VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

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MotoTrojan
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by MotoTrojan »

index245 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:03 pm I've held international for a long time, but I wonder if a "total international" index is the best vehicle to do so. It provides diversification(*), but it seems that long term good returns are difficult to see given the diversity of regions and countries it encompasses. The regions that are doing well internationally (ie New Zealand) get overwhelmed by those that aren't or are stagnant long term (ie Japan) and a much larger market cap.

Is a multi-region or country approach better? Or a factor approach (such as those who use a value tile to their international investments)? I don't know the answer, but something has to make more money while keeping diversification. Developed Markets indexes peaked in the 1990's. Many of you were born then.

*The diversification angle is a little tough, too, given the high correlation between developed and US markets. If US markets go into a long term slump (as has happened), will international thrive? Nobody knows.
If you don't like Japan, I promise you won't like value tilted ex-US funds. IVAL (a deep-value ex-US fund) is >50% Japan! And I am holding it.
index245
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by index245 »

MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:05 pm
index245 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:03 pm I've held international for a long time, but I wonder if a "total international" index is the best vehicle to do so. It provides diversification(*), but it seems that long term good returns are difficult to see given the diversity of regions and countries it encompasses. The regions that are doing well internationally (ie New Zealand) get overwhelmed by those that aren't or are stagnant long term (ie Japan) and a much larger market cap.

Is a multi-region or country approach better? Or a factor approach (such as those who use a value tile to their international investments)? I don't know the answer, but something has to make more money while keeping diversification. Developed Markets indexes peaked in the 1990's. Many of you were born then.

*The diversification angle is a little tough, too, given the high correlation between developed and US markets. If US markets go into a long term slump (as has happened), will international thrive? Nobody knows.
If you don't like Japan, I promise you won't like value tilted ex-US funds. IVAL (a deep-value ex-US fund) is >50% Japan! And I am holding it.
Yes, I don't like or dislike, as I don't know the future. But Japan has been a large drag on international indexes the past 30 years or so. Will that be the case going forward? No idea. Emerging Markets went wild in the early 2000's lifting "total international," otherwise US outperformance has been pretty consistent. I've been moving toward a more one fund approach, so I guess I'm stuck with total international in my lifestrategy funds (at least the fund of funds makes it more difficult to follow!).
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by HawkeyePierce »

index245 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:03 pm I've held international for a long time, but I wonder if a "total international" index is the best vehicle to do so. It provides diversification(*), but it seems that long term good returns are difficult to see given the diversity of regions and countries it encompasses. The regions that are doing well internationally (ie New Zealand) get overwhelmed by those that aren't or are stagnant long term (ie Japan) and a much larger market cap.

Is a multi-region or country approach better? Or a factor approach (such as those who use a value tile to their international investments)? I don't know the answer, but something has to make more money while keeping diversification. Developed Markets indexes peaked in the 1990's. Many of you were born then.

*The diversification angle is a little tough, too, given the high correlation between developed and US markets. If US markets go into a long term slump (as has happened), will international thrive? Nobody knows.
I'm on board with this argument, which is why my ex-US holdings are ISCF (ex-US multifactor small cap), XSOE (emerging markets ex-state owned enterprises) and VWOB (emerging market govt bonds).
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by asif408 »

index245 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:11 pm Yes, I don't like or dislike, as I don't know the future. But Japan has been a large drag on international indexes the past 30 years or so.
Not exactly true. Since mid 2012, Japan has outperformed total international stock index: https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100. That is in line with Japanese valuations, which were dramatically higher than almost all other markets from 1990 until 2012 or so. Valuations in Japan are now much more reasonable and less than 1/3 of those in the US (https://indices.barclays/IM/21/en/indic ... c-cape.app), which hasn't been the case at any point in the last 40 years.
index245
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by index245 »

asif408 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:23 pm
index245 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:11 pm Yes, I don't like or dislike, as I don't know the future. But Japan has been a large drag on international indexes the past 30 years or so.
Not exactly true. Since mid 2012, Japan has outperformed total international stock index: https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100. That is in line with Japanese valuations, which were dramatically higher than almost all other markets from 1990 until 2012 or so. Valuations in Japan are now much more reasonable and less than 1/3 of those in the US (https://indices.barclays/IM/21/en/indic ... c-cape.app), which hasn't been the case at any point in the last 40 years.
Fair enough, I stand corrected on my statement for the time period 2012-present.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by asif408 »

index245 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:25 pm
asif408 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:23 pm
index245 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:11 pm Yes, I don't like or dislike, as I don't know the future. But Japan has been a large drag on international indexes the past 30 years or so.
Not exactly true. Since mid 2012, Japan has outperformed total international stock index: https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100. That is in line with Japanese valuations, which were dramatically higher than almost all other markets from 1990 until 2012 or so. Valuations in Japan are now much more reasonable and less than 1/3 of those in the US (https://indices.barclays/IM/21/en/indic ... c-cape.app), which hasn't been the case at any point in the last 40 years.
Fair enough, I stand corrected on my statement for the time period 2012-present.
Interestingly, during that time the lag has been primarily caused by the emerging markets and developed countries like Canada, Australia, and South Korea, which I'm not sure many are aware of.
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vineviz
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by vineviz »

abuss368 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:29 am That is one way of looking at it. Another way is the cumulative results over 35 years. Those results are not even close in terms of performance. US is much much higher than international which is much riskier.
A cumulative chart has the effect of doing what we know shouldn't be done, placing more emphasis on recent periods than on prior periods. In effect, it can easily serve as justification for performance chasing without requiring an explicit acknowledgement of doing so.

Moreover, a cumulative growth chart seriously obfuscates the impact on the class of investors who need arguably need diversification the most: retirees.

Imagine two people retire in August of 1976, each with a nest egg of $40,000. Both have learned of weird new Vanguard mutual fund called the Vanguard 500 Index, and investor A decides to put all $40k of their retirement money into this new-fangled fund. Investor B is also impressed with the Vanguard 500 but decides to diversify a bit: 50% in VFINX and the other 50% split evenly between Oppenheimer Global (OPPAX), Templeton Growth (TEPLX) and American Funds New Perspective (ANWPX). Both investors have the same retirement needs so each sets up a plan to withdraw $2,500 each year with an adjustment for inflation. Here's what happens:

Image

It's been a long retirement, but each has taken the same income since 1976. Investor A has a portfolio that is valued at $46,184 today. Investor B has a portfolio of $1,006,927*.

* So far I ignored the sales load that Investor B would almost certainly have paid to purchase shares of OPPAX, TEPLX, and ANWPX in 1976. Reducing the initial investment by 5.75%, to $37,700, would reduce the terminal value of the portfolio to $722,267. This is still about 15x as much money in 2020 as Investor A would have.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by abuss368 »

vineviz wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:07 pm
abuss368 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:29 am That is one way of looking at it. Another way is the cumulative results over 35 years. Those results are not even close in terms of performance. US is much much higher than international which is much riskier.
A cumulative chart has the effect of doing what we know shouldn't be done, placing more emphasis on recent periods than on prior periods. In effect, it can easily serve as justification for performance chasing without requiring an explicit acknowledgement of doing so.

Moreover, a cumulative growth chart seriously obfuscates the impact on the class of investors who need arguably need diversification the most: retirees.

Imagine two people retire in August of 1976, each with a nest egg of $40,000. Both have learned of weird new Vanguard mutual fund called the Vanguard 500 Index, and investor A decides to put all $40k of their retirement money into this new-fangled fund. Investor B is also impressed with the Vanguard 500 but decides to diversify a bit: 50% in VFINX and the other 50% split evenly between Oppenheimer Global (OPPAX), Templeton Growth (TEPLX) and American Funds New Perspective (ANWPX). Both investors have the same retirement needs so each sets up a plan to withdraw $2,500 each year with an adjustment for inflation. Here's what happens:

Image

It's been a long retirement, but each has taken the same income since 1976. Investor A has a portfolio that is valued at $46,184 today. Investor B has a portfolio of $1,006,927*.

* So far I ignored the sales load that Investor B would almost certainly have paid to purchase shares of OPPAX, TEPLX, and ANWPX in 1976. Reducing the initial investment by 5.75%, to $37,700, would reduce the terminal value of the portfolio to $722,267. This is still about 15x as much money in 2020 as Investor A would have.
That is actually scary reading that!
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greek-yogurt
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by greek-yogurt »

It almost feels like those who are holding international want to "justify" the reasons for holding it.

Look, guys... My PERSONAL sleep better at night and feel better about how my money is working is telling me to hold a VERY small amount of international and let the US markets do what they are going to do, risk and all. Let the panic selling happen and the robinhood goofball insanity happen and know that markets go up and they go down. I feel better about holding MUCH MUCH MUCH less International and being super heavy on USA BASED companies.

Also, I just noticed Vanguard sold 25K worth of my holding in the fund VSIAX, a fund THEY put me in and that I owned zero of before. They put 25k into it, it lost 20% and now they've sold it. So I ask - Are THEY now performance chasing?????????????
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by Seasonal »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:06 am It almost feels like those who are holding international want to "justify" the reasons for holding it.
And it almost feels like those who are selling or not holding international want to "justify" the reasons for selling or not holding it.
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greek-yogurt
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by greek-yogurt »

Seasonal wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:09 am
greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:06 am It almost feels like those who are holding international want to "justify" the reasons for holding it.
And it almost feels like those who are selling or not holding international want to "justify" the reasons for selling or not holding it.
You are correct. There is no other way to look at it.

If people love VXUS and love the ~3%, cool.

If people feel that you have to hold international, cool.

I am not comfortable having 50% of my ROTH (one of the main nest eggs I'm going to crack the yolk on) be in VXUS. No joke, I would rather have it in SPY and just ride the long 30 year wave ahead of me in SP500 companies growing over time.

I am glad I wrote this post and it's good to see the passion that people have. Me personally, I am not comfortable with the international markets and would rather be invested in USA.

Best of luck to all investors, thanks for the insight.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by abuss368 »

vineviz wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:07 pm
A cumulative chart has the effect of doing what we know shouldn't be done, placing more emphasis on recent periods than on prior periods. In effect, it can easily serve as justification for performance chasing without requiring an explicit acknowledgement of doing so.

Moreover, a cumulative growth chart seriously obfuscates the impact on the class of investors who need arguably need diversification the most: retirees.

Imagine two people retire in August of 1976, each with a nest egg of $40,000. Both have learned of weird new Vanguard mutual fund called the Vanguard 500 Index, and investor A decides to put all $40k of their retirement money into this new-fangled fund. Investor B is also impressed with the Vanguard 500 but decides to diversify a bit: 50% in VFINX and the other 50% split evenly between Oppenheimer Global (OPPAX), Templeton Growth (TEPLX) and American Funds New Perspective (ANWPX). Both investors have the same retirement needs so each sets up a plan to withdraw $2,500 each year with an adjustment for inflation. Here's what happens:

Image

It's been a long retirement, but each has taken the same income since 1976. Investor A has a portfolio that is valued at $46,184 today. Investor B has a portfolio of $1,006,927*.

* So far I ignored the sales load that Investor B would almost certainly have paid to purchase shares of OPPAX, TEPLX, and ANWPX in 1976. Reducing the initial investment by 5.75%, to $37,700, would reduce the terminal value of the portfolio to $722,267. This is still about 15x as much money in 2020 as Investor A would have.
In reviewing the results from Portfolio Visualizer the result is completely different:

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... sisResults

Assumptions
Retire - 1976
Portfolio - $40,000
Annual withdrawal - $2,500

Results

Portfolio #1
Total Stock - 100%
Result - $392,000 - CAPR - 6.80% - StDev - 15.36

Portfolio #2
Total Stock - 60%
Total International Stock - 40%
Result - $273,000 - CAPR - 5.70% - StDev - 15.11

Ouch! Portfolio #2 diversified because the advisor said so. An internet website said so. The literature said so. Now they are much older and may be considering cutting expenses and perhaps getting a part time job.

I am going to continue to follow the wise and timeless advice of Jack Bogle. International is simply not making the grade.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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greek-yogurt
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by greek-yogurt »

abuss368 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:50 am
vineviz wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:07 pm
A cumulative chart has the effect of doing what we know shouldn't be done, placing more emphasis on recent periods than on prior periods. In effect, it can easily serve as justification for performance chasing without requiring an explicit acknowledgement of doing so.

Moreover, a cumulative growth chart seriously obfuscates the impact on the class of investors who need arguably need diversification the most: retirees.

Imagine two people retire in August of 1976, each with a nest egg of $40,000. Both have learned of weird new Vanguard mutual fund called the Vanguard 500 Index, and investor A decides to put all $40k of their retirement money into this new-fangled fund. Investor B is also impressed with the Vanguard 500 but decides to diversify a bit: 50% in VFINX and the other 50% split evenly between Oppenheimer Global (OPPAX), Templeton Growth (TEPLX) and American Funds New Perspective (ANWPX). Both investors have the same retirement needs so each sets up a plan to withdraw $2,500 each year with an adjustment for inflation. Here's what happens:

Image

It's been a long retirement, but each has taken the same income since 1976. Investor A has a portfolio that is valued at $46,184 today. Investor B has a portfolio of $1,006,927*.

* So far I ignored the sales load that Investor B would almost certainly have paid to purchase shares of OPPAX, TEPLX, and ANWPX in 1976. Reducing the initial investment by 5.75%, to $37,700, would reduce the terminal value of the portfolio to $722,267. This is still about 15x as much money in 2020 as Investor A would have.
In reviewing the results from Portfolio Visualizer the result is completely different:

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... sisResults

Assumptions
Retire - 1976
Portfolio - $40,000
Annual withdrawal - $2,500

Results

Portfolio #1
Total Stock - 100%
Result - $392,000 - CAPR - 6.80% - StDev - 15.36

Portfolio #2
Total Stock - 60%
Total International Stock - 40%
Result - $273,000 - CAPR - 5.70% - StDev - 15.11

Ouch! Portfolio #2 diversified because the advisor said so. An internet website said so. The literature said so. Now they are much older and may be considering cutting expenses and perhaps getting a part time job.

I am going to continue to follow the wise and timeless advice of Jack Bogle. International is simply not making the grade.
Thanks for that. I wish I would have listened to my gut a few months ago and not let Vanguard manage my portfolio. They took me from 93% USA and 7% ex-us to 60% USA and 40% ex-US.

On my own, before letting them radically modify my holdings, my 10 year performance is 13.6%

YTD, my returns on the Vanguard managed holdings are now N E G A T I V E. Thank god I have a self managed 401K that did 11% YTD.

I just had a long phone call with with my father who is happily retired and invested for 40 years.

He held ZERO international and he said Vanguard would always tell him he needs international, and every time he'd use the site (about every 3 months) he said he would always see the yellow warning flags about no international. He did not heed any of that averaged 11% returns. He said he always questioned why they pushed so hard on it, and this goes back 20 years he said! My father was born in FRANCE, by the way so this is not some USA BIAS.

I'm done with ex-US. Thanks again for the feedback, all. Best of luck to us all and be well and safe out there.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by vineviz »

abuss368 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:50 am
In reviewing the results from Portfolio Visualizer the result is completely different:

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... sisResults
As you can see, the screenshot I provided above is from Portfolio Visualizer

Your link doesn't lead to the simulation parameters you ran, but I suspect your tests failed to replicate mine because you were using "Backtest Portfolio Asset Class Allocation" and Portfolio Visualizer doesn't contain any asset class returns for international stocks before 1986. I suggest you double check your dates to ensure that PV didn't default to a start date of Jan 1986.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by abuss368 »

vineviz wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:33 pm
abuss368 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:50 am
In reviewing the results from Portfolio Visualizer the result is completely different:

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... sisResults
As you can see, the screenshot I provided above is from Portfolio Visualizer

Your link doesn't lead to the simulation parameters you ran, but I suspect your tests failed to replicate mine because you were using "Backtest Portfolio Asset Class Allocation" and Portfolio Visualizer doesn't contain any asset class returns for international stocks before 1986. I suggest you double check your dates to ensure that PV didn't default to a start date of Jan 1986.
It is 1986! Nonetheless, it appears that unless we pick a very specific time frame to support a debate on the inclusion of international such as the 1970s or the 2000s, that the debate for including international is much weaker.

It is unfortunate international, for the higher risks involved (currency, taxes, laws, shareholder rights, securities regulators) does not provide the risk premium and higher return compared to US over a consistent time period.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
asif408
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by asif408 »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:10 pm I'm done with ex-US. Thanks again for the feedback, all. Best of luck to us all and be well and safe out there.
Glad you came to a decision. Feel free to come back in a couple of years and let us know how things turned out.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by Northern Flicker »

greek-yoghurt wrote: On paper only of course, VIGAX has absolutely CRUSHED VXUS.
It will always be the case that you can look back with perfect hindsight and see which segment ovetperformed in the recent past. Now all you need is a time-travel machine and you have a can't miss strategy.

The point of investing in index funds is that there is no evidence that anyone can predict which segments of the market will overperform in the future. And people who guessed right no doubt are patting themselves on the back for their investment smarts.

Sure, if we look back to a period when US equity beat non-US equity and when growth beat value we can find these disparities.The point of a market index fund is that you will avoid the far greater number of funds that underperformed.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by Northern Flicker »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:06 am It almost feels like those who are holding international want to "justify" the reasons for holding it.

Look, guys... My PERSONAL sleep better at night and feel better about how my money is working is telling me to hold a VERY small amount of international and let the US markets do what they are going to do, risk and all. Let the panic selling happen and the robinhood goofball insanity happen and know that markets go up and they go down. I feel better about holding MUCH MUCH MUCH less International and being super heavy on USA BASED companies.

Also, I just noticed Vanguard sold 25K worth of my holding in the fund VSIAX, a fund THEY put me in and that I owned zero of before. They put 25k into it, it lost 20% and now they've sold it. So I ask - Are THEY now performance chasing?????????????
That depends on what they did with the proceeds. Did they buy a different small-cap value fund? If so, they have have just been harvesting a tax loss for you.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by vineviz »

abuss368 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:41 pm It is 1986! Nonetheless, it appears that unless we pick a very specific time frame to support a debate on the inclusion of international such as the 1970s or the 2000s, that the debate for including international is much weaker.
You're moving the goal posts a bit here. The question I was addressing with the post that you claimed to refute was "does it matter if investors are globally diversified", and the example I offered clearly shows that it DOES matter.

As I've said before, the reason that diversification is such a crucial concept is that it is the best way we have for narrowing the range of possible outcomes. It tends to make the worst outcomes less bad. And especially for investors who are retired, this is a very valuable thing.

Over the past six decades, including international stocks improved the sustainable withdrawal rate of retirement portfolios over 75% of the time. And if you limit the analysis to the bottom half of outcomes, global diversification improved retirement income 100% of the time.

Below are two different 30 year periods in which I compare the returns of international equities vs US equities. I don't know whether the NEXT 30 years will most resemble the first one or the second one. But if I'm globally diversified, I don't have to care because I'm certain to avoid taking the full force of the worst outcome.

Image

Image
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by muffins14 »

abuss368 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:41 pm
It is 1986! Nonetheless, it appears that unless we pick a very specific time frame to support a debate on the inclusion of international such as the 1970s or the 2000s, that the debate for including international is much weaker.

It is unfortunate international, for the higher risks involved (currency, taxes, laws, shareholder rights, securities regulators) does not provide the risk premium and higher return compared to US over a consistent time period.
I really don't understand the arguments that go like "if you ignore the 20 years of good performance, then the performance is not good"

If we ignore the very specific timeframe of 2008-today and the late 1990s, the debate for excluding international is much weaker
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by greek-yogurt »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:23 pm That depends on what they did with the proceeds. Did they buy a different small-cap value fund? If so, they have have just been harvesting a tax loss for you.
Great question, so I did some mouse clicking in the Vanguard portal and found out. They sold all of the VSIAX and bought VXF. Prior to doing so, unrealized loss in that holding was pretty substantial.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by Winthorpe »

My household has about a 25% international exposure. International has been a real stinker over the past decade or so. Like others, I have considered tilting more toward US in recent years.

BUT, I do know that Vineviz is correct above. We don' know the future, and I don't want the worst of outcomes. I'm happy with being in the middle of outcomes.

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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by 1789 »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:06 am It almost feels like those who are holding international want to "justify" the reasons for holding it.

Look, guys... My PERSONAL sleep better at night and feel better about how my money is working is telling me to hold a VERY small amount of international and let the US markets do what they are going to do, risk and all. Let the panic selling happen and the robinhood goofball insanity happen and know that markets go up and they go down. I feel better about holding MUCH MUCH MUCH less International and being super heavy on USA BASED companies.

Also, I just noticed Vanguard sold 25K worth of my holding in the fund VSIAX, a fund THEY put me in and that I owned zero of before. They put 25k into it, it lost 20% and now they've sold it. So I ask - Are THEY now performance chasing?????????????
Honestly i think you can manage your own portfolio. I would just cut the cord with Vanguard advisor and implement a 2 fund portfolio, aka: US stocks and US bonds. This is not home bias and i am not an American. You will sleep better by controlling your account in the way you want. This is my understanding from everything you wrote.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by asif408 »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:54 pm
abuss368 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:41 pm
It is 1986! Nonetheless, it appears that unless we pick a very specific time frame to support a debate on the inclusion of international such as the 1970s or the 2000s, that the debate for including international is much weaker.

It is unfortunate international, for the higher risks involved (currency, taxes, laws, shareholder rights, securities regulators) does not provide the risk premium and higher return compared to US over a consistent time period.
I really don't understand the arguments that go like "if you ignore the 20 years of good performance, then the performance is not good"

If we ignore the very specific timeframe of 2008-today and the late 1990s, the debate for excluding international is much weaker
Unlike abus, I prefer to exclude the recent 13 year period of US outperformance as an anomaly and look at the 1970-2007 timeframe, which is longer than abuss's timeframe. In that timeframe, the debate for including US stocks is much weaker; it looks like any addition of US stock to a non-US stock portfolio hurt returns, according to our Boglehead wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/File:US ... erging.png.

Sure US stocks did really well in the late 1990s, but they underperformed in the 1970s, 1980s, & 2000s. Only one of four decades of outperformance (a .250 average) is unacceptable for an investment. Even the lowly 1962 Mets had a better win percentage.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by greek-yogurt »

Those charts showing 1962 to 1990 vs the charts showing 1990 to 2020 are pretty striking.

I would venture to say that 2020 to the rest of my lifetime will have USA completely dominating International.

Do you not think the Internet in ~1990 forever changed the graph?
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by asif408 »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:15 pm I would venture to say that 2020 to the rest of my lifetime will have USA completely dominating International.
If you are dumping international stocks, no need for wishy-washy, namby-pamby phrases like "I would venture to say". Replace that with "without a shadow of a doubt".
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by donaldfair71 »

asif408 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:27 pm
greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:15 pm I would venture to say that 2020 to the rest of my lifetime will have USA completely dominating International.
If you are dumping international stocks, no need for wishy-washy, namby-pamby phrases like "I would venture to say". Replace that with "without a shadow of a doubt".
Exactly. That’s really what it takes to exclude such a large chunk of countries, global companies, etc.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by greek-yogurt »

donaldfair71 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:48 pm
asif408 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:27 pm
greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:15 pm I would venture to say that 2020 to the rest of my lifetime will have USA completely dominating International.
If you are dumping international stocks, no need for wishy-washy, namby-pamby phrases like "I would venture to say". Replace that with "without a shadow of a doubt".
Exactly. That’s really what it takes to exclude such a large chunk of countries, global companies, etc.
Sure - Let me fix.

USA WILL OUTPERFORM FOREIGN FROM 2020 AND FORWARD. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. My portfolio will be 5% VWILX (which is 14.8% USA) and the rest will be domestic. I am waiting for Vanguard to call me back so I can exit the managed plan and go back to managing my own holdings.

If this forum, VXUS and VIGAX still exist in 30 years, please pull up a comparison chart and let's how right I am.

Bless you.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by visualguy »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:15 pm I would venture to say that 2020 to the rest of my lifetime will have USA completely dominating International.
You're pretty safe. Europe and Japan (most of ex-US) don't have much promise of becoming the centers of corporate growth and entrepreneurship, and neither does most of the rest of ex-US. China is a different story, but very risky, so hard to commit to a large-enough percentage of the portfolio to China to make a significant difference.

Even if someone does become strong, they are diluted if your investment is ex-US indexing. Also, the US administration would be targeting them with various economic measures as in the case of Japan in the 80s, and China today. You have to bet against the US being successful in undermining rising economic powers when the US has very powerful economic tools (sanctions, control of international payment system, entity lists, export controls, ability to force extradition of foreign business leaders, etc.) I wouldn't make the bet that the US will lose these abilities or stop using them within my lifetime - the world order won't be changing that fast.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by abuss368 »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:06 pm
donaldfair71 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:48 pm
asif408 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:27 pm
greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:15 pm I would venture to say that 2020 to the rest of my lifetime will have USA completely dominating International.
If you are dumping international stocks, no need for wishy-washy, namby-pamby phrases like "I would venture to say". Replace that with "without a shadow of a doubt".
Exactly. That’s really what it takes to exclude such a large chunk of countries, global companies, etc.
Sure - Let me fix.

USA WILL OUTPERFORM FOREIGN FROM 2020 AND FORWARD. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. My portfolio will be 5% VWILX (which is 14.8% USA) and the rest will be domestic. I am waiting for Vanguard to call me back so I can exit the managed plan and go back to managing my own holdings.

If this forum, VXUS and VIGAX still exist in 30 years, please pull up a comparison chart and let's how right I am.

Bless you.
You have an excellent strategy in investing in the Jack Bogle’s and Warren Buffett Two Fund Portfolio of Total Stock (or S&P 500) and Total Bond.

We must continue to “press on regardless” as Me. Bogle’s would say and help other investors.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by donaldfair71 »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:06 pm
donaldfair71 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:48 pm
asif408 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:27 pm
greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:15 pm I would venture to say that 2020 to the rest of my lifetime will have USA completely dominating International.
If you are dumping international stocks, no need for wishy-washy, namby-pamby phrases like "I would venture to say". Replace that with "without a shadow of a doubt".
Exactly. That’s really what it takes to exclude such a large chunk of countries, global companies, etc.
Sure - Let me fix.

USA WILL OUTPERFORM FOREIGN FROM 2020 AND FORWARD. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. My portfolio will be 5% VWILX (which is 14.8% USA) and the rest will be domestic. I am waiting for Vanguard to call me back so I can exit the managed plan and go back to managing my own holdings.

If this forum, VXUS and VIGAX still exist in 30 years, please pull up a comparison chart and let's how right I am.

Bless you.
30 years is noise. :twisted:
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by greek-yogurt »

donaldfair71 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:24 pm 30 years is noise. :twisted:
Hahah. This did make me laugh.

Person #1: But International outperformed in 1990.

Person #2: But you have to look at international over a 30 year period

Person #3: But if you were to look at 90 years of international compared to USA...

Person #4: But if you look at International going back to 1888 when Jack The Ripper ran a lemonade state in London...

I'm OUT. ex-US does not fit me, personally... and for that... I am OUT.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by vineviz »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:15 pm
Do you not think the Internet in ~1990 forever changed the graph?
Obviously, because only Americans know how to use the internet. It’ll be a permanent source of competitive advantage for the US: just like auto manufacturing, steel making, photographic film, etc
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by visualguy »

Right, but where will the next big thing be developed and commercialized, and thus where will the next batch of great companies emerge?

Even when it's non-US-born people who do it, they do it in the US. Elon Musk didn't start Tesla in South Africa, the French founders of Snowflake didn't start it in France, Sergey Brin didn't start Google in Russia, Peter Thiel didn't start PayPal in Germany, Jensen Huang didn't start Nvidia in Taiwan, etc. Most of silicon valley is foreign-born, and the picture is similar in other US science and technology R&D in academia and industry.

Naturally, most talent actually originates outside the US, but the US is where they tend to do their stuff and be successful, not their native countries. That's the key, not Internet or some other specific thing. It's being able to create the next thing and commercialize it.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by cowdogman »

I started a thread on dumping VXUS yesterday and got similar comments.

Some points:

1. Disliking VXUS doesn't mean disliking international investing.

2. Disliking VXUS doesn't mean disliking diversification.

3. Diversification doesn't mean you have to diversify to the broadest extent possible.

4. Rethinking an investment decision doesn't mean you're market timing or performance chasing.

5. Questioning advice from Vanguard doesn't mean you are unworthy to be a Boglehead.

The OP's original post didn't come out against international investing or diversification, but somehow he ended up taking that position in response to various comments in this thread. If Vanguard had put him into VWIGX earlier this year, he would be happy with international.

OP: don't give up on international or diversification just because of VXUS.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by warner25 »

vineviz wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:33 pm ...Below are two different 30 year periods in which I compare the returns of international equities vs US equities...
I'm replying mainly to bookmark this thread, and especially this post with the two charts, as one of the best I've seen about US vs. International since I started reading this forum in 2009. Great job by vineviz!
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:11 pm You're pretty safe. Europe and Japan (most of ex-US) don't have much promise of becoming the centers of corporate growth and entrepreneurship, and neither does most of the rest of ex-US... You have to bet against the US being successful in undermining rising economic powers when the US has very powerful economic tools...
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:08 pm Naturally, most talent actually originates outside the US, but the US is where they tend to do their stuff and be successful, not their native countries.
I think these quotes deserve a reminder about EMH. Everybody else already knows this stuff, so why wouldn't this already be priced in, especially when the PE ratio of the US stock market is nearly double that of International markets? US companies can't just do better than International companies going forward, they have to beat expectations which seem to be rather high.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by alexp »

These international or no international threads are popping up every couple of months now. This means that lot of investors have started questioning their strategy. I was a "60 US/40 International" investor 10 years back when I started but took the decision of lowering my Intl allocation between 10-20% across all my accounts few years back. This was after I read John Bogle's advice.

This year, I have made a decision to completely get out of Intl "index" funds in all my non-401K accounts and stick to 20% Intl allocation just in my 401K. Here are the reasons for adopting this strategy:
-> More global: The world is more global and connected now than 30 years back. Any big financial, political or health calamity affects stocks in all countries. For example, Covid didn't affect just US or China stocks in 3/20 - all of the International funds also went down in sync. When the Brexit was announced, the entire market including US stocks felt the volatility.
-> US domination: US economy and companies dominate the world currently. A shift somewhere else would take decades in my opinion. But chances are very less that it can happen during my investment horizon ( which is ~20yrs).
-> Oversight: Compared to US, the corporations in emerging countries lack stringent controls or oversight to protect the stockholders. There are few Enrons here but the frequency of such mismanagement/corruption is more outside. I have followed some Megacorps in Emerging countries which are run by the goal of benefiting owners rather than the investors by money siphoning, corruption, etc. Nepotism is rampant where the next CEO/President is often picked from the family rather than based on merit.

In my 401K, I maintain a 20% international allocation but use a actively managed fund (FDIVX) instead of an Index fund. Idea being that a seasoned manager would be able to make better decisions on which country or stocks to invest in based on the factors above instead of just going based the market caps. I know that it is counter intuitive strategy to boglehead philosophy as I am mostly in Index funds in domestic allocation. But this is working well as the investment returns from FDIVX aren't as bad as VXUS.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by absolute zero »

cowdogman wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:29 pm 5. Questioning advice from Vanguard doesn't mean you are unworthy to be a Boglehead.
To be fair, it’s not just Vanguard that advocates international diversification. It’s virtually the entire investment industry, including the likes of BlackRock, State Street, and Fidelity. This is, most definitely, not just a Vanguard thing.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by Northern Flicker »

abuss368 wrote: It is 1986! Nonetheless, it appears that unless we pick a very specific time frame to support a debate on the inclusion of international such as the 1970s or the 2000s, that the debate for including international is much weaker.
Unless you pick the complementary timeframes, the rationale for an all-US portfolio is weaker.

The industry sector diversification of the US market has lessened over time. This has strengthened the diversification benefit of holding non-US equity. In 2006, people consistently were predicting $200/barrel oil, a weak dollar, and underperformance of US equities for years to come. We now know how that worked out. They failed to foresee the macroeconomic impact of hydraulic fracking. There will always be unforeseen future events (Covid-19 being an obvious example), or unforeseen impact of known issues lurking in the future.

I have always considered Vanguard's 40% of equities in non-US equities to be too high for my needs. But it would be foolhardy to pay 30bp/yr to have Vanguard manage assets and complain about their asset allocation. They are transparent about this, and one knows going in that is what they will recommend.

I am convinced that these threads go in circles because the majority of participants believe they are trying to maximize return instead of trying to minimize or reduce risk. In truth, most of the time, one or the other will outperform, and if you hold both, you have to accept that one or the other will underperform in any given time period.

I hold non-US equities at 25% of equities. My goal is to diversify inflation risk. Having non-US equities outperform is not a good outcome at this allocation, so this is a bet on US outperformance. The purpose of holding 25% non-US equities is so that the equity portfolio has a good chance of achieving a positive real (inflation-adjusted) return if we have robust inflation in the future. But when the US outperforms, I appreciate that betting on the US market outperforming has paid off.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by visualguy »

warner25 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:25 pm
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:11 pm You're pretty safe. Europe and Japan (most of ex-US) don't have much promise of becoming the centers of corporate growth and entrepreneurship, and neither does most of the rest of ex-US... You have to bet against the US being successful in undermining rising economic powers when the US has very powerful economic tools...
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:08 pm Naturally, most talent actually originates outside the US, but the US is where they tend to do their stuff and be successful, not their native countries.
I think these quotes deserve a reminder about EMH. Everybody else already knows this stuff, so why wouldn't this already be priced in, especially when the PE ratio of the US stock market is nearly double that of International markets? US companies can't just do better than International companies going forward, they have to beat expectations which seem to be rather high.
I don't think the value of future major companies which aren't there yet can be fully priced into the stock prices of existing companies. We see new very successful companies in the US regularly. When was the last time a major new public company popped up in, say, Europe or Japan?
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by visualguy »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:04 pm I hold non-US equities at 25% of equities. My goal is to diversify inflation risk. Having non-US equities outperform is not a good outcome at this allocation, so this is a bet on US outperformance. The purpose of holding 25% non-US equities is so that the equity portfolio has a good chance of achieving a positive real (inflation-adjusted) return if we have robust inflation in the future. But when the US outperforms, I appreciate that betting on the US market outperforming has paid off.
Not sure how likely ex-US indexing is to protect you from inflation in general, and in particular when you take into account that you expect US to outperform as you said.

I'm also concerned about inflation, but I hold direct real estate to diversify, having inflation as well as other risks in mind.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by warner25 »

visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:08 pm I don't think the value of future major companies which aren't there yet can be fully priced into the stock prices of existing companies. We see new very successful companies in the US regularly. When was the last time a major new public company popped up in, say, Europe or Japan?
Fair enough; that's an interesting argument that I've never seen before.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by 7eight9 »

visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:08 pm
warner25 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:25 pm
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:11 pm You're pretty safe. Europe and Japan (most of ex-US) don't have much promise of becoming the centers of corporate growth and entrepreneurship, and neither does most of the rest of ex-US... You have to bet against the US being successful in undermining rising economic powers when the US has very powerful economic tools...
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:08 pm Naturally, most talent actually originates outside the US, but the US is where they tend to do their stuff and be successful, not their native countries.
I think these quotes deserve a reminder about EMH. Everybody else already knows this stuff, so why wouldn't this already be priced in, especially when the PE ratio of the US stock market is nearly double that of International markets? US companies can't just do better than International companies going forward, they have to beat expectations which seem to be rather high.
I don't think the value of future major companies which aren't there yet can be fully priced into the stock prices of existing companies. We see new very successful companies in the US regularly. When was the last time a major new public company popped up in, say, Europe or Japan?
Looks like the biggest IPOs don't happen in America ...

Jack Ma’s Ant Group lifts IPO funding target to $35 billion
Ant’s simultaneous listing in Hong Kong and Shanghai may mark the biggest IPO ever, topping Saudi Aramco’s record $29 billion sale. Ant could exceed Bank of America Corp.’s market capitalization, and be more than twice the size of Citigroup Inc. Among U.S. banks, only JPMorgan Chase & Co. is bigger at $300 billion.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/ ... ng-target/
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by visualguy »

7eight9 wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:17 am
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:08 pm
warner25 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:25 pm
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:11 pm You're pretty safe. Europe and Japan (most of ex-US) don't have much promise of becoming the centers of corporate growth and entrepreneurship, and neither does most of the rest of ex-US... You have to bet against the US being successful in undermining rising economic powers when the US has very powerful economic tools...
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:08 pm Naturally, most talent actually originates outside the US, but the US is where they tend to do their stuff and be successful, not their native countries.
I think these quotes deserve a reminder about EMH. Everybody else already knows this stuff, so why wouldn't this already be priced in, especially when the PE ratio of the US stock market is nearly double that of International markets? US companies can't just do better than International companies going forward, they have to beat expectations which seem to be rather high.
I don't think the value of future major companies which aren't there yet can be fully priced into the stock prices of existing companies. We see new very successful companies in the US regularly. When was the last time a major new public company popped up in, say, Europe or Japan?
Looks like the biggest IPOs don't happen in America ...

Jack Ma’s Ant Group lifts IPO funding target to $35 billion
Ant’s simultaneous listing in Hong Kong and Shanghai may mark the biggest IPO ever, topping Saudi Aramco’s record $29 billion sale. Ant could exceed Bank of America Corp.’s market capitalization, and be more than twice the size of Citigroup Inc. Among U.S. banks, only JPMorgan Chase & Co. is bigger at $300 billion.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/ ... ng-target/
That's China, not Europe or Japan. For those who are willing to accept the various risks and problematic aspects of Chinese stocks, I think a case could be made to have some stake there. The issue is what percentage of your stock portfolio you would feel comfortable-enough to invest in the various types of Chinese shares and stock markets. 5%? Maybe at most 10%? Not worth the complexity to me - it just can't make enough of a difference at those percentages.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by abuss368 »

visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:08 pm
warner25 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:25 pm
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:11 pm You're pretty safe. Europe and Japan (most of ex-US) don't have much promise of becoming the centers of corporate growth and entrepreneurship, and neither does most of the rest of ex-US... You have to bet against the US being successful in undermining rising economic powers when the US has very powerful economic tools...
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:08 pm Naturally, most talent actually originates outside the US, but the US is where they tend to do their stuff and be successful, not their native countries.
I think these quotes deserve a reminder about EMH. Everybody else already knows this stuff, so why wouldn't this already be priced in, especially when the PE ratio of the US stock market is nearly double that of International markets? US companies can't just do better than International companies going forward, they have to beat expectations which seem to be rather high.
I don't think the value of future major companies which aren't there yet can be fully priced into the stock prices of existing companies. We see new very successful companies in the US regularly. When was the last time a major new public company popped up in, say, Europe or Japan?
That is exactly what I was thinking of! I am trying to think of a company in Europe or Asia and can’t right now.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by Seasonal »

abuss368 wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:39 am
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:08 pm
warner25 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:25 pm
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:11 pm You're pretty safe. Europe and Japan (most of ex-US) don't have much promise of becoming the centers of corporate growth and entrepreneurship, and neither does most of the rest of ex-US... You have to bet against the US being successful in undermining rising economic powers when the US has very powerful economic tools...
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:08 pm Naturally, most talent actually originates outside the US, but the US is where they tend to do their stuff and be successful, not their native countries.
I think these quotes deserve a reminder about EMH. Everybody else already knows this stuff, so why wouldn't this already be priced in, especially when the PE ratio of the US stock market is nearly double that of International markets? US companies can't just do better than International companies going forward, they have to beat expectations which seem to be rather high.
I don't think the value of future major companies which aren't there yet can be fully priced into the stock prices of existing companies. We see new very successful companies in the US regularly. When was the last time a major new public company popped up in, say, Europe or Japan?
That is exactly what I was thinking of! I am trying to think of a company in Europe or Asia and can’t right now.
https://ipohub.io/listings

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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by petulant »

abuss368 wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:39 am
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:08 pm
warner25 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:25 pm
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:11 pm You're pretty safe. Europe and Japan (most of ex-US) don't have much promise of becoming the centers of corporate growth and entrepreneurship, and neither does most of the rest of ex-US... You have to bet against the US being successful in undermining rising economic powers when the US has very powerful economic tools...
visualguy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:08 pm Naturally, most talent actually originates outside the US, but the US is where they tend to do their stuff and be successful, not their native countries.
I think these quotes deserve a reminder about EMH. Everybody else already knows this stuff, so why wouldn't this already be priced in, especially when the PE ratio of the US stock market is nearly double that of International markets? US companies can't just do better than International companies going forward, they have to beat expectations which seem to be rather high.
I don't think the value of future major companies which aren't there yet can be fully priced into the stock prices of existing companies. We see new very successful companies in the US regularly. When was the last time a major new public company popped up in, say, Europe or Japan?
That is exactly what I was thinking of! I am trying to think of a company in Europe or Asia and can’t right now.
Spotify comes to mind right off the bat.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by Robot Monster »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:06 pm USA WILL OUTPERFORM FOREIGN FROM 2020 AND FORWARD. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Will simply remark, this appears to run contrary to a "nobody know nothing" philosophy.
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by snailderby »

greek-yogurt wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:06 pm USA WILL OUTPERFORM FOREIGN FROM 2020 AND FORWARD. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Well, if you can predict the future with complete certainty, I suppose your decision is a no-brainer, right?
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Re: VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]

Post by vineviz »

7eight9 wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:17 am Looks like the biggest IPOs don't happen in America ...
Nor do the most IPOs happen in America: for the first half of 2020, 65% of IPO proceeds and 80% of IPO listings in 2020 have occurred OUTSIDE of America. link
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