Vanguard is worrying me

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Topic Author
CoastalWinds
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

I’ve lost confidence in Vanguard’s technical systems. Having heard the horror stories of others having their cost basis incorrectly updated when they converted their mutual fund account to a brokerage account, I thought I’d check my basis history. And ... I’m finding some nonsensical data. For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 77.16 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 77.18. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?

So now I get to call them and deal with their wonderful customer service.

Here’s the actionable part: keep your own records and check their system often.

Here it is 2020. Flying cars? No. We can’t even keep an accurate database.
Last edited by CoastalWinds on Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
retired@50
Posts: 3649
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:36 pm
Location: Living in the U.S.A.

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by retired@50 »

I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
User avatar
whodidntante
Posts: 9282
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:11 pm
Location: outside the echo chamber

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by whodidntante »

The big V is going to redesign its website in 2020. Terrifying, isn't it? Sleep well. :twisted:
TropikThunder
Posts: 2601
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:41 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by TropikThunder »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:01 am The big V is going to redesign its website in 2020. Terrifying, isn't it? Sleep well. :twisted:
You can have new, or improved. Not both. :P
Trader Joe
Posts: 2038
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:38 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Trader Joe »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am I’ve lost confidence in Vanguard’s technical systems. Having heard the horror stories of others having their cost basis incorrectly updated when they converted their mutual fund account to a brokerage account, I thought I’d check my basis history. And ... I’m finding some nonsensical data. For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?

So now I get to call them and deal with their wonderful customer service.

Here’s the actionable part: keep your own records and check their system often.

Here it is 2020. Flying cars? No. We can’t even keep an accurate database.
As a long-term Vanguard customer with no issues in decades, I am sticking with Vanguard.

In your situation, shouldn't your individual action item be to find a different financial entity that suits your needs and concerns? Let us know who you go with.
lexor
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by lexor »

Trader Joe wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:21 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am I’ve lost confidence in Vanguard’s technical systems. Having heard the horror stories of others having their cost basis incorrectly updated when they converted their mutual fund account to a brokerage account, I thought I’d check my basis history. And ... I’m finding some nonsensical data. For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?

So now I get to call them and deal with their wonderful customer service.

Here’s the actionable part: keep your own records and check their system often.

Here it is 2020. Flying cars? No. We can’t even keep an accurate database.
As a long-term Vanguard customer with no issues in decades, I am sticking with Vanguard.

In your situation, shouldn't your individual action item be to find a different financial entity that suits your needs and concerns? Let us know who you go with.
Isn't Fidelity known for having a better website than Vanguard? Don't get me wrong, Vanguard started a revolution, but that was a long, long time ago...and it doesn't mean they have the best tech either. Granted I haven't had issues, but I do find their customer service sub par.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle
MotoTrojan
Posts: 10708
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by MotoTrojan »

lexor wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:34 am
Trader Joe wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:21 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am I’ve lost confidence in Vanguard’s technical systems. Having heard the horror stories of others having their cost basis incorrectly updated when they converted their mutual fund account to a brokerage account, I thought I’d check my basis history. And ... I’m finding some nonsensical data. For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?

So now I get to call them and deal with their wonderful customer service.

Here’s the actionable part: keep your own records and check their system often.

Here it is 2020. Flying cars? No. We can’t even keep an accurate database.
As a long-term Vanguard customer with no issues in decades, I am sticking with Vanguard.

In your situation, shouldn't your individual action item be to find a different financial entity that suits your needs and concerns? Let us know who you go with.
Isn't Fidelity known for having a better website than Vanguard? Don't get me wrong, Vanguard started a revolution, but that was a long, long time ago...and it doesn't mean they have the best tech either. Granted I haven't had issues, but I do find their customer service sub par.
I love Fidelity. Online chat for customer service should be standard these days.
AlphaLess
Posts: 2706
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:38 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by AlphaLess »

TropikThunder wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:07 am
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:01 am The big V is going to redesign its website in 2020. Terrifying, isn't it? Sleep well. :twisted:
You can have new, or improved. Not both. :P
Isn't it sad?

Old and improved.
New and deproved.
"A Republic, if you can keep it". Benjamin Franklin. 1787. | Party affiliation: Vanguard. Religion: low-cost investing.
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:18 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

So switch to Fidelity. Or Schwab. You can use Vanguard ETFs at both with no commission now, if you like the funds. What's the issue?
PJW
Bama12
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:48 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Bama12 »

I have been with Vanguard for 27 years.

Just open 4 accounts with Fidelity. Plan on keeping my old money in Vanguard but all new money will go to Fidelity.
lexor
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by lexor »

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:38 am So switch to Fidelity. Or Schwab. You can use Vanguard ETFs at both with no commission now, if you like the funds. What's the issue?
PJW
Where did he say he liked the funds? Regardless, there's no reason to buy Vanguard ETFs. You're just going to pay higher fees for an essentially identical product.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle
User avatar
Stinky
Posts: 5888
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:38 am
Location: Sweet Home Alabama

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Stinky »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?
retired@50 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 am I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?
Is it possible that this is "user error"? Rather than Vanguard error?
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 22187
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by abuss368 »

I have never had any customer services issues with Vanguard when sending a message on the website or calling.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
User avatar
Wiggums
Posts: 2960
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Wiggums »

Stinky wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:22 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?
retired@50 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 am I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?
Is it possible that this is "user error"? Rather than Vanguard error?
+1

I have accounts at more than one broker. The grass is not greener on the other side. A lot of changes to the industry in 30 years.
H-Town
Posts: 2920
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by H-Town »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am I’ve lost confidence in Vanguard’s technical systems. Having heard the horror stories of others having their cost basis incorrectly updated when they converted their mutual fund account to a brokerage account, I thought I’d check my basis history. And ... I’m finding some nonsensical data. For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?

So now I get to call them and deal with their wonderful customer service.

Here’s the actionable part: keep your own records and check their system often.

Here it is 2020. Flying cars? No. We can’t even keep an accurate database.
I don't even remember when the last time VTSAX was sold at $11.18. If true, your share is worth more than 7 times the original price.

Back to your concern. I keep assets at multiple brokerage houses and I never blindly trust their records keeping. I independently keep track of cost basis, records of transactions. It's pretty simple. Download transaction confirmation in PDF file, verify the math, enter the amounts in a spreadsheet. If I paid thousands of dollars for paper assets, I would be very sure that all the records are accurate.

Trust but verify. If you didn't keep track of your own records, what a phone call to customer service would help you?
User avatar
Wiggums
Posts: 2960
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Wiggums »

H-Town wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:19 am Trust but verify. If you didn't keep track of your own records, what a phone call to customer service would help you?
Good advice.

Just like you should review your credit card transactions. No difference.
Xrayman69
Posts: 642
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:52 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Xrayman69 »

H-Town wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:19 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am I’ve lost confidence in Vanguard’s technical systems. Having heard the horror stories of others having their cost basis incorrectly updated when they converted their mutual fund account to a brokerage account, I thought I’d check my basis history. And ... I’m finding some nonsensical data. For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?

So now I get to call them and deal with their wonderful customer service.

Here’s the actionable part: keep your own records and check their system often.

Here it is 2020. Flying cars? No. We can’t even keep an accurate database.
I don't even remember when the last time VTSAX was sold at $11.18. If true, your share is worth more than 7 times the original price.

Back to your concern. I keep assets at multiple brokerage houses and I never blindly trust their records keeping. I independently keep track of cost basis, records of transactions. It's pretty simple. Download transaction confirmation in PDF file, verify the math, enter the amounts in a spreadsheet. If I paid thousands of dollars for paper assets, I would be very sure that all the records are accurate.

Trust but verify. If you didn't keep track of your own records, what a phone call to customer service would help you?
Reputation is probably one of the greatest assets a financial company has. If any later financial institution like VG has an error that translates across billions of transactions and dollars then they are really at risk both from a reputation standpoint and litigation. The ability for the individual to easily check and cross reference their records likely preculudes a large institution like VG or others from even considering intentional shenanigans. Incompetence is a totally different story. Thus the need to remain on top of it yourself as well. Completely Agree.
bondsr4me
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:08 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by bondsr4me »

Wiggums wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:22 am
H-Town wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:19 am Trust but verify. If you didn't keep track of your own records, what a phone call to customer service would help you?
Good advice.

Just like you should review your credit card transactions. No difference.
+1 on both.
IMHO, it's foolish to not monitor financial information on an ongoing basis.
In this age of hacking and financial misdeeds, we all need to know what is going on in our financial lives.
To repeat...Trust but verify.
Nyc10036
Posts: 571
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Nyc10036 »

lexor wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:34 am Isn't Fidelity known for having a better website than Vanguard? Don't get me wrong, Vanguard started a revolution, but that was a long, long time ago...and it doesn't mean they have the best tech either. Granted I haven't had issues, but I do find their customer service sub par.
I have accounts with both.

I find Fidelity's website more confusing to navigate.
Perhaps it is the way my brain is wired.

Fidelity's statements are also very disjointed.
I don't like them.
BuddyJet
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:56 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by BuddyJet »

Nyc10036 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:46 am
lexor wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:34 am Isn't Fidelity known for having a better website than Vanguard? Don't get me wrong, Vanguard started a revolution, but that was a long, long time ago...and it doesn't mean they have the best tech either. Granted I haven't had issues, but I do find their customer service sub par.
I have accounts with both.

I find Fidelity's website more confusing to navigate.
Perhaps it is the way my brain is wired.

Fidelity's statements are also very disjointed.
I don't like them.
My preference runs the other way. Like the ford vs Chevy decision, try them both and go with the one that gives a better fit or use several for different things.

When I moved to self managed, I opened accounts at Fido, TDA, VG, ML, Citi and E*Trade. Fido fits me best for the long haul but VG offered the ability to buy the funds I wanted at NAV and then convert to ETF.
People say nothing is impossible. I do nothing all day.
latak215
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:41 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by latak215 »

My vote is still for VG. I hope their upcoming web improvements will reduce the need to call customer svc to near zero
latak215
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:41 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by latak215 »

My vote is still for VG. I hope their upcoming web improvements will reduce the need to call customer svc to near zero
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:18 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

lexor wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:56 am
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:38 am So switch to Fidelity. Or Schwab. You can use Vanguard ETFs at both with no commission now, if you like the funds. What's the issue?
PJW
Where did he say he liked the funds? Regardless, there's no reason to buy Vanguard ETFs. You're just going to pay higher fees for an essentially identical product.
OP didn't say that. It's why I was careful to use the word if.

PJW
User avatar
Doom&Gloom
Posts: 3625
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:36 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Doom&Gloom »

I recently had to call Fidelity for (I think) the second time in ~20 years with them. The reason? I received an error message on the website asking me to call. The result? "It is a glitch on the website. Don't worry about it."

I think I have only had to call Vanguard once. I don't recall calling Schwab at all.

Stuff happens sometimes. When/if one of these three brokerages (or their websites) becomes unacceptable to me, I will move. At the present time, I don't have any strong preferences for one over the other two.

Disclaimer: I am a pretty low-maintenance customer.
lexor
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by lexor »

Doom&Gloom wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:33 am I recently had to call Fidelity for (I think) the second time in ~20 years with them. The reason? I received an error message on the website asking me to call. The result? "It is a glitch on the website. Don't worry about it."

I think I have only had to call Vanguard once. I don't recall calling Schwab at all.

Stuff happens sometimes. When/if one of these three brokerages (or their websites) becomes unacceptable to me, I will move. At the present time, I don't have any strong preferences for one over the other two.

Disclaimer: I am a pretty low-maintenance customer.
Why do you use so many brokers? I don't like that many companies having my SSN but I guess if there were a good reason...
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle
Topic Author
CoastalWinds
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

OP here. I mis-typed 11 instead of 77.

Prices shown for the same date on adjacent lines in the ledger were 77.18 and 77.16.

I like low costs as much as the next person, but must it come at the expense of them not being able to do simple tracking? Would folks be OK if their bank didn’t charge fees but transposed numbers on their deposits?

Continue to defend these sorts of errors at your own risk and peril.
Topic Author
CoastalWinds
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

Trader Joe wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:21 am

As a long-term Vanguard customer with no issues in decades, I am sticking with Vanguard.

In your situation, shouldn't your individual action item be to find a different financial entity that suits your needs and concerns? Let us know who you go with.
My “needs” are that when I purchase shares of a Vanguard mutual fund through their website, that they accurately record the correct NAV and cost basis. Call me needy.

Let us know when (not if) it happens to you.
User avatar
Cubicle
Posts: 941
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:43 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Cubicle »

I've been using Vanguard.com since 2015 & haven't had any problems on the site it calling in.

I find Fidelity's website to be very "gimmicky". Too many moving parts.

But I preferred the simpler, more plain Vanguard site from when I first started.
"Oh look another bajillion point declin-Ooooh!!! A coupon for pizza!!!!" <--- This is what everyone's IPS should be. ✓✓✓
9liner
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:03 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by 9liner »

Bama12 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:39 am I have been with Vanguard for 27 years.

Just open 4 accounts with Fidelity. Plan on keeping my old money in Vanguard but all new money will go to Fidelity.
What does this accomplish if you’re not moving your money currently at VG to Fidelity? You would still have to deal with VG customer service and their web interface. If anything, doesn’t this complicate things?

I’ve never had an issue with VG and, quite frankly was wholly unimpressed by Fidelity’s web interface. Very cluttered and difficult to navigate (maybe I’m just a creature of habit). Yes, the 24-hour customer service is nice, but I’ve never found the need to contact my brokerage house outside of normal business hours.
User avatar
Cubicle
Posts: 941
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:43 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Cubicle »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:54 am
Trader Joe wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:21 am

As a long-term Vanguard customer with no issues in decades, I am sticking with Vanguard.

In your situation, shouldn't your individual action item be to find a different financial entity that suits your needs and concerns? Let us know who you go with.
My “needs” are that when I purchase shares of a Vanguard mutual fund through their website, that they accurately record the correct NAV and cost basis. Call me needy.

Let us know when (not if) it happens to you.
Do you think the solution is to cross/double check the transaction details? Or do you need to switch to a different custodian? I understand you're upset, what do you think is the next step you need to do so you don't have this problem again?

I can't imagine how upset you are because this hasn't happened to me. So I'm trying to understand.
"Oh look another bajillion point declin-Ooooh!!! A coupon for pizza!!!!" <--- This is what everyone's IPS should be. ✓✓✓
User avatar
Rob5TCP
Posts: 3522
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:34 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Rob5TCP »

Stinky wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:22 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?
retired@50 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 am I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?
Is it possible that this is "user error"? Rather than Vanguard error?
+1
Topic Author
CoastalWinds
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

Cubicle wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:58 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:54 am
Trader Joe wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:21 am

As a long-term Vanguard customer with no issues in decades, I am sticking with Vanguard.

In your situation, shouldn't your individual action item be to find a different financial entity that suits your needs and concerns? Let us know who you go with.
My “needs” are that when I purchase shares of a Vanguard mutual fund through their website, that they accurately record the correct NAV and cost basis. Call me needy.

Let us know when (not if) it happens to you.
Do you think the solution is to cross/double check the transaction details? Or do you need to switch to a different custodian? I understand you're upset, what do you think is the next step you need to do so you don't have this problem again?

I can't imagine how upset you are because this hasn't happened to me. So I'm trying to understand.
The next step is that I now have to cross-check every single transaction, because I don’t know if/when these will re-occur. Between 5 accounts, frequent purchases, DIV reinvestments, etc., that would be extremely frequent cross-checking. I’m very busy and don’t have time for this.

Here’s a better question: in this day and age, why would a bank/brokerage not be able to accurately record a computer-initiated transaction?
Topic Author
CoastalWinds
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

Rob5TCP wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:07 pm
Stinky wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:22 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?
retired@50 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 am I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?
Is it possible that this is "user error"? Rather than Vanguard error?
+1
What’s this supposed to mean? There’s no user error.
User avatar
Wiggums
Posts: 2960
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Wiggums »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am I’ve lost confidence in Vanguard’s technical systems. Having heard the horror stories of others having their cost basis incorrectly updated when they converted their mutual fund account to a brokerage account, I thought I’d check my basis history. And ... I’m finding some nonsensical data. For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 77.16 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 77.18. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?

So now I get to call them and deal with their wonderful customer service.

Here’s the actionable part: keep your own records and check their system often.

Here it is 2020. Flying cars? No. We can’t even keep an accurate database.
What did Vanguard say when you called them? Unfortunately, this is not something that a forum member can help you resolve.

I’ve been with Fidelity for 34 years and Vanguard for at least 25 years. I always check my transactions and I have never seen this particular issue before. But that doesn’t mean you are wrong.

I have a trading error at Fidelity that took a few days for the money to land back in my account. I’ve broken trading rules that Fidelity notified me of. Unfortunately, mistakes happen.

Good luck to you...
Last edited by Wiggums on Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
HomeStretch
Posts: 5176
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by HomeStretch »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am So now I get to call them and deal with their wonderful customer service.

Here’s the actionable part: keep your own records and check their system often.
Please update after your call to Vanguard CS.

Agree on the actionable part. I always keep my own records and verify my account info maintained by financial institutions.
dbr
Posts: 33842
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:50 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by dbr »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:10 pm
Rob5TCP wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:07 pm
Stinky wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:22 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?
retired@50 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 am I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?
Is it possible that this is "user error"? Rather than Vanguard error?
+1
What’s this supposed to mean? There’s no user error.
The user error was your typo which is now fixed.

I don't do business with Vanguard, but I agree one should not be seeing a bizarre discrepancy like that and one should not be put in the position to have to call and ask. Keeping your own records does not help because where do you get the data for the correct transaction. I guess the answer is the posted closing NAV. Also, did Vanguard send you a separate purchase confirmation as such? What does it show? When I keep transaction records I go off the purchase/sale confirmation.
User avatar
goingup
Posts: 3923
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:02 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by goingup »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:10 pm
Rob5TCP wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:07 pm
Stinky wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:22 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?
retired@50 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 am I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?
Is it possible that this is "user error"? Rather than Vanguard error?
+1
What’s this supposed to mean? There’s no user error.
Coastal Winds, no disrespect, but it is an odd error on Vanguard's part. The cost basis problems that people mention are usually when shares are being transferred "in" from another brokerage, or "out" to another brokerage. I've also heard of cost basis problems happening when investors have specified selling SPEC ID shares but the system reverted to Average Share cost basis.

Muffing the EOD NAV would be an uncommon thing, at any brokerage. That's why forum readers might be dubious. I know it's maddening (even galling) to be doubted about something, but your experience is so uncommon (I think...I hope) that it incites a bit of skepticism.

Close the loop here once you talk to Vanguard and get the explanation/remedy.
typical.investor
Posts: 2324
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by typical.investor »

dbr wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:30 pm What does it show? When I keep transaction records I go off the purchase/sale confirmation.
Transactions records at Vanguard have been wrong for me in the past which is why I am at Schwab now.

In any case, is there even an error here?

CostalWinds, how much did you invest and how many shares did you get?

I wonder if perhaps you received some shares at $.02 less. Remember, Vanguard has a dual class structure and I wonder if that possibly didn’t affect things.

Are you sure you paid 77.18 for the shares Vanguard lists at 77.16. Price improvement is not usually frowned upon. I understand you were buying mutual funds, but the dual class structure makes me wonder how their settlement process actually works. You get the tax benefit of an ETF, so why not price improvement.
User avatar
puc_ytpme
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:04 pm
Location: USA

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by puc_ytpme »

OP,

No user error, I noticed the same thing for Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral(VTIAX)

Bought on the day dividends were distributed Two separate lots(12-20-19)

One shows the actual closing NAV @ $29.69 & the other @ $29.83

I will check on this in the a.m.
No person ever steps in the same river twice, for it’s not the same river & they’re not the same person
User avatar
Stinky
Posts: 5888
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:38 am
Location: Sweet Home Alabama

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Stinky »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:10 pm
Rob5TCP wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:07 pm
Stinky wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:22 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?
retired@50 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 am I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?
Is it possible that this is "user error"? Rather than Vanguard error?
+1
What’s this supposed to mean? There’s no user error.
You’ve now fixed your original typo. That was the “user error”.

I’m interested to hear what the story is when you talk to Vanguard.
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:18 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

typical.investor wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:52 pm ...
Are you sure you paid 77.18 for the shares Vanguard lists at 77.16. Price improvement is not usually frowned upon. I understand you were buying mutual funds, but the dual class structure makes me wonder how their settlement process actually works. You get the tax benefit of an ETF, so why not price improvement.
Because, in the US at least, there's a tight legal definition of Net Asset Value. There can't be price improvement. One could argue that's a reason to use ETFs instead, where it is legal, but the Authorized Participant(s) are the only ones who could access it on the underlying shares, and anyway they're large institutions themselves. They improve their own prices, so to speak.

PJW
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 11327
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by TomatoTomahto »

CoastalWind wrote:Here’s a better question: in this day and age, why would a bank/brokerage not be able to accurately record a computer-initiated transaction?
My wife and I have many many years working in Financial Services technology, at well respected institutions you’ve heard of (not Vanguard). You’d be surprised at how the sausage is made.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
mpsz
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by mpsz »

I've never had a major issue on Vanguard's website, but I have seen some concerning information displayed that was automatically fixed on the next business day.

These days, I have spread out my holdings to Schwab and Fidelity. I don't like having all of my eggs in one basket anymore, and it's not that much work to check an additional site when I update my own spreadsheet each month. Both websites are phenomenal and Vanguard's site is decades behind -- I remember some nonsense like Vanguard not letting you to change dividend reinvestment settings unless the market was open?

I still trust Vanguard funds, so I use their ETFs wherever I can now that more brokerages have $0 commission. I just don't trust Vanguard Brokerage at all.
Topic Author
CoastalWinds
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

goingup wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:41 pm
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:10 pm
Rob5TCP wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:07 pm
Stinky wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:22 am
CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 11.18 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 11.16. On the same date. Don’t you hate it when a given fund closes at 2 different prices?
retired@50 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 am I show that VTSAX closed at $77.18 on November 15, 2019. Any chance you purchased 11.XX shares?
Is it possible that this is "user error"? Rather than Vanguard error?
+1
What’s this supposed to mean? There’s no user error.
Coastal Winds, no disrespect, but it is an odd error on Vanguard's part. The cost basis problems that people mention are usually when shares are being transferred "in" from another brokerage, or "out" to another brokerage. I've also heard of cost basis problems happening when investors have specified selling SPEC ID shares but the system reverted to Average Share cost basis.

Muffing the EOD NAV would be an uncommon thing, at any brokerage. That's why forum readers might be dubious. I know it's maddening (even galling) to be doubted about something, but your experience is so uncommon (I think...I hope) that it incites a bit of skepticism.

Close the loop here once you talk to Vanguard and get the explanation/remedy.
I will call them in the am, since they’re closed on weekends. And yes, it seems like an extremely odd (and unacceptable) error, but it is what it is.
AlphaLess
Posts: 2706
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:38 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by AlphaLess »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:09 pm Here’s a better question: in this day and age, why would a bank/brokerage not be able to accurately record a computer-initiated transaction?
That is a very good question. I would like to know what the root cause is.
"A Republic, if you can keep it". Benjamin Franklin. 1787. | Party affiliation: Vanguard. Religion: low-cost investing.
mouses
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:24 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by mouses »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:01 am The big V is going to redesign its website in 2020. Terrifying, isn't it? Sleep well. :twisted:
I suppose this means they're going to design it thinking everyone reads it on a smart phone, so those of us with laptops will think we're reading a kindergarten text.
sycamore
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by sycamore »

puc_ytpme wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:03 pm OP,

No user error, I noticed the same thing for Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral(VTIAX)

Bought on the day dividends were distributed Two separate lots(12-20-19)

One shows the actual closing NAV @ $29.69 & the other @ $29.83

I will check on this in the a.m.
puc_ytpme, thank you in advance for following up on this; there's obvious interest here on how it turns out.

If don't mind, where specifically did you notice the discrepancy? Was it on the "transactions" page? On the official trade confirmations? On the "closed orders" page? On the monthly statement? Just curious. I imagine having that info might be helpful to others here so they can see if the problem happened in the same way. Also helpful to VG (yeah they should be able to figure it out but as a software developer I found it very helpful to know the symptoms as the user experienced it).
xzhou
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 1:14 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by xzhou »

Why don't Vanguard just get out of this retail brokerage business so that they can focus on managing funds? How much profit will they give up by ceasing all the consumer-facing operations?
cas
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:41 am

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by cas »

CoastalWinds wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 am For example, on Nov 15, I made 2 purchases of VTSAX. I see both lines in the ledger for that date. But, one line shows a purchase NAV of 77.16 and the other shows a purchase NAV of 77.18. On the same date.
puc_ytpme wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:03 pm I noticed the same thing for Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral(VTIAX)

Bought on the day dividends were distributed Two separate lots(12-20-19)

One shows the actual closing NAV @ $29.69 & the other @ $29.83
I've done a lot of tracking of cost basis for multiple lots of individual stocks for elderly relatives who accumulated their portfolios before mutual funds were a common or affordable product.

Trying to track cost basis by cost/share through splits/mergers/spin-offs/cash-in-lieu-of-partial-share is ... crazy making. Tracking by total cost basis-per-lot is much less fraught with peril. Different allowable accounting assumptions about what to do with partial shares that are born during corporate actions is one of the big items that lead to very different per share results.

On the face of it, you have a different situation than a corporate action involving a individual stock, but ...nevertheless... can you confirm some things for me?
  • Is this the case for both of you?

    You bought "2 lots" of a mutual fund (not ETF) in the same account in the same day, either because you entered two different orders at different times during the day or because you entered an order and there was also a dividend reinvestment that day.

    In other words, you are *not* describing a situation where you are seeing a different purchase price per share on the same day between, for example, your taxable account and your Roth IRA.
  • Where are you seeing the price/share for the 2 lots? The Cost Basis page with specific_ID accounting chosen?
  • If you add up the total cost basis for those two lots bought in the same account in the same day, does it add up to the total you expect? (e.g. you had a purchase of $500 and a dividend reinvestment of 46.02, does the total cost basis for the 2 lots add up to $546.02?
  • Now add up the total # of shares purchased in those 2 lots. Divide your total-cost-basis-for-all-lots-bought-in-the-same-account-in-the-same-day by the total-shares-bought-in-the-same-account-the-same-day. Does the resulting price/share equal the correct NAV? (allowing for some round-off imprecision.)
  • By any chance, does one of the lots show a purchase of an even number of shares (AA.000), while the other lot has fractional shares associated with it (XX.YYY)? Or do both lots have fractional shares associated with them?
The line of thought I'm pursuing is this:

Given the way that mutual funds work, I'm wondering if two orders scheduled for the same mutual fund in the same account for the same day are actually aggregated together for a single transaction to occur after market close. So, behind the scenes, some single XX.YYY number of shares was purchased. But then some accounting policy about how to allocate that 0.YYY partial share among the two "sub lots" is causing some weirdness in the price/share between the 2 sub-lots. (But no total cost basis (for that account for that day) has erroneously been created or destroyed.)
Topic Author
CoastalWinds
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Re: Vanguard is worrying me

Post by CoastalWinds »

To previous poster:

1. Same account, same day, same fund. Two separate purchase transactions of the same fund.
2. On the Cost Basis tab.
3. Total dollar amount adds correctly.
4. Calculated NAV does not equal total
Cost basis divided by total shares. Neither share amount ends in .000. The shares calculated from the incorrect NAV were ... incorrect. Not a rounding error either.
Last edited by CoastalWinds on Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Locked