Vanguard is worrying me

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nalor511
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by nalor511 »

When you get a reinvested dividend, don't you usually get the price on the 'reinvest' date, and do those prices finally 'settle' on the same time/date as manual purchases? Or perhaps it's one of those issues where the numbers will match up fine once all systems update/settle? Just thinking out loud.
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CoastalWinds
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

nalor511 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:01 pm When you get a reinvested dividend, don't you usually get the price on the 'reinvest' date, and do those prices finally 'settle' on the same time/date as manual purchases? Or perhaps it's one of those issues where the numbers will match up fine once all systems update/settle? Just thinking out loud.
My transactions were on Nov 15. This was nowhere near a dividend date.
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puc_ytpme
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by puc_ytpme »

sycamore wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:25 pm
puc_ytpme wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:03 pm OP,

No user error, I noticed the same thing for Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral(VTIAX)

Bought on the day dividends were distributed Two separate lots(12-20-19)

One shows the actual closing NAV @ $29.69 & the other @ $29.83

I will check on this in the a.m.
puc_ytpme, thank you in advance for following up on this; there's obvious interest here on how it turns out.

If don't mind, where specifically did you notice the discrepancy? Was it on the "transactions" page? On the official trade confirmations? On the "closed orders" page? On the monthly statement? Just curious. I imagine having that info might be helpful to others here so they can see if the problem happened in the same way. Also helpful to VG (yeah they should be able to figure it out but as a software developer I found it very helpful to know the symptoms as the user experienced it).
Do not mind at all. In a quick run through... Confirmation page, transaction history & monthly statement all align at the closing NAV on 12-20-19 @ 29.69

Yet, going to ‘holdings’, then ‘cost basis’ & selecting ‘unrealized gains/losses’ scrolling down to Vanguard total Int under(SpecID) I click on ‘Lot Details’.


12-20-19 shows two separate NAV’s as mentioned above

Here in lies the error, my error. I did an exchange in an attempt to loss harvest on 12-31

From one of the two separate lots for 12-20-19. There were losses in both lots. Somehow, I managed to create a small wash sale? So the shares were adjusted based off this.

Not my intention to fan any flames
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machinepremium213
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by machinepremium213 »

I see a similar discrepancy in at least one case in my own cost basis: Two purchases of VTSAX on the same day in the same account, one with a cost basis per share one cent less than the other.

It looks to me like in my case, rounding is to blame, but that there is no error. The cost basis history has the total purchase price for each order correct. And the number of shares purchased is a correct rounded result for the NAV of VTSAX on that day. But in the case of the much smaller order of the two, if you divide the total purchase price for the smaller order by the (rounded) number of shares purchased, the result rounds to a number one cent less than the per share NAV that day.

In other words, Vanguard appears to be rounding twice: Once in figuring out how many shares I got for my order, and then again in figuring out the cost basis. That strikes me as a correct way of handling it, even though it produces the odd result of having two purchases of the same fund for different prices on the same day, since in fact I did pay the total price for the number of shares that I received.

So I think this is a result of rounding, and not an error. I can't of course say if the same is true for OP.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by RickBoglehead »

Here's my take on what's going on.

If you want to see the detail of a purchase, you go to the Activity tab. It shows the actual number of shares (to 3 digits), and the cost per share (in dollars and sense), of your transaction(s). I'd be very surprised if the OP bought mutual fund shares, from Vanguard, on a specific date, and has two different cost per share values. In short, I don't believe it.

If one then goes to the Holdings tab, and clicks on Cost Basis, Unrealized gains/losses, and clicks on Lot details under the holding, the rounded quantity (3 digits) and the cost per share (dollars and cents) sometimes will NOT equal the total cost because of rounding. You still own the same number of shares, to 3 digits, and the same cost per share (dollars and cents). But, in the math, there is rounding. Sometimes it will be more, sometimes it will be less. And it will always be insignificant.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by RickBoglehead »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:00 pm To previous poster:

1. Same account, same day, same fund. Two separate purchase transactions of the same fund.
2. On the Cost Basis tab.
3. Total dollar amount adds correctly.
4. Calculated NAV does not equal total
Cost basis divided by total shares. Neither share amount ends in .000. The shares calculated from the incorrect NAV were ... incorrect. Not a rounding error either.
It's irrelevant information. When you sell, all that matters is #3, the total cost. The actual number of shares you own is not in the cost basis tab. And the calculated NAV on that screen is also irrelevant. You sell X shares, you have specific cost for those shares, and those shares total to an exact dollar amount.
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CoastalWinds
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:56 pm Here's my take on what's going on.

If you want to see the detail of a purchase, you go to the Activity tab. It shows the actual number of shares (to 3 digits), and the cost per share (in dollars and sense), of your transaction(s). I'd be very surprised if the OP bought mutual fund shares, from Vanguard, on a specific date, and has two different cost per share values. In short, I don't believe it.

If one then goes to the Holdings tab, and clicks on Cost Basis, Unrealized gains/losses, and clicks on Lot details under the holding, the rounded quantity (3 digits) and the cost per share (dollars and cents) sometimes will NOT equal the total cost because of rounding. You still own the same number of shares, to 3 digits, and the same cost per share (dollars and cents). But, in the math, there is rounding. Sometimes it will be more, sometimes it will be less. And it will always be insignificant.
I’m not really interested in whether you believe it. The reality here differs from your belief. It is shown erroneously on the ‘activity’ tab too. And no, there are no wash sale explanations.
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CoastalWinds
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:59 pm
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:00 pm To previous poster:

1. Same account, same day, same fund. Two separate purchase transactions of the same fund.
2. On the Cost Basis tab.
3. Total dollar amount adds correctly.
4. Calculated NAV does not equal total
Cost basis divided by total shares. Neither share amount ends in .000. The shares calculated from the incorrect NAV were ... incorrect. Not a rounding error either.
It's irrelevant information. When you sell, all that matters is #3, the total cost. The actual number of shares you own is not in the cost basis tab. This is not true. And the calculated NAV on that screen is also irrelevant. You sell X shares, you have specific cost for those shares, and those shares total to an exact dollar amount.
Except for the fact I should own “Y” shares but b/c of the error I only have “X” shares that I can sell.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

xzhou wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:25 pm Why don't Vanguard just get out of this retail brokerage business so that they can focus on managing funds? How much profit will they give up by ceasing all the consumer-facing operations?
Ain't none.

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Bama12
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Bama12 »

9liner wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:57 am
Bama12 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:39 am I have been with Vanguard for 27 years.

Just open 4 accounts with Fidelity. Plan on keeping my old money in Vanguard but all new money will go to Fidelity.
What does this accomplish if you’re not moving your money currently at VG to Fidelity? You would still have to deal with VG customer service and their web interface. If anything, doesn’t this complicate things?

I’ve never had an issue with VG and, quite frankly was wholly unimpressed by Fidelity’s web interface. Very cluttered and difficult to navigate (maybe I’m just a creature of habit). Yes, the 24-hour customer service is nice, but I’ve never found the need to contact my brokerage house outside of normal business hours.
It does a lot! All of my new money will be at Fidelity, money that I will not teach for years will be at Vanguard. If I don't teach it, I will not need VG for anything.
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by jebmke »

My personal opinion is that one should not rely solely on the custodian to maintain the cost basis. This is the only thing I use Quicken (2012) for. On my list to do is to get this off Quicken but for now, it works. At the end of the day, I am the one who signs the tax return, not Vanguard.

I would also add that I don't rely on their subsystems or mine to automatically agree. That is what the reconciliation process is designed for. I always reconcile my statement against confirmations and after the first of the year, I reconcile tax docs (1099, W2 ....) with any financial statements (December, YTD, Pay stub etc). Nobody would run a business ledger without reconciling their books - why should I?
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lexor
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by lexor »

jebmke wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:00 pm My personal opinion is that one should not rely solely on the custodian to maintain the cost basis. This is the only thing I use Quicken (2012) for. On my list to do is to get this off Quicken but for now, it works. At the end of the day, I am the one who signs the tax return, not Vanguard.

I would also add that I don't rely on their subsystems or mine to automatically agree. That is what the reconciliation process is designed for. I always reconcile my statement against confirmations and after the first of the year, I reconcile tax docs (1099, W2 ....) with any financial statements (December, YTD, Pay stub etc). Nobody would run a business ledger without reconciling their books - why should I?
That's not realistic. Most people aren't going to do that and that's what software is for anyway. The custodian should do it and they should be held responsible for it. At least that's a forward thinking attitude towards it.

Edit: by the way this isn't a hard problem and the custodian should have no problem doing it with 0 mistakes.
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CoastalWinds
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

lexor wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:04 pm
That's not realistic. Most people aren't going to do that and that's what software is for anyway. The custodian should do it and they should be held responsible for it. At least that's a forward thinking attitude towards it.

Edit: by the way this isn't a hard problem and the custodian should have no problem doing it with 0 mistakes.
+100. This is the responsibility of the custodian, and it isn’t calculus. It isn’t even algebra.
Normchad
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Normchad »

Out of curiosity, if I wanted to switch from VG to Fidelity, how would I actually do it?

I have after tax accounts at VG, holding mostly VTSAX, VTI, and BND.

How do you actually move that stuff without creating a taxable event?
bondsr4me
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by bondsr4me »

easy.

open account at Fidelity.

tell Fidelity to fund your account by doing an in-kind transfer from Vanguard to Fidelity.

this is not a taxable event.

very easy to do.
jebmke
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by jebmke »

lexor wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:04 pm That's not realistic. Most people aren't going to do that and that's what software is for anyway. The custodian should do it and they should be held responsible for it. A
of course they should do it. And boats should not sink but I wear a life-jacket anyway. The IRS will never accept an answer that the custodian ate my homework.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
jebmke
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by jebmke »

The IRS guidelines are inconsistent with due process. You are guilty until proven innocent.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
Trader Joe
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Trader Joe »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:54 am
Trader Joe wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:21 am

As a long-term Vanguard customer with no issues in decades, I am sticking with Vanguard.

In your situation, shouldn't your individual action item be to find a different financial entity that suits your needs and concerns? Let us know who you go with.
My “needs” are that when I purchase shares of a Vanguard mutual fund through their website, that they accurately record the correct NAV and cost basis. Call me needy.

Let us know when (not if) it happens to you.
Again, we look forward to hearing your corrective action in response to your own specific issue.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

jebmke wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:48 pm The IRS guidelines are inconsistent with due process. You are guilty until proven innocent.
I'm not arguing with you about universal fairness of IRS and tax court rulings.

I'm pointing out it is in criminal matters the accused is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. Only then is when one can be sentenced to prison, even if the charge was tax related, like fraud.

I believe you're referring to civil matters, in most of which it only takes a preponderance of the evidence, that is to say 51% of the evidence is against you, and 49% is for you, for one to be found civilly liable. There's no prison, or even probation, at stake, unless one willfully violates the court's order.

I'm not sure I like each and every aspect of our civil law system, but it's lower intensity than criminal justice, and in both cases, to improve the system, I get to contact my legislative representatives, to vote, and if necessary to run for office myself.

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Cubicle
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Cubicle »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:09 pmThe next step is that I now have to cross-check every single transaction, because I don’t know if/when these will re-occur. Between 5 accounts, frequent purchases, DIV reinvestments, etc., that would be extremely frequent cross-checking. I’m very busy and don’t have time for this.
You need to move all your assets, "in-kind", to another custodian. Because Vanguard lost your trust, you shouldn't have to take your time (that you don't have) to cross & double check everything. Luckily in-kind transfer do exist & are common. Many forum members are very happy with Fidelity & Schwab. Why is putting up with Vanguard even an option for you at this point? Who knows how many other discrepancies you actually missed? Since you are the one signing your tax forms, is it worth any amount of risk?
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Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed several off-topic posts, the discussion is getting contentious.

This thread is locked for a cool-down period. CoastalWinds - PM me (or a moderator) when you have a resolution and we'll unlock the thread.
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