HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

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framistat
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HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by framistat »

Contemplating moving my cash account from Vanguard no-longer-Prime at .57% to HMBradley at 1-3%. I should be at 3% quickly with no problem maintaining.

The slight concern is getting the money out on a regular basis to pay credit card, utilities, insurance, etc. I prefer not to change all the autopays over to Hatch bank, but would rather do what I'm doing now with Vanguard, which is make one ACH transfer per month into my credit union checking account, and autopay from there. Does HMBradley even have autopay? No mention on their website.

In their FAQ, HMBradley states "We do not yet allow wire transfers from your HMBradley account."

The alternative seems to be to write a check for deposit from HMBradley to my credit union. Do they provide starter checks when an account is opened, how long did that take, or do you just get your own printed by a third party?

HMBradley is a NOW account, which according to ConsumerFinance.gov:

"Most demand deposit accounts (DDAs) let you withdraw your money without advance notice, but the term also includes accounts that require six days or less of advance notice.
NOW accounts are essentially checking accounts where you earn interest on the money you have deposited. With a NOW account, the bank or credit union has the right to require at least seven days written notice of a withdrawal, though this is rarely done."

Everything about the HMBradley account seems to be designed to slow withdrawals. Since I'm only making one withdrawal per month, this is not a big concern. Anyone see any flaws in my plan?

Nothing on their website re ATM daily withdrawal limits... one nearby ATM is on their Moneypass network, so no fees, anyone have any experience? is the limit governed by the individual bank, or the ATM network?

TIA.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by framistat »

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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by nisiprius »

HMBradley is not a bank even though it calls its product a "bank account."

(That probably explains why they don't offer the full range of services banks customarily offer).

For example, if you go to the FDIC bankfind site, you will not be able to find them. They seem to be part of an emerging category of fintech companies that appear to be encouraging you to think of them as banks. Two others include Robinhood's "Cash" accounts and Beam. There's a thread on Beam and some tangential discussion of HMBradley.

Exactly what these services are isn't clear. You'll see that HMBradley is "powered by Hatch." Hatch is a bank and shows up on the FDIC "findbank" service, but it doesn't offer accounts to what it calls "regular people." It "provides a fintech platform called Powered by Hatch" to companies like HMBradley.

So the idea is that HMBradley and the others are not banks and are not themselves FDIC-insured, but they promise that they will take your money and keep it in accounts at FDIC-insured banks.

HMBradley isn't Beam but I think that Beam proves that details like "it isn't a bank" matter. Beam says
Your Beam account is a bank account, NOT an investment account... Funds are placed at one of nearly 200 established FDIC-insured by banks, some publicly-traded, that Beam works with. Beam itself is not a bank nor an FDIC-insured by banks financial institution. In technical terms, your Beam funds are held in a Demand Deposit Account (DDA),
Given that description, would you have expected this to be possible?

"This start-up promised higher interest rates on savings. Now some customers are struggling to get their money back."

I would not consider a "bank account" at a firm that is not a bank. I am disappointed that firms that aren't banks are allowed to do this.
Last edited by nisiprius on Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by framistat »

Thank you for that link - read through - nasty. Appreciate the help.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Retired1809 »

So H.M. Bradley isn't a bank at all?

If you were walking around Times Square in NYC and some stranger offered you an interest rate of 3%, would you give this stranger your hard-earned money?

For risk assets, buy stock index funds. For your safe money, stick with federally-insured accounts or US Treasurys.

" There's a sucker born every minute " is a phrase closely associated with P. T. Barnum , an American showman of the mid-19th century, although there is no evidence that he actually said it. Early examples of its use are found among gamblers and confidence tricksters.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by patrick »

HMBradley does allow ACH transfers out. They do the opposite of slowing withdrawals -- transfers initiated at HMBradley have a $2500 inbound limit but they allow larger amounts outbound. They give an account and routing number (the later belonging to Hatch Bank) so you can initiate transfers from outside. The ATM withdrawal limit is $400 per day. Be sure you understand the interest qualification -- the savings rate is calculated on total withdrawals versus total deposits in each quarter, so you may not want to deposit money you plan to spend soon, and a transfer from Vanguard might not qualify as a direct deposit.

Beam, on the other hand, apparently doesn't give account/routing numbers or a debit card. Beam's app store reviews are also full of complaints that money can't be withdrawn, going back for months.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by framistat »

For the record, I did some research - there is very little information and few real reported experiences with HMBradley available online, which led me to search here and make this inquiry. Hardly "sucker" behavior.

And promotional interest rates can be that high for a short time. I'm not so naive to believe that rate would last.

I'm glad I asked here and happy with the valuable response. Please don't spoil a good experience.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by nisiprius »

HMBradley company size: 11-50.

Hatch Bank company size: 2-10.

Number of employees at my little local brick-and-mortar bank, with only a single location (no other branches): 136.

Maybe that shows the innate kewlness and efficiency of online-only financial institutions. Is there any reason to be concerned about your money being held at a bank all of whose employees can fit into a minivan, as long as it's FDIC-insured?
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Pegasus_RPG »

The Financials tab of BankFind for Hatch Bank is interesting as well...just under $40K on deposit as of the end of June 2020. This confirms what I suspected about HMBradley's savings tier criteria: the goal is to rapidly ramp up amounts on deposit at Hatch (I presume so they can make loans and earn money that way.) This also explains HMB's easy offers of credit/credit cards, as that's how HMB makes money, besides whatever compensation deal they have with Hatch for increasing their funds on deposit. So I'm curious how much Hatch's total deposits figure will increase by the end of the year with how aggressive HMB's interest rate is and how much er, interest HMB is getting.

FWIW, I jumped into the HMB pool already so I'm on this ride too.

At least Hatch has a "Full Service Brick and Mortar Office" in San Marcos I could drive to in the worst case. :P
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by framistat »

Wouldn't that be just under $40M, since it's in 000's?
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

framistat wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:21 am Wouldn't that be just under $40M, since it's in 000's?
Yes, that is correct.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by nisiprius »

Pegasus_RPG wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:30 amAt least Hatch has a "Full Service Brick and Mortar Office" in San Marcos I could drive to in the worst case. :P
Google Maps does not know where "hatch bank" is in San Marcos.

The FDIC says it's at 1001 W San Marcos Blvd., San Marcus.

See posting below. Yes, here it is. It's in a typical-looking neighborhood-sized strip mall, with the usual strip mall things. I wonder if it "changed its name" or if its a completely different institution occupying the same storefront. (It was founded in 1982 and changed its name, see below).

Image
Last edited by nisiprius on Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by framistat »

They changed their name in April 2019, if you look them up under the old name you'll find them.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ranch ... 17.1880099
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by nisiprius »

framistat wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:54 pm They changed their name in April 2019, if you look them up under the old name you'll find them.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ranch ... 17.1880099
Thanks! I corrected my posting above.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by nisiprius »

It is indeed a name change, on a bank established in 1982; S&P Global, in a January, 2019 news item,says
Rancho Santa Fe Thrift & Loan Association changed its name to Hatch Bank, effective April 12, according to the California Department of Business Oversight's monthly bulletin.
Deposit Accounts report shows an "A" "health rating;" five employees at one location. The "statistics" report shows $39.5 million in deposits.

The DepositAccounts report says "Rates: Sorry, we do not have rate data for Hatch Bank."

Image

(More data is available at the DepositAccounts report linked above).


I can't find either "Hatch Bank" or "Rancho Santa Fe Thrift and Loan" mentioned in the directory of the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by BV3273 »

I’m throwing $10 per check in my account to see how things progress. Worth the gamble IMHO.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

I put 15k and will likely ramp to 100k in January when the rates bumps from 1 to 3%. I might also open an account under wife’s name to get another 100k on deposit there.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Pegasus_RPG »

framistat wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:21 am Wouldn't that be just under $40M, since it's in 000's?
Oops, you're right. I totally missed that. :oops: That makes me feel a lot better.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by protagonist »

On Oct. 28 I transferred $100 to HMB from my Fidelity account on opening an HMB account. It took 3 days for the funds to appear in my account, during which I decided to take my money out of HMB and close the account (due to lack of trust in HMB on my part).
On Oct. 31 I attempted to transfer the $100, which finally appeared in my HMB account, back to Fidelity. I immediately saw a notice stating "transfer completed", leaving me a zero balance at HMB.
As of today, Nov. 3, the funds still have not appeared in my Fidelity account.
I tried the chat feature at the HMB site today to get answers but the feature was "down".

ADDENDUM: That was when I checked earlier today.
I just checked Fidelity again (4:20 PM) and the money was just received by Fidelity. So I was able to get all of my funds out.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by mpsz »

protagonist wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:15 pm On Oct. 28 I transferred $100 to HMB from my Fidelity account on opening an HMB account. It took 3 days for the funds to appear in my account, during which I decided to take my money out of HMB and close the account (due to lack of trust in HMB on my part).
On Oct. 31 I attempted to transfer the $100, which finally appeared in my HMB account, back to Fidelity. I immediately saw a notice stating "transfer completed", leaving me a zero balance at HMB.
As of today, Nov. 3, the funds still have not appeared in my Fidelity account.
I tried the chat feature at the HMB site today to get answers but the feature was "down".

ADDENDUM: That was when I checked earlier today.
I just checked Fidelity again (4:20 PM) and the money was just received by Fidelity. So I was able to get all of my funds out.
To be fair, if you requested the transfer on Saturday 10/31, then Monday 11/2 is really "day 0" and that's when they will start working on your transfer. Arriving at Fidelity on day 1 or day 2 is reasonable.

Closing chat for an entire business day, presumably because of the election, is very unusual. I understand giving employees time to vote, but the entire day off seems excessive.
Sorry, we aren't online at the moment.

HMBradley customer support is unavailable today, Tuesday, November 3. We'll be available for live support again tomorrow, November 4.

Please leave a message and we'll get back to you during regular support hours of 9am-5pm PDT, M-F.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

mpsz wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:45 am
protagonist wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:15 pm On Oct. 28 I transferred $100 to HMB from my Fidelity account on opening an HMB account. It took 3 days for the funds to appear in my account, during which I decided to take my money out of HMB and close the account (due to lack of trust in HMB on my part).
On Oct. 31 I attempted to transfer the $100, which finally appeared in my HMB account, back to Fidelity. I immediately saw a notice stating "transfer completed", leaving me a zero balance at HMB.
As of today, Nov. 3, the funds still have not appeared in my Fidelity account.
I tried the chat feature at the HMB site today to get answers but the feature was "down".

ADDENDUM: That was when I checked earlier today.
I just checked Fidelity again (4:20 PM) and the money was just received by Fidelity. So I was able to get all of my funds out.
To be fair, if you requested the transfer on Saturday 10/31, then Monday 11/2 is really "day 0" and that's when they will start working on your transfer. Arriving at Fidelity on day 1 or day 2 is reasonable.

Closing chat for an entire business day, presumably because of the election, is very unusual. I understand giving employees time to vote, but the entire day off seems excessive.
Sorry, we aren't online at the moment.

HMBradley customer support is unavailable today, Tuesday, November 3. We'll be available for live support again tomorrow, November 4.

Please leave a message and we'll get back to you during regular support hours of 9am-5pm PDT, M-F.
I also had a minor issue yesterday when trying to log into my account and encountered the closed chat. However, I emailed the customer service and received a reply and a resolution to my issue within 2 hours.

I'm sort of happy that most people don't trust them because if they had too much success they will be more likely to lower that interest rate sooner.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by protagonist »

mpsz wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:45 am
protagonist wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:15 pm On Oct. 28 I transferred $100 to HMB from my Fidelity account on opening an HMB account. It took 3 days for the funds to appear in my account, during which I decided to take my money out of HMB and close the account (due to lack of trust in HMB on my part).
On Oct. 31 I attempted to transfer the $100, which finally appeared in my HMB account, back to Fidelity. I immediately saw a notice stating "transfer completed", leaving me a zero balance at HMB.
As of today, Nov. 3, the funds still have not appeared in my Fidelity account.
I tried the chat feature at the HMB site today to get answers but the feature was "down".

ADDENDUM: That was when I checked earlier today.
I just checked Fidelity again (4:20 PM) and the money was just received by Fidelity. So I was able to get all of my funds out.
To be fair, if you requested the transfer on Saturday 10/31, then Monday 11/2 is really "day 0" and that's when they will start working on your transfer. Arriving at Fidelity on day 1 or day 2 is reasonable.

Closing chat for an entire business day, presumably because of the election, is very unusual. I understand giving employees time to vote, but the entire day off seems excessive.
Sorry, we aren't online at the moment.

HMBradley customer support is unavailable today, Tuesday, November 3. We'll be available for live support again tomorrow, November 4.

Please leave a message and we'll get back to you during regular support hours of 9am-5pm PDT, M-F.
I agree with your statements above, which is why I posted the addendum.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by protagonist »

BV3273 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:55 pm I’m throwing $10 per check in my account to see how things progress. Worth the gamble IMHO.
Fair enough, but if they become problematic, consider that it will likely not happen tomorrow. Beam was operating for quite some time before people suddenly had problems. So my advice is to go with your gut and your mind on this based on the available information (including what people are posting here), and not based on whether your $10 is still available when you decide to make a huge deposit in the future. How it progresses is irrelevant....if it goes bad it will probably progress just fine until suddenly one day it does not.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by whodidntante »

BV3273 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:55 pm I’m throwing $10 per check in my account to see how things progress. Worth the gamble IMHO.
It's highly interesting to me that anyone would take what they see as a gamble for a 3% return in what's sold as a risk-free asset. I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

whodidntante wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:10 pm
BV3273 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:55 pm I’m throwing $10 per check in my account to see how things progress. Worth the gamble IMHO.
It's highly interesting to me that anyone would take what they see as a gamble for a 3% return in what's sold as a risk-free asset. I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products.
Not a huge gamble IMO. FDIC insured and the bank has been around for a few decades.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by nisiprius »

Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:25 pm
whodidntante wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:10 pm
BV3273 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:55 pm I’m throwing $10 per check in my account to see how things progress. Worth the gamble IMHO.
It's highly interesting to me that anyone would take what they see as a gamble for a 3% return in what's sold as a risk-free asset. I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products.
Not a huge gamble IMO. FDIC insured and the bank has been around for a few decades.
HMBradley itself is not a bank and HMBradley itself is not FDIC insured.

HMBradley promises that they put your money in an FDIC-insured bank, but that's just an ordinary business promise. They probably will, but if they don't it's just like any other business breaking a promise.

I don't think there's much risk of permanently losing all your money, but if HMBradley doesn't thrive, I think there's a significant risk of delays, hassles and aggravation... and a risk of following the rules yet failing to get the promised amounts of interest.

The unanswered question is "how can HMBradley possibly pay 3% if all that it does is to put your money into Hatch Bank?" It's too good to be true and I wouldn't want to try it without having a crystal-clear answer to that question.

There are two likely answers to this question. One is that they have set up complicated hoops to jump through, including tiers and delays, that means that most depositors will not succeed in getting much money into the top tiers--the average rates actually paid to real customers will be much lower than that.

The second is that the advertised rates are not sustainable, and are being temporarily propped up by burning capital. The presentation encourages you to think that you will have a long-term relationship with HMBradley, that the tier terms and conditions a permanent, and that after a few months you will manage to enough to get most of your money up to tier 1 and keep it there for years.

But, of course, "savings tiers are subject to change."

Image

Given the spread between Tiers 3, 2, and even tier 1, and the current "going rate" for FDIC-insured savings accounts at other banks, I suspect they are not even close to sustainable and that "subject to change" may happen sooner rather than later. I wonder if the whole plan was designed when banks were paying much more, and that the drop in interest rates has put them in a bind.

Which gets us to the third question. If there are problems, and if there are large numbers of customers experiencing them, how effective is a company with "11-50" employees going to be in resolving them promptly?
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

Of course it’s subject to change and unsustainable. Who cares? I will milk it as long as possible!
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by nisiprius »

Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:05 pm Of course it’s subject to change and unsustainable. Who cares? I will milk it as long as possible!
Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by patrick »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:53 pm HMBradley promises that they put your money in an FDIC-insured bank, but that's just an ordinary business promise. They probably will, but if they don't it's just like any other business breaking a promise.

I don't think there's much risk of permanently losing all your money, but if HMBradley doesn't thrive, I think there's a significant risk of delays, hassles and aggravation... and a risk of following the rules yet failing to get the promised amounts of interest.
It would not matter much if there were a risk of not getting promised interest from the big banks because they promise so little. Note that HMBradley pays interest monthly, but Porte only pays quarterly. The risk of delays in accessing your money exists with any financial institution, including large traditional banks. See https://www.bankrate.com/banking/checki ... -restored/ for a recent example.
The unanswered question is "how can HMBradley possibly pay 3% if all that it does is to put your money into Hatch Bank?" It's too good to be true and I wouldn't want to try it without having a crystal-clear answer to that question.

There are two likely answers to this question. One is that they have set up complicated hoops to jump through, including tiers and delays, that means that most depositors will not succeed in getting much money into the top tiers--the average rates actually paid to real customers will be much lower than that.

The second is that the advertised rates are not sustainable, and are being temporarily propped up by burning capital. The presentation encourages you to think that you will have a long-term relationship with HMBradley, that the tier terms and conditions a permanent, and that after a few months you will manage to enough to get most of your money up to tier 1 and keep it there for years.

But, of course, "savings tiers are subject to change."
Interest rates are subject to change elsewhere. For instance, Ally cut there interest rate from 0.80% to 0.60% recently and they reserve the right to drop it even lower. I would agree that HMBradley is likely to lower rates (and/or lower the balance cap) soon, but they would likely still be above the standard interest rates even after the cut.

The first strategy may have been their plan, but might fail. What if they end up with something like 75% of customers using it as a regular checking account with $2,000 average balances earning 0.5% interest, but the other 25% of customers use it as long term savings with $50,000 balances earning 3% interest? In this case a large majority of customers are at the lower rate, but the overwhelming majority of dollars are at the top rate.
Given the spread between Tiers 3, 2, and even tier 1, and the current "going rate" for FDIC-insured savings accounts at other banks, I suspect they are not even close to sustainable and that "subject to change" may happen sooner rather than later. I wonder if the whole plan was designed when banks were paying much more, and that the drop in interest rates has put them in a bind.
Depending on your balance and what you are willing to do, the going rate at directly FDIC/NCUA insured accounts may not be that much lower. For instance you can get:

2% on $20K at Elements Financial Credit Union; requires 15 withdrawals per month but bill pays count
3.3% on $20K at Evansville Teachers Federal Credit Union; requires 15 debit card purchases per month
3.5% on $10K at Devon Bank; requires 12 debit card purchases of at least $3 each per month
6.17% on $1K at Digital Credit Union
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:05 pm Of course it’s subject to change and unsustainable. Who cares? I will milk it as long as possible!
Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
protagonist
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by protagonist »

Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:20 pm
nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:05 pm Of course it’s subject to change and unsustainable. Who cares? I will milk it as long as possible!
Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
It's actually very different.
It's clear how credit cards profit off average consumers, since the "average consumer" runs up something like 4-5 figure credit card debt compounding at 21% annually for years in return for , say, a seat on a flight to Paris that he/she may or may not take. If you understand that you can profit from it and both you and the CC issuer are happy since it would take many of you to offset the profits they make from one "average consumer" in the long run.

But like Nisiprius asked, what is your guess as to where your 3% comes from? I certainly have no clue.

And like whodidntante stated above, " I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products."

I second that. Weird usually isn't good for financial products, If you don't understand something, and understand it well, you probably should not invest in it. In this case, I don't understand it.
Escapevelocity
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

protagonist wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:20 pm
nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:05 pm Of course it’s subject to change and unsustainable. Who cares? I will milk it as long as possible!
Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
It's actually very different.
It's clear how credit cards profit off average consumers, since the "average consumer" runs up something like 4-5 figure credit card debt compounding at 21% annually for years in return for , say, a seat on a flight to Paris that he/she may or may not take. If you understand that you can profit from it and both you and the CC issuer are happy since it would take many of you to offset the profits they make from one "average consumer" in the long run.

But like Nisiprius asked, what is your guess as to where your 3% comes from? I certainly have no clue.

And like whodidntante stated above, " I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products."

I second that. Weird usually isn't good for financial products, If you don't understand something, and understand it well, you probably should not invest in it. In this case, I don't understand it.
Maybe a better comparison is when Wells Fargo and Chase give large 500 dollar banking bonuses when you transfer new assets into a new account. They are effectively “buying” new deposits in an attempt to acquire new customers. Obviously it’s not a sustainable offer more like a temporary sweetener. Also they generate debit card transaction fees. Also they know most customers will get on board from the lure of the 3% offer but only actuality the 1 or 0.5 percent conditions as laid out in the offer. Like one of those arcade games where you try to grab the stuffed animal with the soft grabber.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by MikeG62 »

protagonist wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:20 pm
nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:05 pm Of course it’s subject to change and unsustainable. Who cares? I will milk it as long as possible!
Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
It's actually very different.
It's clear how credit cards profit off average consumers, since the "average consumer" runs up something like 4-5 figure credit card debt compounding at 21% annually for years in return for , say, a seat on a flight to Paris that he/she may or may not take. If you understand that you can profit from it and both you and the CC issuer are happy since it would take many of you to offset the profits they make from one "average consumer" in the long run.

But like Nisiprius asked, what is your guess as to where your 3% comes from? I certainly have no clue.

And like whodidntante stated above, " I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products."

I second that. Weird usually isn't good for financial products, If you don't understand something, and understand it well, you probably should not invest in it. In this case, I don't understand it.
+1 (or maybe it's +2 or +3 or +4).

There is an old investing axiom which goes something like "if you can't explain it to a 12 year old and have them understand it, then don't invest in it". This seems to fall under that heading.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
mhop
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by mhop »

MikeG62 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:02 am
protagonist wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:20 pm
nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:05 pm Of course it’s subject to change and unsustainable. Who cares? I will milk it as long as possible!
Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
It's actually very different.
It's clear how credit cards profit off average consumers, since the "average consumer" runs up something like 4-5 figure credit card debt compounding at 21% annually for years in return for , say, a seat on a flight to Paris that he/she may or may not take. If you understand that you can profit from it and both you and the CC issuer are happy since it would take many of you to offset the profits they make from one "average consumer" in the long run.

But like Nisiprius asked, what is your guess as to where your 3% comes from? I certainly have no clue.

And like whodidntante stated above, " I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products."

I second that. Weird usually isn't good for financial products, If you don't understand something, and understand it well, you probably should not invest in it. In this case, I don't understand it.
+1 (or maybe it's +2 or +3 or +4).

There is an old investing axiom which goes something like "if you can't explain it to a 12 year old and have them understand it, then don't invest in it". This seems to fall under that heading.
Lake Michigan Credit Union has been offering 3% rates for over 5 years. For me to get that rate I spend exactly $5 a month on a debit card yet here we are years later with no change. That account has truly been one of the easiest financial decisions I've made considering rates have been slowly dropping elsewhere. When HMBradley and Hatch swell their active accounts they can easily pivot to hawking credit cards and car loans. I don't think the average user is putting anywhere close to $100k in this account and I also suspect the rate will stay but the cap may lower.

5% Netspend rate has lasted for years as well though their cap did lower significantly.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by mhop »

mhop wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:23 am
MikeG62 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:02 am
protagonist wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:20 pm
nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
It's actually very different.
It's clear how credit cards profit off average consumers, since the "average consumer" runs up something like 4-5 figure credit card debt compounding at 21% annually for years in return for , say, a seat on a flight to Paris that he/she may or may not take. If you understand that you can profit from it and both you and the CC issuer are happy since it would take many of you to offset the profits they make from one "average consumer" in the long run.

But like Nisiprius asked, what is your guess as to where your 3% comes from? I certainly have no clue.

And like whodidntante stated above, " I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products."

I second that. Weird usually isn't good for financial products, If you don't understand something, and understand it well, you probably should not invest in it. In this case, I don't understand it.
+1 (or maybe it's +2 or +3 or +4).

There is an old investing axiom which goes something like "if you can't explain it to a 12 year old and have them understand it, then don't invest in it". This seems to fall under that heading.
Lake Michigan Credit Union has been offering 3% rates for over 5 years. For me to get that rate I spend exactly $5 a month on a debit card yet here we are years later with no change. That account has truly been one of the easiest financial decisions I've made considering rates have been slowly dropping elsewhere. When HMBradley and Hatch swell their active accounts they can easily pivot to hawking credit cards and car loans. I don't think the average user is putting anywhere close to $100k in this account and I also suspect the rate will stay but the cap may lower.

5% Netspend rate has lasted for years as well though their cap did lower significantly.
Also to add, HMBradley has a section called One-Click Credit with financial offers "you qualify for" from Hatch Bank by doing a soft inquiry monthly. In other words, if you consent to these offers (not required to do so) they probably receive a commission and then another if you sign up for a card or loan. So yes, their goal is to clearly get these users into other credit products that are more favorable financially to the bank. No different than offering better loan rates or cheaper credit as money is fungible, only real requirement is that they hit the right mix of users that leaves them profitable/sustainable.
Escapevelocity
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

MikeG62 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:02 am
protagonist wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:20 pm
nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:05 pm Of course it’s subject to change and unsustainable. Who cares? I will milk it as long as possible!
Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
It's actually very different.
It's clear how credit cards profit off average consumers, since the "average consumer" runs up something like 4-5 figure credit card debt compounding at 21% annually for years in return for , say, a seat on a flight to Paris that he/she may or may not take. If you understand that you can profit from it and both you and the CC issuer are happy since it would take many of you to offset the profits they make from one "average consumer" in the long run.

But like Nisiprius asked, what is your guess as to where your 3% comes from? I certainly have no clue.

And like whodidntante stated above, " I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products."

I second that. Weird usually isn't good for financial products, If you don't understand something, and understand it well, you probably should not invest in it. In this case, I don't understand it.
+1 (or maybe it's +2 or +3 or +4).

There is an old investing axiom which goes something like "if you can't explain it to a 12 year old and have them understand it, then don't invest in it". This seems to fall under that heading.
Agree 100% for investing in equity or even corporate bonds. For an online savings account, I don't think this really applies.
MikeG62
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Location: New Jersey

Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by MikeG62 »

Escapevelocity wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:54 am
MikeG62 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:02 am
protagonist wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:20 pm
nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm Of course.

But what is your personal guess on where your 3% is coming from? Is it coming from investment earnings, and if so, in what kind of investment? Or are you taking that 3% away from someone else, and if so, whom?
This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
It's actually very different.
It's clear how credit cards profit off average consumers, since the "average consumer" runs up something like 4-5 figure credit card debt compounding at 21% annually for years in return for , say, a seat on a flight to Paris that he/she may or may not take. If you understand that you can profit from it and both you and the CC issuer are happy since it would take many of you to offset the profits they make from one "average consumer" in the long run.

But like Nisiprius asked, what is your guess as to where your 3% comes from? I certainly have no clue.

And like whodidntante stated above, " I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products."

I second that. Weird usually isn't good for financial products, If you don't understand something, and understand it well, you probably should not invest in it. In this case, I don't understand it.
+1 (or maybe it's +2 or +3 or +4).

There is an old investing axiom which goes something like "if you can't explain it to a 12 year old and have them understand it, then don't invest in it". This seems to fall under that heading.
Agree 100% for investing in equity or even corporate bonds. For an online savings account, I don't think this really applies.
Or maybe it does when you can't be 100% sure your cash is being held by an FDIC insured bank or NCUA insured CU. There are risks worth taking and risk not worth taking. Cash is not a place to take risk.

I bet the folks who are having issues getting their money out of Beam thought the same thing as you.

"This start-up promised higher interest rates on savings. Now some customers are struggling to get their money back"
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/beam-pr ... -back.html
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
Escapevelocity
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

MikeG62 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:39 am
Escapevelocity wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:54 am
MikeG62 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:02 am
protagonist wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:20 pm

This is no different than travel hacking via credit card bonuses. Astute consumers can sometimes exploit the sweet spots of bank offerings that are only profitable based on the average consumer behaviors and spend patterns.
It's actually very different.
It's clear how credit cards profit off average consumers, since the "average consumer" runs up something like 4-5 figure credit card debt compounding at 21% annually for years in return for , say, a seat on a flight to Paris that he/she may or may not take. If you understand that you can profit from it and both you and the CC issuer are happy since it would take many of you to offset the profits they make from one "average consumer" in the long run.

But like Nisiprius asked, what is your guess as to where your 3% comes from? I certainly have no clue.

And like whodidntante stated above, " I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products."

I second that. Weird usually isn't good for financial products, If you don't understand something, and understand it well, you probably should not invest in it. In this case, I don't understand it.
+1 (or maybe it's +2 or +3 or +4).

There is an old investing axiom which goes something like "if you can't explain it to a 12 year old and have them understand it, then don't invest in it". This seems to fall under that heading.
Agree 100% for investing in equity or even corporate bonds. For an online savings account, I don't think this really applies.
Or maybe it does when you can't be 100% sure your cash is being held by an FDIC insured bank or NCUA insured CU. There are risks worth taking and risk not worth taking. Cash is not a place to take risk.

I bet the folks who are having issues getting their money out of Beam thought the same thing as you.

"This start-up promised higher interest rates on savings. Now some customers are struggling to get their money back"
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/beam-pr ... -back.html
Beam was a whole different animal featuring some sort of complicated sweep account and a "network of banks" they someone divided up the deposits in some opaque manner. I would never have gone in for that.

At HM Bradley, I have an account number at Hatch bank with a simple ABA routing and account numbers. I validated the ability to push and pull funds from the account using simple ACH procedures. They have all processed without issues.
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PicassoSparks
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by PicassoSparks »

Hatch is a wholly owned subsidiary of https://www.firstrust.com/ which appears to be an actual real normal bank.

Hatch used to be called "Rancho Santa Fe Thrift & Loan Association"
bob1234
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by bob1234 »

Since the routing number is for Hatch Bank, is it safe to assume that if a transfer is initiated from an external bank, then it will never pass though HMBradley, even temporarily?
Escapevelocity
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Escapevelocity »

bob1234 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:23 pm Since the routing number is for Hatch Bank, is it safe to assume that if a transfer is initiated from an external bank, then it will never pass though HMBradley, even temporarily?
I don’t see how it could be. The routing number is clearly belonging to Hatch Bank. When I linked via other banks the ACH set up clearly identified the routing number as Hatch. No mention of HM Bradley.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by BV3273 »

whodidntante wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:10 pm
BV3273 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:55 pm I’m throwing $10 per check in my account to see how things progress. Worth the gamble IMHO.
It's highly interesting to me that anyone would take what they see as a gamble for a 3% return in what's sold as a risk-free asset. I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products.
As I stated I’m not trying up a significant sum in this account. It’s a test run. I find it stranger that folks on here tie up large sums for 5 years with a 1% return, but hey that’s just me.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by whodidntante »

BV3273 wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:18 am
whodidntante wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:10 pm
BV3273 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:55 pm I’m throwing $10 per check in my account to see how things progress. Worth the gamble IMHO.
It's highly interesting to me that anyone would take what they see as a gamble for a 3% return in what's sold as a risk-free asset. I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products.
As I stated I’m not trying up a significant sum in this account. It’s a test run. I find it stranger that folks on here tie up large sums for 5 years with a 1% return, but hey that’s just me.
Agreed.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by protagonist »

whodidntante wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:17 pm
BV3273 wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:18 am
whodidntante wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:10 pm
BV3273 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:55 pm I’m throwing $10 per check in my account to see how things progress. Worth the gamble IMHO.
It's highly interesting to me that anyone would take what they see as a gamble for a 3% return in what's sold as a risk-free asset. I'm not saying HMBradley is a scam, but it's certainly weird, and weird usually isn't good for financial products.
As I stated I’m not trying up a significant sum in this account. It’s a test run. I find it stranger that folks on here tie up large sums for 5 years with a 1% return, but hey that’s just me.
Agreed.
I would much rather get .5% less interest in a bank account than leave money tied up in a CD for 5 years at 1%.

But regarding the 2% at HMV, if you are not depositing a significant amount of money, it almost seems pointless at 3% uninsured. There are ways of getting at least 1% in an insured bank, at least today. A 2% difference on $10K is $200/yr, which to me would not be worth the risk of leaving 10K uninsured (or even $250 difference cf. 0.5% in the bank), especially in these uncertain times.

The question is:
1. Do you think there is more than a 1/40-1/50 chance that HMB will go bankrupt or otherwise deprive you of your funds (no good answer to that), and,
2. (this would be even more of a factor to me) would a small chance of losing 10K be more disturbing to you than the upside of making an additional $200/yr.



That said, I suppose our brokerage accounts are all uninsured.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by PicassoSparks »

Why do you think that Hatch Bank is not FDIC insured?

Asking because it sure looks like they are.
https://research2.fdic.gov/bankfind/det ... se&tabId=2
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by nisiprius »

Hatch Bank is FDIC-insured. HMBradley is not. HMBradley is not a bank at all. The whole question here is the safety of so-called "bank accounts" that are merely accounts at fintech companies, managed by fintech companies, regulated as fintech companies, and not as banks--fintech companies that use FDIC-insured banks as custodians for their customers' money. The difference sounds like a technicality, but it wasn't in the the case of Beam. Some people are saying that in hindsight it should have been easy to see that Beam was problematical, and that HMBradley doesn't have any of the warning signs that people ought to have spotted with Beam.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by Wiggums »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:25 am Hatch Bank is FDIC-insured. HMBradley is not. HMBradley is not a bank at all. The whole question here is the safety of so-called "bank accounts" that are merely accounts at fintech companies, managed by fintech companies, regulated as fintech companies, and not as banks--fintech companies that use FDIC-insured banks as custodians for their customers' money. The difference sounds like a technicality, but it wasn't in the the case of Beam. Some people are saying that in hindsight it should have been easy to see that Beam was problematical, and that HMBradley doesn't have any of the warning signs that people ought to have spotted with Beam.
I learned something new. Thanks for this response.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by techrules »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:25 am Hatch Bank is FDIC-insured. HMBradley is not. HMBradley is not a bank at all. The whole question here is the safety of so-called "bank accounts" that are merely accounts at fintech companies, managed by fintech companies, regulated as fintech companies, and not as banks--fintech companies that use FDIC-insured banks as custodians for their customers' money. The difference sounds like a technicality, but it wasn't in the the case of Beam. Some people are saying that in hindsight it should have been easy to see that Beam was problematical, and that HMBradley doesn't have any of the warning signs that people ought to have spotted with Beam.
On the HMBradley Website they have indicated this on the account page.
Doesnt this tie Hatch to HMBradley ?

All accounts are provided by Hatch Bank, Member FDIC.
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Re: HMBradley - no ACH transfers out? ATM w/d limit? checks?

Post by PicassoSparks »

Here's an interesting round up article about the "Challenger Back" finch market.
https://fortune.com/2020/11/18/challeng ... dley-jiko/

Included is mention of this interesting operation:
Jiko bought a bank before launching and puts all your money in treasuries. https://fortune.com/2020/10/29/jiko-cha ... k-fintech/
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