how to take income from retirement savings.

The wiki is a good place to start: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Safe_withdrawal_rates
retired@50
Posts: 3657
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:36 pm
Location: Living in the U.S.A.

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by retired@50 »

xraygoggles wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:49 pm Just one more question: what etf do you recommend to provide high monthly income that is relatively safe?
There is no such investment. High income is joined at the hip with risk.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
Explorer
Posts: 541
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:54 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by Explorer »

dru808 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09 am This seems like an experiment that could go horribly wrong.
I agree. Many posters echoed this sentiment. As you approach retirement, capital preservation is priority #1. It is OK to get very conservative in your investments. Keep in mind the asset prices are at stretched valuations & the pandemic is not over yet with a lot of uncertainties ahead. Global economy is teetering and stock market is propped up by fiscal and monetary policies.

Stocks are forecast to have smaller returns over the course of next 5, 10 and 15 years - bonds could be even much less.

A few years before and a few years after the actual retirement is considered a RED zone where one needs to be super careful about their finances.

My 2 cents: If they have capital gains in the 2 IRAs, it is probably a good idea to cash in some right about now

All the best!
sd323232
Posts: 743
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:45 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by sd323232 »

xraygoggles wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:41 pm My friend is nearing retirement and has a investment portfolio of around 800k. How can this be used to get the most amount of monthly income while preserving capital growth?

I have helped switch some stuff around in his IRA, but there is cash waiting to be invested in the spouse's IRA.

Current portfolio: 730k

His IRA: 280k
VTI: 100k
VXUS: 42k
ANGL: 110k
VNQ: 25k

Her IRA: 450k
Money market fund: 450k

I believe they also have 200k or so in savings account in the bank, but I don't think they would be willing to invest in bonds. Want liquid cash.

What simple portfolio would you recommend for both of them?
just make sure you make it clear you are not responsible for any losses, that is if portfolio dips 50%, to 400K.
Kaktus
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by Kaktus »

I think you have done your frind w wife a great favour in getting a better grip on things what I understand. I would not move on further in suggesting the alloccation for the long withdrawal phase. You could describe to him some different 30year scenarios and some books. Thats some work in itself. But I would not take on their decision even if I understand it is very tempting. 50%+ in the money market, sheesh!
fabis
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: Retiree with sub-1M portfolio: need income.

Post by fabis »

Coming to an internet forum asking advice about what you should do with other people's finances is never a good thing.

They need to hire a professional or take the reins themselves. Lead them to water.
Post Reply